Limited atonement !

[Brightfame52]

Reconciled to God based upon Non Imputation of their trespasses. When ?

When did God in Christ purpose not to impute their trespasses unto them ? Certainly it was before the world began ? How can we be certain from scripture ? Well if we read 1 Pet 1 we will fid that Christ redemptively had been foreordained before the world began 1 Pet 1:18-20

18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;


19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:


20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

What was He foreordained for before the foundation of the world ? To redeem certain sinners from their sins. What sins ? Sins that were laid to His Charge. Now if God purposed that Christ would come in time [be manifested] to redeem them from sin, it had to be determine that their sins would be charged to Him before the world began, which consequently means they re sins would not be charged to them before the world began, hence God was in Christ reconciling them to Himself not imputing their sins to them !

 

[Brightfame52]

My apologies that my post confused you. But you have made assertions based upon grammar that you don't seem to understand. Unfortunately, I don't have the time to teach you Greek, and I don't believe that you have the inclination to learn.


(Well that certainly sounds confused to me.)


NO IT DOESN'T.

Are you the light of the world? OR...

Ye are the light of any aggregate or general collection of particulars of any sort. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.​

(Matthew 5:14 KJV)

I provide for you the LINK to the Liddell Scott Greek Lexicon for "World"

A IV. Philos., world-order, universe,​

Rhema
Bright, you can't make up your own definitions.

Apparently you haven't a clue what the definitions of world are from the lexicon kosmos:

1. world affairs, the aggregate of things earthly
   
   1. the whole circle of earthly goods, endowments riches, advantages, pleasures, etc, which although hollow and frail and fleeting, stir desire, seduce from God and are obstacles to the cause of Christ
2. any aggregate or general collection of particulars of any sort
   
   1. the Gentiles as contrasted to the Jews (Rom. 11:12 etc)
3. G2889 - kosmos - Strong's Greek Lexicon (kjv)

 

[Rhema]

Apparently you haven't a clue what the definitions of world are from the lexicon kosmos:

Your points 1 & 2 come from this source:

The Outline of Biblical Usage was created by Larry Pierce, creator of the Online Bible, and is used with permission. For further​

information on this tool, click here.​

So who the crap is "Larry Pierce"?

BLB Strong's Help Tutorial

BLB added about 15,000 corrections in the Strong's concordance by using the work of Larry Pierce making additions to both our Hebrew and Greek Lexicon pages

www.blueletterbible.org

You'll note he bases his work on Thayer's Lexicon, which was obsolete before it was even published.

"Larry Pierce combined what Dr. Strong cited with Smith's Bible Dictionary and Dr. Thayer cited in his abridged Thayer's 1889 Greek-English Lexicon."​

Larry has no academic credibility as far as I can tell, but just pasted together pieces from other sources that are not the best, and even edited Thayer's work according to his own ideas.

"Online Bible also altered Thayer's definitions"​

But because Blue Letter Bible is on the internet it HAS to be right, eh?

You then give point 3 -

3. G2889 - kosmos - Strong's Greek Lexicon (kjv)

But Strong never produced a lexicon. He produced a concordance and a numbering system for Greek words. THAT's why you see "STRONGS G2889:" under the title heading of "Thayer's Greek Lexicon". It's just telling you the Strong number for Thayer's entry.


So... apparently you haven't a clue how to read your own citation, or know a good lexicon from a bad one.

1. Larry Pierces notes are NOT a lexicon
2. Strongs is NOT a lexicon
3. Your citation is based on Thayer's lexicon, one that is not used by any credible scholar.

That's why I linked to a credible Greek Lexicon, the Liddell Scott as hosted by Tufts University Boston.

Rhema

 

[Brightfame52]

The imperative Paul gives in 2 Cor 5:20

20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.

Its not to all men without exception as some falsely assume and teach, but to them that God hasn't imputed sin unto Vs 19 and to them that by virtue of the fact Christ was made a sin offering for, and thereby made the righteousness of God in Him 2 Cor 5:21

21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

So the imperative in Vs 20

" be ye reconciled to God"is to men and women who have the righteousness of God charged to them or imputed, and this is the word of reconciliation or the Gospel preached to them Vs 19

19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation/Gospel.

