many or few?

[Brother-Paul]

Brother,

The word "church" is derived from 4th century Greek kyriakon doma (house of the Lord, or Lord's house), and to old medieval English circie (a place of assembly). The word "church" was used by the KJV translators on direct orders from King James, likely because he thought too high of himself to be subject to the implication that came with the word ekklesia (assembly).

Greetings brother,

There are two similar words kuriakon and kuriakos
kuriakon referring to church
kuriakos referring to the Lord's Supper as in 1 Cor 11:20

Unfortunately, because of the many definitions of the modern term “church,” the meaning of the word when we read it in the New Testament is often muddled. Some of that ambiguity has arisen because the English term “church” did not originate from the Greek term ekklesia that it translates in the New Testament.

The term ekklesia refers to all of God’s people which he has “assembled” or “gathered” out of the world. In other cases – most cases – the term refers to actual gatherings of God’s people, often designated by geography or location.

All of God's people being the saved souls, not an assembly or gathering of saved and lost souls.

In the early history of the church, when the New Testament was getting translated from Greek into Latin, there was no clear equivalent in Latin for ekklēsia, and so various terms were proposed. The RCC wanted everything in Latin, that was when the Greek word kuriakon was introduced by the RCC for the building.

ekklesia is in scripture NT

kuriakos is in scripture

kuriakon is not in scripture

 

[Sue D.]

Greetings Sue, what you say does not reflect what I believe.

There is only one church Sue, it is the ekklesia, it is the only word you will find in scripture for church. The word ekklesia refers to born again from above believers, who are The Body of Christ, the Spiritual Stones of the Body of Christ in which Jesus our Lord is the Head.

I agree and have said many times, The Body of Christ, the ekklesia, consists of born again from above souls, worldwide, regardless of age, sex, colour or tongue.





Now this is where the issue comes. You find for me the word Church in scripture that refers to a building, you will not find it. Why? Because it is a word introduced hundreds of years later by the RCC. They decided to call the building, the place of worship a church, in doing so they introduced the word kuriakkon. You will not find kuriakkon anywhere in scripture Sue.

I have raised the point many times, and it is not that I am against what you call a church, it is just making clear the fact that kuriakkon was introduced by the RCC and is not in scripture.

My replies are always in love, that said, you disagree with so many things with the RCC over the years, and rightly so, but when we discuss the RCC created a word for church building that IS NOT in scripture, you are not willing to accept that error.

I have many times also suggested we should look back at the early church, to look back at the culture of the time, to understand more of the Greek and how the people of the day understood things, you have rejected this every time Sue, you say of course their culture was different, of course things were done differently, but you miss the main point, maybe I have not explained sufficiently.

The RCC will have a lot to answer for when the time comes, the only way to fully understand the early church, and avoid interferences, changes and wrong views by the RCC is to look at the early church. Let us note, numbers were added to them daily, great numbers, is that happening today? No!

Now let us look at this subject in more detail. You mention the church is the building, according to scripture it is clear it is not and I have listed why. Now lets look at another error of today, most places of worship and many minister/pastors day, the church is the congregation, it isn't the congregation if there are lost souls in the congregation. The church, the Body of Christ is the born again from above, washed and spiritually generated souls, these are the ones Christ will return for, not a denomination, not a congregation of saved and lost souls, He will return for those who are His, the saved souls, worldwide, regardless of age, sex, colour or tongue.

Now this is where your barriers come up and you think I am condemning the local church, not at all Sue, not at all.

I am recognising the local church for what it is, for what scripture tells us the church is, the ekklesia, born again spirit filled souls. I do hope you see what I am saying, I am referring only to scripture regarding the church.

Let me add a little more to help clarify. Let us return to the early church. What was the early church like, it consisted of believers, saved souls, who met in their houses for fellowship, prayer and singing and rejoicing. They gave their possessions as a community, to share one with another. Is the church we see today like that? NO!

1 - the church was the saved souls
2 - they had prayer and fellowship and songs of praise in each others homes
3 - they gave together and shared together, helping the widows and less fortunate

The local church, as many call it, some go further and say my church, come to my church, encourage your friends to come to our church. We do not have a church Sue, the church is the ekklesia, the body of Christ, the living, saved, born anew souls.

