Brother-Paul
Loyal
- Joined
- Jul 14, 2015
- Messages
- 4,000
many or few?
- Thread starter B-A-C
- Start date
@Brother-Paul -- we Can know we are saved Now. A person accepts Jesus Christ as their Savior -- the Holy Spirit comes to indwell the person NOW and never leaves us. We have inner peace that wasn't there before -- the Holy Spirit gives us new desires. We become a new creation in Christ.
And you comment is true as well.
And you comment is true as well.
B-A-C
Loyal
- Joined
- Dec 18, 2008
- Messages
- 11,995
True, but it says some names can and will be erased.
@B-A-C -- Scripture for that?
There Are those who believe that their good works is helping their salvation. That they were 'doing all these things' and God will say that He never knew them.
God Does know our inner attitude for Why we are doing that which we Are Doing.
That is why people need to realize the difference between the good works we want to do as the result Of our salvation VS 'good works' a person thinks they need to do to attain their salvation.
The sufficiency of the shed blood of Christ on the cross.
There Are those who believe that their good works is helping their salvation. That they were 'doing all these things' and God will say that He never knew them.
God Does know our inner attitude for Why we are doing that which we Are Doing.
That is why people need to realize the difference between the good works we want to do as the result Of our salvation VS 'good works' a person thinks they need to do to attain their salvation.
The sufficiency of the shed blood of Christ on the cross.
B-A-C
Loyal
- Joined
- Dec 18, 2008
- Messages
- 11,995
Psa 69:28; May they be blotted out of the book of life And may they not be recorded with the righteous.
Rev 3:5; 'He who overcomes will thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.
Exod 32:33; The LORD said to Moses, "Whoever has sinned against Me, I will blot him out of My book.
Your turn.
Downunder
Active
- Joined
- Mar 1, 2021
- Messages
- 787
That may be true of the effect and work of the Holy Spirit in a true worshipper BUT the issue here is your instance on the false belief that the baptism of the Holy Spirit is automatically given to those who "believe" (whatever that is).
Not in scripture Sue - disciples must believe in the true gospel once delivered to the saints and then they will have signs following them that they are Christ's.
Downunder
Active
- Joined
- Mar 1, 2021
- Messages
- 787
But which is the true gospel for a person to believe in? For not all gospels and neither are all church faiths equally acceptable unto our Lord Jesus and the Father.
John 4:23 But an hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and truth: for even such the Father seeketh as his worshippers.
4:24 God is Spirit: and who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.
Thus before God not all worshippers are of the truth.
Gregoryp
Active
- Joined
- Oct 4, 2020
- Messages
- 699
My testimony and experiences prove beyond a shadow of doubt, some are chosen before they are even born. And yes, we are sons and daughters of christ, with the holy spirit as our guide. Why the heck would you sit with some man who spent years studying theology out of a book? Every organised religion I have been to has been well short of the truth. The only way for me has been isolation with Christ. (for a very long time).
@Gregoryp -- your question is interesting -- why spend time with some man who spent years studying theology out of a book? The book you're talking about is God's Word , correct? Theology / Bible doctrine are the teachings of God's Word
Isolating yourself from people is not good. Spending lots of time with Christ / God's Word is good.
'we' need the fellowshipping with others of like beliefs. And no one lives in a 'bubble' -- we do things that bring us into contact with others near or far from us.
Isolating yourself from people is not good. Spending lots of time with Christ / God's Word is good.
'we' need the fellowshipping with others of like beliefs. And no one lives in a 'bubble' -- we do things that bring us into contact with others near or far from us.
John 14:6 Jesus Christ is telling us that "I am the way, the truth, and the life, No one comes to the Father except through Me."
1 Corinthians 15:1-4 "Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel.......by which also you are saved.... that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He rose again the 3rd day according to the Scriptures."
That Jesus Christ is the Son of God -- not just a good religious teacher of that day.
A lot of people Can go through the motions Of worship and not have their heart or mind in it.
Look at Romans 10:9-10 "that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. vs 13 "For whoever calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."
I"ve already shared about this is a previous post either before or after yours.
Your comment concerns me "to those who 'believe' (whatever that is).
So -- look at the 1 Corinthians 15 vs 1-3 and the Romans 10"9-10 passage.
Also look at Ephesians 1: 13-14 "In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also , having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise. vs 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory."
That is the baptism of the Holy Spirit that is automatically given to those who believe..as per what that passage is saying.
Our lives will show our inner belief. The Holy Spirit's indwelling us Will be apparent to others.
Gregoryp
Active
- Joined
- Oct 4, 2020
- Messages
- 699
No, I was meaning a reference book written by man, their study guides as it were. No the bible, it is the written word of God and cannot be refuted, man has a bad habit of twisting the words to suit their own agendas.
