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Keep the sabbath day Holy is one of the 10 commandments

@B-A-C

Greetings,

That one went over my head...

One of the problems with the King James, is people have forgotten the nuances of old English speech. For example Matt 24:24;
The majority of Bibles say it IS possible for the elect to be deceived. King James isn't saying it's impossible either.

What you wrote, along with the many verses, seems to be missing something ?

Do you mind re-writing the first bit so I can grasp exactly what you meant? I am interested but, as you know , i am sometimes a bit slow (slower than usual)

I haven't seen Phillips for a while !


Bless you ....><>
 
One of the problems with the King James, is people have forgotten the nuances of old English speech. For example Matt 24:24;
The majority of Bibles say it IS possible for the elect to be deceived. King James isn't saying it's impossible either.


I would offer its not that a believer does not deny Christ in unbelief like the foolish Galatians who trusted in the things seen and not the hearing of faith. .

The reason by which we warned beforehand prophecy came to a end in respect to Revelation the last chapter, having closed and sealed with 7 seals till the end of time. ending with a warning.

The Elect will not be deceived by false prophecy coming from false apostles .They hold to all things written in the law and the prophets (sola scriptura) By it they try the spirts to whether inspired form heaven or earthly of the god of this world

The perfect or complete has come what we knew in part up until the last revelation. the book of Revaltion (still the last chapter ). We now have the whole or counsel of God with no laws missing by which we could know our heavenly father more adequately or intimately .

Why go above all things written in the law and the prophets even knowing Satan is still with all power to deceive bringing lying signs as wonder through false prophecy.


Matthew 24:23-25King James Version Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Behold, I have told you before time. ( The end of new prophecy )


1 Corinthians 13: 9-10 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
 
That one went over my head...
What you wrote, along with the many verses, seems to be missing something ?

I will give you two sentences.

If possible, I will come see you next month.

If it was possible, I would come see you next month.

One says there is a chance I might come see you next month.
The other says, I would come see you, but it's not possible.

A few translations of Matt 24:24; say "if it were possible" the elect would be deceived.
Most translations more accurately say... "if possible" the elect will be deceived.

One infers it isn't possible, the other infers, it is.
 
I will give you two sentences.

If possible, I will come see you next month.

If it was possible, I would come see you next month.

One says there is a chance I might come see you next month.
The other says, I would come see you, but it's not possible.

A few translations of Matt 24:24; say "if it were possible" the elect would be deceived.
Most translations more accurately say... "if possible" the elect will be deceived.

One infers it isn't possible, the other infers, it is.

God does not use if in that way . All things are possible with His power .

He was stating a fact its not possibility seeing believers have the complete or perfect will with no laws missing by which we could know him more adequately or intimately .The last chapter ending with a warning do not to add or subtract from the perfect .

The question is why were they are not be deceived ? What is it that does deceive seeing God is not adding to his will.?

2 Thessalonians 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
 
to me that means get togther with other believers and worship the Lord,,,,,,,, it also says not to murder and lie and steal,,,,,,so if we are to keep one of the commandments we should be keeping all the commandments,, yet so many seem to dismiss the the Holy day,, as an old custom for the Jews only

Scripture teaches that Christ did away with the old covenant and all that came with it, which includes the 10 commandments AS "commandments," and replaced these with the New Covenant and its new law, the Law of Christ. No Christian today is under the old law, we are under the new law...

Matthew 11:12-13
From the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven has suffered violence, and the violent take it by force. For all the Prophets and the Law prophesied until John,

Luke 16:16
The Law and the Prophets were until John; since then the good news of the kingdom of God is preached, and everyone forces his way into it.

Romans 6:14
For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under the law [of Moses] but under grace.

Romans 7:6
But now we are released from the law [of Moses], having died to that which held us captive, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code.

2 Corinthians 3:11
For if what was being brought to an end came with glory, much more will what is permanent have glory.

Ephesians 2:15
by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that He might create in Himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace,

Hebrews 7:18
Because on the one hand, the former law is abrogated because it was weak and useless,

Hebrews 8:13
In that He said a new covenant, He abrogates the first one, and it is abrogated and has become old, and vanishing away as we speak.

Hebrews 10:9
then He added, "Behold, I have come to do your will." He does away with the first in order to establish the second.

All of the above passages address the abrogation of the old covenant and its law. The usual verse that people go to is found in Matthew 5:17-18, which is usually not translated accurately in most English word-for-word renderings: here is what it says straight from the Greek:

Matthew 5:17-18
17 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.
18 Truthfully, I tell you, if heaven and earth perish, not one dot or the smallest stroke of the pen will pass away from the law without being fulfilled.


"if heaven and earth..." = the translation here of "if" is arrived at by taking the grammar of the Greek into consideration, where it is usually ignored in word-for-word translations. It is the Greek word heos which basically means "until," but when it is followed by the particle "an" as it is in this text, it indicates mere probability, not certainty, of the action addressed; this is particularly true (in this case as well) when the word is immediately followed by a verb in the Subjunctive mood. Therefore, it takes on the meaning of "if" and not "until." Secondly, the word "perish" comes from the first appearance of the word parerchomai, which has the basic meaning of "to pass away" or "to pass near," but in this first use of the word in this text (for there are two times that it appears), it takes on the meaning of "to perish," whereas in its second appearance and use, it takes on the implied meaning of "to pass away without being fulfilled." Therefore, Jesus is not saying that He did not come to do away with the law or prophets, but rather that neither heaven nor earth would pass away before all had been fulfilled in the law and prophets. This is a far cry from what Reformed Theology tells us that the passage means.

