John 3:16 - What does it mean?

[brakelite]

Brakelite,

This is what you said to Jari and myself:

It is your fruit RJ and Jari that will be the identifying marks or characteristics that will be used in the judgement to ascertain whether you are fit for God's kingdom or not.
My fruit? I thought that I am the branch and Jesus is the vine? I thought the analogy was the branch could produce nothing with out the vine? The branch holds the fruit, bares the fruit, it does not produce the fruit except through and from the vine.
"I am the vine and you are the branch, if you are in me and I in you, you will produce much fruit, without me you can do nothing".
Let's see : Without Jesus you can bare no fruit but with Jesus you will bare much fruit. So, who's fruit is it really? I don't fully understand how but, I think its not my fruit but his fruit through me!

Please do try and understand this. It is simple Biblical teaching and so very important to know.
Don't try to understand it but, at the same time, it is a simple Biblical teaching....I am confused?
Could you provide scripture for this simple Biblical teaching?

Good fruit such as the love of God in our lives for others does not justify us, yet is absolutely essential if we are to ultimately enter heaven. God will not allow into His kingdom anyone who lacks that love.
And yes RJ, there are many Christians who do not exercise that love, for it is not an instant thing that happens overnight. It is a fruit of the Spirit that takes time to grow
So, again, you say that we must exercise either some type or perhaps amount of love to get into heaven. But, you say that we are not justified by this love but we must posess it before we get in heaven. This is a contradiction to me, I don't see brakelite how you can have it both ways. How can there be many Christians who do not exercise that love, as you say? If this is so, how are they Christians,with Christ in them, in the first place? How where they Christians to begin with?

And about this being good!:
"There is none Good but One, that is, God" Mark 10:18. Who but the Eternal God has always been Good? "Oh that men would praise the LORD for His Goodness, and for His Wonderful Works to the children of men!" Psalm 107:15. Neither created angels nor justified men can lay claim to but a moment of time or the remainder of Eternity to be Good. "The path of the just is as the shining light, that shineth more and more unto the perfect day" Proverbs 4:18....Brakelite, what do you think "unto this perfect day" means?
We can certainly believe that God is Good. "Thou art Good, and doest Good; teach me Thy Statutes" Psalm 119:68. And, who but God has always been? "From Everlasting to Everlasting, Thou art God" Psalm 90:2. Therefore, it is fair to say, "There is none Good but One, that is, God" Mark 10:18. And, I think most would agree that a Christian is marked by God as one who has Christ in him. So when it comes to possessing "Good Fruits" as you say: I think not that it is yours for no good is from us but from the one who lives in the true Christian!
Brakelite, I know you love God and want to please him and, to the best of my ability, so do I! But, I believe, we are not justified by our good fruit nor saved by them but by the grace of God through our faith or belief in his gospel.

You talked about "simple Biblical truth"...here are two of my favorites:

⁶ being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus. Philippians 1:6
Brakelite: His good work through us....not our good work through us!!!

¹⁶ “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,<sup class="footnote" value="[<a href=&quot;http://www.talkjesus.com/#fen-NIV1984-26127a&quot; target=&quot;_blank&quot;>a</a>]">[a]</sup> that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life John 3:16
Not that we do this or we do that but, who ever believes in him!!!

You are quite correct RJ, it is not our fruit, it is the fruit of the Spirit. My apologies. So I will say then that without the fruit of the Spirit, no-one will see the kingdom of God.
And yes RJ, I also agree with you that so long as we are abiding in Him and are attached to the vine, then we will be producing fruit. Absolutely. Jesus is the good vine, the branches attached thereto cannot help themselves. They must produce good fruit. It is only a natural consequence.
I still contend that it will be those fruit that will be used as the identifying characteristic that is used by God to judge who are really His, just as it will be the bad fruit that will identify those who are of the devil.
After all, didn't Jesus instruct us that that is the way we are to judge one another? I would suggest that it is also a way to judge oneself. If the fruit aint growing my friend, you aint abiding. Regardless of what you 'feel' or 'believe'.

 

[agua]

After all, didn't Jesus instruct us that that is the way we are to judge one another? I would suggest that it is also a way to judge oneself. If the fruit aint growing my friend, you aint abiding. Regardless of what you 'feel' or 'believe'.

Mat 7:19-20 NKJV Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. (20) Therefore by their fruits you will know them.

 

[gdemoss]

Mat 7:19-20 NKJV Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. (20) Therefore by their fruits you will know them.

Who will we know? false prophets is what Matthew 7:19-20 pertain too. We should be known by our love for one another unless of course we are prophets. The fruit of the prophet both true and false is what they provide as food for their hearers.

I am trying not to get lost here.

Gary

 

[agua]

Who will we know? false prophets is what Matthew 7:19-20 pertain too. We should be known by our love for one another unless of course we are prophets. The fruit of the prophet both true and false is what they provide as food for their hearers.

