Jesus

[Hekuran]

But the crunch comes in v29 and 30:

The next day John saw Jesus coming towards him and said, Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world! This is the one I meant when I said, 'A man who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.'​

Try reading through from the beginning, and replacing every instance of "the Word" with "Jesus Christ".

In the beginning was Jesus Christ, and Jesus Christ was with God, and Jesus Christ was God. He was with God in the beginning...

 

[Hammmzzzaaa]

But the crunch comes in v29 and 30:

The next day John saw Jesus coming towards him and said, Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world! This is the one I meant when I said, 'A man who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.'
​

Try reading through from the beginning, and replacing every instance of "the Word" with "Jesus Christ".

In the beginning was Jesus Christ, and Jesus Christ was with God, and Jesus Christ was God. He was with God in the beginning...

ok hekuran let us discuss it

"in the beginning was jesus christ"
this verse tells us that the first thing which was present was Jesus
then
"and jesus christ was with God"
this verse contradicts the verse before, if sayas that jesus was with god, which means that god was already present, so how was "in the beginning was jesus christ"???
God was already present

then the third verse contradicts the second
it says "and jesus christ was god"
so how was jesus with God
the second verse indicated that we have 2 separate intitities, jesus and god, and they are both with each other

so how then it says that jesus was God??

hekuran, let us be be honest with each other, in my opinion this verse really has no logical meaning
let us imagine that u r not christian and u opened this book and u found that the first verse says
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

what will u understand from it?? in my opinion, u will understand nothing

 

[Chad]

ok hekuran let us discuss it

"in the beginning was jesus christ"
this verse tells us that the first thing which was present was Jesus
then
"and jesus christ was with God"
this verse contradicts the verse before, if sayas that jesus was with god, which means that god was already present, so how was "in the beginning was jesus christ"???
God was already present

then the third verse contradicts the second
it says "and jesus christ was god"
so how was jesus with God
the second verse indicated that we have 2 separate intitities, jesus and god, and they are both with each other

so how then it says that jesus was God??

hekuran, let us be be honest with each other, in my opinion this verse really has no logical meaning
let us imagine that u r not christian and u opened this book and u found that the first verse says
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

what will u understand from it?? in my opinion, u will understand nothing

Let's make one thing clear, very clear: there are no contradictions in the Bible

Jesus is the Son of GOD (aka "Word of GOD"). There is One GOD, made of 3 persons. That is the Father, Son, Holy Spirit. This is not contradicting the verses you gave.

John 1:14
The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

John 5:36-38

<sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV-26247">36</sup> “I have testimony weightier than that of John. For the works that the Father has given me to finish—the very works that I am doing—testify that the Father has sent me. <sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV-26248">37</sup> And the Father who sent me has himself testified concerning me. You have never heard his voice nor seen his form, <sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV-26249">38</sup> nor does his word dwell in you, for you do not believe the one he sent.

 

[Hekuran]

let us imagine that u r not christian and u opened this book and u found that the first verse says
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

what will u understand from it?? in my opinion, u will understand nothing

Fair comment. I think I said at the beginning that this passage is dense and obscure. I take it as a puzzle, a mystery, and the rest of the John's Gospel is about revealing the answers.

It goes to the heart of the Christian faith. The One God is relational in his very being: Father and Son are distinct persons who are part of the one God. And God revealed himself to us by being born as a man.

Maybe as an abstract statement it sounds very strange. I would hope that as we read on in the gospel and observe Jesus' words and actions it will become a little clearer. It is too soon to make a judgment on it.

Also note that several times in the course of this gospel - John 8:58-59, John 10:30-31 - John records that people tried to kill Jesus for blasphemy (In the end, they succeeded, but that is getting ahead of ourselves).

 

[Hammmzzzaaa]

Well guys I just want to mAkr certain things clear
When I said that this verse has no meaning or that there r contradictions in it, I meant at this level of the bible
I mean that if someone opened the gospel for the first time and read this verse he will feel that it is obscure and has no meaning, maybe it's meaning will come more clear as we move on in reading the gospel, but at this level it's meaning is rather vague

I think that we all agree on that
Second I wish that we will analyze everything we read fairly without being preoccupied with a certain faith and try to prove that it is correct
But I wish that everyone sharing will analyze the verses we read as if he doesn't have any certain faith and is only reading the bible to find out who is Jesus

So hekuran, I think that we both agree on these verses, so if u want to move on I am ready

 

[jiggyfly]

ok hekuran let us discuss it

"in the beginning was jesus christ"
this verse tells us that the first thing which was present was Jesus
then
"and jesus christ was with God"
this verse contradicts the verse before, if sayas that jesus was with god, which means that god was already present, so how was "in the beginning was jesus christ"???
God was already present

then the third verse contradicts the second
it says "and jesus christ was god"
so how was jesus with God
the second verse indicated that we have 2 separate intitities, jesus and god, and they are both with each other

so how then it says that jesus was God??

hekuran, let us be be honest with each other, in my opinion this verse really has no logical meaning
let us imagine that u r not christian and u opened this book and u found that the first verse says
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

what will u understand from it?? in my opinion, u will understand nothing

I cant find "first thing" even mentioned anywhere in the context. Where do you see it?

 

[Hammmzzzaaa]

I cant find "first thing" even mentioned anywhere in the context. Where do you see it?

Well can u explain to me what is meant by " in the beginning was the word"

 

[Hekuran]

Second I wish that we will analyze everything we read fairly without being preoccupied with a certain faith and try to prove that it is correct
But I wish that everyone sharing will analyze the verses we read as if he doesn't have any certain faith and is only reading the bible to find out who is Jesus

I am not absolutely sure what you are saying here. Is it simply that you want to understand what the Bible says about Jesus without feeling like you are being pushed into believing something? If so we should try to explain and clarify, not preach and try to persuade.

