There's no arguing with the UR, no need to, they haven't got a single fact from Scripture that would lead anyone to believe their claims.
LITERAL Hellfire Torment—Not A Bible Teaching
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There's no arguing with the UR, no need to, they haven't got a single fact from Scripture that would lead anyone to believe their claims.
Alter2Ego
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Universal Restoration, that crowd that believes forever doesn't mean forever.
Alter2Ego
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Okay. But what has that to do with the fact that hellfire torment is not literal based on scripture in God's inspired word, the Bible?
BTW: When the Bible says people will suffer everlasting punishment, it's talking about annihilation aka permanent destruction. The Bible offers two options for humanity: death or everlasting life.
If you don't believe me read Romans 6:23.
Alter2Ego
Don't send that junk my way with your perverted interpretations.
KingJ
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You did. Reread.
Then post your belief. I ''alterego'' believe X, Y and Z.
Bob Carabbio
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True -
of course. how about mat 13:49,50
Nope. ALL PEOPLE are "Wicked", but predicated on the SIN OFFERING of Jesus on the cross, those who put their FAITH in that sacrifice for the cleansing of their SIN will avoid Hell / the lake of fire.
The EXACT nature of HELL / Lake of fire isn't completely defined, BUT both places exist, they are completely undesirable. and those who are not Born Again of the Holy Spirit will go there. "FIRE" is is a question - i.e. how do you "Burn" a Spirit?? butnot a place I would care to end up for eternity in any case.
Alter2Ego
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King:
I stated my belief in my opening post. Let me repeat it here. This time, I will bold in yellow the position I have taken based upon scripture, starting with paragraph 1 of my OP.
Also notice the words in paragraph 2 of my OP that I am bolding in light blue.
To make sure you get it this time around, let me break it down.
1: Literal hellfire torment is not supported by scripture in God's inspired word the Bible.
2. Almighty God Jehovah would have to be a sadist if he were to torture people in literal flames for all eternity.
3. Torturing people for all eternity for wrongdoings they committed during the brief human defames the Creator (gives him a bad name).
4. The dead would have to be aware that they are burning and would have to be able to literally experience pain, despite being dead.
Now, suppose you produce your first three scriptures that contradict points 1 to 4 above. Thus far, you produced two parables (the story of the Rich Man and Lazarus at Luke 16, and the parable of the sheep and the goats and their ultimate end at Matthew 25:46). Parables are fictitious stories.
Alter2Ego
Alter2Ego
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Bob Carabbio:
Matthew 13:49-50 is part of Jesus' parable of the net that was used to catch fish. The parable begins at Matthew 13:47.
Matthew 13:47
“Again the Kingdom of the heavens is like a dragnet let down into the sea and gathering fish of every kind.Matthew 13:48
When it was full, they hauled it up onto the beach, and sitting down, they collected the fine ones into containers, but the unsuitable they threw away.Matthew 13:49
That is how it will be in the conclusion of the system of things. The angels will go out and separate the wicked from among the righteousMatthew 13:50
and will cast them into the fiery furnace. There is where their weeping and the gnashing of their teeth will be.A parable is a fictitious story which is used to demonstrate a point.
Bob Carabbio:
Please quote scripture that shows that all people are wicked.
Alter2Ego
B-A-C
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Not necessarily fictitious. But always used with a "real life" example. A man had a son, or a slave, or a vineyard, a Levite walked by, etc.. all things that have happened in real life to someone.
A parable never uses hyperbole or metaphors.
Alter2Ego
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B-A-C:
The dictionary and other sources define a parable as a story that is not true.
": a usually short fictitious story that illustrates a moral attitude or a religious principle
the Biblical parable of the Good Samaritan"
Definition of PARABLE
a usually short fictitious story that illustrates a moral attitude or a religious principle; also : something (such as a news story or a series of real events) likened to a parable in providing an instructive example or lesson… See the full definition
www.merriam-webster.com
Alter2Ego
KingJ
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When I say 'state your belief' I am referring to you explaining what you believe happens to the lost when they die.
In this thread, which option do you choose? What to expect in hell
Curtis
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Isa 66:22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.
Isa 66:23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.
Isa 66:24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.
Who are these people in verse 24?
Isa 66:23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.
Isa 66:24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.
