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JESUS THE MEDIATOR OF THE NEW TESTAMENT

Bibleguy,
As I'm reading, got a question for you? What is the Everlasting Covenant to you?

Also, in your opinion, has the Ceremonial, Sacrificial and Judicial Laws been done away with?
 
Bibleguy,
As I'm reading, got a question for you? What is the Everlasting Covenant to you?

Also, in your opinion, has the Ceremonial, Sacrificial and Judicial Laws been done away with?

Howdy!

There are multiple "everlasting covenant" instances in Scripture: Ge. 9; Ge. 17; Lev. 24; Nu. 18; Eze. 37; etc.

And, the ceremonial/sacrificial/Levitical laws are absolutely NOT done away with. Here's why: Is. 66; Mal. 3; Dt. 30:1-8; Jer. 33; Eze. 40-47; Zec. 14; etc. These are FUTURE prophecies which are NOT yet fulfilled.

And, very simply, there is NO Torah that is done away with. After all, Dt. 30:1-8 is yet FUTURE. And Dt. 30:8 promises that we will again obey 100% ALL Torah upon our return to the promised land in the future.

Hope this helps you understand the Biblical position I'm seeking to set before you...

regards....
 
Bibleguy,
What is Colossians 2:14 saying to you?

Hey there....thanks for asking.

Our transgressions incur a debt which Jesus took away (Col. 2:14).

Jesus took away our debt.

Did Jesus take away the Torah itself?

Of course not! Rather, Jesus inaugurated the New Covenant (Lk. 22:20) which entails TORAH to be written upon our hearts (Jer. 31:33; Heb. 8:10; 10:16).

Torah is to be written upon our hearts! Not canceled!

Plus, I've already shown that Jesus and Paul and Peter applied Torah to Christians. So let's not twist Col. 2:14 out of context, and let's not pretend that Paul was talking about canceling the Torah itself.

Do you oppose the Torah (Jer. 31:33) of which Jeremiah speaks?
 
I dont really understand this doesn't the Torah require circumcision? Genesis 17: 9-14 ???

BUt yet we know Paul told us that is not required

Hello!

Paul opposed adult-male-Gentile-convert circumcision because Torah does not command it for adult-male-Gentile-converts (1 Cor. 7:18-19).

Paul OBEYED Torah however (and even condoned an animal-sacrifice-laden vow to prove it, Ac. 21).

And, does Torah require INFANT male circumcision? Absolutely (Lev. 12:3; which comes from Ge. 17:12).

Did Paul oppose infant male circumcision? Of course not. After all, Paul obeyed Torah and taught others to do the same. So of course Paul did not oppose infant male circumcision to be done on the 8th day.

Hope this helps!

blessings
 
@bibleguy,
Are you on board with this scripture, and is this a manditory ritual even today under the New Covenant?

Gen 17:13 He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.
Gen 17:14 And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant.
 
@bibleguy,
Are you on board with this scripture, and is this a manditory ritual even today under the New Covenant?

Gen 17:13 He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.
Gen 17:14 And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant.

I think you misquoted Ge. 17:14.

Anyway, the ongoing (i.e., "throughout your generations") mark of Abrahamic Covenant circumcision is via INFANT circumcision (Ge. 17:12). That's the only place where we see "throughout your generations" as it pertains to Abrahamic circumcision.

Moses agrees, imposing an INFANT circumcision requirement (Lev. 12:3), but not an ongoing adult-male-Gentile-convert circumcision requirement.

Jesus agrees (Jn. 7:22) that Moses (Lev. 12:3) got this infant-circumcision practice from father Abraham (Ge. 17:12).

Paul never opposed this infant circumcision requirement.

Paul opposed adult-male-Gentile-convert circumcision (1 Cor. 7:18). Why? Because God does not command adult-male-Gentile-convert circumcision.

Keeping God's COMMANDS (1 Cor. 7:19) is what is required. And where are God's commands founds? Primarily in the written Torah of Moses (1 Ki. 2:3). Although, a few are found in Genesis, and some are in the Prophets and Psalms, etc.

And, I see no ongoing requirement of adult-male-gentile-convert circumcision in either Abrahamic Torah or in Mosaic Torah.

