John 3:7
- Thread starter David1954
- Start date
Butch5
Active
I'm not sure what you're getting at. I don't see anything about a personal savior anywhere in Scripture. I was taught that same thing when i became a Christian. However, I don't see it in the Scriptures.
To state an absolute fact, churches of Christ are not protestant churches. If you had studied this subject as you say you have, you would have known this fact. Churches of Christ belong in the "restoration" category. Protestants are in the "reformation".
Protestants are considered "reformation" because in one way or another, they keep a base model of what Catholics taught. Thus, as reformation's definition dictates, they merely just "improve" upon an already faulty belief. Sure they speak truth in some areas. However, they still teach falsely in other areas.
You are wrong about Acts 8.
Only two times in the NT did the Holy Spirit descend upon people in this fashion, Acts 2 and 10.
Problem with the people who say you are saved ONLY with this method, is they forget Cornelius and his household and friends STILL had to be baptized into water.
Everyone in Acts 8 was also baptized into water.
John 3:7 :
"Born of water" - It was Peter himself who said to Cornelius (Acts 10) "can anyone forbid them water.... and he commanded them to be baptized"
The Holy Spirit was to do this because the Jews believed they were the only ones who would be chosen (See Peter's explanation in Acts 11). God had shown the Jews right before their eyes that gentiles were also chosen.
Peter had also said "baptism now saves us" right after saying that through water Noah and family was saved.
Paul agrees with Peter when he told Titus, "He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,". Peter basically said the same thing in Acts 2:38 "be baptized...and you receive the Holy Spirit".
"and born of the Holy Spirit" (jn 3:7) This is what happens when you obey that which was commanded of us to become Christians.
Hear
Believe
repent
confess
be baptized
[insert receiving of Holy Spirit here as in effect following baptism through our obedience]
remain faithful
Peter and Paul said this
Titus 3:5/Romans 6:3-5
Acts 2:38/1 Peter 3:20-21
Lastly, you are taking Acts 8:16 out of context.
(NKJV)
14 Now when the apostles who were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them,
15 who, when they had come down, prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit.
16 For as yet He had fallen upon none of them. They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
17 Then they laid hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.
18 And when Simon saw that through the laying on of the apostles’ hands the Holy Spirit was given, he offered them money,
19 saying, “Give me this power also, that anyone on whom I lay hands may receive the Holy Spirit.”
Facts:
1-They sent Peter and John to Samaria
2- The Samarians had already received the word of God before Peter and John came (see previous verses)
But when they believed Philip as he preached the things concerning the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, both men and women were baptized.
Then Simon himself also believed; and when he was baptized he continued with Philip, and was amazed, seeing the miracles and signs which were done.
These are undeniable facts that you cannot disagree with. Now to the supposed discrepancy.
Peter and John came to Samaria to lay hands on them and give them miraculous gifts. Not to save them since they already were saved (verses 12-14).
So what you are propositioning, is that Peter and John came to "lay hands on" and "save" the Samarians through human means of "laying of hands".
This cannot be true. No one is taught to go around everywhere laying hands on people to save them. That is false and has no scriptural support.
What I see here, is that Peter and John came to lay hands and pass on miraculous gifts to the Samarians, who were ALREADY in a saved state aka Christians.
If we are saved by the laying of hands, then we are ALL doomed because there are no apostles alive that can do this for us. No, they were baptized in water just like the Ethiopian in the later part of Acts 8, and saved before Peter and John was sent. They merely were to receive miraculous gifts is all, by the laying of hands.
@Butch5 -- wouldn't a 'belief in a person's heart' Be on a 'personal' level?
What about John 3:16 that who so ever believeth -- that puts it on a personal level.
And about 'not of works lest any one should boast'. That would put salvation on a personal level.
And baptism by immersion -- showing other people what has taken place already in your heart. That is a Personal inner belief.
And the fact that in the end -- we will All stand before the judgement seat of Christ.
What about John 3:16 that who so ever believeth -- that puts it on a personal level.
And about 'not of works lest any one should boast'. That would put salvation on a personal level.
And baptism by immersion -- showing other people what has taken place already in your heart. That is a Personal inner belief.
And the fact that in the end -- we will All stand before the judgement seat of Christ.
Butch5
Active
Sure, our beliefs are personal. But that doesn't make Jesus one's personal savior. Here is the definition of personal.
"of, affecting, or belonging to a particular person rather than to anyone else. "
If Jesus was one person's personal savior wouldn't that mean He couldn't be anyone else's?
@Acts 2:38 -- the Protestant Reformation -- key men in the church saw the doctrinal problems within the RCC and tried to do something about them. The RCC hierarchy would not listen. So those men --well -- one big thing was the posting of the 99 problems within the church. Can't think of what it's really called. But those men broke Away from the RCC for a very good reason. Because they saw Big problems from Within.
Of course, they Have been considered to be rebels of the RCC. Up until then, the RCC Had been the most ;powerful belief system in the world.
They were Not Allowed to restore from within. They were actively Protesting //Leaving the False teachings -- they Left / broke away From the false teachings.