@Gregoryp -- people tend to do that frequently. We need the imput of others in case 'we' start going off on a tangent of our own.
There was a gentleman my husband and I got to know Many years ago. He'd actually taken a year off work to concentrate on studying God's Word on his own. No input from anyone else. He'd managed to get off track in several areas without the feed back of other believers.
I've done lots of Bible studies with groups using study guides. There are a few good, reliable publishers 'out there'.
Studying on our own is Also very good. We can share with others what we've learned.
There was a gentleman my husband and I got to know Many years ago. He'd actually taken a year off work to concentrate on studying God's Word on his own. No input from anyone else. He'd managed to get off track in several areas without the feed back of other believers.
I've done lots of Bible studies with groups using study guides. There are a few good, reliable publishers 'out there'.
Studying on our own is Also very good. We can share with others what we've learned.
Gregoryp
Active
- Joined
- Oct 4, 2020
- Messages
- 699
I am in constant communication with God, as if he was right here beside me. The knowledge and love shared is something to behold. Have been doing so for a few years now. Like most people i did go astray for years back in the 80s and 90s. Very shameful times, but here I am back where I belong.
Gregoryp
Active
- Joined
- Oct 4, 2020
- Messages
- 699
Brother-Paul
Loyal
- Joined
- Jul 14, 2015
- Messages
- 4,000
Greetings Sue,
Trouble is we do not know all the facts, we do not know what he was reading, was he saved, was he praying before and after, if not as well as he studied. Did he read a commentary as well, it is not good to read just one, did he believe the commentary more than the Word?
There are lots of things that can mislead a person, the first 'thing' is the enemy of souls.
I have been born again from above for almost 30 years, 23 of them, the last 23 years, I have not been part of a denomination. I am not on my own, there are many on here in a similar situation. Tell me sister, do I appear, to you, to be off course?
Another consideration, which I say I love, as I read the comments you add and I do not know the actual situation, was the man off course or off course regarding your denominations views? Many are rejected for just that.
We have to be born again from above, we have to be washed and regenerated my the Holy Spirit. If we are we are members of the Body of Christ, Spiritual stones in the ekklesia, the 'one true church.'
There are no denominations in the ekklesia Sue. We are to be members of the ekklesia, no where in scripture does it say we are to be members of a denomination. Denomination are man made, the ekklesia is God made.
Shalom
@Brother-Paul -- I've interacted with many posters on Forum.
Okay -- you are one who does not uphold the concept of the local church -- local body of believers.
The 'church' are of two kinds. The "Church" being the universal body of born again believers. 'We' are all over this world. When the rapture takes place -- all born again believers / the Church / will be taken up to meet Jesus Christ in the air and be with Him forever.
And there is the church Building -- the place in the local geographical area where believers / their friends/ relatives / whomever -- Do get together to worship together on a frequent basis.
In the three missionary journeys of Paul and mainly Barnabus -- there were local groups of believers that were established. They were in Asia Minor. And over time -- there are local churches established in other geographical areas. That's why we have the guidelines for pastors / deacons in the New Testament.
It's not My denominational views -- it's Biblical views. There are times when a person -- in the process Of reading/ studying -- can get settled in one part of Scripture -- one concept -- and stay there. For example -- one older pastor stopped at the passage in 1 Corinthians 11 concerning women and head coverings. He had a small congregation that followed his teaching about the 'necessity' Of head-coverings for women in church. I think it was his best friend who's wife did Not wear one -- because I asked him -- he said No but it was because She was going to a church that didn't require that. So -- in effect -- he was Not being the spiritual leader of his 'household' being his wife.
What the passage Was saying is that If a woman is praying during a church service or prophesying that she needs to have her head covered. So - Then the question was raised -- What constitutes a woman having her head covered? And that's assuming that a woman would voluntarily Be praying during a church service with men around. I've never been in a church where women Did pray out loud. It was only men who did. And there was not prophesying done, either. So -- therefore -- no need to.
And there has been or still is a 'Head-covering Movement'. That when a woman is willing to wear a head covering / shawl / in church -- that she will feel more blessed or holy as a result.
Now -- back when I was growing up -- lots of women Did wear hats to church -- mainly at Easter time. And back in history -- all the women wore a hat to church. I'm thinking back in "Little House on the Prairie' days -- women wore their bonnets and their dresses. Had nothing to do with their praying or prophesying in church.
And other people believe that speaking in tongues is required for salvation. Simply because on the Day of Pentecost -- there were those who Did speak in tongues As they were Given the ability To do so.
There are those who take the passage "Repent and be baptized for the remission of sins" and by-pass other passages that say that baptism is Not part of salvation, but it is very important. It IS our 1st witness to others as to what has already taken place in their/ our heart.
Since being widowed 2 1/2 yrs ago -- my personal identity has changed. No longer a wife. I no longer have a husband as my spiritual leader. And I end up being fairly vocal, at times, here on Forum. Then again I probably was Before then, also. But more so, now.