I am trying not to get lost here.

Gary

We also have the Pharisees and Sadducees provoked concerning their "fruit".


Mat 3:5-8 NKJV Then Jerusalem, all Judea, and all the region around the Jordan went out to him (6) and were baptized by him in the Jordan, confessing their sins. (7) But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them, "Brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? (8) Therefore bear fruits worthy of repentance,


These "fruits" are partially outlined in Galatians.



Gal 5:22-23 NKJV But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, (23) gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law.



The works of the flesh are also partially outlined and imo can be considered bad "fruit" .



Gal 5:19-21 NKJV Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, (20) idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, (21) envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.



Fruit identifies a believer/follower of Christ.

 

[jari]

We also have the Pharisees and Sadducees provoked concerning their "fruit".


Mat 3:5-8 NKJV Then Jerusalem, all Judea, and all the region around the Jordan went out to him (6) and were baptized by him in the Jordan, confessing their sins. (7) But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them, "Brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? (8) Therefore bear fruits worthy of repentance,

These "fruits" are partially outlined in Galatians.



Gal 5:22-23 NKJV But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, (23) gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law.

i think these fruits are different.

consider the fact that we can assume they were not born again. So how can thee bear fruit of the spirit if not?

i think their problem was that they were hypocrites. wanting to get babtised though never repenting of their bad conduct... these are probably the same people who wanted to have Jesus killed.
Because they were religious but hypocrites and wrong doers, money creedy and totally ungodly men who thought they'd take a babtism from john to be righteuss.

But their heart was far from hearing God....

The works of the flesh are also partially outlined and imo can be considered bad "fruit" .



Gal 5:19-21 NKJV Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, (20) idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, (21) envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.



Fruit identifies a believer/follower of Christ.

Or Born again, chíld of God.

And I don think they do these sins like people normally would do without a problem:

24And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

25If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

describes how born again has crucified the flesh. Which is because of God's spirit given at regeneration. And he has become a new creature.

So Paul was saying we are not like them. And he encouraged to walk in spirit since we have be born of it as well. And we have become free of condemnation over sins.

 

[agua]

i think these fruits are different.

consider the fact that we can assume they were not born again. So how can thee bear fruit of the spirit if not?

i think their problem was that they were hypocrites. wanting to get babtised though never repenting of their bad conduct... these are probably the same people who wanted to have Jesus killed.
Because they were religious but hypocrites and wrong doers, money creedy and totally ungodly men who thought they'd take a babtism from john to be righteuss.

But their heart was far from hearing God....

Yes their fruit was not in accordance with love. They held being "children of Abraham", and outwardly following the law, as their righteousness. Like you suggest Jesus later showed their hypocrisy and how they were hateful and neglected to do good when required.
Their works/fruit were not in accordance with a repentant heart.

Or Born again, chíld of God.

And I don think they do these sins like people normally would do without a problem:

24And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

25If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

describes how born again has crucified the flesh. Which is because of God's spirit given at regeneration. And he has become a new creature.

So Paul was saying we are not like them. And he encouraged to walk in spirit since we have be born of it as well. And we have become free of condemnation over sins.

A Christian is capable of committing sins listed as "works of the flesh" in Galatians 5 as is shown in 1 Corinthians 5. This is why we are instructed in discipline within the Body.

 

[jari]

Yes their fruit was not in accordance with love. They held being "children of Abraham", and outwardly following the law, as their righteousness. Like you suggest Jesus later showed their hypocrisy and how they were hateful and neglected to do good when required.
Their works/fruit were not in accordance with a repentant heart.

A Christian is capable of committing sins listed as "works of the flesh" in Galatians 5 as is shown in 1 Corinthians 5. This is why we are instructed in discipline within the Body.

yes is cabable but does he practice sins without a problem?

i was saying that born again would have problems with sin and understand what sin is..

 

[gdemoss]

We also have the Pharisees and Sadducees provoked concerning their "fruit".


Mat 3:5-8 NKJV Then Jerusalem, all Judea, and all the region around the Jordan went out to him (6) and were baptized by him in the Jordan, confessing their sins. (7) But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them, "Brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? (8) Therefore bear fruits worthy of repentance,


These "fruits" are partially outlined in Galatians.



Gal 5:22-23 NKJV But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, (23) gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law.



The works of the flesh are also partially outlined and imo can be considered bad "fruit" .



Gal 5:19-21 NKJV Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, (20) idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, (21) envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.



Fruit identifies a believer/follower of Christ.

Sorry Agua, I wasn't trying to say that fruit is never considered behavior. I just thought it would help you if you knew the verse you quoted did not say such a thing. Are you taking my attempts to edify as personal attacks? I hope not. I can be clumsy with words and not clear at times.