And this Gospel or word of reconciliation reveals to them through the power of the Holy Spirit the righteousness of God they have imputed to them Rom 1:17

17 For therein[The Gospel] is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

So the imperative " be ye reconciled to God" is actually God through the preached word bringing the reconciled to Faith in Christ who has been made sin for them.

Faith cometh by hearing the word of reconciliation/Gospel Rom 10:17. They will come to believe it after God the Holy Spirit reveals it to them :

For therein[The Gospel] is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: The word for revealed here means:

1. to make known, make manifest, disclose what before was unknown
   
   The righteousness of God they have by virtue of the fact that Christ was made sin for them, is not known naturally, but must must be revealed ! And so when revealed the Truth of it is received in the mind, will, and affections of that individual , and they commence the Life of Faith, for its written:
   
   17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. 4

 

[Brightfame52]

Your points 1 & 2 come from this source:

The Outline of Biblical Usage was created by Larry Pierce, creator of the Online Bible, and is used with permission. For further​

information on this tool, click here.​

So who the crap is "Larry Pierce"?

BLB Strong's Help Tutorial

BLB added about 15,000 corrections in the Strong's concordance by using the work of Larry Pierce making additions to both our Hebrew and Greek Lexicon pages

www.blueletterbible.org

You'll note he bases his work on Thayer's Lexicon, which was obsolete before it was even published.

"Larry Pierce combined what Dr. Strong cited with Smith's Bible Dictionary and Dr. Thayer cited in his abridged Thayer's 1889 Greek-English Lexicon."​

Larry has no academic credibility as far as I can tell, but just pasted together pieces from other sources that are not the best, and even edited Thayer's work according to his own ideas.

"Online Bible also altered Thayer's definitions"​

But because Blue Letter Bible is on the internet it HAS to be right, eh?

You then give point 3 -

But Strong never produced a lexicon. He produced a concordance and a numbering system for Greek words. THAT's why you see "STRONGS G2889:" under the title heading of "Thayer's Greek Lexicon". It's just telling you the Strong number for Thayer's entry.


So... apparently you haven't a clue how to read your own citation, or know a good lexicon from a bad one.

1. Larry Pierces notes are NOT a lexicon
2. Strongs is NOT a lexicon
3. Your citation is based on Thayer's lexicon, one that is not used by any credible scholar.

That's why I linked to a credible Greek Lexicon, the Liddell Scott as hosted by Tufts University Boston.

Rhema

So you refuse the proof, thats on you

 

[Rhema]

So you refuse the proof, thats on you

So you refuse the refutation of your proof, that's on you.

Neither you nor your "sources" have the right to change the definitions of words, or alter the grammar of the language. Yet they've done so, as I clearly pointed out.

Rhema

(For all else to know.)

 

[Rhema]

The imperative Paul gives in 2 Cor 5:20

20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.

Why would Paul need to give a command in the imperative for people to do something if they were already saved by some "election" before creation?

That just doesn't make sense to sane people.

Rhema

 

[Brightfame52]

Why would Paul need to give a command in the imperative for people to do something if they were already saved by some "election" before creation?

That just doesn't make sense to sane people.

Rhema

I already posted why!

 

[Rhema]

I already posted why!

One would have wished your "why" to make sense.
But no mind.

Rhema

 

[Brightfame52]

The deadly consequences of denying limited atonement !​

2 Tim 3:5

Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

By Limited Atonement I mean that Christ Saving Death was and is for only some of mankind in the eternal purpose of God in Christ Jesus. God hath sovereignly limited the efficacy of His Sons Death to save only some, hence leaving the rest to perish in their sins ! Rom 11:7

What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

Now what did the Election obtain ? This 2 Tim 2:10

10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

They obtain Salvation which is in Christ Jesus with Eternal Glory !

