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Misapplying The Book of Acts

Enow

Member
Joined
Sep 6, 2008
Messages
96
The problem is the misapplication of the Book of Acts in how wayward believers forget the faith and try to fit their supernatural experiences into the Book of Acts to understand it as they want it to be from God, and yet we are called to test the spirits, as in testing all things by the scriptures in according to the faith we have in Christ Jesus. Many believers read inbetween the lines or read the scriptures wrong to justify preaching that one does not always receive the promise of the Spirit when believing in Jesus all because they experienced what seemed like a similar encounter found in the Book of Acts later on in their lives as a believer in Jesus Christ.

By His grace, I hope to cover all the errant teachings assumed in Acts.

Acts 19: 1And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,

Certain disciples here are followers of John the Baptist's. The use of the word "certain" should have been enough of a clue to disassociate these disciples from what Paul has been associated with. His two questions below told Paul and us that they did not know Jesus Christ.

2He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost. 3And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.

There you have it. Unto John' baptism. Paul went on to tell them of Jesus Christ, and if you note, these disciples of John were baptized again by water, but this time, in the name of the Lord Jesus.

4Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. 5When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied. 7And all the men were about twelve.

These certain disciples were not believers in Jesus Christ. They knew "He" was coming as John the Baptist had prophesied to them, but as people come and go, so did these certain disciples as they were obviously not around when Jesus had made His appearance to John the Baptist, nor were they around for His ministry afterwards. Paul had to tell them about Jesus Christ and to baptize in His name before they had received the Holy Ghost as promised by Jesus.

May the Lord cause the increase over this correction on the misinterpretation of scriptures above by many wayward believers.

Next misuse of the Book of Acts is ...

Acts 8:5Then Philip went down to the city of Samaria, and preached Christ unto them. 6And the people with one accord gave heed unto those things which Philip spake, hearing and seeing the miracles which he did.

Now Philip had encountered a people that was beset by unclean spirits.

7For unclean spirits, crying with loud voice, came out of many that were possessed with them: and many taken with palsies, and that were lame, were healed. 8And there was great joy in that city.

Now Luke went to the trouble of giving a background to these people and a certain man named Simon, the scorceror.

9But there was a certain man, called Simon, which beforetime in the same city used sorcery, and bewitched the people of Samaria, giving out that himself was some great one: 10To whom they all gave heed, from the least to the greatest, saying, This man is the great power of God. 11And to him they had regard, because that of long time he had bewitched them with sorceries.

Sounds like he is the culprit of many of these people being bewitched by unclean spirits. Notice how these people from the least to the greatest had called Simon in verse 10. He was infamous and feared.

12But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women. 13Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.

Now we are about to read something that is puzzling and contrary to what we know of the faith and the promise of all those that come to Jesus... but again, it is our lack of understanding. Do keep in mind the background that Luke and may the Lord show you why.

14Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John: 15Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost: 16(For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.) 17Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.

Okay, then. We have read the puzzle. Do we doubt our faith or the promise given by Jesus or do we read on and see the mentality of the people and why God did not care to have them commit the unpardonable sin.

18And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money, 19Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost.

Well, it certainly looks like Simon, the believer in Jesus Christ was stiil off a bit in his approach to God.

20But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money. 21Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God.

Peter just testified that no one had this part nor lot in this matter. Even though he and John just laid hands on them and "prayed" as they did in verse 15, so it was not them that gave these people the Holy Ghost, but the Son.

Remember the people in how they were bewitched by Simon the scrorceror? They, too had the mentality of a person having the ability to impart a spirit unto someone, and if the Holy Ghost had come upon them the moment they had believed with Simon among them, they would have confused the event as to the bewitchings of Simon. God would not save a people just to have them commit an unpardonable sin. Even if it wasn't possible to commit this sin, it still would have confused the new believers in not seeing the receiving of the Holy Spirit was the promise from God and not due to the bewitchings of Simon the scorceror. Even Simon had to be corrected for seeking another power for himself to impart "spirits" since he was infamous and feared among the people for doing so.

22Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee. 23For I perceive that thou art in the gall of bitterness, and in the bond of iniquity. 24Then answered Simon, and said, Pray ye to the LORD for me, that none of these things which ye have spoken come upon me.

So not only did God cared about the people that were bewitched by Simon, but He cared enough to reach Simon to enable him to repent.

This is why Luke bothered to give the background on Simon and the people of the area so as to be the reason why the Holy Ghost had not fallen on any of them yet when they believed and were baptized in His name. The supernatural was high in that area, and the peace of God is that He is not the author of confusion, but of peace as in "all" churches of the saints, even "newbies" in Christ.

Now contenders would argue that this event alone means that one has to seek after the Holy Spirit to get the Holy Spirit. They would be sore amiss in that the prayers were not plainly directed to the Spirit, were they? Given that the rudiment of Simon the scorceror is to contact spirits and to bewitch people with spirits which is of the world, God would not speak as the world speak, nor have them hear as the world hears in order to have the faith in Jesus to stand apart from the world. That is why all invitations points to the Son, and not the Spirit. It is by believing in the Son, we have received the promise by faith.

That is exactly what had happened in Acts 10:34-48. Contenders would argue that we do not know if Peter had addressed the Spirit to come or not, but the exact words were recorded as in why it was written so in verse 44 to avoid those that would add words to the event to justify seeking after the Holy Spirit when it is the Gospel preached that by believing in Jesus brings about the promise of the Spirit. If there be any doubts, read the letters to the churches. The letters are written for our edification and for doctrines, but the Book of Acts is the early history of the christian church, and it is by knowing our faith in Jesus Christ should one read Acts in like manner.

Ephesians 1:12That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. 13In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory. 15Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints,

John 3:6That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. 8The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

John 6: 35And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

Hebrews 11:1Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.... 6But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Galatians 3:14That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith....26For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

John 14:6Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me....
15If ye love me, keep my commandments.

What commandments are we to keep in getting the promise of the Spirit? It cannot be everything that He taught cause we need Him in us to live the christian life as His "standard" are higher than the works of the Law. So the commandment He is speaking of in regards to our faith in Jesus are His invitations in approaching God the Father through the Son... and no other way, so as to stand apart from the world on how they seek after other spirits.

16And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

The world cannot receive the Spirit for they see Him not, thus they receive other spirits in the world as they see it, but we will know Him for He dwells in us. We need not seek after the Holy Spirit to get the Spirit, but rest in Jesus and His promises to us by faith.

The day of Pentecost in Acts 2 has been used to explain a "baptism of the Holy Spirit" on believers that were away from the assembly and doing other things. One woman went to the pastor to ask what had happened to her, and he went to the Book of Acts. She had always believed in Jesus before, and se was just "reading her Bible" when it happened and she started to speak in tongues. She testified to that moment as when she knew she was saved as she got it all at once, the baptism of the Holy Spirit and speaking in tongues. She did not realized that she just changed the testimony of the Gospel as hearers would doubt whethor coming to Jesus and believing in Him was enough to rest in Him, and thus begins that rollercoaster ride with no rest in sight. Upon inquiry, she did not recall what she was reading in the Bible and yet she would testified that other people were doing other things when it happened to them.

She, nor the pastor, nor the others tested the spirits to discern them. The Holy Spirit would not do that to change their testimony. The results of their testimony is to lead people from their rest in Jesus to seek after the Holy Spirit when He is in them as promised. They forget that the Holy Spirit is to bear witness of Jesus and to glorify the Son.

Matthew 3:16And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: 17And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

Mark 1:9-11 & John 1:32-34 testify of the same as the voice from heaven, God the Father spoke of the Son as the Spirit bore witness by descending like a dove on the Son. The Father did not speak of the Spirit to say, "Behold this coming from above. Seek that and ye shall be saved." And yet, the way wayward believers testify, one would think that is the Gospel, and it is not.

John 15:26But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me: 27And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning.