The comment about reading commentaries - I've never read one. In a Precepts class -- we were encouraged to 'dissect' passages ourselves 1st and Then look at commentaries to see how close we were to Them. But don't read the commentary 1st. "chew our food ourselves" -- commentaries are written by men who've done a lot of studying and gotten it published. My husband had a set by a German author. I still have them, but never use them. I've kept numerous books he'd had in his 'pastor library'. We Can get other points of view from them.
Denominations came to be when people inside the RCC began to be able to read the Bible on their own. Problems were seen as a result Of reading what God's Word was really saying. There were things within the RCC that were Not Biblical -- so Martin Luther / the Lutheran Church / and the Presbytarian and Methodist churches came to be. Some of the men who saw Scriptures from a slightly different angel. And then, much later, the Baptist church developed.
That is how the various mainline denominations came to be. People identify with 'whatever' Or nothing Or a non-denominational church. So -- people worship with those of similar beliefs / practices.
My parents were Presbyterians -- but were invited to a Bible study while in the Air Force. They found that baptism was to be by immersion and not infant sprinkling. So, they changed to being conservative Baptists. And there are many 'flavors' Of Baptists.
I grew up in a GARB area in Iowa. General Association of Regular Baptists. Though I live in south, central Texas -- I'm not southern Baptist. I'm more an Independent Baptist person.
Okay -- you are one who does not uphold the concept of the local church -- local body of believers.
The 'church' are of two kinds. The "Church" being the universal body of born again believers. 'We' are all over this world. When the rapture takes place -- all born again believers / the Church / will be taken up to meet Jesus Christ in the air and be with Him forever.
And there is the church Building -- the place in the local geographical area where believers / their friends/ relatives / whomever -- Do get together to worship together on a frequent basis.
In the three missionary journeys of Paul and mainly Barnabus -- there were local groups of believers that were established. They were in Asia Minor. And over time -- there are local churches established in other geographical areas. That's why we have the guidelines for pastors / deacons in the New Testament.
It's not My denominational views -- it's Biblical views. There are times when a person -- in the process Of reading/ studying -- can get settled in one part of Scripture -- one concept -- and stay there. For example -- one older pastor stopped at the passage in 1 Corinthians 11 concerning women and head coverings. He had a small congregation that followed his teaching about the 'necessity' Of head-coverings for women in church. I think it was his best friend who's wife did Not wear one -- because I asked him -- he said No but it was because She was going to a church that didn't require that. So -- in effect -- he was Not being the spiritual leader of his 'household' being his wife.
What the passage Was saying is that If a woman is praying during a church service or prophesying that she needs to have her head covered. So - Then the question was raised -- What constitutes a woman having her head covered? And that's assuming that a woman would voluntarily Be praying during a church service with men around. I've never been in a church where women Did pray out loud. It was only men who did. And there was not prophesying done, either. So -- therefore -- no need to.
And there has been or still is a 'Head-covering Movement'. That when a woman is willing to wear a head covering / shawl / in church -- that she will feel more blessed or holy as a result.
Now -- back when I was growing up -- lots of women Did wear hats to church -- mainly at Easter time. And back in history -- all the women wore a hat to church. I'm thinking back in "Little House on the Prairie' days -- women wore their bonnets and their dresses. Had nothing to do with their praying or prophesying in church.
And other people believe that speaking in tongues is required for salvation. Simply because on the Day of Pentecost -- there were those who Did speak in tongues As they were Given the ability To do so.
There are those who take the passage "Repent and be baptized for the remission of sins" and by-pass other passages that say that baptism is Not part of salvation, but it is very important. It IS our 1st witness to others as to what has already taken place in their/ our heart.
Since being widowed 2 1/2 yrs ago -- my personal identity has changed. No longer a wife. I no longer have a husband as my spiritual leader. And I end up being fairly vocal, at times, here on Forum. Then again I probably was Before then, also. But more so, now.
The comment about reading commentaries - I've never read one. In a Precepts class -- we were encouraged to 'dissect' passages ourselves 1st and Then look at commentaries to see how close we were to Them. But don't read the commentary 1st. "chew our food ourselves" -- commentaries are written by men who've done a lot of studying and gotten it published. My husband had a set by a German author. I still have them, but never use them. I've kept numerous books he'd had in his 'pastor library'. We Can get other points of view from them.
Denominations came to be when people inside the RCC began to be able to read the Bible on their own. Problems were seen as a result Of reading what God's Word was really saying. There were things within the RCC that were Not Biblical -- so Martin Luther / the Lutheran Church / and the Presbytarian and Methodist churches came to be. Some of the men who saw Scriptures from a slightly different angel. And then, much later, the Baptist church developed.