Here Christ tells us that not one thing from the law of Moses will pass away, "without being fulfilled." He was speaking in an unusual way, for He is referring to the law of Moses which He Himself had already fulfilled, and more, at His baptism. John at first refused to baptize Jesus because he knew that Jesus didn't need a baptism of repentance, because He was the Messiah - He had never sinned. In Christ the law of Moses was completely fulfilled, but Jesus said to him, "Suffer it to be so now, for this is how we are to fulfill all righteousness," and then John baptized Him. We also know that Jesus fulfilled all the Mosaic law because we have other passages that tell us that He abrogated the law of Moses, and replaced it with the Law of Christ (see Luke 16:16; Eph. 2:15; and Heb. 7:12, 8:13, and 10:9). When looking up these references, remember that the words 'law' and 'covenant' are synonymous - the law is the covenant, and the covenant is the law (see Exo. 24:38 and Deu. 4:13).

Another example of Christ speaking this way about something as if it had not yet been fulfilled, when it actually had been fulfilled, is when He said that Elijah was coming, and then a few lines later explained that "Elijah had already come," and then explained that John the Baptist was Elijah. When comparing this text with passages that teach that Christ did fulfill and abrogate the law of Moses, keep in mind that God does not contradict Himself, ever...therefore, the answer will only be found when we take all the passages pertinent to this 'apparent' contradiction, and harmonize them together with each other.

Blessings
.
 
Scripture teaches that Christ did away with the old covenant and all that came with it, which includes the 10 commandments AS "commandments," and replaced these with the New Covenant and its new law, the Law of Christ. No Christian today is under the old law, we are under the new law...

Matthew 11:12-13
From the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven has suffered violence, and the violent take it by force. For all the Prophets and the Law prophesied until John,

Luke 16:16
The Law and the Prophets were until John; since then the good news of the kingdom of God is preached, and everyone forces his way into it.

Romans 6:14
For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under the law [of Moses] but under grace.

Romans 7:6
But now we are released from the law [of Moses], having died to that which held us captive, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code.

2 Corinthians 3:11
For if what was being brought to an end came with glory, much more will what is permanent have glory.

Ephesians 2:15
by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that He might create in Himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace,

Hebrews 7:18
Because on the one hand, the former law is abrogated because it was weak and useless,

Hebrews 8:13
In that He said a new covenant, He abrogates the first one, and it is abrogated and has become old, and vanishing away as we speak.

Hebrews 10:9
then He added, "Behold, I have come to do your will." He does away with the first in order to establish the second.

All of the above passages address the abrogation of the old covenant and its law. The usual verse that people go to is found in Matthew 5:17-18, which is usually not translated accurately in most English word-for-word renderings: here is what it says straight from the Greek:

Matthew 5:17-18
17 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.
18 Truthfully, I tell you, if heaven and earth perish, not one dot or the smallest stroke of the pen will pass away from the law without being fulfilled.


"if heaven and earth..." = the translation here of "if" is arrived at by taking the grammar of the Greek into consideration, where it is usually ignored in word-for-word translations. It is the Greek word heos which basically means "until," but when it is followed by the particle "an" as it is in this text, it indicates mere probability, not certainty, of the action addressed; this is particularly true (in this case as well) when the word is immediately followed by a verb in the Subjunctive mood. Therefore, it takes on the meaning of "if" and not "until." Secondly, the word "perish" comes from the first appearance of the word parerchomai, which has the basic meaning of "to pass away" or "to pass near," but in this first use of the word in this text (for there are two times that it appears), it takes on the meaning of "to perish," whereas in its second appearance and use, it takes on the implied meaning of "to pass away without being fulfilled." Therefore, Jesus is not saying that He did not come to do away with the law or prophets, but rather that neither heaven nor earth would pass away before all had been fulfilled in the law and prophets. This is a far cry from what Reformed Theology tells us that the passage means.

Here Christ tells us that not one thing from the law of Moses will pass away, "without being fulfilled." He was speaking in an unusual way, for He is referring to the law of Moses which He Himself had already fulfilled, and more, at His baptism. John at first refused to baptize Jesus because he knew that Jesus didn't need a baptism of repentance, because He was the Messiah - He had never sinned. In Christ the law of Moses was completely fulfilled, but Jesus said to him, "Suffer it to be so now, for this is how we are to fulfill all righteousness," and then John baptized Him. We also know that Jesus fulfilled all the Mosaic law because we have other passages that tell us that He abrogated the law of Moses, and replaced it with the Law of Christ (see Luke 16:16; Eph. 2:15; and Heb. 7:12, 8:13, and 10:9). When looking up these references, remember that the words 'law' and 'covenant' are synonymous - the law is the covenant, and the covenant is the law (see Exo. 24:38 and Deu. 4:13).