But you do have a purpose built building for worship, there is nothing wrong with that, but don't call it a church because it isn't a church, what you say therefore is an untruth, it is not in scripture. You have a purpose built building, what is it? It is a building for fellowship and prayer, in effect therefor it is God's house, but it is not a church. That said, there are a number of places of worship that have dropped the name they had and now call the purpose built building The Father's House.

You see, hopefully, I have nothing against a local church as it is called except

1 - The building is not a church
2 - The ekklesia, the church, The Body of Christ is not the congregation, unless all the congregation are born again from above. The ekklesia is the 'saved souls'

I am not going to reply on the rest you put Sue, I do not have blinkered view, single track view as you seem to suggest, I share with you what scripture says and what is accepted today that is not scripture backed regarding the Church, the ekklesia.

Question; When Christ returns in Glory, very soon, what is he coming for

1 - the ekklesia
2 - the church - a building
3 - the church - saved and lost souls

There is nothing blinkered in what my answer would be Sue

Shalom

A lot to respond to -- start from bottom to top -- when Jesus Christ returns -- the rapture -- it will be for the Church -- all born again believers / 1st from the dead and then those who are alive at that time. So -- it would be your #1.

As far as who actually is going to a building /church/ To worship -- our preachers are Hoping that there will be unsaved in the service along with the born again people. Nothing wrong with inviting people to church with you. A young couple just moved into the apartment next door to me. They just had their baby a couple of days ago -- on my way to my car I suggested that if she was interested, there's a small church about 5 minutes from 'here'. Welcome to come if she wants to.

In the New Testament -- salvation was to the Jews 1st and then extended to everyone else -- Thus, it was the Jewish synogogue / temple where the people met. And then outside on the hillsides -- where ever people saw Jesus. And then in people's homes.

One-room school houses were also the church meeting place sometimes. People chose to meet inside on pews / chairs. So - gradually the places where people Did gather together became more inside than outside. Probably weather conditions played a part in that.

Moving up in your post -- your comment about born again spirit-filled souls. When a person is born again, the Holy Spirit Is indwelling them. So being 'born again' Is being spirit-filled. Now Maybe you're comparing that with a car and it's gas tank. A person usually fills the tank up with gasoline. Then -- upon driving -- the amount goes down. A person Can drive until most of the gas is gone and fill it up again. Or they can keep their tank 3/4 filled most of the time. Or whatever they choose to do with their tank for gas. Depending on how 'full' our spiritual tank is -- it will never be empty -- but Will need more fuel added. Is That what you're referring to?

The people who are in the church building are the pastor's congregation. Both members and non-members. They are his People. Saved or not-saved -- they are still his congregation. He is concerned for everyone's spiritual welfare.

And, yes, I disagree with most of what the RCC teaches. The only thing they have right is the virgin birth of Jesus Christ to Mary. And they even over-do That.

So -- let's leave the RCC out of the conversation.

So -- back in the New Testament times -- people Were coming to Christ -- in one day lots were added to the body of Christ. They were baptized.

You also commented about half -way through -- wish I knew how to edit -- but that the church that Christ is returning for are the 'born from above, washed and spiritually generated souls' explain that more -- born from above, washed and spiritually generated'. The 'washed and spiritually generated'. 'Washed' meaning baptized? I think you meant 'spiritually Regenerated'. In John 3 Nicodemus had a hard time understanding how a person could be 'born Again' -- he understood physical birth and though a person had to be rebirthed. But then he was told a person has to be born physically 1st and Then born again Spiritually. And That is what I referring to when talking about being a born again believer.

Lots of people believe in God and in Jesus Christ. But it's What they believe that matters. A lot of Head knowledge. Who Jesus Christ IS -- the Son of God. Belief in the Heart is necessary. There are probably Lots of people who believe in their head but it hasn't reached their Heart yet. And a person can tell when That takes place. It shows in their 'person'.

And, yes, Jesus Christ will Not be returning for a denomination -- being Baptist won't save anyone -- neither will warming a church pew make any difference. Neither will being baptized save a person. Or helping in the community food shelter every week. All of those things Are good things, but won't save a person.

 

[Beetow]

• Gen 4:17 . .Then Cain's wife conceived and gave birth to a son, and they named
him Enoch. When Cain founded a city, he named it Enoch; after his son.