John 16:13Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. 14He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

If the Holy Spirit will not speak of Himself, and all invitations and scriptures points to come to the Son, then why are wayward believers pointing to the Spirit to get the Spirit and the things of the Spirit?

John 5:39Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. 40And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

Philippians 1:6Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ: 9And this I pray, that your love may abound yet more and more in knowledge and in all judgment; 10That ye may approve things that are excellent; that ye may be sincere and without offence till the day of Christ. 11Being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are by Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God.<!-- google_ad_section_end -->

The only way to honour the Father is through the Son. The moment anyone stops honouring the Son, you are no longer honouring the Father. People that broaden the way by including the Holy Spirit in worship and addressing the Holy Spirit in prayer or to seek after the Holy Spirit, are opening themselves up for a thief to break through. That is why unusual events has happened outside the normal confines of the assembly as well as within for they suffered their house to be broken through by breaking the commandment in approaching God.

John 5: 22For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: 23That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

So Acts 2 is not something to attribute these solitary baptism of the Holy Spirit with speaking in tongues on present day believers as one that has to wait for salvation awhile before they get it "all". That is a thief if there ever was one. By the testimony alone, that causes doubts in the Gospel of Jesus Christ when they should have rested in His promise that they are saved by calling on Jesus. They did not test the spirits nor discern the message being given.

These isolated "delayed" baptism of the Holy Spirit is not defined as such as some will call it the "anointing". Others will experience the same thing again and again as they testify to more than one baptism of the Holy Spirit: one author testify in a book that there are three baptisms of the Holy Spirit: I met a man that read that book as he expounded on it that there are five baptisms of the Holy Spirit. Others will carry it over to declare that it is the sanctification of the Spirit and another will proclaim that it is the filling of the Spirit as repetitive as it was getting. Little by little, the "spirits" gets its place in the worship service, stealing the time away from the Bridegroom as believers forget the role of the Holy Spirit and the faith in Jesus Christ.

Ephesians 4: 4There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; 5One Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

2 Corinthians 13:5Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

Colossians 2:5For though I be absent in the flesh, yet am I with you in the spirit, joying and beholding your order, and the stedfastness of your faith in Christ. 6As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him: 7Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving. 8Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
9For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. 10And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

There are tongues found in the world that comes without interpretation as result of being in contact with other spirits.

Isaiah 8:19And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead?

Does this mean that you are not His? No. It is written that we are to test the spirits; signs and wonders will come to fool even the elect, but the elect will remember their faith as well as their first love by the grace of God and return to their rest in Jesus in keeping their eyes on Him for He is the Good Shepherd as well as the Bridegroom.

Matthew 24: 24For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

So when reading the Book of Acts, know your faith in Jesus Christ and ask Jesus for help in testing these spirits by the scriptures without reading inbetween the lines in the Book of Acts which served as a history of the early churches; not as a guideline in identifying your supernatural experiences.

Remember our first love; the Bridegroom.

1 Peter 2:24Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed. 25For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.<!-- google_ad_section_end -->
 
Holy Spirit

Enow yes you do get the Holy Spirit when you recieve Jesus but there is a measure of the power and when you recieve the "baptism"then you recieve more power and the gift of tongues,prophecy,interpertation,laying on of hands,etc.as what ever gifts are given to each person!From the Holy Spirit!!We all have different gifts.So, if you want the "gifts"those you can seek and ask but its up to God!That is the power and as some people say the"baptism".Each is given a measure!Not all may prophecy,not all interpet tongues,not all have the gift of healing!But we have to have the power of the Holy Spirit to do all these things in the name of Jesus!So, hope you understand what I am saying?Love,sister!
 
Enow yes you do get the Holy Spirit when you recieve Jesus but there is a measure of the power and when you recieve the "baptism"then you recieve more power and the gift of tongues,prophecy,interpertation,laying on of hands,etc.as what ever gifts are given to each person!From the Holy Spirit!!We all have different gifts.So, if you want the "gifts"those you can seek and ask but its up to God!That is the power and as some people say the"baptism".Each is given a measure!Not all may prophecy,not all interpet tongues,not all have the gift of healing!But we have to have the power of the Holy Spirit to do all these things in the name of Jesus!So, hope you understand what I am saying?Love,sister!

Amen my sister. There is room for all no matter where they are in their walk. Each of us is called to a different walk but serve the same Master.
The Book of Acts was both the birthplace of the church and an example of God's awesome power toward and through His church.
 
Enow yes you do get the Holy Spirit when you recieve Jesus but there is a measure of the power and when you recieve the "baptism"then you recieve more power and the gift of tongues,prophecy,interpertation,laying on of hands,etc.as what ever gifts are given to each person!From the Holy Spirit!!We all have different gifts.So, if you want the "gifts"those you can seek and ask but its up to God!That is the power and as some people say the"baptism".Each is given a measure!Not all may prophecy,not all interpet tongues,not all have the gift of healing!But we have to have the power of the Holy Spirit to do all these things in the name of Jesus!So, hope you understand what I am saying?Love,sister!

I disagree, sister.

#1. You have received the Holy Spirit as promised. The without measure means you either have Him or you don't. This is how one examines themselves in the faith.

2 Corinthians 13: 5Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

#2. You have received the power. You cannot live the christian life unless that power is by faith in the Son of God, not by sight nor by signs and wonders at the Holy Spirit's refilling station.

Galatians 2: 20I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

#3. The fact that people say "another baptism" goes to show that they are not being led by the Spirit to say that as much as purported that the "Spirit" is manifesting as others claim.

Ephesians 4:4There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; 5One Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

This is the nondramatic version of being born again.

John 3:6That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. 8The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

John 14:17Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

So when they say that the Holy Spirit comes and falls on them... do not go there. Remember the faith and the points of the scriptures above to dscern by:

The world receive other spirits by seeing it happen. They can tell when it comes and when it goes.

The signs that follow the believers were meant for the unbelievers.

1 Corinthians 14: 21In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord. 22Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

In any event, for believers in seeking after a sign in the worship place by seeking after the Holy Spirit in denyng the full promises from Jesus, I see that as works that deny Him, voiding faith and our rest in Jesus.

How can those that believe seek after a sign be not seen as an adulterous generation as they seek another spirit to receive by dressing it up as getting more of the Holy Spirit?

2 Corinthians 11: 3But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. 4For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

1 Timothy 4:1Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; 2Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

I'd rather avoid false spirits and rest in Jesus Christ by His grace. I know that I have received the promise of the Spirit when I came to Him as I am complete in Christ so I can rest in Jesus.

By His grace, my eyes are on Jesus and that is Whom the indwelling Holy Spirit is pointing me to as well as all the manifestations of the Spirit is also. I thank Him that I am not getting lost in the distractions by having my eyes on manifestations instead of on Him for what the manifestations were given to do.

One cannot do both. Either you are seeking the Holy Spirit..thus in taking your eyes off of Jesus for those manifestations.. or... you acknowledge why the Holy Spirit was given as well as the manifestations.. to keep your eyes on Jesus.

Ephesians 4:12For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: 14That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; 15But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
 
Amen my sister. There is room for all no matter where they are in their walk. Each of us is called to a different walk but serve the same Master.
The Book of Acts was both the birthplace of the church and an example of God's awesome power toward and through His church.

I disagree.

You are either serving the Lord Jesus Christ or something else in His name. You cannot do both.

This is the nondramatic version of being born again.

John 3:6That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. 8The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

John 14:17Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

So when they say that the Holy Spirit comes and falls on them... do not go there. Remember the faith and the points of the scriptures above to dscern by:

The world receive other spirits by seeing it happen. They can tell when it comes and when it goes. We are called as believers to remember this below.

2 Corinthians 13: 5Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?


Hebrews 11: 1Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Galatians 3:14That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Hebrews 11: 6But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Galatians 3: 26For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

Believe the promise of Jesus of that rest for coming to Him.

Matthew 11:28Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. 29Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. 30For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

Hebrews 4:1Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. 2For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. 3For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.....