Another example of Christ speaking this way about something as if it had not yet been fulfilled, when it actually had been fulfilled, is when He said that Elijah was coming, and then a few lines later explained that "Elijah had already come," and then explained that John the Baptist was Elijah. When comparing this text with passages that teach that Christ did fulfill and abrogate the law of Moses, keep in mind that God does not contradict Himself, ever...therefore, the answer will only be found when we take all the passages pertinent to this 'apparent' contradiction, and harmonize them together with each other.

Blessings
.

I would offer we are released from the letter of the God's law (death) as to the wage of sin .The moral laws will not disappear until the last day . The law which the Lord commanded Moses; Not the law of Moses any more that what some call the gospel of John, Luke, Mark, or Mathew .The gospel of Christ the law of God

God is not served by human hands in any way shape or form .

There are ceremonial laws as shadows used to demonstrate or preach the gospel and moral laws . The ten commandments has a mixture . The ceremonial rest called the sabbath is used as a shadow of the eternal rest that will come when we receive our new incorruptible bodies. Most of the other ceremonial laws that looked ahead to the sufferings of our bloody husband sufferings and glory that followed the graves were opened and ten s of thousands of old testament saints enter the new Jerusalem prepared as the one bride of Christ .

The ceremonies were not a witness to themselves but to those who followed after the born again Spirit of Christ .They as us received the end of their new faith the salvation of their new souls


1 Peter 1: 9-12 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls. Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow. Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.


And in 1 Corinthians 11 he set up a new ceremonial law that points the new kingdoms for priest men and woman form all the nations of the world .the time of reformation had come the shadows were fulfilled .

Jesus from the tribe of Judah came as our High Priest after the promise order of Melchedik . John the Baptist was the last Levi Priest .John never refused to baptize Jesus but rather he supported it . . when questioned in John 3:26 .

John 3:26 -27 And they came unto John, and said unto him, Rabbi, he that was with thee beyond Jordan, to whom thou barest witness, behold, the same baptizeth, and all men come to him. John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven.

Many miss the understanding of the parables like with John he came in the power of the Holy Spirit signified as Elias and Moses as the letter of the law (death ) Life and death. The law and the prophets is simply all that is written (sola scriptura ) the reforming restoring power of God in any generation.

The Apostles when shown a vision and treated it as if it was not. no understanding of that parable . Law or sometimes Moses and the prophets are the two witnesses that God has spoke they will be killed (silenced) for a short time when God sent a famine for hearing the gospel


Matthew 17:3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him. Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.

God whose name is "Jealous" The Spirt of Christ would never share His unseen glory with the corrupted flesh of mankind

Again the law and the prophets or Moses and Elias the two witnesses .Two witnesses that reflect the father and Son as the one witness of God

Not after the the other teaching master below . . "necromancy" seeking the dead for the living rather than Moses and the prophets (sola scriptura) The book of prophecy God law. .

Luke 15:29-31 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, (the word of God) neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
 
John 1:17 Because the law was given through Moses; the grace and the truth came to be through Jesus Christ.
 
Matthew 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest to your souls.
30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden light.
 
to me that means get togther with other believers and worship the Lord,,,,,,,, it also says not to murder and lie and steal,,,,,,so if we are to keep one of the commandments we should be keeping all the commandments,, yet so many seem to dismiss the the Holy day,, as an old custom for the Jews only
Where are the scriptures in the NT that command us to uphold the Jewish Sabbath??
 
I would offer we are released from the letter of the God's law (death) as to the wage of sin .The moral laws will not disappear until the last day . The law which the Lord commanded Moses; Not the law of Moses any more that what some call the gospel of John, Luke, Mark, or Mathew .The gospel of Christ the law of God

God is not served by human hands in any way shape or form .

There are ceremonial laws as shadows used to demonstrate or preach the gospel and moral laws . The ten commandments has a mixture . The ceremonial rest called the sabbath is used as a shadow of the eternal rest that will come when we receive our new incorruptible bodies. Most of the other ceremonial laws that looked ahead to the sufferings of our bloody husband sufferings and glory that followed the graves were opened and ten s of thousands of old testament saints enter the new Jerusalem prepared as the one bride of Christ .

The ceremonies were not a witness to themselves but to those who followed after the born again Spirit of Christ .They as us received the end of their new faith the salvation of their new souls


1 Peter 1: 9-12 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls. Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow. Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.


And in 1 Corinthians 11 he set up a new ceremonial law that points the new kingdoms for priest men and woman form all the nations of the world .the time of reformation had come the shadows were fulfilled .

Jesus from the tribe of Judah came as our High Priest after the promise order of Melchedik . John the Baptist was the last Levi Priest .John never refused to baptize Jesus but rather he supported it . . when questioned in John 3:26 .

John 3:26 -27 And they came unto John, and said unto him, Rabbi, he that was with thee beyond Jordan, to whom thou barest witness, behold, the same baptizeth, and all men come to him. John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven.

Many miss the understanding of the parables like with John he came in the power of the Holy Spirit signified as Elias and Moses as the letter of the law (death ) Life and death. The law and the prophets is simply all that is written (sola scriptura ) the reforming restoring power of God in any generation.

The Apostles when shown a vision and treated it as if it was not. no understanding of that parable . Law or sometimes Moses and the prophets are the two witnesses that God has spoke they will be killed (silenced) for a short time when God sent a famine for hearing the gospel


Matthew 17:3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him. Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.