This is the first mother in the Bible who's entire posterity would become so evil that
God had to step in and destroy them all-- men and women, single people, married
people, parents, pregnant moms, infants, toddlers, preschoolers, teen-agers,
handicapped people, and senior citizens: none survived the Flood; and their pet
bunnies, ponies, hamsters, guinea pigs, gerbils, parakeets, puppies, and kitties all
drowned with them.

The city Mrs. Cain's husband founded was probably not the kind of city we're used
to thinking. The Hebrew word for it is from 'iyr (eer); which can indicate even a
mere encampment or post.

Whether Mrs. Cain and her baby boy actually lived in a permanent settlement is
doubtful since her husband self-banished himself to vagrancy and wandering (Gen
4:14). Enochville was very likely nothing more than a rudimentary village like the
towns in the Old West and the Klondike that grew up around rail heads and mining
camps. Some of those were little more than a village of tents, and that's probably
really all that Enochville amounted to: just a nomadic assembly of Mrs. Cain's clan
where they could pool their resources, and watch each other's back as they
wandered from place to place in the land of Nod searching for natural sustenance.

Mrs. Cain's side of the Adams family was characterized by technology, invention,
boasting, achievement, commerce, and violence. But not one word is recorded
concerning its association with, nor its interest in, Man's maker. Her entire
community was God-less and went on to be completely destroyed right down to the
last man, woman, and child in Noah's flood. Not one survives Mrs. Cain today.

On the pages of Scripture, Mrs. Cain's clan have nothing good to say about the
Bible's God; nor did they offer Him any presents, nor invite Him into their homes,
nor care how He might feel about anything. The Bible doesn't record even one
single incident of Mrs. Cain's village blessing God for His goodness; nor for His
mercy, nor for His providence. There is no record that any of them ever said even
one single prayer-- not even a simple lay-me-down-to-sleep kind of prayer. Every
one of the little kids in Enochville went to bed each night without the slightest
assurance that the God of creation cared at all for the well being of their little souls.

How many homes of American mothers right here in the modern USA reflect that
very same Cainish culture? The parents and the children are unthankful, irreverent,
impious, and secular; caring little or nothing for things of eternal value: moving
towards an inevitable head-on rendezvous with death and the hereafter, and totally
unprepared to meet their maker. Of them it can honestly be said that the hand that
rocks the cradle also spawns fuel for the ovens of Hell.

UPDATE: 210 days have elapsed since my first comment. If the figures in post No.5
are in the ball park, then something like 13,046,040 new arrivals have checked into
the fiery sector of Hades since Oct 08, 2020.
_

 

[Brother-Paul]

A lot to respond to -- start from bottom to top -- when Jesus Christ returns -- the rapture -- it will be for the Church -- all born again believers / 1st from the dead and then those who are alive at that time. So -- it would be your #1.

That is correct Sue, Christ will return for His Bride, the ekkleia, the truly born again from above believers.

 

[Brother-Paul]

As far as who actually is going to a building /church/ To worship -- our preachers are Hoping that there will be unsaved in the service along with the born again people. Nothing wrong with inviting people to church with you. A young couple just moved into the apartment next door to me. They just had their baby a couple of days ago -- on my way to my car I suggested that if she was interested, there's a small church about 5 minutes from 'here'. Welcome to come if she wants to.

Sue, it is clear you have still not grasped what I was saying. Yes I agree that the pastors are hoping that none believers will come into the fold, as you say there is nothing wrong with inviting unsaved souls to a place of worship. That the regulars saved or unsaved will come to the place of worship.

These are the issues I am referring to, I will list as two separate items, on there own so that they are easier to see.

1 - The building is NOT a church, the church is the ekklesia, the building used as a place of worship is the kuriakon, a Greek word introduced by the RCC.
2 - The ekklesia is NOT the congregation of saved and lost souls, the ekklesia is the saved souls, they are the ones Christ will return for.

3 - Another issue is people saying come to my church, my church does this or that, we DO NOT have a church, we are part of 'the church' the ekklesia when we are truly born again from above.
4 - Not all ministers/pastors are born again, so not all pastors are part of the church they proclaim to be ministers in.