So does one continue to seek a baptism of the Holy Spirit that comes with evidence of tongues or... "another baptism of the Holy Spirit that comes with evidence of tongues"? Or does one rest in Jesus that we are filled with the Spirit as promised so we can rest in Him that we are His?

Hebrews 4:9There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. 10For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his. 11Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

Matthew 9:17Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved.

Galatians 2: 20I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Thus the just shall live by faith, and not by sight nor by signs and wonders.

To assist in edifying in the knowledge of what had transpired that would cause the delay of the baptism of the Holy Ghost: If the Lord was ministering through Phillip to cast out unclean spirits, then surely by these verses below we can see why the Lord did not baptize the people of the area with Simon immediately because of Simon being among them, having the history of bewitching the people of that area.

Mark 3:28Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme: 29But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation. 30Because they said, He hath an unclean spirit.

God was careful in saving these people so that they would not commit the unforgiveable sin.

Please do not allow Pentecostal/ charismatic practises use that to sow doubts that believers do not get the Holy Spirit right away. He is promised for all those that come to Jesus.

Ephesians 1:12That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. 13In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory. 15Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints,
 
I disagree.

quote]
I am okay with that my friend.

We can be united in spirit and purpose and disagree on doctrine. It is the fact that we are born again that makes us family.
The day the church agrees on everything will be the day Christ returns.:shade:

While I do speak in tongues it is not a requirement of salvation and not all move in the same gifts and callings. That should not divide us.
While I firmly believe in and have experienced the Baptism of the Holy Spirit I knew Him and walked with Him before that event.
Do not allow non charismatic prejudices to limit God and His Word my friend.
 
It is time to test the spirits

I disagree.

quote]
I am okay with that my friend.

We can be united in spirit and purpose and disagree on doctrine. It is the fact that we are born again that makes us family.
The day the church agrees on everything will be the day Christ returns.:shade:

While I do speak in tongues it is not a requirement of salvation and not all move in the same gifts and callings. That should not divide us.
While I firmly believe in and have experienced the Baptism of the Holy Spirit I knew Him and walked with Him before that event.
Do not allow non charismatic prejudices to limit God and His Word my friend.

But that is the problem, isn't it? You say tongues is not a requirement of salvation BUT yet you claimed you knew Him and walked with Him before experiencing the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

Romans 8:But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

See how that experience has changed your testimony? Now whenever someone hears that and reads this, they will wonder because they had never experienced this dramatic outward display, they may not be saved at all.

My neighbor across the street testifies as you do. She was reading the Bible one day in her kitchen at the table when she claimed she got tired as something came over her. Then she referred to that something as the Holy Spirit when she began speaking in tongues.

What did that experience do for her? She began testifying that ... that was the moment she was saved when she got it all at once.

Then I asked her what she was reading in her Bible. She didn't know why I was asking that and she did not remember. I had assumed that if she got saved right then, she read something that made her finally believe, but it was not the case at all.

She went on to say that she visitted her pastor at church as she was wondering what had happened since she had believed all along. The pastor just pointed to a reference in Acts and said.. that is what has happened. ( I assume she was speaking about Acts 2 when the disciples were waiting around in the room doing other things on Pentecost)

I reminded her of verse 13 below:

Romans 10:11For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. 12For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

And what gets me is she testified of others in her church saying the same thing, but doing something else.. like everyday things and not like she was in reading her Bible... and she rolled her eyes about it, even though she did not relay what it was they were doing to what she rolled her eyes about. I did asked, but she did not went into details. Just everyday things.

I told her that was her test.

She should have tested the spirits and not believe every spirit for the experience did change her testimony about the Good News. Then I wondered about what the church was doing in worship that allowed this to occur in their private lives and not in worship. I am certain that worshipping the Holy Spirit was the cause of this.

Another testimony from another brother at another forum declares that he was not into tongues and yet he was attending a church at this one time where they were honouring the Holy Spirit. He described his encounter like this...what felt like liquid nitrogen seeping into his skull as he found himself confessing unwillingly an apology to this "Holy Spirit" for not believing that He operated in this fashion.

God prefers a willing apology, not a coerced one.

This "holy spirit" seemed like a bully compared to Jesus Whom is meek and lowly in heart in Whom we shall find rest for our souls. He was frightened by that experience by describing it as liquid nitrogen. Of course, after the fact, he testifies of it as a turning point in his relationship with the Lord.

A well known female televangelist will testify of the experience you had and those I have shared by declaring it as an anointing from the Lord to go into the ministry. She testified of the anointing of the Holy Spirit as she began speaking in tongues and the experience is no different than my neighbor's, but I do not see her being called into the ministry.

Everybody keeps sharing similar experiences and calling this event by different terms of the Holy Spirit as in baptism.. anointing.. sanctification, power, fire, and etc..but all that tells me is that no one really knows what that was or why then, but testimonies are being canged and the Gospel is being of no effect as another door is being presented for believers to seek after and walk through. It doesn't matter if they were not seeking it originally, but suffered a thief to break through by honouring the Holy Spirit or even seeking a continual refilling of the Spirit when John 5:22-23 says not to do that in relation to God the Father and that we are complete in Christ Colossians 2:5-10. You can only honour the Father through the Son. By broadening the way, they suffered a thief to break through.

Luke 12:39 And this know, that if the goodman of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched, and not have suffered his house to be broken through.

Wayward believers have to be delivered by Jesus to get to that point to being objective about their supernatural exeriences to discern by the scriptures and to see what it is leading them to do and say.

That is what it means to not believe every spirit, but test them. Otherwise, believers will be serving something else in His name instead of the Lord Jesus Christ for they cannot do both.
 
But that is the problem, isn't it? You say tongues is not a requirement of salvation BUT yet you claimed you knew Him and walked with Him before experiencing the baptism of the Holy Spirit.
I do not see a problem in that, Baptism is immersion. When you immerse something like say a cucumber into vinegar it still remains basically the same and yet due to that immersion it takes on new chacteristics and qualities.
Romans 8:But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

See how that experience has changed your testimony? Now whenever someone hears that and reads this, they will wonder because they had never experienced this dramatic outward display, they may not be saved at all.
I can't see that but I am sure there will always be a few who struggle with their security in Christ. The Baptism in the Holy Spirit should not illicite fear but a joyous expectation.God has not given us a spirit of fear but of love and of power and of a sound mind. Cast off that fear my friend.
To call the Baptism in the Holy Ghost an outward display is to totally miss what has happened. Immersion in the Spirit does generally coincide with the awakening of the gifts in that life true but the real change is in the depth of relationship and the greater awareness of God's will and heart.
My neighbor across the street testifies as you do. She was reading the Bible one day in her kitchen at the table when she claimed she got tired as something came over her. Then she referred to that something as the Holy Spirit when she began speaking in tongues.

What did that experience do for her? She began testifying that ... that was the moment she was saved when she got it all at once.

Then I asked her what she was reading in her Bible. She didn't know why I was asking that and she did not remember. I had assumed that if she got saved right then, she read something that made her finally believe, but it was not the case at all.
You can be saved without the Baptism, it is simply another step in the journey we are called to walk. There are no classes in Christ and all are loved equally. Obviously I cannot comment on what your neighbor experienced but I can share my journey.
Salvation comes by grace through faith and no other way but some have expereinced both events simultaniously.
She went on to say that she visitted her pastor at church as she was wondering what had happened since she had believed all along. The pastor just pointed to a reference in Acts and said.. that is what has happened. ( I assume she was speaking about Acts 2 when the disciples were waiting around in the room doing other things on Pentecost)

I reminded her of verse 13 below:

Romans 10:11For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. 12For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

And what gets me is she testified of others in her church saying the same thing, but doing something else.. like everyday things and not like she was in reading her Bible... and she rolled her eyes about it, even though she did not relay what it was they were doing to what she rolled her eyes about. I did asked, but she did not went into details. Just everyday things.