God whose name is "Jealous" The Spirt of Christ would never share His unseen glory with the corrupted flesh of mankind

Again the law and the prophets or Moses and Elias the two witnesses .Two witnesses that reflect the father and Son as the one witness of God

Not after the the other teaching master below . . "necromancy" seeking the dead for the living rather than Moses and the prophets (sola scriptura) The book of prophecy God law. .

Luke 15:29-31 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, (the word of God) neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

That is a lot of words to just say nothing.

The fact is, Scripture, which I gave in my first post, says that the old law has been abrogated. Period. That is what the Scriptures say; there is no getting around that fact unless one resorts to subjective personal interpretation, which just doesn't work in the real world. The 10 Commandments are not a moral law; they, like the Law of Christ, are what's called covenant law. They are the obligations that one must fulfill in order to continue to remain abiding in that covenant. The obligations of the Law of Christ are found in I John 3:23-24...to put our trust and faith in Christ, and to love on others. As Scripture says in various places, love covers a multitude of sins, and is the fulfilling of the Law.

Blessings!

PS, I just read the NLT that pops up when you put the mouse over the reference, and the NLT is not a good translation, so look it up in the ESV, that is a much closer translation to the Greek.
..
 
That is a lot of words to just say nothing.

The fact is, Scripture, which I gave in my first post, says that the old law has been abrogated. Period. That is what the Scriptures say; there is no getting around that fact unless one resorts to subjective personal interpretation, which just doesn't work in the real world. The 10 Commandments are not a moral law; they, like the Law of Christ, are what's called covenant law. They are the obligations that one must fulfill in order to continue to remain abiding in that covenant. The obligations of the Law of Christ are found in I John 3:23-24...to put our trust and faith in Christ, and to love on others. As Scripture says in various places, love covers a multitude of sins, and is the fulfilling of the Law.

Blessings!

PS, I just read the NLT that pops up when you put the mouse over the reference, and the NLT is not a good translation, so look it up in the ESV, that is a much closer translation to the Greek.
..
Nothing as non- sense or not just your kind of sense ?

The old letter of the law has been abrogated in the way that the sins of those who have been born again have been forgiven. But not one jot or tittle will be removed while corrupted mankind remains on earth. It is our moral compass.


Matthew 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.


The second death, the death of death itself through the letter of the law. Thou shall not listen to the voice of a stranger but do my will ) or you will die and your earthen body will return to the dust and the temporal spirit given under the letter of the law will return to the one Holy Father of all spirit life

The second death will be cast into the sea of judgment never to rise again and condemn a whole creation. The old things will not be remembered or ever come to mind forever more .
 
Nothing as non- sense or not just your kind of sense ?

Not my kind of sense...truth. Part of the problem here is a faulty translation, but we will fix that...

The old letter of the law has been abrogated in the way that the sins of those who have been born again have been forgiven. But not one jot or tittle will be removed while corrupted mankind remains on earth. It is our moral compass.

Abrogated is abrogated. Did you read the passages that I gave that clearly tells you that the old covenant with its law has been abrogated? If not, go back and read them...they are very clear. The only people the 10 Commandments adhere to today, are those who are not in Christ, just as Paul teaches in Galatians...it is their schoolmaster to show them their need for Christ. The person who is in Christ answers to only one law, the Law of Christ, NOT the law of Moses. As for the passage that you reference without referencing...

Matthew 5:17-18 (ESV)
17 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.
18 For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished.

Unfortunately for the uneducated in Greek, this is not what the original text states, so I will help you here:

Matthew 5:17-18
17 Do not think that I came to destroy the law or the prophets: I did not come to destroy, but to fulfill.
18 Truthfully, I tell you, if heaven and earth perish, not one dot or the smallest stroke of the pen will pass away from the law without being fulfilled.


"if heaven and earth..." = the translation here "if" is arrived at by taking the grammar of the Greek into consideration, where it is usually ignored in word-for-word translations. It is the Greek word heos which basically means "until," but when it is followed by the particle "an" as it is in this text, it indicates mere probability, not certainty, of the action addressed; this is particularly true (in this case as well) when the word is immediately followed by a verb in the Subjunctive mood. Therefore, it takes on the meaning of "if" and not "until."

Secondly, the word "perish" comes from the first appearance of the word parerchomai (παρέρχομαι), which has the basic meaning of "to pass away" or "to pass near," but in this first use of the word in this text (for there are two times that it appears), it takes on the meaning of "to perish," whereas in its second appearance and use, it takes on the implied meaning of "to pass away without being fulfilled." Therefore, Jesus is not saying that He did not come to do away with the law or prophets, but rather that neither heaven nor earth would pass away before all had been fulfilled in the law and prophets. This is a far cry from what Reformed Theology tells us that the passage means.