 

[Brother-Paul]

In the New Testament -- salvation was to the Jews 1st and then extended to everyone else -- Thus, it was the Jewish synogogue / temple where the people met. And then outside on the hillsides -- where ever people saw Jesus. And then in people's homes.

One-room school houses were also the church meeting place sometimes. People chose to meet inside on pews / chairs. So - gradually the places where people Did gather together became more inside than outside. Probably weather conditions played a part in that.

Sue, you know as well as I do that we both agree on these things.

Regarding the location of the country, we know it is in general warmer than many other places in the world, Jesus spent a lot of time in the Olive Groves, a lot of what we read in the Gospels is outdoors, it is understandable and has been said, this is why there are so many rituals for washing, and why baptism was outdoors. Weather is a factor for sure, nice to see you going back in time to look at the early church, the location and the culture Sue.

 

[Brother-Paul]

Moving up in your post -- your comment about born again spirit-filled souls. When a person is born again, the Holy Spirit Is indwelling them. So being 'born again' Is being spirit-filled. Now Maybe you're comparing that with a car and it's gas tank. A person usually fills the tank up with gasoline. Then -- upon driving -- the amount goes down. A person Can drive until most of the gas is gone and fill it up again. Or they can keep their tank 3/4 filled most of the time. Or whatever they choose to do with their tank for gas. Depending on how 'full' our spiritual tank is -- it will never be empty -- but Will need more fuel added. Is That what you're referring to?

Some of your comments baffle me Sure, I say that in love, I say something and something totally different comes back making me sometimes say to myself, where did that come from? I know I am not alone with this thinking, but do wonder sometimes if I was clear enough with my message, if not I apologise.

As we know there is a common saying for those who go to a place of worship once a week, they go for a top up of the spirit, enough to get them round until they need another top up next week. Most of them are probably lost souls, so in effect they don't have the spirit.

So lets move on, I see you have commented more below so will reply as I come to it.

 

[Brother-Paul]

The people who are in the church building are the pastor's congregation. Both members and non-members. They are his People. Saved or not-saved -- they are still his congregation. He is concerned for everyone's spiritual welfare.

A pastor has a flock, I would not say they are his, I would say they are 'in his care', and yes they may be saved and unsaved souls. They can be called a congregation, they can be called a gathering, but when you use the word 'member' it troubles me a little.

Are you referring to members of the Body of Christ, or members of the congregation, there is a massive difference?

If they are members of the Body of Christ, they are born again from above, washed and spiritually regenerated, saved souls, they are part of the ekklesia, the Church, the Body of Christ, the ones Christ will return in Glory for.

If they are members of the place of worship you go to, Baptist's, or any other, they are members of a denomination, not necessarily members of the Body of Christ. ekklesia.

 

[Brother-Paul]

And, yes, I disagree with most of what the RCC teaches. The only thing they have right is the virgin birth of Jesus Christ to Mary. And they even over-do That.

So -- let's leave the RCC out of the conversation.

Sue we cannot leave the RCC out of this discussion. I appreciate there is a lot of confusion over the term ekklesia, the translation of the term ekklesia, it is a Greek word, but it IS NOT in scripture. Now many may refer to circus, kirk or kirke and these can be traced back so far. There were issues in translation the Greek into Latin as Latin didn't have a word that fit, this is common with many translations, hence the reason many of us look back at the original language and means along with the culture of the time.

Now we know who wanted the Greek translated into Latin don't we? Yes it was the RCC, and it was the RCC that used the word kuriakon for church as a building.

So if you want to call a place of worship a church, you are agreeing to the changes made by the RCC!

It also confuses the term church, as people have become accustomed to calling a building a church, a congregation a church. It is looking at the worldly and failing to see or accept the spiritual, something Jesus was constantly dealing with.

The church, is the ekklesia
- it is the body of Christ
- it is to be the Bride of Christ
- it is the people who are truly born again who are the ekklesia
- Our Lord will return for in Glory for the ekklesia
- His bride, his church, his ekklesia.

O Come Lord Jesus. Amen

Then let those left behind see what Jesus meant when he talked out the ekklesia, the church, his church, his body, his bride.