I told her that was her test.

She should have tested the spirits and not believe every spirit for the experience did change her testimony about the Good News. Then I wondered about what the church was doing in worship that allowed this to occur in their private lives and not in worship. I am certain that worshipping the Holy Spirit was the cause of this.

Another testimony from another brother at another forum declares that he was not into tongues and yet he was attending a church at this one time where they were honouring the Holy Spirit. He described his encounter like this...what felt like liquid nitrogen seeping into his skull as he found himself confessing unwillingly an apology to this "Holy Spirit" for not believing that He operated in this fashion.

God prefers a willing apology, not a coerced one.

This "holy spirit" seemed like a bully compared to Jesus Whom is meek and lowly in heart in Whom we shall find rest for our souls. He was frightened by that experience by describing it as liquid nitrogen. Of course, after the fact, he testifies of it as a turning point in his relationship with the Lord.
It seems as though you are missunderstanding these things. When I read that I see a man humbled by the reality of God's touch and repenting.
A well known female televangelist will testify of the experience you had and those I have shared by declaring it as an anointing from the Lord to go into the ministry. She testified of the anointing of the Holy Spirit as she began speaking in tongues and the experience is no different than my neighbor's, but I do not see her being called into the ministry.
The Baptism is availbable for all.
Everybody keeps sharing similar experiences and calling this event by different terms of the Holy Spirit as in baptism.. anointing.. sanctification, power, fire, and etc..but all that tells me is that no one really knows what that was or why then, but testimonies are being canged and the Gospel is being of no effect as another door is being presented for believers to seek after and walk through. It doesn't matter if they were not seeking it originally, but suffered a thief to break through by honouring the Holy Spirit or even seeking a continual refilling of the Spirit when John 5:22-23 says not to do that in relation to God the Father and that we are complete in Christ Colossians 2:5-10. You can only honour the Father through the Son. By broadening the way, they suffered a thief to break through.
I really think your prejudice towards this is keeping you from seeing clearly.
Luke 12:39 And this know, that if the goodman of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched, and not have suffered his house to be broken through.

Wayward believers have to be delivered by Jesus to get to that point to being objective about their supernatural exeriences to discern by the scriptures and to see what it is leading them to do and say.

That is what it means to not believe every spirit, but test them. Otherwise, believers will be serving something else in His name instead of the Lord Jesus Christ for they cannot do both.
The Baptism of the Holy Spirit only serves to increase ones zeal in serving God, loving God, communing with Him in fellowship and evangelising.
The Pharisee's were the religious leaders of Jesus day. When the power of the Holy Spirit was manifested they begin to attribute this to demonic powers and Jesus Christ Himeself gave them this warning:
<DIR>Mar 3:27 No man can enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he will first bind the strong man; and then he will spoil his house.
Mar 3:28 Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:
Mar 3:29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:

So on that note I would advise caution as you seem to be repating their mistake.
</DIR>
 
Please excuse my typing as I cannot find my glasses-lol!

Perhaps you will enjoy this article. It is what I consider to be a fair and balanced view of speaking in toungues (a subject that seems to bother you) throughout church history.


Tongues Throughout
Church History
By Rev. Mel C. Montgomery

INTRODUCTION

Some Christians believe that speaking in tongues was a temporary experience that ended with the Apostles.

I do not believe that.

I find no Scriptural support for cessationism.

But I do not consider cessationists to be my enemies. They are legitimate fellow believers who see things a little differently than I do, on one subject. Reasonable people can disagree without being enemies, or slinging the "h"-word (heretic) at each other.

All Scripture I can find clearly shows that these wonderful spiritual gifts were to continue to the honor and glory of Jesus Christ to this day, and until the Rapture.

Cessationism is Refuted
by Scripture and History.


A visitor to my website asked me recently to show proof from Early Church records, written by legitimate, orthodox Christian leaders, that speaking in tongues continued after the last apostle died, and to furnish the specific references so that he could look them up for himself.

I found this study to be an interesting journey indeed, that has bolstered my faith in the continuing work of the Holy Spirit in our day and hour.

As you will read in the next paragraphs, there are numerous ancient, reliable, orthodox references to speaking in tongues continuing centuries beyond the lives of the Apostles.

As we read these ancient eye-witness accounts, you will see that genuine speaking in tongues continued directly from the Day of Pentecost, through the lives of the Apostles in Acts, then onward in the Early Church, to the Medieval Church, to the Reformation Era, to the present.

Examine the evidence for yourself.


HISTORICAL RECORD


Cessationists argue that the moment the last Apostle died, or when the final sentence of the last book of the Bible had been written, all miracles including speaking in tongues ceased.

Are they correct?

Let's first establish the date that miracles supposedly ceased:

The Apostle Paul died somewhere between 64 AD and 69 AD, and the last Apostle, the Apostle John, died in 110 AD.

So let's compare the cut-off date, the year of the last Apostle's death, with the timeline of events in the Early Church:

Justin Martyr (100 ad--165 AD) was only 10 years old when the Apostle John died. He was an early Christian apologist. His works are the earliest Christian apologies, of substantial size, to survive to today.

Forty years after the Apostle John's death, he writes in 150 AD:

"For the prophetical gifts remain with us, even to this present time." (Dialogue with Trypho, Chapter 82).
And, "Now, it is possible to see amongst us women and men who possess gifts of the Spirit of God;" Dialogue with Trypho, Chapter 88.

It is simply beyond dispute that the prophetic gifts continued until 150 AD.--40 years after the last Apostle died.

Justin Martyr was no heretic. His writings are still accepted to this day by all theologians I know of, as sound teachings.


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Irenaeus (c.130-202 AD) was born 20 years after the last Apostle died.

He was bishop of Lugdunum in Gaul, which is now Lyon, France. His writings were formative in the early development of Christian theology. Like Justin Martyr, he was an early Christian apologist. His writings carry significant weight because he was a disciple of Polycarp, who had been a disciple of the Apostle John.

Irenaeus writes of believers in his day:

"Wherefore, also, those who are in truth His disciples, receiving grace from Him, do in His name perform [miracles], so as to promote the welfare of other men, according to the gift which each one has received from Him. For some do certainly and truly drive out devils, so that those who have thus been cleansed from evil spirits frequently both believe [in Christ] and join themselves to the Church. Others have foreknowledge of things to come: they see visions, and utter prophetic expressions. Others still, heal the sick by laying their hands upon them, and they are made whole. Yea, moreover, as I have said, the dead even have been raised up, and remained among us for many years. And what shall I more say? It is not possible to name the number of gifts which the Church, [scattered] throughout the whole world, has received from God, in the name of Jesus Christ," Irenaeus Against Heresies, Book II, Chapter 32, section 4.

Additionally Irenaeus writes:

"We speak wisdom among them that are perfect, terming those persons "perfect" who have received the Spirit of God, and who through the Spirit of God do speak in all languages, as he used Himself also to speak. In like manner we do also hear many brethren in the Church, who possess prophetic gifts, and who through the Spirit speak all kinds of languages, and bring to light for the general benefit the hidden things of men, and declare the mysteries of God," --Irenaeus Against Heresies, Book V. Chapter 6. section 1.

The writings of Irenaeus carry significant weight, especially concerning spiritual gifts considering:

Irenaeus had learned directly from Polycarp who had sat under the instruction of the Apostle John.
John had traveled with Christ and had spoken in tongues at Pentecost.
Surely the Apostle John knew genuine prophecy and genuine speaking in tongues when he experienced them and heard them in others.
It is only reasonable to assume that John passed clear teachings on to Polycarp, who in turn, passed such teachings and understandings on to Irenaeus.
Had John given any warning that the gifts would cease upon his death, both Polycarp and Iraneaus would have known of it.