 

[agua]

Sorry Agua, I wasn't trying to say that fruit is never considered behavior. I just thought it would help you if you knew the verse you quoted did not say such a thing. Are you taking my attempts to edify as personal attacks? I hope not. I can be clumsy with words and not clear at times.

Oky doky.

I see Matthew 7:20 as a great generic example of identifying the standing of any person. It is precisely, in context, about false prophets as you say.

Do you think using this scripture generically is wrong ?

 

[gdemoss]

Oky doky.

I see Matthew 7:20 as a great generic example of identifying the standing of any person. It is precisely, in context, about false prophets as you say.

Do you think using this scripture generically is wrong ?

I believe in what I understand to be scriptures that contain universal truth that are independent of the context surrounding them but add to the context itself. For example: Titus 1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

This scripture contains universal truth that may be applied to every situation. God cannot lie. And God promised eternal life before the world began. These two things are true in and of themselves. But to go out and tell people that God has promised eternal life to unrepentant murders and liars is turning the truth into a lie.

In the case of Matt 7:20, can we argue the point that real Christians are known by the fruit of their love and therefore known by there fruit? Sure. But we can't do that from Matt 7:20. Those facts must come from separate scriptures. So for the sake of keeping the context pure, I simply choose to say Christians are known by there love for one another Jon 13:35, while false teachers are known by the fruit of their lips Matt 7:20.

I hope this helps.

Gary

 

[agua]

In the case of Matt 7:20, can we argue the point that real Christians are known by the fruit of their love and therefore known by there fruit? Sure. But we can't do that from Matt 7:20. Those facts must come from separate scriptures.

That we can identify all people by their works/fruit is evident as per Galtians 5.

Gal 5:19-23 NKJV Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, (20) idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, (21) envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. (22) But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, (23) gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law.


It's a universal truth imo.

So for the sake of keeping the context pure, I simply choose to say Christians are known by there love for one another Jon 13:35, while false teachers are known by the fruit of their lips Matt 7:20.

I hope this helps.

Gary

The love and faith a Christian professes becomes evident in their fruit/works in the same way a false prophet is identified by the result/outcome of his prophecy/teachings.

I am comfortable applying Matt 7:20 as a generic universal truth where the outward signs/results of any prophecy/profession/teaching/claim can identify the heart/motive /truth/nature of every person.

 

[gdemoss]

It's a universal truth imo.

I understand. It is as I said. You can develop it using other scripture and you apply the universal truth found elsewhere to Matt 7:20. You are comfortable doing that, while I prefer to try and keep things understood within the context they are found.

OK then, lets move on

G'day

Gary

 

[agua]

I understand. It is as I said. You can develop it using other scripture and you apply the universal truth found elsewhere to Matt 7:20. You are comfortable doing that, while I prefer to try and keep things understood within the context they are found.

OK then, lets move on

G'day

Gary

Yes we have an understanding. We have the ability to use scripture universally when appropriate.

 

[EphremHagos]

While working out a study on the basic text of John 3:16 I discovered the following:

1. Of the Greek manuscripts that I have:
   • The Apostolic Bible Polyglot
   • Byzantine Greek New Testament
   • Westcott & Hort Greek New Testament
   • Textus Receptus Greek New Testament

All agree on the same Greek text for this verse except for the word ουτως or ουτω, the 'ς' on the end of the word denotes that it comes before a vowel. This minor variation does not effect the meaning of the verse.

Here are just a few of our English translations available. I tried to keep the number low so I selected only those texts that seemed to differ greatly.

New International Version (©1984)
"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

New Living Translation (©2007)
"For God loved the world so much that he gave his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life.

English Standard Version (©2001)
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

International Standard Version (©2008)
"For this is how God loved the world: He gave his unique Son so that everyone who believes in him might not be lost but have eternal life.

Bible in Basic English
For God had such love for the world that he gave his only Son, so that whoever has faith in him may not come to destruction but have eternal life.

Weymouth New Testament
For so greatly did God love the world that He gave His only Son, that every one who trusts in Him may not perish but may have the Life of Ages.

Young's Literal Translation
for God did so love the world, that His Son -- the only begotten -- He gave, that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during.

As one can see when reading the various translations of the Greek text, there are some variations which make little difference at all. 'Whosoever', 'whoever', 'everyone' and 'every one' all give the same basic understanding although they are different words. Same with 'Who believes', 'has trust', 'has faith in' etc. But the last phrase I highlighted contains variations such as 'should not perish', 'shall not perish' and 'will not perish'. These do not agree.

What we need to do is take a look at the words or phrases in question and work to understand what they are truly saying in the Greek vernacular.

τὸν υἱὸν τὸν μονογενῆ - the son the only one


μονογενῆ - is the word that seems to be translated different above. The following is taken from Thayers Greek Lexicon.