 

[Brother-Paul]

You also commented about half -way through -- wish I knew how to edit -- but that the church that Christ is returning for are the 'born from above, washed and spiritually generated souls' explain that more -- born from above, washed and spiritually generated'. The 'washed and spiritually generated'. 'Washed' meaning baptized? I think you meant 'spiritually Regenerated'. In John 3 Nicodemus had a hard time understanding how a person could be 'born Again' -- he understood physical birth and though a person had to be rebirthed. But then he was told a person has to be born physically 1st and Then born again Spiritually. And That is what I referring to when talking about being a born again believer.

Greeting Sue,

Your reply surprises me.

You refer to John Chapter 3, I rightly so, I include some verses below but in all honestly try not to do this as all of the first 21 verses are so important and should be read together.

There was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews. 2 This man came to Jesus by night and said to Him, “Rabbi, we know that You are a teacher come from God; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him.”

John 3:1-12 NKJV
1 There was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews.
2 This man came to Jesus by night and said to Him, “Rabbi, we know that You are a teacher come from God; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him.”

3 Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
4 Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?”

5 Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’

8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”
9 Nicodemus answered and said to Him, “How can these things be?”
10 Jesus answered and said to him, “Are you the teacher of Israel, and do not know these things?
11 Most assuredly, I say to you, We speak what We know and testify what We have seen, and you do not receive Our witness.
12 If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things?

We know it well Sue. Three times Jesus said, Jesus emphasised You must be Born Again.

This is a common Greek method, but let me add the main part of the above in the KJV, the KJV is more correct than the other version for these scriptures.

Why? Because although the meaning in translation is the same, most assuredly or Verily Verily, the latter is the Greek method of emphasing something, they would repeat words

In the NKJV we see most assuredly and the prominent recurring words are Must Be BORN AGAIN. Born Again being repeated 3 times, most assuredly is also but does not have the impact that was meant in the day. But, Verily, Verily 3 times linked with Born Again 3 time, gives the added impact John was intending for his readers. Another reason why some of us look back at the original translations Sue. We don't have to, it is personal choice, no one is saying do it, but we can share the benefits of doing so.

John 3:3-7 KJV
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.

THE ABOVE IS THE FIRST PART OF YOUR COMMENT AND QUESTION now the remaining part

the church that Christ is returning for are the 'born from above, washed and spiritually generated souls' explain that more

Let us look again at

John 3:5 KJV
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

As we both know Nicodemus was thinking worldly, in the flesh, not in the spiritual.

We are to be born of water - that is the baptism by water

We are to be born of the Spirit - that is indwelled by the spirit

Are they at the same time? They were for Jesus.

Are they at the same time for us? Not necessarily, and probably more often than not they will not be at the same time.

Titus 3:5
Not by works of righteousness which we have done,
but according to his mercy he saved us,
by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

“Washing” – The Greek word translated “washing” here is actually a noun meaning “a bath.”

“Regeneration” – This noun means “regeneration” or “rebirth.” To regenerate means to create again, to produce again, to bring forth again. Regeneration is the act of generating again something that previously existed, through a renewal or rebirth.

“Renewing” – This noun means “renewal” and is only found in Christian literature. It is used in the passage below, exhortation to be “transformed by the renewal/renewing of your mind.” To renew means to restore to a former state, make like new again, revive.

Romans 12:2
And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

There are two renewals, or maybe we could say three.

- Washing and renewing by water
- Washing and renewing by the Holy Spirit
- And the renewal of the mind.

This is why we read the further explanation, making clear, in Titus 3

We are washed AND renewed, by the regeneration with both water and the Holy Spirit and are transformed by the renewing of our mind.

Bless you

 

[Sue D.]

@ Brother-Paul --- being born physically -- the bag of water is broken either before birth or during so that the baby can actually be born -- separated from the mother. And then the newborn baby is washed / cleaned up.

A person Has to be born physically 1st -- and Then be born spiritually. It's not a visible event. -- no one is being washed inwardly. Unless you consider the moment that the Holy Spirit comes to indwell the new believer -- that their 'soul' is being 'washed' / 'immersed' by the Holy Spirit.

I grew up with the KJV -- it has it's negatives in translating -- whether a person is reading 'verily, verily' Or 'most assuredly' -- the verse is saying the same thing. A person is born physically 1st and then needs to Also be born spiritually.