In fact, Ge. 17 does not even address the idea of religious converts. Again, that's why Paul opposes circumcision as a requirement for religious converts...because neither the Abrahamic Torah nor the Mosaic Torah require it.

Now, you ask: "Are you on board with this scripture, and is this a manditory ritual even today under the New Covenant?"

My response: Jeremiah passes TORAH directly into the New Covenant (Jer. 31:33). Torah requires INFANT circumcision (Lev. 12:3, which comes from Ge. 17:12). So yes, New Covenant Torah requires infant male circumcision on the 8th day.

The adult circumcision which occurred in Ge. 17 is evidently not an ongoing requirement, but was a one-time initial requirement (fulfilled in Ge. 17:23-27).

Agreed?

(as always, please test everything I say...to make sure I haven't missed something...thanks!)
 
Bibleguy,
I didn't misquote the scripture I presented, I used it to ask a question.. You were saying we must keep the Law of Moses. Circumsion was part of the Law of Abraham and the Law of Moses. Circumcision had to be kept of the people in their generation. It started with Abraham and was also required in the Mosaic Law. I asked, "are New Covenanat believer to keep them." You answered the question, but I was just addressing what you said, "I misquoted the verse."

Gen 17:9 And God said unto Abraham, Thou shall keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee "in their generations."

Gen 17:10 This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised.

Gen 17:11 And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you.
 
Bibleguy,
I didn't misquote the scripture I presented, I used it to ask a question.. You were saying we must keep the Law of Moses. Circumsion was part of the Law of Abraham and the Law of Moses. Circumcision had to be kept of the people in their generation. It started with Abraham and was also required in the Mosaic Law. I asked, "are New Covenanat believer to keep them." You answered the question, but I was just addressing what you said, "I misquoted the verse."

Gen 17:9 And God said unto Abraham, Thou shall keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee "in their generations."

Gen 17:10 This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised.

Gen 17:11 And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you.

Hey there! Sorry about that confusion....some translations translate "zachar" as "man", others as "man child", so we were using different translations....I didn't realize you were using a different translation of "zachar" (H2145).

So, you did not misquote...rather, we were simply using different translations....now I see that.
 
Bibleguy,
You are teaching justification of the law, but I'm going to respond to this post in my reply to your other post/reply in the book you wrote :smile:

Paul said that those who obey the law will be justified (Rom. 2:13).
 
@bibleguy,

Yes, those who obey the Law of Christ, not the Law of Moses.

The Law of Moses is the First Covenant. The Law of Christ is the Second Covenant. Believers are dead to the First Covenant.

Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

The law of sin and death, is the Mosaic Law.
 
@bibleguy,

Yes, those who obey the Law of Christ, not the Law of Moses.

The Law of Moses is the First Covenant. The Law of Christ is the Second Covenant. Believers are dead to the First Covenant.

Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

The law of sin and death, is the Mosaic Law.
You'll need to prove that believers are dead to the Old Covenant
 
@Bendito,

This is my proof:
Rom 7:1
Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he lives?

Rom 7:2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he lives; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.

Rom 7:3 So then if, while her husband lives, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.

Rom 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, you also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

Rom 7:5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death. (sin)

Rom 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter

Heb 10:9 Then said Jesus, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. "He taketh away the first," that he may establish the second.

Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
Heb 8:8
For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
Heb 8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.




.
 
@Bendito,

This is my proof:
Rom 7:1
Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he lives?

Rom 7:2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he lives; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.

Rom 7:3 So then if, while her husband lives, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.

Rom 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, you also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

Rom 7:5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death. (sin)

Rom 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter

Heb 10:9 Then said Jesus, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. "He taketh away the first," that he may establish the second.

Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
Heb 8:8
For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
Heb 8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
So you're saying that, because the Old Covenant has no authority over you, that you have nothing to do with it? Wrong. Jesus gave us two laws to live by. Matthew 22:36-40 (CJB)

36 “Rabbi, which of the mitzvot in the Torah is the most important?” 37 He told him, “‘You are to love Adonai your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength.’[a] 38 This is the greatest and most important mitzvah. 39 And a second is similar to it, ‘You are to love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 All of the Torah and the Prophets are dependent on these two mitzvot.
The entire Old Covenant is based on these two laws...Keep them and you keep the entire Old Covenant


.
 