Irenaeus testifies, in writings that exist to this day, that "prophetic expressions" and believers "who through the Spirit speak all kinds of languages" were so common and widespread in his life (130 - 202 AD) that "...it is not possible to name the number of gifts..."

His comments were written probably 80 to 90 years after the last Apostle died.

If these gifts ceased 90 years previously, then to what was Irenaeus referring?


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Tertullian (ca. 155-230 AD) was an Early Christian leader, and apologist.

In writing against the heretic Marcion, Tertullian writes:

"Let Marcion then exhibit, as gifts of his god, some prophets, such as have not spoken by human sense, but with the Spirit of God, such as have both predicted things to come, and have made manifest the secrets of the heart; let him produce a psalm, a vision, a prayer--only let it be by the Spirit, in an ecstasy, that is, in a rapture, whenever an interpretation of tongues has occurred to him;... Now all these signs (of spiritual gifts) are forthcoming from my side without any difficulty..."--Tertullian Against Marcion, Book 5 Chapter 8.

Tertullian wrote this 65 to 110 years after the last Apostle died. If these gifts were not inspired by the Spirit of God, then from whom did they come?



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Asterius Urbanus (ca. 232 AD) writes:

"For the Apostle [Paul] deems that the gift of prophecy should abide in all the church up to the time of the final advent."--The Extant Writings of Asterius Urbanus Chapter X.

Urbanus explicitly denies the theory of cessationism.



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Novatian (d. 258AD), was a theologian, scholar, and writer.

Novatian wrote:

"This is He who places prophets in the Church, instructs teachers, directs tongues, gives powers and healings, does wonderful works, often discrimination of spirits, affords powers of government, suggests counsels, and orders and arranges whatever other gifts there are of charismata; and thus make the Lord's Church everywhere, and in all, perfected and completed."--Treatise Concerning the Trinity Chapter 29.

This was written as late as 140 years after the death of John the Apostle.

If Novatian was not witnessing genuine charismata, true healings, and genuine tongues, then what was he witnessing?




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Hilary (c.300-367 AD), born 190 years after the last Apostle died, was bishop of Poitiers and considered an eminent Doctor of the Western Christian Church. He testified that speaking in tongues and interpreting were present in the Church in his lifetime.

Hilary wrote:

"For God hath set same in the Church, first apostles...secondly prophets...thirdly teachers...next mighty works, among which are the healing of diseases...and gifts of either speaking or interpreting divers kinds of tongues. Clearly these are [not were] the Church's agents of ministry and work of whom the body of Christ consists; and God has ordained them."--On the Trinity, Book 8 Chapter 33.

Hilary wrote this nearly two centuries after the last Apostle died.

Hilary was writing of speaking in tongues and interpreting occurring in orthodox Christian circles. He approved of them, calling tongues and interpretation and other gifts, "the Church's agents of ministry...and God has ordained them."

If the gifts ended with John's death, then this eminent Doctor of the Western Church was absolutely deceived.

What was he observing if not the genuine gifts of the Holy Spirit?



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Ambrose (c.340 – 397 AD), Bishop of Milan, was one of the most eminent bishops of the 4th century. Together with Augustine of Hippo, Jerome, and Gregory I, he is counted as one of the four doctors of the west of antique church history. (Wikipedia).

Ambrose wrote:

"As also the teacher of the Gentiles [Paul] tells us, when he says: "God hath set some in the Church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers; then miracles, the gift of healings, helps, governments, divers kinds of tongues.

See, God set apostles, and set prophets and teachers, gave the gift of healings, which you find above to be given by the Holy Spirit; gave divers kinds of tongues....Not all, says he, have the gift of healings, nor do all, says he, speak with tongues...as the Father gives the gift of tongues, so, too, has the Son also granted it."--Of the Holy Spirit 8, 149-151.

Written nearly three centuries after John's death.

Ambrose is not considered today to be a heretic. On the contrary, he is acknowledged as one of the first Doctors of Theology of the Early Church. And he writes of the gift of tongues in the present, not the past, tense.

Was he deceived also?



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Error in the Early Church

In the Early Church, as with the Modern Church, various schools of thought evolved into different groups. Some of these groups remained orthodox, some were mostly orthodox with a few doctrinal oddities or errors, and others fell off into deep error.

Tongues speaking Christians were not immune to the same failings experienced by the rest of the body of Christ.




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Montanism






After so many centuries have passed, combined with the fact that none of the original Montanist writings survived to today, our understanding of the Montanists is sketchy. But what little we know is disturbing.

Montanists followed the teachings of Montanus who claimed to be a Christian, and a prophet of sorts. He traveled through Asia Minor, teaching and operating in his gift, with two female companions Prisca, and Maximilla.

These two women claimed to be the embodiment of the Holy Spirit.

Montanus claimed also to be the Holy Spirit and related to others various visions, revelations, and prophecies he believed God had given him. Montanus and these two women were known as "the Three."

Prisca claimed to have seen Jesus Christ in a female form in a vision.

The teachings and prophecies of Montanus, Prisca and Maximilla were initially welcomed by the Church, but upon closer examination, and as the prophecies and teachings became more and more bizarre and unscriptural, they were properly rejected by the major Church leaders of the time. However, their false teachings and prophecies spawned a movement that lasted several centuries.

It is interesting to note the reason that their prophecies were rejected by the majority of the Church. They were rejected, not because the Church believed that the Gifts had ceased. No, these prophecies were initially welcomed, with the assumption that they were genuine. Prophecy was not unknown in the Church at the time. But these prophecies and teachings were rejected because the content of them were clearly unbiblical.

The question arises in my mind, did these three start out as orthodox Christians to whom God began to reveal Himself, and by giving God's written Word no heed, did they then slowly drift off into error? Or were they false prophets from the first day? After so many centuries, and with so little direct documentation, I can not say nor can anyone else.

Either way they are perfect examples of what Brother Hagin, Sister Goodwin, old-time Pentecostal leaders, and I have warned about. They were apparently open to every supernatural experience that came along, and they gave little, if any heed, to God's written word.

Brothers and Sisters, I don't care how supernatural the experience seems, how inspiring it seems, any vision, dream, revelation, prophecy, or message in tongues and interpretation that does not agree with the foundational doctrines of Christianity, is simply not from God and must be rejected.

I will repeat the point I make in other articles: We are to build our lives, ministries, and churches on the preaching and teaching of God's written Word. We are to hold fast to sound doctrine. Then, if God gives an utterance or revelation or miracle, we will know it is from God because such will always be in agreement with the Scriptures. If something supernatural manifests in our midst, and it glorifies man, leads away from faith in Jesus Christ, or contradicts God's written Word, it must be rejected without a moment's hesitation and without a second thought.

Montanus and his two companions did not hold fast to God's written Word and the teachings of the Apostles. They believed that their prophecies equaled or were greater than Scripture. That is gross error. No prophecy given after the completion of the Scriptures in the First and Second Centuries, to this day, is equal to Scripture.

These three made claims that I have never heard made in 26 years of attending Charismatic services. They claimed that they were God, or that they were the Holy Spirit. Prisca is quoted as saying when she was excommunicated, "I am driven away like the wolf from the sheep. I am no wolf: I am word and spirit and power." Such claims made by them or any other Christian is blasphemy, heresy, and nonsense.

People who flow in the Gift of Prophecy or tongues, are simply mere mortal Christians, vessels, through whom God chooses to flow in that moment to bless others. Only God is God. Our God is a jealous God, and He will not share His glory with another.

There are indications that Montanus and his followers, placed a gross over-emphasis on prophecy, and the prophetic office, and taught others to do the same.

No.

We place all of our emphasis and attention on the preaching and teaching of God's written Word. Then if the Gifts of the Holy Spirit come into manifestation, they are like icing on the cake. If they don't come into manifestation, then that is fine too. We just go ahead and continue to teach and preach God's Word.

Some who argue against speaking in tongues as a current-day experience, try to equate the current Charismatic Movement with Montanism. I believe they do this sincerely, but in ignorance.