You're pro - KJV -- that's your choice. I agree more with the 'most assuredly' wording. Because that's what Jesus is doing -- He is 'assuring' Nicodemus that a person isn't being born physically again. But that it's a spiritual 'thing'.

And, yes, the 'born again' Is repeated 3 times -- for emphasis. Born Again. In the Spiritual way.

Well -- we Are both of a 'worldly' birth or we wouldn't be here. And then comes the Spiritual birth.

And, yes, a newborn baby Is 'washed' to get the matter from the bag of waters washed away. You Have seen a newborn baby Before it's washed up. It's a minibath.

And, yes, the regeneration -- you'd left off the 're' part of the word earlier. That's why I was asking.

And, yes, Romans 12:1-2 -- the renewing of our minds.

Being 'indwelt' by the Holy Spirit upon salvation.

 

[Sue D.]

Sue, it is clear you have still not grasped what I was saying. Yes I agree that the pastors are hoping that none believers will come into the fold, as you say there is nothing wrong with inviting unsaved souls to a place of worship. That the regulars saved or unsaved will come to the place of worship.

These are the issues I am referring to, I will list as two separate items, on there own so that they are easier to see.

1 - The building is NOT a church, the church is the ekklesia, the building used as a place of worship is the kuriakon, a Greek word introduced by the RCC.
2 - The ekklesia is NOT the congregation of saved and lost souls, the ekklesia is the saved souls, they are the ones Christ will return for.

3 - Another issue is people saying come to my church, my church does this or that, we DO NOT have a church, we are part of 'the church' the ekklesia when we are truly born again from above.
4 - Not all ministers/pastors are born again, so not all pastors are part of the church they proclaim to be ministers in.

It's more that I don't especially Agree with you. I Do understand what you've been saying -- I don't Agree with all of it.

I invite people to the church I go to. You are free to call it anything you want to. It's the congregation of people I choose to worship with. It's the church Building that we will be entering To worship.

Your last point -- that Is a possibility -- that not all pastors/ ministers are born again believers. If You wish to approach those ministers in that respect -- go ahead.


Your #467-- do not assume that they are 'lost souls' going for their weekly 'fix'. How about all of us who go to church to renew our spirit. For the spiritual encouragement we all need. Is that not, also, Our weekly 'fix'?

Born again believers are left here on earth to be an encourager to everyone else. Not to be setting ourselves on some sort of pedastal as to Why or Who is going to church. I need to be getting something to eat.

As for the RCC -- some posts back "JerryfromMass" commented about the Greek / Hebrew word for the church. Two different words. But I'm going to excuse myself to get something to eat.

 

[Beetow]

At Gen 39:6-20 is told the story of an immoral woman who destroyed the
reputation of an innocent man in order to cover up her own indiscretions.

I should point out something that goes without saying. Women are not a protected
species. When a bad girl like Potiphar's wife stands before God to answer for the
way she ruined Joseph's reputation, she will be punished just as severely as if a
man did it because there is neither partiality nor favoritism with God.

• Rom 2:11 . . God does not show favoritism.

• Eph 6:9 . . There is no favoritism with Him.

• Col 3:25 . . Anyone who does wrong will be repaid for their wrong, and there is
no favoritism.

• 1Pet . . You call on a Father who judges each individual's work impartially,

Those verses tell me there will be just as many, if not more, women thrown into the
reservoir of liquefied flame depicted at Rev 20:11-15 as men because women's
gender will not be a mitigating element when they face justice at the Great White
Throne event.

UPDATE: 211 days have elapsed since my first comment. If the figures in post No.5
are in the ball park, then something like 13,108,164 new arrivals have checked into
the fiery sector of Hades since Oct 08, 2020.
_

 

[Brother-Paul]

@ Brother-Paul --- being born physically -- the bag of water is broken either before birth or during so that the baby can actually be born -- separated from the mother. And then the newborn baby is washed / cleaned up.

A person Has to be born physically 1st -- and Then be born spiritually. It's not a visible event. -- no one is being washed inwardly. Unless you consider the moment that the Holy Spirit comes to indwell the new believer -- that their 'soul' is being 'washed' / 'immersed' by the Holy Spirit.

With respect Sue, you have not picked up what Jesus is saying to Nicodemus.