Of course, they Have been considered to be rebels of the RCC. Up until then, the RCC Had been the most ;powerful belief system in the world.
They were Not Allowed to restore from within. They were actively Protesting //Leaving the False teachings -- they Left / broke away From the false teachings.
Salvation IS available to All, but is only accepted by those who do, In fact, accept Jesus Christ. on a personal basis.
John 3:16 -- For God so Loved the World -- that who so ever believeth. the 'who' is what makes it Personal.
The 'heart's belief' the heart of man is their personal heart. A person's Soul is their personal soul.
the Holy Spirit's coming to indwell the person at the moment of their salvation makes it 'personal'.
The personal inner peace upon salvation puts it on a personal level.
Upon salvation a person becomes a son or daughter of God the Father.
Philippians 4 :6 , 8 , 13, 19 -- all on a personal level.
Ephesians 6 -- putting on the full armor of God. Personal.
Scripture talks about the group of believers in various churches. That believers should be getting together frequently to encourage each other , pray for one another, worship together.
I agree with what you said here.
The RCC was not the first church though, just in case this was implied. Christs church established in Acts 2 with Peters confession was the first one. The RCC was a split from the first century Christians (1 Timothy 4:1-3; 2 Timothy 4:3-4 comes to mind). The RCC wasnt even a thing until what...the mid 200's AD? Maybe even later. Then the dark ages happened
It was a good thing for the people then to realize that the RCC was teaching false. However, they do hold on to some variation of the RCC doctrines, which is still inherently wrong. Even more so, they acquired some of their own false beliefs like OSAS and faith only in their break away from the RCC.
That is why its called "Reformation". They only improved upon and already false system of beliefs. Just some facts I was trying to get our fellow website member to see and understand, and not lump a "Restoration" type church with the "reformation".
So -- you consider that OSAS is a false belief? Once Saved Always Saved. No belief in eternal security? Actually that is very Scriptural.
At the time of a person's salvation, the Holy Spirit comes to indwell and Stays with the person. It means that the born-again believer is 'safe' in Christ until they are present with Jesus Christ for eternity.
At the time of a person's salvation, the Holy Spirit comes to indwell and Stays with the person. It means that the born-again believer is 'safe' in Christ until they are present with Jesus Christ for eternity.
So -- you consider that OSAS is a false belief? Once Saved Always Saved. No belief in eternal security? Actually that is very Scriptural.
At the time of a person's salvation, the Holy Spirit comes to indwell and Stays with the person. It means that the born-again believer is 'safe' in Christ until they are present with Jesus Christ for eternity.
"For by grace, you are saved, through faith, and that not of yourself, it is the gift from God......." That verse is talking about faith.
At the time of a person's salvation, the Holy Spirit comes to indwell and Stays with the person. It means that the born-again believer is 'safe' in Christ until they are present with Jesus Christ for eternity.
"For by grace, you are saved, through faith, and that not of yourself, it is the gift from God......." That verse is talking about faith.
"Those teachings." Lol. I didn't expect the Spirit to fall on me.
Huh?
Yes. The bible is chalk full of warnings for Christians. Look at Revelations ch 2 and 3. Jesus is warning them that they should get back on track or suffer loss of their lamp stand.
What do you think that means?
Combine Hebrews 10:26-27 with that of those talked about in Hebrews 6:4-6. You do realize that they were Christians talked about right? Key word being "were".
Christians can fall. Christians that one day decide to do things that they know for a fact are a sin, and to continue in them, are lost until they can come unto repentance. Key thought being, they have to choose to come back and repent else lose their lamp stand.
Those who obey the gospel? Sure.
Those who fall away? No.
The huge difference being... obedience/remaining faithful unto the end, and not falling off the band wagon never to intend to jump back on and/or stay on.
2 Thessalonians 1:8-9 - Them that what? "do not know" and "do not obey". That mean Christians who do not obey, will suffer everlasting punishment.
I used it as an example along with other things. I didnt intend nor predict someone would pick that out of the pile and choose to speak about it. However, I was not going to let it go unanswered.
Sorry it upset you so much.
rhern53
Member
could this apply to OSAS:
If anyone makes any effort in doing the Lord's work I would think applies to this
1st Cor 3:
10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
Because Calvinists believe in that the "elect" (Christians) are ordained and chosen by God before they even existed, that there is no free will choice in the matter and they were saved before anything really had to be done.
Also, that since they are "elect" and ordained to be elect, that no matter what they do, they are always in a saved state. Those who are not ordained elect, no matter what they do, are always in a doomed state.
OSAS takes a form of this idea, and states that once you are saved, no matter what you do after, you will always be saved regardless if you never repent should one willfully begin down a dark path.
In all cases, whether they admit it or not, OSAS is usually tied to the idea that a Christian can NEVER fall no matter what they do regardless of what the bible says.
When a Christian falls away from God, they always make some excuse like "Oh, they never were TRULY a Christian in the first place".
Its actually quite similar to Calvinism and I would boldly claim OSAS is a branch off of that idea.