They have never personally experienced speaking in tongues or prophecy. Nor have they been in our services frequently enough to observe over time what our actual teachings are, and how we apply them. When they attack Charismatics they are doing so out of fear and ignorance of something they have not experienced and do not understand.

I likewise, thought I knew all about salvation, when I was still a sinner. But I found that when I finally humbled myself, bowed my knees before the crucified Lord and accepted him into my heart, salvation was a much deeper, transforming experience than I had assumed it would be. Similarly, when you put aside misinterpretation of Scripture, ignorance of Church history, and see these wonderful gifts in operation where they are genuine and operate under close oversight so that everyone stays within Scriptural bounds, you find then to be far different than the opponents purport them to be.






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Lessons to be Learned
From the Montanists:


Over the years, many Spirit-filled Christians have made the same mistake that the Montanist movement made including:


1. Being open to practically any supernatural
experience.
2. Submitting to no seasoned oversight.
3. Receiving correction from no one.
4. Rejecting repeated warnings from other
Charismatic leaders of the time.
5. Giving God's written Word only casual
attention at best.
6. And veering from sound doctrine and
common sense.

Montanism was at its peak from AD 185 to 212. The bulk of Irenaeus' ministry and writings occurred at the same time.

So we see the steady stream of genuine speaking in tongues flow from the apostles, to Polycarp and other second-generation Christians, directly to Irenaeus and other third-generation Christians, while separately spiritual events took place among the Montanists and died out. But genuine spiritual gifts carried on outside of the Montanism--before, during, and after that heretical movement--in orthodox Christian churches as witnessed by Irenaeus, Urbanus, Novatian, Hilary, and Ambrose.

Tertullian is the only orthodox leader whose witness can be legitimately questioned because he became caught up in the Montanist movement for a period of time in his life. Thankfully though, historical accounts imply that he repented of these errors and returned to genuine Christianity at the end of his life.

So when Tertullian wrote of tongues, interpretation of tongues, and prophecy being "forthcoming from my side without any difficulty," we do not know if he was referring to these gifts operating in the orthodox church he came from, or the heretical church he entered into.

So, for the sake of argument, let's assume the worst. Let's assume he was writing of the heretical sect he eventually joined, and let's set aside his testimony for the time being.

That still leaves us with the testimonies of those who remained orthodox, recounting virtually the same observations:

Justin Martyr (100-165 AD),

Irenaeus (130 - 202 AD),

Asterius Urbanus (c. 232 AD),

Novatian (d. 258 AD),

Hilary (c. 300 - 367 AD),

and Ambrose (340 - 397 AD).

If the Gifts of the Holy Spirit, and speaking in tongues in particular, ceased with the last Apostle, what explanation do we give for the falsity of these eye-witness accounts left to us by Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Novatian, Hilary, Ambrose?

Did they deliberately deceive us?

Were they so gullible that each and everyone were hoodwinked by passing spiritual snake-oil salesmen?

I have yet to read a persuasive Cessationist explanation for these historical accounts.

Reasonable people may disagree on whether tongues is a present day experience.

But no fair-minded Christian can absolutely ignore Church history.

It is a historical fact, attested to by respected Early Church leaders, who left to us a written record of eye witness accounts, that speaking in tongues was taking place in their midst until the mid to late Fourth century.

This is beyond dispute.

The Cessationists’ claim that tongues ceased with the Apostles is clearly proven wrong by the historical record.

With that argument failing, Cessationists fall back on the argument that tongues continued only among those who knew the Apostles. But this argument falls short also when we note that the generation who knew the Apostles all died off, their children's generation died off, and their grandchildren's generation all died off, and tongues was still manifesting among orthodox believers three centuries after the Apostles.

With their secondary argument failing, Cessationists retreat into ambiguity, claiming that tongues and the other gifts "ceased somewhere back then."

"Somewhere" simply isn't good enough.

Extraordinary claims call for extraordinary proofs.

It would be extraordinary indeed for God to operate all but two of these gifts through men from the first chapters of Genesis, through the Law, the Prophets, the Gospels, then adding tongues and interpretation in Acts, and continuing all nine gifts through the Epistles, through the first Four nearly Five centuries of the Early Church, and then to abruptly withdraw them.

To accept such an astounding proposition, we would need substantial proof, certainly something more than sketchy theories, and historically inaccurate assumptions.

In 25 years of studying extensively the subject of spiritual gifts and speaking in tongues, I have yet to find a single anti-tongues argument that stood up to scriptural examination. Nor have I found one that fit with the clear historical record.

It is indisputable that the Gifts continued.

It is also indisputable also that the Gifts waned.

They did not "cease."

They could not have been "withdrawn," for:
"The gifts and calling of God are without repentance."--Rom. 11:29.

Or as the Amplified Bible translates it,

"For God's gifts and His call are irrevocable--He never withdraws them when once they are given, and He does not change His mind about those to whom He gives His grace or to whom He sends His call."

The Gifts did not cease, and could not be withdrawn, but they did eventually wane.

By the time of John Chrysostom, they were virtually unknown.


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John Chrysostom (347 - 407 AD) was a notable Christian bishop and preacher from the 4th and 5th centuries in Syria and Constantinople.

Chrysostom was baptized in 370, and was ordained a deacon in 381. Sometime between 381 and his death in 407, he wrote of the waning of the Gifts of the Spirit in locales with which he was familiar, and the general backslidden state of the Church. We will look at three quotes from his "Homilies of the Apostle Paul to the Corinthians."

Commenting on:

"Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant."--I Cor. 12:1,

John Chrysostom writes of the lack of these spiritual gifts in his day and locale:

"This whole place is very obscure: but the obscurity is produced by our ignorance of the facts referred to and by their cessation, being such as then used to occur but now no longer take place. And why do they not happen now?...why did they then happen, and now do so no more?

...Well: what did happen then? Whoever was baptized he straightway spake with tongues and not with tongues only, but many also prophesied, and some also performed many other wonderful works... they [the Corinthians] at once on their baptism received the Spirit...And one straightway spake in the Persian, another in the Roman, another in the Indian, another in some other such tongue: and this made manifest to them that were without that it is the Spirit in the very person speaking.... For as the Apostles themselves had received this sign first, so also the faithful went on receiving it, I mean, the gift of tongues; yet not this only but also many others: inasmuch as many used even to raise the dead and to cast out devils and to perform many other such wonders: and they had gifts too, some less, and some more. But more abundant than all was the gift of tongues among them..." ("Saint Chrysostom: Homily on the Epistles of Paul to the Corinthians," Phillip Schaff, 1889. Volume 12, Homily 29 NPNF 168-169).

"...For there were of old many who had also a gift of prayer, together with a tongue; and they prayed, and the tongue spake, praying either in the Persian or Latin language, but their understanding knew not what was spoken. ("Saint Chrysostom: Homily on the Epistles of Paul to the Corinthians," Phillip Schaff, 1889. Volume 12, Homily 35 NPNF 211).

In the same book in which Chrysostom laments the absence of the Gifts of the Holy Spirit, he ties this loss in with the backslidden, corrupted state of the Church at that time:

"What now can be more awful than these things? For in truth the Church was a heaven then, the Spirit governing all things, and moving each one of the rulers and making him inspired. But now we retain only the symbols of those gifts...they thus used to speak, not of their own wisdom, but moved by the Spirit. But not so now: (I speak of mine own case so far.) But the present Church is like a woman who hath fallen from her former prosperous days, and in many respects retains the symbols only of that ancient prosperity; displaying indeed the repositories and caskets of her golden ornaments, but bereft of her wealth: such an one doth the present Church resemble. And I say not this in respect of gifts: for it were nothing marvelous if it were this only: but in respect also of life and virtue." ("Saint Chrysostom: Homilies on the Epistles of Paul to the Corinthians," Phillp Schaff, 1889. Homily 36, NPNF 219-220).