It is clear in the conversation...
Jesus was talking metaphorically when he used the terms 'Water' and 'Spirit'
Nicodemus was talking in the flesh, hence Jesus's comment to him in v5

John 3:5 KJV
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

John 3:6-7 KJV
That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

Nicodemus, was thinking worldly, in the flesh; that which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that is what you are describing also Sue, Jesus is saying your thinking is wrong.

You are a Baptist Sue, and you don't appear to have grasped, baptism is what Jesus is talking about here. The water of baptism, not the flesh birth water from the womb.

Let us, with open minds, look at the four main ways in which this expression has been interpreted:

1. Baptism in water by John the Baptist and baptism in the Spirit by Jesus.
In support of this view is the fact that all previous references to ‘water’ in this Gospel relate to John’s baptizing ministry (John 1:26, John 1:31, John 1:33), in John 1:33 his baptizing ministry with water is compared to Jesus’ baptizing ministry with the Spirit. Accordingly, Jesus is saying that entrance to the kingdom involves submission to John’s baptism with water for repentance and Jesus’ baptism with the Spirit.

2. Christian water baptism and spiritual regeneration. (Which is what you are referring to and I cannot agree with)
In support of this view it can be said that the original readers of this Gospel would have seen in the reference to water an allusion to Christian baptism (rather than John’s baptism), and so the reference to being born of water and the Spirit would denote submission to Christian baptism, which in the early church was connected with the reception of the Spirit (Acts 2:38).

3. Natural birth and spiritual regeneration.
Being born of water is a metaphor for natural human birth, water being an allusion either to amniotic fluid or semen, so Jesus was saying that to enter the kingdom one must be born spiritually as well as physically; by the Spirit as well as by water. In support of this view is the fact that in John 3:6 Jesus contrasts being born of the flesh (physical birth) with being born of the Spirit (spiritual regeneration).

4. Spiritual regeneration alone is depicted with a double metaphor.
In support of this view is the fact that elsewhere in this Gospel water functions as a metaphor for the Spirit (John 4:10, John 13–15; John 7:38) as it also does in places in the OT (e.g. Ezek. 36:25–27). The expression ‘water and the Spirit’ is a hendiadys, a figure of speech using two different words to denote one thing, something suggested by the fact that both ‘water’ and ‘Spirit’ are anarthrous (without the article) and governed by the one preposition (lit. ‘of water and spirit’, ex hydatos kai pneumatos).

Jesus is saying that to enter the kingdom one must be born of water, i.e. of the Spirit. This view is also supported by the fact that in this passage Jesus uses a number of parallel expressions that are all related to seeing and entering the kingdom: John 3:3: ‘born again / from above’; John 3:5: ‘born of water and the Spirit’; John 3:7: ‘born again / from above’; John 3:8: ‘born of the Spirit’.

If all these expressions are in fact parallel and synonymous, then to be ‘born again / from above’ and to be ‘born of water and the Spirit’ mean the same as to be ‘born of the Spirit’.

The 4th view, to me, is a more appropriate definition, do you think so?
Certainly not the flesh birth of a child from a mothers womb of which, the water at birth is far from being pure.
The message is one of becoming new, forgiveness of sins, being born anew, which is 'from above.'

The majority of Paul’s letter to Titus is words of instruction for how believers are to live. Some of the instructions are general ethical principles that apply to all time (i.e., living self-controlled, upright, and godly lives), but other topics are specific to Titus’ first-century cultural context.

Paul’s concern is that believers understand the essentials of godly living and that they conduct themselves in a courteous way that reflects well on the church when viewed from the outside (2:12; 3:1–8).

This is why we should always refer on this topic to Paul's message to Titus...

Titus 3:5-8
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.

 

[Brother-Paul]

I grew up with the KJV -- it has it's negatives in translating -- whether a person is reading 'verily, verily' Or 'most assuredly' -- the verse is saying the same thing. A person is born physically 1st and then needs to Also be born spiritually.

As I said Sue, going back to the original word in the Greek, to get the correct meaning in a translation is personal, it is up to the person. As I said, you don't have to, but some of us do want to. Note; I never criticise a person who doesn't want to, and in turn don't expect anyone who does so to be criticised. Brotherly love sister.