Here Christ tells us that not one thing from the law of Moses will pass away, "without being fulfilled." He was speaking in an unusual way, for He is referring to the law of Moses which He Himself had already fulfilled, and more, at His baptism. John at first refused to baptize Jesus because he knew that Jesus didn't need a baptism of repentance, because He was the Messiah - He had never sinned. In Christ the law of Moses was completely fulfilled, but Jesus said to him, "Suffer it to be so now, for this is how we are to fulfill all righteousness," and then John baptized Him. We also know that Jesus fulfilled all the Mosaic law because we have other passages that tell us that He abrogated the law of Moses, and replaced it with the Law of Christ (see Luke 16:16; Eph. 2:15; and Heb. 7:12, 8:13, and 10:9). When looking up these references, remember that the words 'law' and 'covenant' are synonymous - the law is the covenant, and the covenant is the law (see Exo. 24:38 and Deu. 4:13). Another example of Christ speaking this way about something as if it had not yet been fulfilled, when it actually had been fulfilled, is when He said that Elijah was coming, and then a few lines later explained that "Elijah had already come," and then explained that John the Baptist was Elijah. When comparing this text with passages that teach that Christ did fulfill and abrogate the law of Moses, keep in mind that God does not contradict Himself, ever...therefore, the answer will only be found when we take all the passages pertinent to this 'apparent' contradiction, and harmonize them together with each other.

Therefore, even without the correct translation on this passage, if someone knows how to read and study Scripture with even these three basic principles of Biblical interpretation (Topical Principle, Contradiction Principle, Harmony Principle), then they could see that when you have 9 passages clearly telling you that the old law and covenant were abrogated, and 1 passage where it appears that it contradicts 9 others...there is clearly something wrong with the idea that Christ has not abrogated the law of Moses.

Blessings
 
The second death, the death of death itself through the letter of the law. Thou shall not listen to the voice of a stranger but do my will ) or you will die and your earthen body will return to the dust and the temporal spirit given under the letter of the law will return to the one Holy Father of all spirit life

The second death will be cast into the sea of judgment never to rise again and condemn a whole creation. The old things will not be remembered or ever come to mind forever more .

No, there is nothing in Scripture anywhere that teaches that "the death of death itself through the letter of the law," you are pulling that out of a New Age book it sounds like, but not from Scripture. The forum rules say that you are to provide Scripture references for your claims, yet you gave none, I have to ask why...

The you seem to be quoting something in saying, "Thou shall not listen to the voice of a stranger but do my will ) or you will die and your earthen body will return to the dust and the temporal spirit given under the letter of the law will return to the one Holy Father of all spirit life," and this is pure nonsense also. Exactly where do you find this in Scripture, because I have been studying Scripture for 50 years and have never come across this verse or passage...or is this some corrupt version of Scripture that you are reading from?

It appears that you believe some off the wall doctrine that is not supported in Scripture...unless you have passages that you think supports this claim, but you didn't give any. I await your reply.

Blessings
 
No, there is nothing in Scripture anywhere that teaches that "the death of death itself through the letter of the law," you are pulling that out of a New Age book it sounds like, but not from Scripture. The forum rules say that you are to provide Scripture references for your claims, yet you gave none, I have to ask why...

The you seem to be quoting something in saying, "Thou shall not listen to the voice of a stranger but do my will ) or you will die and your earthen body will return to the dust and the temporal spirit given under the letter of the law will return to the one Holy Father of all spirit life," and this is pure nonsense also. Exactly where do you find this in Scripture, because I have been studying Scripture for 50 years and have never come across this verse or passage...or is this some corrupt version of Scripture that you are reading from?

It appears that you believe some off the wall doctrine that is not supported in Scripture...unless you have passages that you think supports this claim, but you didn't give any. I await your reply.

Blessings

New age . . How is that?

It is appointed for all men to die once, No double jeopardy or two trials .

The second death is the death of death itself .It will not be part of the new reformed order. The old things like the letter of the law (thou shall not or you will die) will not be remembered or ever come to mind for ever more .Then we will be under the law of faith the unseen that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

Romans 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

The letter of the law is introduced as death .showing us we were dead in our trespasses and sin without God in this present corrupted world.

Raising up dead men's bones that have no spirit life is not a doctrine of God . It looks to to given breath to the dead so they can continue to suffer, needed for the doctrine of purgatory The Roman sect raised up a Pope (Formosa) dressed up the bones and rebuked dead bones. There is not breath of life after one takes their last breath of oxygen

Genisis 3:3-4 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

Revelation 20:14 And death and hell (suffering) were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Second death. . the death of death itself .It will not raise up in the new creation . Until then not one jot or tittle will be removed and cast into the fiery judgment of the letter .
 
@Dave M

It matters not if this getting together for formal worship is Saturdays or Sundays.
Colossians 2:16 Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath.
17 These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ.

"Shadows are what are called types in Scripture. Some wrongly teach that the Seventh Day Sabbath is not a type, because it is one of the Ten Commandments. This is false, for while the Sabbath was indeed commanded in the Fourth Commandment, yet it is declared by Scripture to be a type of heavenly rest, directly in Heb_4:9, and prefigured by Christ’s invitation to come to Him for rest in Matt_11:29-30,
Since Christ fulfilled the Sabbath type, it is no longer in force, which may well account for the fact that the Fourth Commandment is never once repeated in the NT as a command to be observed by believers under Grace
since the Cross and Resurrection of Christ.