This is the first written account we have of the Gifts of the Spirit no longer manifesting prolifically in the Church.

And the author--a Doctor of Theology, not a heretic--describes a Church not only lacking in the supernatural Gifts, but also bereft of life and virtue.

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Augustine (354-430 AD) concurs that the Gifts of the Spirit and speaking in tongues are unknown in his day. He writes around the year 400 AD:

"For who expects in these days that those on whom hands are laid that they may receive the Holy Spirit should forthwith begin to speak with tongues?" (Augustine, On Baptism, Against the Donatists, Section 3, Chapter 16, NPNF 443).

When the Church had "life and virtue" from Pentecost to the mid to late Fourth Century, the Gifts of the Spirit were present and widespread. By the late Fourth to early Fifth Centuries, the church was "bereft of life and virtue" and gifts.

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Why the Gifts Waned


The more you see the written Word of God replaced by the ideas of men in the Church, the less life, virtue, and spiritual gifts are present.

Jesus said of the Jews of his day:

"For God commanded...But you say...So for the sake of your tradition (the rules handed down by your forefathers), you have set aside the Word of God--depriving it of force and authority and making it of no effect. You pretenders--hypocrites!...Uselessly do they worship Me, for they teach as doctrines the commands of men."--Mat. 15:4-9 (Amplified).

There is a correlation here that most overlook. It had been God's will to heal the sick and work miracles throughout the Old Testament, and His will had not changed in Christ's day. But healings and miracles had largely disappeared from the Jewish experience by the time Christ began his ministry. The religious people then, like today, made excuses for the lack of miracles.

Had the Lord been like some Christians today, he would have began his ministry by preaching that miracles were only for Old Testament times, and that they were not needed in post-Old Testament Israel.

But he did not do that.

Instead, in the Scripture we just read, Jesus attributed the decline in miracles to hypocrisy, corruption, and the abandonment of God's written Word.

Note also that he did not allow the unbelief around him to stop him from working miracles. No, he went right ahead and healed the sick, cast out devils, and worked miracles.

For his trouble, the Pharisees claimed,

"He casts out devils through the prince of the devils."--Mat. 9:34.

That accusation is still around today: "Those Charismatics! I tell you, that's all of the Devil! God just don't heal anymore. The days of miracles are over. Speaking in tongues ceased long ago. These are all false miracles! False signs and wonders!" Christ did not allow similar accusations of false ministry to stop him in his day, and we can not allow them to stop us today.

As more and more of the philosophies and traditions of men were brought into the Church and given equal or greater standing than God's written Word, you see less and less life, virtue, and manifestations of the miraculous gifts of the Holy Spirit.

They never completely ceased, but they did steadily reduce to a mere trickle.

By the Middle Ages, the Church had reached the point where it lacked life, virtue, and power. Church leaders could have humbled themselves, addressed the corruption, and returned to the literal interpretation of God's Word. Instead, they began to claim that speaking in tongues and miracles were rare at best, and demonic at worst. "In fact by A.D. 1000 the Rituale Romanorum (Roman Ritual) defined glossalia as prima facie evidence of demon possession." (Vinson Synan, The Century of the Holy Spirit, page 20).

Today some Christians actually have adopted the same position and claim that speaking in tongues occurs now only when a person is under the power of demons.

Filled with corruption, greed, sin, and hypocrisy, and actively denouncing speaking in tongues, it is little wonder that speaking in tongues waned in the Medieval Church even further.

Some try to argue that after the Apostle John died, speaking in tongues continued only in heretical sects. But even one of the most determined critics of modern speaking in tongues has to grudgingly admit that tongues continued on in legitimate Christian churches long after the original apostles died:

"after the apostles tongue speaking was almost entirely isolated to the Gnostics and the Montantists." (Charismatic Chaos, John F. MacArthur, 1991, p. 234)

Please note that he states "almost entirely."

Even MacArthur does not claim and can not prove that tongues entirely died out in the Church after the last Apostle died.

If even the most virulent critic acknowledges that genuine speaking in tongues continued--no matter how rarely--in the true Church after the Apostles, I really don't understand why some continue to adamantly oppose speaking in tongues today.

In the Medieval Church, holiness waned and corruption increased. Do we therefore argue that holiness is not for today? Of course not.

Literal interpretation of God's Word became virtually non-existent at that time. Do we argue that literal interpretation is not for us today? No.

Then why do some argue that since speaking in tongues waned in the corrupted Church of the Middle Ages, tongues are therefore not for us today?

I fail to see the validity of that argument.

From the Fifth Century to the present, whenever the Church repented of its sin and backslidings, humbled itself, returned to faith in God's Word, and became passionate for Jesus Christ, the Gifts of the Holy Spirit including speaking in tongues usually returned.



 
I will write in detail of these in another post, but I will give a quick synopsis here. Tongues "T"--or other strong manifestations "M" of the Holy Spirit--occurred in or among:

· Waldenses in 1100's, Europe. Tongues "T".
· Albigenses in 1100's, Europe. "T".
· Franciscans in 1200's, Europe. "T".
· Anabaptists in 1500's, Europe. "T".
· Prophecy Movement in 1500's England. "T".
· Camisards, 1600's and 1700's, France. "T".
· Quakers, 1600's, in England. "T" "M."
· Jansenists, 1600's and 1700's in France.
· Pietists, 1600's in Germany.
· Methodists 1700's England. "M" but no "T."
· Second Great Awakening, 1800's, USA. "M" no "T".
· Irvingites, 1800's in England and USA. "M" and "T."
· Pentecostal Revival, USA, Europe, Asia, Africa, early 1900's miracles, healings. "M" and "T."
· Healing Revival, 1940's - 1950's, world-wide miracles, healings. "M" and "T".
· Charismatic Renewal, 1960's - 1970's, Protestants and Catholics, world-wide, miracles. "M" and "T." · Word of Faith/Teaching Revival, 1970's - 1980's, worldwide, healings, miracles. "M" and "T".
· Currently 537 MILLION Christians world-wide, in all major denominations, Protestant and Catholic, speak in other tongues.

Opponents to tongues disdain several of these groups that arose from the years 1000 to 1900 because some of them deviated sometimes slightly, sometimes greatly, from sound doctrine. Critics conclude therefore that speaking in tongues lead them into error.

No, speaking in tongues did not lead them into error.

Tongues did not lead the original Apostles, or the Early Church into error. Speaking in tongues, like prayer, baptisms, worship, and receiving communion continued in orthodox and non-orthodox Churches alike.

Many Christian groups and denominations that never spoke in tongues fell off into error over the centuries.

Among the many inaccurate positions the opponents to tongues take, is their assumption that if a person truly spoke in tongues, they would do so only in a state of extreme holiness, which would enable them to never sin, make a mistake, or be mislead.

This uninformed argument expects far too much from speaking in tongues.

Praying in English won't keep you from error.
Praying the Psalms won't keep you from error.
Praying various prayers from a prayer book won't keep you from error.
Neither will praying in tongues prevent you from going into error.

The Apostle Peter himself prayed in tongues, but fell off into error at one point in his ministry. Paul had to rebuke Peter for misconduct:

"But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed. For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision."--Gal 2:11,12.

If the Apostle Peter could speak in tongues, and yet slip into error, how are we any different?

Lastly, opponents of tongues argue that because false religions and cults make claims of speaking in tongues today or in the past, that we should conclude therefore that all speaking in tongues is false.

We have seen from the ancient references we quoted above, and MacArthur conceded as do we, that speaking in tongues occurred simultaneously in both orthodox Churches, and in heretical sects.

Just because tongues occurred among Montanists and Gnostics, while at the same time occurring in the true Church, no one denounces Irenaeus--a true Church leader of that day who witnessed and approved of tongues--as heretical.

Nor does anyone consider the Churches he was a part of--that did speak in tongues--as heretical or false churches.