@Bendito,
When scripture says, "Rom 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, “YOU ALSO ARE BECOME "DEAD TO THE LAW" by the body of Christ?”

What does "dead" mean to you?

If scripture says, “NOW WE ARE DELIVERED FROM THE LAW. BEING DEAD” where in we "WERE (past tense) HELD"

What is this saying? What does "delivered" mean to you?

I have never said a believer in Christ does not keep Mark 12:30 and 31. I've been saying all along, a believer is responsible to keep the law of love. I'm saying Love God with all you heart, soul, mind and strength. This is the covenant of Love; but we as believers do not keep Sacrificial Laws, Ceremonial Laws or Judicial Laws from the Mosaic Covenant. A believer is not righteous because of His works, a believer is righteous because of the works of Jesus Christ. Jesus fulfilled all the Law of the Mosaic Covenant.

If Israel kep the law for a time, they would be considered Righteous in God sight because of their works. This is because they kept the law. We as believer are not aligned with the law of Moses, but by faith believing that Jesus is Lord.

You are trying to blend the two covenants; the old and the new. Jesus made an end to the first covnant and established a second covenant; two different covenants. It's not the covenant received on Mount Sinai. Laws in a Covenant can be transgerable. The law of circumsion was under the Abrahamic Laws, but was transfered unto the Mosaic Covenant..

Question: What were the Mosaic Laws that were against man and contrary to man (Colossians 2:14)?

Those laws have been done away with in Christ.
 
@bibleguy,

Yes, those who obey the Law of Christ, not the Law of Moses.

The Law of Moses is the First Covenant. The Law of Christ is the Second Covenant. Believers are dead to the First Covenant.

Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

The law of sin and death, is the Mosaic Law.


The Law of Christ IS the Law of Moses (Mt. 4:4; 5:19; 7:21-23; 13:41-42; 22:37; 23:2-3,23,34; Lk. 10:25-28; Lk. 22:20 with Jer. 31:33).

The "second covenant" is called the NEW COVENANT (Jer. 31; Heb. 8), in which TORAH (Heb. "TORAH", Jer. 31:33) is to be written upon our hearts (Jer. 31:33; Heb. 8:10; 10:15-16) so that we obey it (Dt. 30:14 cited by Paul in Rom. 10:8).

Of COURSE the first (old ) Covenant is obsolete (Heb. 8:13). But! The SAME TORAH (Jer. 31:33; Heb. 8:10; 10:16) passes directly into the New Covenant.

Rom. 8:2 does not state that "the law of sin and death is the Mosaic law"....that's just your eisegesis there.

The law of sin and death is when we (who lack faith in God) incur a death penalty by virtue of our faithless and imperfect Torah-obedience (Rom. 6:23). Thus, faithless people sin, incur judgement, and die.

We are free from THAT law of sin and death, not from Torah!

Torah is the law of righteousness (Dt. 6:25) and life (Dt. 30:19) for us who obey.

And JESUS tells us to obey Dt. 6 (Mt. 22:37). And PAUL tells us to obey Dt. 30 (Rom. 10:8).

Plus, your anti-Torah interpretation of Romans 8:2 is immediately contradicted by Paul's statement just a few verses later, which leads us to reason as follows:

1. We are of the flesh, or of the Spirit (Rom. 8:5).
2. Those of the flesh disobey Torah (Rom. 8:7).
3. Those of the Spirit, by contrast, must OBEY Torah (from 1 and 2).

So, your incorrect presumption that "the law of sin and death is the Mosaic Law" is IMMEDIATELY contradicted by Paul's discussion in Romans 8:5-7.

That's a REALLY good reason to reject your interpretation of Romans 8.

Your contradictory position MUST be wrong. Why? Because Rom. 8:5-7 immediately contradicts your anti-Torah interpretation of Rom. 8:2.

blessings....
 
Bibleguy,
Thanks for your humility :smile: Check me if you find I'm not humbling myself.

Ok...check!

Humble people obey Torah (Nu. 12:3; Ps. 25:9; Zep. 2:3).

Your theology is anti-Torah.

Thus, your theology is not consistent with the manner in which Biblically humble (H6035, "anav") people behave.

Hope you don't mind me stepping on your toes (softly...with lots of love....of course. :-)
 
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