Now, once anyone denies limited atonement, that Christ's saving death was only for some and not for all without exception, and doeth falsely teach that Christ's death was for all without exception, yet knowing that all without exception shall not obtain Salvation with Eternal Glory which is in Christ Jesus:

Then they are guilty of denying that Salvation is 100 % conditioned on the Person and Work of Jesus Christ. There's no way around that fact. Either Christ's Saving death was only for some, and all of that some are saved, or it was for all without exception, and in some degree Salvation is conditioned upon man, something he must do. Once that element of what man does enters the equation to make Salvation a reality, Salvation is no more 100% conditioned on Christ alone, which deny's the power of the Gospel !Hence the deadly consequences of denying limited atonement !

 

[Rhema]

Either Christ's Saving death was only for some, and all of that some are saved, or it was for all without exception, and in some degree Salvation is conditioned upon man, something he must do.

Very good. I think you're finally beginning to get it.

Now... what does the word IF mean?

For IF ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: But IF ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.​

(Matthew 6:14-15 KJV)

Then said Jesus unto his disciples, IF any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.​

(Matthew 16:24 KJV)

Was Jesus lying here?

Jesus said unto him, IF thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.​

(Matthew 19:21 KJV)

And he said to them all, IF any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.​

(Luke 9:23 KJV)

I am the living bread which came down from heaven: IF any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.​

(John 6:51 KJV)

In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, IF any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.​

(John 7:37-38 KJV)

Verily, verily, I say unto you, IF a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.​

(John 8:51 KJV)

I am the door: by me IF any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.​

(John 10:9 KJV)

IF any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will my Father honour.​

(John 12:26 KJV)

.... something he must do'

OF COURSE there is something YOU MUST DO. Even CHRIST told you that !!!

IF ye know these things, happy are ye IF ye do them.​

(John 13:17 KJV)

IF ye love me, keep my commandments.​

(John 14:15 KJV)

IF ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.​

(John 15:10 KJV)

And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say? Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like:​

(Luke 6:46-47 KJV)

Read what is actually written, Bright. IF you only would.

Rhema

 

[Brightfame52]

Very good. I think you're finally beginning to get it.

Now... what does the word IF mean?

For IF ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: But IF ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.​

(Matthew 6:14-15 KJV)

Then said Jesus unto his disciples, IF any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.​

(Matthew 16:24 KJV)

Was Jesus lying here?

Jesus said unto him, IF thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.​

(Matthew 19:21 KJV)

And he said to them all, IF any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.​

(Luke 9:23 KJV)

I am the living bread which came down from heaven: IF any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.​

(John 6:51 KJV)

In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, IF any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.​

(John 7:37-38 KJV)

Verily, verily, I say unto you, IF a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.​

(John 8:51 KJV)

I am the door: by me IF any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.​

(John 10:9 KJV)

IF any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will my Father honour.​

(John 12:26 KJV)


OF COURSE there is something YOU MUST DO. Even CHRIST told you that !!!

IF ye know these things, happy are ye IF ye do them.​

(John 13:17 KJV)

IF ye love me, keep my commandments.​

(John 14:15 KJV)

IF ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.​

(John 15:10 KJV)

And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say? Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like:​

(Luke 6:46-47 KJV)

Read what is actually written, Bright. IF you only would.

Rhema

Okay so you obviously believe Salvation is conditioned on what man does, thats works based salvation, condemned by God

 

[B-A-C]

is conditioned on what man does, thats works based salvation, condemned by God

Where?

Jas 2:19 You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder.
Jas 2:20 But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?
Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?
Jas 2:22 You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected;
Jas 2:23 and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS," and he was called the friend of God.
Jas 2:24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Where does the Bible say faith "alone" is enough? The word "alone" is not in Eph 2:8-9;

Matt 25:26 "But his master answered and said to him, 'You wicked, lazy slave, you knew that I reap where I did not sow and gather where I scattered no seed.
Matt 25:27 'Then you ought to have put my money in the bank, and on my arrival I would have received my money back with interest.
Matt 25:28 'Therefore take away the talent from him, and give it to the one who has the ten talents.'
Matt 25:29 "For to everyone who has, more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but from the one who does not have, even what he does have shall be taken away.
Matt 25:30 "Throw out the worthless slave into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

The other two slaves were told "well done, you were good and faithful", why was this slave called wicked and lazy, and thrown out?