Who are these people in verse 24?
B-A-C
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Yes "usually" I agree.
MedicBravo
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Oh really?
So you're on person and by what authority?
Three times you have listed a specific required answer: "literal hellfire torment".
There are many verses about it and Jesus spoke more on it than anyone else.
Hell goes by many names not just Hell.
"Blazing/fiery furnace" - Matthew 13:50
"Unending fire" - Mark 9:43
"Eternal fire" - Jude 1:7
"Lake of fire" - Revelation 20:14
The whole "hellfire and damnation" thing is very real.
KingJ
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I partially agree.
God is good Psalm 136:1. Righteous in all His ways Psalm 145:17. As such, He will never be behind torture of the wicked in hell. As I explain here Discussion on Torture.
But there must be a punishment for sin. Fire is His chosen method of punishment for sin.
If you read my OP here What to expect in hell, you will see how I explain that punishment will be according to what you do.
Luke 16 is the only passage in the entirety of scripture that goes into detail, clearly describing how a spiritual body endures fire. It is not torture. A far cry from something like a brazen bull for example. But it is, as scripture says, ''agonizing''. It is an unpleasant experience.
Now if you read my OP in that thread you will see that scripture supports the fact that one can expect an initial session in agonizing fire and then a session every time you sin. Those in hell are separated due to their love of evil and inability to repent of their sins, they will continue in acts of evil from time to time for all eternity. This is why you will need fire to be around as a form of punishment for all eternity.
What most Christians infer is 100% defamation of God. God does 'NOT' torture, fullstop.
So, I do like that you err against torture, but am truly battling to properly understand what exactly you then do believe.
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MedicBravo
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How is a soul burning NOT torture?
People wrongly ASSume there must be something person/demon doing it.
God does NOT send people to Hell.
1. He has rules and punishments for breaking the rules.
2. Hell is NOT simply just "knowing God is real 100% and being in Hell without Him for eternity."
3. Satan and his kind will be cast into Fire; eternal tourment.
4. Jesus spoke more on Hell than anyone.
What Does the Bible Say About Jesus Say About Hell?
Bible verses about Jesus Say About Hell
As such anyone's opinion is just that.
The Truth doesn't come from anyone here. It comes from God and what' He's said on anything. Opinions otherwise are irrelevant.
Curtis
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Isaiah 9:18 FOR SIN BURNS LIKE A FIRE. It burns thistles, and thorns. It sets the woods on fire, and they go up in the smoke (NLV)
We normally don't think of sin as being a fire. I wonder how the flames of hell and or the lake of fire continue on forever? Is the fire of sin from all who will be there be its source throughout eternity? The sin that is never quenched causes the torment of these souls.
Is sin eternal that can never be put out? IF SIN IS THE TRANSGRESSION OF THE LAW of God, (And it is), and since the earth will pass away God's word will never pass away. We can be assured that sin will never pass away because God's word will never pass away that describes it!
We normally don't think of sin as being a fire. I wonder how the flames of hell and or the lake of fire continue on forever? Is the fire of sin from all who will be there be its source throughout eternity? The sin that is never quenched causes the torment of these souls.
Is sin eternal that can never be put out? IF SIN IS THE TRANSGRESSION OF THE LAW of God, (And it is), and since the earth will pass away God's word will never pass away. We can be assured that sin will never pass away because God's word will never pass away that describes it!
MedicBravo
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Countless things are beyond our understanding in this.
The human mind can NOT understand Heaven or Hell. God face to face.
How God is three but three as one.
Fire represents many thing and in the Bible, purification for example.
IMO and experience in learning:
Hell is fire and damnation. The soul and and does experience pain and physical needs.
Luke 16:24 "And he called out, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.’
Luke 16:21 Laazarus and the rich man
Luke 16:22-23 Lazarus and the rich man in Hades
"“So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.”
24-26 "The rich man's plea. "“Then he cried and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.’ But Abraham said, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.’”
Whatever form the non-Heaven afterlife IS and has been, pain and suffering and torment are part of it.
The human mind can NOT understand Heaven or Hell. God face to face.
How God is three but three as one.
Fire represents many thing and in the Bible, purification for example.
IMO and experience in learning:
Hell is fire and damnation. The soul and and does experience pain and physical needs.