1. single of its kind, only
   • used of only sons or daughters (viewed in relation to their parents)
   • used of Christ, denotes the only begotten son of God

In the KJV, the term 'only begotten' is only used when speaking of Jesus. The same Greek word is translated 'the only', 'only child' and 'one only' when referencing other peoples children. Then we have Abraham who actually had 2 children at the time he offered up Isaac. This word is translated 'his only begotten' to describe Isaac even though Ishmael was begotten by him. We also know that Adam is referred to as the son of God as well as angels are referred to as the sons of God. Jesus of course is called the son of God.

If we stay with the concept of 'single of its kind' then we can make sense of it. Isaac was the son of promise as single of kind. Each of the people spoken of who only had one child were single of their kind. So here we must examine how Jesus was 'single of his kind' as opposed to all the other sons of God. Jesus was the only one who God actually brought into the creation using a woman and didn't begin his existence there. Jesus had enjoyed fellowship with the Father before the world began.

It would seem to me that 'the only begotten son' would best suit for clarity but it doesn't make the others wrong.

πᾶς ὁ πιστεύων εἰς αὐτὸν - any who believe in him

All of our translations are basically saying the same thing. Unfortunately they do not capture the essence of what can be understood in the Greek.

πιστεύων the word translated for believe is actually a 'present active participle' in the Greek. Participles denote a continuous action. So the person spoken of here is both presently and continuously believing or having faith in Jesus. One who stops believing would not be being referred to in this verse even if he/she initially believed. Everyone who is continuously believing in him is a fuller translation of the text. Once again this does not make our translations inaccurate.

μὴ ἀπόληται - not perish

ἀπόληται the word translated for perish/destruction/lost is actually a 'aorist middle subjunctive' in the Greek. Aorist denotes a punticular or single event. Subjunctive denotes that something is merely a possibility and not a guarantee. Middle denotes that the subject is actually acting upon themselves or in their own interest.

The Greek is really saying 'may not cause themselves to perish'.

ἀλλ ἔχῃ ζωὴν αἰώνιον - but have life eternal

ἔχῃ - once again we have 'present active subjunctive' and the subjunctive means that this is only a possibility and not a guarantee. Herein we find that we do have translations that are inaccurately translating the text. It should not be translated as a definite.

In the end we should understand that: God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son that any who continuously are believing in him should not cause themselves to perish but might have eternal life.

The guarantee is God made it possible.

This of course is just a look at a verse by itself and not considering it within the context in which it was written. To understand more about the verse itself we would need to understand it within the context of John 3:1-21. And doing that would reveal more.

Gary

Please correct me if I am wrong. Personally, I have found eternal life in Christ's death on the cross.

 

[Michael Snow]

John 3:16…Keeping the Easter Message


Many Christians have lost their grade school grammar and so have lost the focus of this verse. A few weeks ago, I heard a pastor, using this text, emphasizing that God sooooooo loved the world. The main focus of the verse was not even acknowledged.

So: ‘in a manner or way indicated,’ hence, “God thus loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son…”

Or “This is how God loved the world, he gave his son…” He gave him up to the cross, for you, for me. This is how God loved the world. And the great confirmation of this act of love came on the third day with the greatest event in all history: The Resurrection.

“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.”

from text in context, word press

 

[Michael Snow]

sorry double posted

 

[David777]

Matthew 25

34 “Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in; 36 naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.’ 37 Then the righteous will answer Him, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You something to drink? 38 And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You? 39 When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ 40 The King will answer and say to them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.’

41 “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘ Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; 42 for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; 43 I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.’ 44 Then they themselves also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?’ 45 Then He will answer them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46 These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”


Methinks there is a deeper truth to God's reconciliation.

A born again individual will in time bear fruit as the above verses testify too.

We are saved by Grace (kindness of God) and our Faith is a gift also.

There is zero input on our behalf as far as reconciliation is concerned.

Jesus is the one predestined to perform the reconciliation.

We just believe in Jesus which is the will of God, simple but true.

Any works we produce are only the fruit of the gifts initiated
by God, all is from above for all.

Never let go of our first love, Jesus, and growing in our love
for our brothers and sisters.

For God so loved the world......

 

[Michelle71]

The main issue is who are we looking to for salvation. God's only begotten Son, Jesus Christ, is who shed His blood for reconciliation back to God the Father. We trust God accepts His sacrifice as full payment for our souls.

So, then is repentance an only one time thing, and then home free, or do we have a part in remaining in Him, abiding in the Holy Spirit sent from God the Father through Christ our Lord. There is a need in the churches of
today to know exactly who Jesus is, and who it is that we are reconciled to.

The issue of people thinking they were saved, and really weren't, is not a new thing. This passage cannot be overlooked or taken lightly..

2Co 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?