That is how the various mainline denominations came to be. People identify with 'whatever' Or nothing Or a non-denominational church. So -- people worship with those of similar beliefs / practices.
My parents were Presbyterians -- but were invited to a Bible study while in the Air Force. They found that baptism was to be by immersion and not infant sprinkling. So, they changed to being conservative Baptists. And there are many 'flavors' Of Baptists.
I grew up in a GARB area in Iowa. General Association of Regular Baptists. Though I live in south, central Texas -- I'm not southern Baptist. I'm more an Independent Baptist person.
Brother-Paul
Loyal
- Joined
- Jul 14, 2015
- Messages
- 4,000
Greetings Sue, what you say does not reflect what I believe.
There is only one church Sue, it is the ekklesia, it is the only word you will find in scripture for church. The word ekklesia refers to born again from above believers, who are The Body of Christ, the Spiritual Stones of the Body of Christ in which Jesus our Lord is the Head.
I agree and have said many times, The Body of Christ, the ekklesia, consists of born again from above souls, worldwide, regardless of age, sex, colour or tongue.
Now this is where the issue comes. You find for me the word Church in scripture that refers to a building, you will not find it. Why? Because it is a word introduced hundreds of years later by the RCC. They decided to call the building, the place of worship a church, in doing so they introduced the word kuriakkon. You will not find kuriakkon anywhere in scripture Sue.
I have raised the point many times, and it is not that I am against what you call a church, it is just making clear the fact that kuriakkon was introduced by the RCC and is not in scripture.
My replies are always in love, that said, you disagree with so many things with the RCC over the years, and rightly so, but when we discuss the RCC created a word for church building that IS NOT in scripture, you are not willing to accept that error.
I have many times also suggested we should look back at the early church, to look back at the culture of the time, to understand more of the Greek and how the people of the day understood things, you have rejected this every time Sue, you say of course their culture was different, of course things were done differently, but you miss the main point, maybe I have not explained sufficiently.
The RCC will have a lot to answer for when the time comes, the only way to fully understand the early church, and avoid interferences, changes and wrong views by the RCC is to look at the early church. Let us note, numbers were added to them daily, great numbers, is that happening today? No!
Now let us look at this subject in more detail. You mention the church is the building, according to scripture it is clear it is not and I have listed why. Now lets look at another error of today, most places of worship and many minister/pastors day, the church is the congregation, it isn't the congregation if there are lost souls in the congregation. The church, the Body of Christ is the born again from above, washed and spiritually generated souls, these are the ones Christ will return for, not a denomination, not a congregation of saved and lost souls, He will return for those who are His, the saved souls, worldwide, regardless of age, sex, colour or tongue.
Now this is where your barriers come up and you think I am condemning the local church, not at all Sue, not at all.
I am recognising the local church for what it is, for what scripture tells us the church is, the ekklesia, born again spirit filled souls. I do hope you see what I am saying, I am referring only to scripture regarding the church.
Let me add a little more to help clarify. Let us return to the early church. What was the early church like, it consisted of believers, saved souls, who met in their houses for fellowship, prayer and singing and rejoicing. They gave their possessions as a community, to share one with another. Is the church we see today like that? NO!
1 - the church was the saved souls
2 - they had prayer and fellowship and songs of praise in each others homes
3 - they gave together and shared together, helping the widows and less fortunate
The local church, as many call it, some go further and say my church, come to my church, encourage your friends to come to our church. We do not have a church Sue, the church is the ekklesia, the body of Christ, the living, saved, born anew souls.
But you do have a purpose built building for worship, there is nothing wrong with that, but don't call it a church because it isn't a church, what you say therefore is an untruth, it is not in scripture. You have a purpose built building, what is it? It is a building for fellowship and prayer, in effect therefor it is God's house, but it is not a church. That said, there are a number of places of worship that have dropped the name they had and now call the purpose built building The Father's House.
You see, hopefully, I have nothing against a local church as it is called except
1 - The building is not a church
2 - The ekklesia, the church, The Body of Christ is not the congregation, unless all the congregation are born again from above. The ekklesia is the 'saved souls'
I am not going to reply on the rest you put Sue, I do not have blinkered view, single track view as you seem to suggest, I share with you what scripture says and what is accepted today that is not scripture backed regarding the Church, the ekklesia.
Question; When Christ returns in Glory, very soon, what is he coming for
1 - the ekklesia
2 - the church - a building
3 - the church - saved and lost souls
There is nothing blinkered in what my answer would be Sue
Shalom
JerryfromMass
Active
- Joined
- Dec 13, 2020
- Messages
- 1,181
Brother,
The word "church" is derived from 4th century Greek kyriakon doma (house of the Lord, or Lord's house), and to old medieval English circie (a place of assembly). The word "church" was used by the KJV translators on direct orders from King James, likely because he thought too high of himself to be subject to the implication that came with the word ekklesia (assembly).