Luke 16:24 "And he called out, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.’
Luke 16:21 Laazarus and the rich man
Luke 16:22-23 Lazarus and the rich man in Hades
"“So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.”
24-26 "The rich man's plea. "“Then he cried and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.’ But Abraham said, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.’”
Whatever form the non-Heaven afterlife IS and has been, pain and suffering and torment are part of it.
KingJ
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In Luke 16 we read of the rich man holding a conversation with Abraham and asking him to put his finger in water and place it in his mouth.
This is not something that someone in a brazen bull would do or ask for.
Now, when you or anyone else implies the latter, just because you read '''fire''', you need to be very careful. Because you are misrepresenting God and scripture to the lost.
There is simply no way to defend God as good if He tortures. God is good. Please meditate on this fact before you reply.
I don't believe this at all. God is not a fool that would give demons power over humans in hell to torture them. That would be the same as Him doing it. There is absolutely no scripture that even suggests this. It is a terrible picture and assumption that many have drawn. Completely unscriptural.
He does. The devil and the fallen angels would much rather be in heaven with good people and animals. God cast them out of heaven and will cast them into hell.
Yes. Wages of sin is death. Death according to scripture is out of His presence.
We know there is a bit more to eternal punishment as I explain in my OP here What to expect in hell.
You assuming what I believe. God / Jesus and saints can go anywhere. Is that not a duh fact?
The issue is that the wicked can't. Just like criminals, you can't let them out of prison. It is their nature and choice to live in sin unrepentant.
Cast into a place called the lake of fire. A home for the wicked. One where they will be punished according to what they did and do.
You need better discernment. To assume it is as simple a place as '''place person A in fire and have them scream and burn for all eternity, like one in a brazen bull'' is the equivalent of Adam and Eve thinking earth would only be permanent pain and suffering, when God said ' 1. Pain in childbirth, 2. Husband will rule over wife, 3. Cursed ground, 4. Dust to dust / no eternal life on earth. That is clearly NOT the A-Z of earth. You have a terribly lazy discernment of God and scripture. You cannot cherry pick the word ''fire'' more out of its context.
4. Jesus spoke more on Hell than anyone.
What Does the Bible Say About Jesus Say About Hell?
Bible verses about Jesus Say About Hellwww.openbible.info
As such anyone's opinion is just that.
Medic, this is more lazy discernment. Of course hell is an important topic. What is your point? It is a place of suffering. Eternal separation, fire when you sin, life with wicked people who don't desire repentance. BUT yet this is not CRUEL enough for some ''''''''''''''''''''''''Christians'''''''''''''''''''''''. Imagine that. Shocking!!!
So, your synopsis is......since Jesus taught so much on it, it must be the equivalent of placing a person in a brazen bull for all eternity. C'mon, please discern better.
Agreed, stop quoting your opinion. Like BAC you cherry pick all verses that mention fire and do not grasp context or the rest of scripture that defines God. You just go ahead and completely and utterly misrepresent Him, thinking you are doing Him and scripture a good service. You could not fail harder as a Christian then to teach the lost that He loved and died for that He sit atop a list of the most evil beings to ever live. When scripture says it is UNTHINKABLE that God would do what is wicked Job 34:12. Now, if you think fire is not torturous, put your finger in it and see how long you can go without screaming. Then tell me if you think that is a fitting punishment for a person who stole candy from the candy store and did not repent of it.
A Christian who cannot judge matters better then unsaved got REBUKED by Paul in 1 Cor 6:1-9. Now you want to imply God can't judge matters better then the unsaved? Imagine that.
God being good should be a given for a Christian. As such it should be dead obvious that God not torture anyone in hell. If you think torture is something God will do, you ARE SERVING the wrong God!! you need to convert to satanism. If you don't want to, STOP misrepresenting God with your assumptions that completely incriminate Him Discussion on Torture.
Please read the OP here to further understand God and hell What to expect in hell.
The ONLY passage in the ENTIRETY of scripture that describes what suffering one can expect in the FIRES of hell is in Luke 16. Please read it and stop teaching falsely!
Then the ONLY passage in the ENTIRETY of scripture that gives a reason for weeping and gnashing of teeth is in Luke 13:28 There will be weeping there, and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but you yourselves thrown out.
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