As moral law, nine of the Ten Commandments are repeated under Grace, but not the Fourth Commandment: (1) Act_14:15, (2) 1Jn_5:21, (3) Jas_5:12, (4) Not found under Grace! (5) Eph_6:1, (6) Rom_13:9, 1Jn_3:15, (7) Rom_13:9,
1Co_6:9-10, (8) Rom_13:9, Eph_4:28, (9) Col_3:9, (10) Eph_5:3,
The passages cited are not the only instances of each commandment’s re-assertion in the Epistles; further references may be found at the references given and at the Ten Commandments themselves found in Exodus 20.
See further the enumeration given at Gal_4:10 note. Exo_27:8, Lev_11:24, *Son_2:9, **+Joh_1:17, +*Rom_15:4, **2Co_3:13, **Gal_3:24; **Gal_3:25; **Gal_4:10 note. *Heb_8:5; *Heb_9:9; *Heb_9:23; **Heb_10:1."

from The Ultimate Cross-Reference Treasury by Jerome H. Smith
 
New age . . How is that?

Because you are coming out with stuff that is not in Scripture. I have seen this in other people who call themselves Christians, but who subscribe to the so-called new age "Book of Urantia." You sound a lot like those guys.

It is appointed for all men to die once, No double jeopardy or two trials .

True, but that has absolutely nothing to do with the current conversation.

The second death is the death of death itself .It will not be part of the new reformed order. The old things like the letter of the law (thou shall not or you will die) will not be remembered or ever come to mind for ever more .Then we will be under the law of faith the unseen that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

There you go again...we are under the law of faith NOW, we are to be serving God in the newness of the Spirit NOW. Since you are claiming things (without Scriptural references again) that are NOT part of the Pale of Orthodoxy, what kind of church do you go to...

But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

OK...finally, a reference...but I have to ask from what translation, because none of the ones I have read the way this reads. It is close to the Young's Literal Version, but still off - and even then it is not accurate according to the Greek.

And death and hell (suffering) were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.


You need to be corrected yet again...the word "hell" in this verse does NOT mean "suffering"...exactly what kind of religion do you belong to?

Second death. . the death of death itself .It will not raise up in the new creation . Until then not one jot or tittle will be removed and cast into the fiery judgment of the letter .

I'm giving you one last chance before ending this conversation: Scripture tells us - SCRIPTURE - not your false interpretation of Scripture, that the law of Moses was abrogated; shall I list them all again? For your benefit, so you can amend your personal theology with Scripture:


Matthew 11:12-13
From the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven has suffered violence, and the violent take it by force. For all the Prophets and the Law prophesied until John,

Luke 16:16
The Law and the Prophets were until John; since then the good news of the kingdom of God is preached, and everyone forces his way into it.

Romans 6:14
For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under the law [of Moses] but under grace.

Romans 7:6
But now we are released from the law [of Moses], having died to that which held us captive, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code.

2 Corinthians 3:11
For if what was being brought to an end came with glory, much more will what is permanent have glory.

Ephesians 2:15
by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that He might create in Himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace,

Hebrews 7:18
Because on the one hand, the former law is abrogated because it was weak and useless,

Hebrews 8:13
In that He said a new covenant, He abrogates the first one, and it is abrogated and has become old, and vanishing away as we speak.

Hebrews 10:9
then He added, "Behold, I have come to do your will." He does away with the first in order to establish the second.

If you need me to explain each one, just let me know. Otherwise - these 9 passages tell us clearly and plainly that the old covenant, along with its law, has been abrogated and replaced by the New Covenant and the new Law, the Law of Christ. If you insist upon arguing directly against Scripture, then there's no further reason for us to continue in a dialogue, because if you insist upon ignoring the Truth of God's Word, then there is no basis for continuing.

Blessings.
 
Please try to keep to the material instead of the person.
If you want to get your point across, going for the throat, so to speak, will not do it.


Post in Peace
 
Not my kind of sense...truth. Part of the problem here is a faulty translation, but we will fix that...


Abrogated is abrogated. Did you read the passages that I gave that clearly tells you that the old covenant with its law has been abrogated? If not, go back and read them...they are very clear. The only people the 10 Commandments adhere to today, are those who are not in Christ, just as Paul teaches in Galatians...it is their schoolmaster to show them their need for Christ. The person who is in Christ answers to only one law, the Law of Christ, NOT the law of Moses. As for the passage that you reference without referencing...

Matthew 5:17-18 (ESV)
17 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.
18 For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished.

Unfortunately for the uneducated in Greek, this is not what the original text states, so I will help you here:

Matthew 5:17-18
17 Do not think that I came to destroy the law or the prophets: I did not come to destroy, but to fulfill.
18 Truthfully, I tell you, if heaven and earth perish, not one dot or the smallest stroke of the pen will pass away from the law without being fulfilled.


"if heaven and earth..." = the translation here "if" is arrived at by taking the grammar of the Greek into consideration, where it is usually ignored in word-for-word translations. It is the Greek word heos which basically means "until," but when it is followed by the particle "an" as it is in this text, it indicates mere probability, not certainty, of the action addressed; this is particularly true (in this case as well) when the word is immediately followed by a verb in the Subjunctive mood. Therefore, it takes on the meaning of "if" and not "until."

Secondly, the word "perish" comes from the first appearance of the word parerchomai (παρέρχομαι), which has the basic meaning of "to pass away" or "to pass near," but in this first use of the word in this text (for there are two times that it appears), it takes on the meaning of "to perish," whereas in its second appearance and use, it takes on the implied meaning of "to pass away without being fulfilled." Therefore, Jesus is not saying that He did not come to do away with the law or prophets, but rather that neither heaven nor earth would pass away before all had been fulfilled in the law and prophets. This is a far cry from what Reformed Theology tells us that the passage means.