Ok let's see how Jesus begins his teaching and prophetic ministry.

John 1.35-51

 

[Hammmzzzaaa]

Sorry hekuran but there are certain verses that u jumped
lets discuss them first:
John bore witness of Him and cried, saying, "This was He of whom I spoke, `He that cometh after me is preferred before me, for He was before me.'"

And of His fullness have we all received, and grace for grace.
For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He hath declared Him.

do u have any comments on these verses??

 

[Hekuran]

Yes

Law came through Moses; grace and truth through Jesus Christ

The Law that God gave Moses as the people of Israel escaped Egypt is the foundation of the Scriptures, and the great revelation of God.

This verse indicates that there is a continuity between the revelation through Moses and the revelation of God in Jesus, and that God is doing something new. The grace and truth that come through Jesus is something fresh from God, and it springs from the law of Moses.

Grace is the mirror image of mercy. Mercy is not getting what we deserve, grace is getting something we do not deserve.

 

[Hammmzzzaaa]

Yes

Law came through Moses; grace and truth through Jesus Christ

The Law that God gave Moses as the people of Israel escaped Egypt is the foundation of the Scriptures, and the great revelation of God.

This verse indicates that there is a continuity between the revelation through Moses and the revelation of God in Jesus, and that God is doing something new. The grace and truth that come through Jesus is something fresh from God, and it springs from the law of Moses.

Grace is the mirror image of mercy. Mercy is not getting what we deserve, grace is getting something we do not deserve.

well don't u think that the linking between moses and and jesus in the same context is a kind of indication that they are in the same degree or grade, i mean that they are both prophets?

i mean that if jesus was God, then both the law and grace would have been given through jesus as moses was inspired the law from god, he didn't say it from himself, but he was inspired by god to teach such laws

but the verse gives us the impression that moses gave the law only, and jesus gave the grace and truth only

 

[Hekuran]

well don't u think that the linking between moses and and jesus in the same context is a kind of indication that they are in the same degree or grade, i mean that they are both prophets?

i mean that if jesus was God, then both the law and grace would have been given through jesus as moses was inspired the law from god, he didn't say it from himself, but he was inspired by god to teach such laws

but the verse gives us the impression that moses gave the law only, and jesus gave the grace and truth only

Think about how this might sound to a first century Jewish audience. The Law was the essence of their identity, and was the thing that distinguished them from all their neighbours. Nobody in the history of Israel was held in higher esteem than Moses, so this verse would have been read as a really big claim.

Yes Jesus and Moses are both prophets. Five or six times in the gospel of John people call Jesus a prophet, and Jesus never says anything to correct them.

We should probably be careful with words, too. The Christian understanding of a prophet is someone who speaks on behalf of God, and with the authority of God. Would most Muslims agree with that definition?

If you read on to the end of this chapter, v45 "We have found him of whom Moses in the Law and also the prophets wrote, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph" you see the claim that Jesus of Nazareth is the fulfillment of Moses' prophecy.

 

[Hammmzzzaaa]

Yes Jesus and Moses are both prophets. Five or six times in the gospel of John people call Jesus a prophet, and Jesus never says anything to correct them.

when jesus didn't say anything to correct them, then from where did u know that they said something wrong??

maybe he didn't correct them because he totally agrees with what they said

 

[Hammmzzzaaa]

The Christian understanding of a prophet is someone who speaks on behalf of God, and with the authority of God. Would most Muslims agree with that definition?

well muslims agree with that definition

 

[Hekuran]

when jesus didn't say anything to correct them, then from where did u know that they said something wrong??

maybe he didn't correct them because he totally agrees with what they said

Yes that's what I am saying. Most often people would give address Jesus as "Rabbi" (teacher). People followed his because they believed he was a prophet. Jesus seems to have been comfortable with both. The people were not wrong.

 

[Hammmzzzaaa]

People followed his because they believed he was a prophet. Jesus seems to have been comfortable with both. The people were not wrong.

Hekuran r u sure about that??

u mean that the people who believed that jesus was a prophet weren't wrong??

then why do u say he is God then?

 

[Hammmzzzaaa]

Think about how this might sound to a first century Jewish audience. The Law was the essence of their identity, and was the thing that distinguished them from all their neighbours. Nobody in the history of Israel was held in higher esteem than Moses, so this verse would have been read as a really big claim.
.

do u mean by that that people of Israel weren't worshiping jesus

then whom were they worshiping?? and were they following the true religion?

 

[james g]

But was Jesus only a prophet?

 

[Hekuran]

Jesus was a carpenter, but he was not only a carpenter.
Jesus was a teacher, but he was not only a teacher.
Jesus was a travelling preacher, but he was not only a travelling preacher
Jesus was a prophet, but he was not only a prophet.
I am confident that reading through John's gospel will give us a true picture of who Jesus is.

And, yes, the people of Israel were following true religion before Jesus came. They followed God (as we do) according to how much of God's nature and plan had been revealed.

 

[Hammmzzzaaa]

Jesus was a carpenter, but he was not only a carpenter.
Jesus was a teacher, but he was not only a teacher.
Jesus was a travelling preacher, but he was not only a travelling preacher.

but there is point u missed
one can be a carpenter, a teacher and a travelling preacher in the same time, because being a carpenter doesn't contradict being a teacher and doesn't contradict being a travelling preacher.

but one can't be a prophet and God in the same time cause both are antagonisms

a prophet worship God, and not worshiped
and God is worshiped by prophets (and others) and doesn't worship anyone

so one can't be a prophet and God in the same time.

I hope u get my point.