Matt 25:41 "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;
Matt 25:42 for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink;
Matt 25:44 "Then they themselves also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?'
Matt 25:45 "Then He will answer them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.'
Matt 25:46 "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

Why do the goats go to eternal punishment, but the sheep do not?

John 5:28 "Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
John 5:29 and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

One group gets eternal life, the other group gets judgment. What is the difference between these two groups? What they said they believed, or what they did?

 

[Brightfame52]

Where?

Jas 2:19 You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder.
Jas 2:20 But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?
Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?
Jas 2:22 You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected;
Jas 2:23 and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS," and he was called the friend of God.
Jas 2:24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Where does the Bible say faith "alone" is enough? The word "alone" is not in Eph 2:8-9;

Matt 25:26 "But his master answered and said to him, 'You wicked, lazy slave, you knew that I reap where I did not sow and gather where I scattered no seed.
Matt 25:27 'Then you ought to have put my money in the bank, and on my arrival I would have received my money back with interest.
Matt 25:28 'Therefore take away the talent from him, and give it to the one who has the ten talents.'
Matt 25:29 "For to everyone who has, more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but from the one who does not have, even what he does have shall be taken away.
Matt 25:30 "Throw out the worthless slave into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

The other two slaves were told "well done, you were good and faithful", why was this slave called wicked and lazy, and thrown out?

Matt 25:41 "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;
Matt 25:42 for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink;
Matt 25:44 "Then they themselves also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?'
Matt 25:45 "Then He will answer them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.'
Matt 25:46 "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

Why do the goats go to eternal punishment, but the sheep do not?

John 5:28 "Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
John 5:29 and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

One group gets eternal life, the other group gets judgment. What is the difference between these two groups? What they said they believed, or what they did?

What you mean where ?

 

[Rhema]

Okay so you obviously believe Salvation is conditioned on what man does, thats works based salvation, condemned by God

What you mean where ?

Where is "works based" salvation condemned by God in scripture?

@B-A-C provided scripture for serious consideration. (Thank you.)

Jas 2:24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

John 5:29 and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

There is one from the Master that I would add:

For by thy LOGOS thou shalt be justified, and by thy LOGOS thou shalt be condemned.​

(Matthew 12:37 KJV)

Nay, two that I would add.

And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say? Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my LOGOS, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like:​

(Luke 6:46-47 KJV)

Would you contradict Jesus about doing the LOGOS he taught?

Rhema

 

[Brightfame52]

Where is "works based" salvation condemned by God in scripture?

@B-A-C provided scripture for serious consideration. (Thank you.)



There is one from the Master that I would add:

For by thy LOGOS thou shalt be justified, and by thy LOGOS thou shalt be condemned.​

(Matthew 12:37 KJV)

Nay, two that I would add.

And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say? Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my LOGOS, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like:​

(Luke 6:46-47 KJV)

Would you contradict Jesus about doing the LOGOS he taught?

Rhema

You dont know salvation is by Grace instead of works ? Eph 2:8-9

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Not of works, lest any man should boast.

You saying it is of works, contrary to Gods word

 

[B-A-C]

You saying it is of works, contrary to Gods word

How you get saved is one thing. You can't earn or work for that.
How you maintain salvation after you are saved in another thing.

You've given one verse that says we aren't saved by works.
I've given over a dozen that say you better have some works behind you when you get to heaven.

Who is more contrary to God's word? Being against 1 verse, or being against a dozen verses?

 

[Brightfame52]

How you get saved is one thing. You can't earn or work for that.
How you maintain salvation after you are saved in another thing.

You've given one verse that says we aren't saved by works.
I've given over a dozen that say you better have some works behind you when you get to heaven.

Who is more contrary to God's word? Being against 1 verse, or being against a dozen verses?

All of Salvation is by Grace from A to Z, if you condition any part of salvation on works, you forfeit your claim to grace.

 

[B-A-C]

All of Salvation is by Grace from A to Z, if you condition any part of salvation on works, you forfeit your claim to grace.

according to you, but not the Bible.

 

[Brightfame52]

according to you, but not the Bible.

Salvation is by Grace not of works according to the scripture Eph 2:8-9

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

You want to boast