Here Christ tells us that not one thing from the law of Moses will pass away, "without being fulfilled." He was speaking in an unusual way, for He is referring to the law of Moses which He Himself had already fulfilled, and more, at His baptism. John at first refused to baptize Jesus because he knew that Jesus didn't need a baptism of repentance, because He was the Messiah - He had never sinned. In Christ the law of Moses was completely fulfilled, but Jesus said to him, "Suffer it to be so now, for this is how we are to fulfill all righteousness," and then John baptized Him. We also know that Jesus fulfilled all the Mosaic law because we have other passages that tell us that He abrogated the law of Moses, and replaced it with the Law of Christ (see Luke 16:16; Eph. 2:15; and Heb. 7:12, 8:13, and 10:9). When looking up these references, remember that the words 'law' and 'covenant' are synonymous - the law is the covenant, and the covenant is the law (see Exo. 24:38 and Deu. 4:13). Another example of Christ speaking this way about something as if it had not yet been fulfilled, when it actually had been fulfilled, is when He said that Elijah was coming, and then a few lines later explained that "Elijah had already come," and then explained that John the Baptist was Elijah. When comparing this text with passages that teach that Christ did fulfill and abrogate the law of Moses, keep in mind that God does not contradict Himself, ever...therefore, the answer will only be found when we take all the passages pertinent to this 'apparent' contradiction, and harmonize them together with each other.

Therefore, even without the correct translation on this passage, if someone knows how to read and study Scripture with even these three basic principles of Biblical interpretation (Topical Principle, Contradiction Principle, Harmony Principle), then they could see that when you have 9 passages clearly telling you that the old law and covenant were abrogated, and 1 passage where it appears that it contradicts 9 others...there is clearly something wrong with the idea that Christ has not abrogated the law of Moses.

I have the correct translation .I have never heard what you are offering in all the years I have studied .The idea of no need for a moral compass. where there is no law mankind perishes (anarchy) ??

Why would a person try and make all things written in the law and or with prophets. It sounds like you are trying to separation the law from the prophets.

The whole Bible (sola scriptura) is called the book of the law.

The law and the prophets as it is written (sola scriptural) .The whole Bible is the law spoken of in which not a jot or tittle could be removed.. Not one jot or tittle could be removed until (not if) the new order, no longer under the Sun .New heaven and earth not rebuilt or reconditioned.

The law of God is signified as the law of Moses (its not Moses law) as if he was not inspired from above. Its not Moses private interpretation as a personal commentary .We all have one

.The law of Moses it is not separate from the prophets . To the law and the prophets if mankind speak not according to the whole Bible as the letter of the law we are to not abide in their teaching. No law ( Moses) , no testimony prophets . No testimony no gospel

Isaiah 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, (singular one law) it is because there is no light in them.

Hiding behind the idea that unfortunately for the uneducated in Greek does not change the the true meaning of the law by adding if A word like if heaven and earth pass away .the word if causes doubt and wondering . . . not faith the unseen according to the law seen.

They must be mixed if we are to have rest with Christ

Yes the wage of sin "eternal damnation never to rise to new life" has been abrogated. The law itself is not abrogated not one jot or tittle could be removed until the last day under the sun .Not If. (the doctrine of wondering )

Abrogated is abrogated.

Heaven and earth will perish, not one dot or the smallest stroke of the pen will pass away from the law without being fulfilled. no if heaven and earth pass away .

Adding the word if ( if heaven and earth perish) shows someone has violated the warning in respect adding a new meaning . Changing the meaning is shown as plagiarism a violation of the first commandment . Have no other gods as supposed authors before the one author of Christian faith (Christ.) and another warning at the end of the book of prophecy now that we have the perfect.. with no ifs.

The law of God protecting the integrity of the finger of God as it is written

Deuteronomy 4:2 Ye shall not add unto the word (singular) which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it,(singular) that ye may keep the commandments (plural) of the Lord your God which I command you.

Why avoid the moral law? It continues to be the moral compass for a believer.
 
Because you are coming out with stuff that is not in Scripture. I have seen this in other people who call themselves Christians, but who subscribe to the so-called new age "Book of Urantia." You sound a lot like those guys.



True, but that has absolutely nothing to do with the current conversation.



There you go again...we are under the law of faith NOW, we are to be serving God in the newness of the Spirit NOW. Since you are claiming things (without Scriptural references again) that are NOT part of the Pale of Orthodoxy, what kind of church do you go to...

https://biblia.com/bible/nlt/Rom 7.6

OK...finally, a reference...but I have to ask from what translation, because none of the ones I have read the way this reads. It is close to the Young's Literal Version, but still off - and even then it is not accurate according to the Greek.

https://biblia.com/bible/nlt/Rev 20.14


You need to be corrected yet again...the word "hell" in this verse does NOT mean "suffering"...exactly what kind of religion do you belong to?