The physical birth is not what Jesus was referring to in the passages discussed, the physical birth was what Nicodemus was thinking, and Jesus corrected him for it.

 

[Brother-Paul]

You're pro - KJV -- that's your choice. I agree more with the 'most assuredly' wording. Because that's what Jesus is doing -- He is 'assuring' Nicodemus that a person isn't being born physically again. But that it's a spiritual 'thing'.

I like you Sue, started with the old English KJV, I then when on to the NIV, but also went back to the NKJV, so I do wonder why you say 'I am pro KJV - that's my choice'?

I have almost 30 translations, I use 5 on a regular basis, they are KJV, NKJV, NIV, CJB and NJB.

Jesus is assuring Nicodemus Sue, I agree, as I said both come from the translation, from the original Greek word both Verily, Verily and Most Assuredly are correct. Most assuredly is saying you can rest assured this is accurate, verily verily on the other hand is saying 'Listen this is Very, very important'. So from the original Greek, by taking the two translations we have a clear understanding which is...

John 3:3
(Listen this is very, very important) Verily, verily, (be assured of what I say) I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God

We are not saying, this is right, this is wrong Sue, both are correct, both meanings come from the original Greek word.

 

[Brother-Paul]

And, yes, the 'born again' Is repeated 3 times -- for emphasis. Born Again. In the Spiritual way.

Well -- we Are both of a 'worldly' birth or we wouldn't be here. And then comes the Spiritual birth.

And, yes, a newborn baby Is 'washed' to get the matter from the bag of waters washed away. You Have seen a newborn baby Before it's washed up. It's a minibath.

And, yes, the regeneration -- you'd left off the 're' part of the word earlier. That's why I was asking.

And, yes, Romans 12:1-2 -- the renewing of our minds.

Being 'indwelt' by the Holy Spirit upon salvation.

Read the above posts Sue, they aim to clarify the misunderstanding.

In His Love

Shalom

 

[Brother-Paul]

It's more that I don't especially Agree with you. I Do understand what you've been saying -- I don't Agree with all of it.

I invite people to the church I go to. You are free to call it anything you want to. It's the congregation of people I choose to worship with. It's the church Building that we will be entering To worship.

Greeting Sue,

I totally agree you can call the place of worship, building anything you want. But that is not what we are discussing, we are discussing WHAT DOES THE BIBLE SAY A CHURCH IS?

To me what the Word of God says is of paramount importance.

I am not going to repeat what I have put, but I stand by it, I have confirmed scripture about it, The Truth is in The Word.

 

[Brother-Paul]

Your last point -- that Is a possibility -- that not all pastors/ ministers are born again believers. If You wish to approach those ministers in that respect -- go ahead.

It is more than just possible, there are many 'caring' pastors, called different names in different denominations which I also do not agree with many of them. (Another topic)

They can be caring people, they can be good speakers, they have passed their exams, they have a certificate, but none of that means they are born again. Right or wrong?

 

[Brother-Paul]

Your #467-- do not assume that they are 'lost souls' going for their weekly 'fix'. How about all of us who go to church to renew our spirit. For the spiritual encouragement we all need. Is that not, also, Our weekly 'fix'?

You don't go to a place of worship to renew your spirit Sue! The spirit is abiding in a born again, washed and regenerated soul. You don't lose it Sue, it is in the heart and soul.

Many think you have to top up the spirit, many think they have to renew the spirit in them.

Hymn
'Lift up your hearts!' We lift them, Lord, to thee;
here at thy feet none other may we see:
'lift up your hearts!' E'en so, with one accord,
we lift them up, we lift them to the Lord.

Job 11:13 NKJV
If you would prepare your heart, And stretch out your hands toward Him;

The Amplified Bible puts it this way
If you direct your heart [on the right path] And stretch out your hands to Him,

The Spirit is in every born again from above soul, we do not need a top up. Christ is in us, we are in Christ.

Our heart has to be on the right path, heaven ward, on the narrow path, in the narrow way.

How do we prepare our hearts? We repent from the bottom of our hearts, so God can forgive and purify us. We repent and humble ourselves before the Lord, before worship. Repentance leads us to fulness of life in Christ.

These things are the preparing of our heart and stretch out our arms towards him, I appreciate not all raise their hands, but this is what Job 11 is saying.