I'm giving you one last chance before ending this conversation: Scripture tells us - SCRIPTURE - not your false interpretation of Scripture, that the law of Moses was abrogated; shall I list them all again? For your benefit, so you can amend your personal theology with Scripture:


Matthew 11:12-13
From the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven has suffered violence, and the violent take it by force. For all the Prophets and the Law prophesied until John,

Luke 16:16
The Law and the Prophets were until John; since then the good news of the kingdom of God is preached, and everyone forces his way into it.

Romans 6:14
For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under the law [of Moses] but under grace.

Romans 7:6
But now we are released from the law [of Moses], having died to that which held us captive, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code.

2 Corinthians 3:11
For if what was being brought to an end came with glory, much more will what is permanent have glory.

Ephesians 2:15
by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that He might create in Himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace,

Hebrews 7:18
Because on the one hand, the former law is abrogated because it was weak and useless,

Hebrews 8:13
In that He said a new covenant, He abrogates the first one, and it is abrogated and has become old, and vanishing away as we speak.

Hebrews 10:9
then He added, "Behold, I have come to do your will." He does away with the first in order to establish the second.

If you need me to explain each one, just let me know. Otherwise - these 9 passages tell us clearly and plainly that the old covenant, along with its law, has been abrogated and replaced by the New Covenant and the new Law, the Law of Christ. If you insist upon arguing directly against Scripture, then there's no further reason for us to continue in a dialogue, because if you insist upon ignoring the Truth of God's Word, then there is no basis for continuing.

Blessings.


The book of Urania is a false gospel .

Its appointed for all to die once (the wage of sin) according to the letter of the law (death). then come the judgment . Not judging dead bones like the Pope Formosa trial .no double jeopardy . die once. Born twice for some .

The letter of the law death it will be cast into the fiery judgment of God never to rise again and condemn the whole creation through corruption .(death of death) Those yoked with Christ do receive rest in there suffering (hell)

You said True to the one appointment , but then you said that has absolutely nothing to do with the current conversation. What you claim as nothing is the very key that unlocks the mysteries hid in parables .

.It has everything to do with our conversation.

Again it was a hierarchy of venerable men who lorded it over the understanding of the non vereable that tried to prove a person could continue to suffer the pangs of hell after they take their last breath and must continue to suffer the pangs of hell with no end (salvation) in sight ... (limbo purgatory) teaching that only a queen of heaven received the fulness of grace the wage of sin every other a unknow remnant and they must continue to suffer the pangs of hell .

Are you promoting a queen of heaven?

Jesus like Jonas experrnced a living sufferings of hell neither one died and neither where reincarnated . Both sufferer the pangs of hell.

Jonah 2 King James Version Then Jonah prayed unto the Lord his God out of the fish's belly, And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the Lord, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice. (God does not hear the dead the "purgatory doctrine") For thou hadst cast me into the deep, in the midst of the seas; and the floods compassed me about: all thy billows and thy waves passed over me. Then I said, I am cast out of thy sight; yet I will look again toward thy holy temple.
 
I have the correct translation .I have never heard what you are offering in all the years I have studied .The idea of no need for a moral compass. where there is no law mankind perishes (anarchy) ??

Actually, you do not - not according to the original language. Then, perhaps you have not ever been taught the correct way to read and study Scripture. If you do not use a complete Biblical hermeneutic, then you have not been.

I said nothing about a moral compass, and you evidently are not listening. I never said that we are without law, I explicitly stated that today Christians (not the world) are under the Law of Christ. Perhaps you need to re-read what I wrote.


Why would a person try and make all things written in the law and or with prophets. It sounds like you are trying to separation the law from the prophets.


Please go back and re-read what I said again, because I said no such thing...nor did I imply any such thing. You are reading into what I said things that I did not say, just like you did with Scripture.


The whole Bible (sola scriptura) is called the book of the law.


Nope. There are some times where the whole of the OT is referenced by law, but not the whole Bible itself. If you think there is a passage that addresses the whole Bible as the law, then please provide it, because you failed to do so again. Also, sola scriptura does not mean the whole Bible, it means Scripture alone...where do you get that from? Because you do not get it from the Bible.


The law and the prophets as it is written (sola scriptural) .The whole Bible is the law spoken of in which not a jot or tittle could be removed.. Not one jot or tittle could be removed until (not if) the new order, no longer under the Sun .New heaven and earth not rebuilt or reconditioned.


I don't know where you claim to have studied Scripture from, but thus far practically everything you have given is out the window as far as Scripture is concerned. Jesus did not address the whole Bible when He spoke Mat. 5:17-18, He was only addressing the law of Moses and the prophecies that had to do with announcing the coming Messiah.


.The law of Moses it is not separate from the prophets . To the law and the prophets if mankind speak not according to the whole Bible as the letter of the law we are to not abide in their teaching. No law ( Moses) , no testimony prophets . No testimony no gospel


Again, you make absolutely no sense at all. Here's a hint for you...if there is no difference between the law and the prophets, then they would be addressed by a singular term, not "the law and the prophets." I don't know where you are getting this stuff from, but it is not from the Pale of Orthodoxy.


Hiding behind the idea that unfortunately for the uneducated in Greek does not change the the true meaning of the law by adding if A word like if heaven and earth pass away .the word if causes doubt and wondering . . . not faith the unseen according to the law seen.


There is no hiding anything, and since you demonstrate yourself to not want to listen to truth, but only defend your bias, this conversation is over.
 
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