No one argues that those genuine Christians spoke in demonic tongues simply because other false Christians claim to have spoken in tongues.

Claims of supposedly speaking in tongues among a tiny minority of the cults of the last 200 years do not trouble me. Some argue that the early leaders of the Mormons, the Jehovah's Witnesses, and the Christian Scientists, claimed to have spoken in tongues.

My response?

I doubt it.

I doubt that the leaders of these cults ever had any genuine experience with God, much less that they spoke in tongues. Joseph Smith, founder of the Mormons, claimed to have received his heretical teachings from the visitation of an angel from God.

Did an angel from God appear to him?

No.

Charles Russell, and Mary Baker Eddy, claimed likewise that the true Gospel had been lost for centuries until they rediscovered it through study and divine revelation.

Was the Gospel lost until those two fruitcakes rediscovered it?

Of course not.

That they throw in speaking in tongues along with all their other ridiculous claims carries no weight with me.

All three also baptized people. But I'm not going to let that stop me from baptizing new converts.

All three married people. That won't stop me from sanctifying marriages.

All three supposedly prayed, worshipped God, and read the Bible. That isn't going to stop me from doing the same.

There have been and always will be false apostles, false prophets, and false teachers.

Moses encountered two false prophets in Pharoah's court, which were able to perform miracles similar to those Moses performed. (II Tim. 3:8). But Moses didn't run out of the throne room in a panic, give up on being a prophet, and say, "I'll tell you what! That miracle working stuff is of the Devil!"

No.

He simply performed a series of far greater miracles than could those sorcerers. God can outdo the Devil any day of the week, and twice on Sunday.

Paul was confronted by a Jewish false prophet at Paphos. (Acts 13:6-11). But that didn't stop Paul from going ahead and operating in his prophetic and apostolic ministry there, and for many years afterward. He didn't say, "Gosh! I guess the days of miracles are over!"

No.

Paul just struck the false prophet blind, and demonstrated before all, whose god was bigger.

If Paul and Moses both refused to cower before false prophets, and give up on God's ability to work signs and wonders, I don't see why we should tremble either.

In Summation:

1. Multiple quotations from legitimate Early Church leaders, drawn from ancient writings still in existence today, show beyond any doubt that genuine speaking in tongues continued in Christian churches for centuries after the last Apostle died.


2. Those original sources expected all of the Gifts of the Holy Spirit including speaking in tongues to continue until the return of Christ.

3. Although speaking in tongues occurred both in orthodox Churches and in heretical sects, Early Church leaders did not use this as an occasion to reject all speaking in tongues. Neither should we.

4. Early Church leaders continued approving of tongues. So should we.

5. By the end of the Fourth Century, the gifts had waned.

6. It was believed at the time that the gifts had declined due to corruption and lifelessness in the Church.

7. Messages in tongues, prophecies, or revelations that do not agree with the foundational doctrines of Christ or any other part of God's Word, are simply not from God and must be rejected.

8. Speaking in tongues, or signs of various sorts, have revived with the majority of revivals that have come to the Body of Christ from the Fourth Century to today.

9. Speaking in tongues will not, nor will anything else, keep Christians from going off into error.

10. Cults then, and cults now, sometimes claim to have spoken in tongues. That should not stop us from allowing the Holy Spirit to manifest tongues in our midst.



Copyright Mel C. Montgomery All rights reserved. Material may be copied and shared with others as long as it is done so without charge, in entirety, and if attribution is given.
 
The Baptism of the Holy Spirit only serves to increase ones zeal in serving God, loving God, communing with Him in fellowship and evangelising.
The Pharisee's were the religious leaders of Jesus day. When the power of the Holy Spirit was manifested they begin to attribute this to demonic powers and Jesus Christ Himeself gave them this warning:

<DIR>Mar 3:27 No man can enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he will first bind the strong man; and then he will spoil his house.
Mar 3:28 Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:
Mar 3:29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:

So on that note I would advise caution as you seem to be repating their mistake.

</DIR>

That is a cop out for not testing the spirits. We are not to believe every spirit but test them. 1 John 4:1-7 You cannot say that a believer will never depart from the faith to allow themselves to heed seducing spirits because it has been prophesied that it will happen. 1 Timothy 4:1-2


I say to you that the Holy Spirit in the believer would never lead them to change the testimony of the Good News found in Jesus Christ.

Jesus refers to suffering a thief to break through. They do not stay, they would just come and go.

There is no danger in taking the concern to the Lord Jesus for prayer in discernment. And discerning of spirits is a manifestation of the Spirit as well. When was the last time you had seen that manifestation being deployed or utilized?
 
Enow how long have you been a Christian? What church do you attend?

Do not be offended by this but you are giving an outsiders view of a very personal experience with God.

Let's say we were discussing the taste of an apple. You could certainly study about that apple, you could measure it's shape, color and general appearance . Perhaps you could do scienctific studies on its composition and determine it's sugar levels but it is only after you taste that apple that you will truly know the experience.

In high school, my folks took me and my older brother to a "famous person's crusade" where healings were known to occur. He shall remain nameless as he now has a television ministry. ( Unless Chad allows me to cough up the name, I do not want to get in trouble)

In any event, We went there for my older brother and I to be healed of our hearing loss. I was deaf in my left ear and have tinnitus in my right ear. I went forward with all the faith and optimism that God would heal me. He called for the Holy Spirit to come and fall on me for this healing to occur. Nothing happened. Then he called for the Holy Spirit again. All I got was a tickling in my left ear. Everybody clapped and I was sent back to my seat. On the way home, I still felt the vibration in my ear as I continued to pray for the healing to continue. That was a Sunday evening.

On Monday.. after school, I came home and was unusually tired. I took a nap. When I woke up, there was a strong eltrical humming in the air as I found myself paralyzed. I could not move at all. I began praying to Jesus for help. Then I noticed I could flick my right wrist. Then i did the left wrist. Then I lifted the forearm off of the bed slightly and then the left. Then I was able to life the right elbow off and then the left, and by the time I got to my right shoulder moving up from my right side, then it was like coming out from something heavy.

I tasted that apple, all right?

Many years later, I saw on television on how the "holy Spirit" was coming down on people ad knocking them to the ground. Some were struck mute in mid-sentence while people clapped at that. Some were pinned to the ground and were unable to move. And of course, the usual shaking and convulsion that makes me wonder how this can not be seen as confusion?

Then in 1994, I was reading the Upper room or the Daily Bread booklet. For that daily reading at the bottom of the page was this question" Decide this day whom you will serve, the Lord Jesus christ or somehing else in His name". The way it jumped out at me... as if I was to see God's emphasis on this made me knew He wanted me to answer that. I said outloud, "You, of course," but the urgency of the moment seemed to remain as I prayed outloud, "Help me to do it." and the urgency left.

About a week later, I was at my Aunt's place in Missouri. Just that week prior, they had what they called a holy laughter movement. They showed a video of that last week's service, where they had a guest speaking trying to give a sermon on the tragedy of Samson and Delilah. He started to giggle and some of the people in the congregation did too. As he continued ... so were there intermittent spurts of giggling until it got more repetitive where he had to stop and announced to the giggling congregation to come forward saying that he did not know what the Holy Spirit was doing but he was just going to go with it. They all came forward and they all busted out in uncontrollable laughter, some falling to the floors.

Then when it was time for the service I had attended, the pastor called two young witnesses that spoke of something overcoming them. hen the pastor announced to the congregaion that he did not know what was going on, but he was going to gl along with it. He then declare that no man can make the Holy Spirit move, but man must move out of the way and the Holy Spirit will move in. And so they called people up... no sermon.. nothing. They just called people up as some fell to the groung shaking body parts and twicthing whereas only one person, an oriental young lady was laughing outloud the whole time.

Looking around alot and even behidn me, I noticed a lady spotting me. She moved from her spot in the pew across the aisle to my section behind me and walked way over and around the pew to position herself besides me. Then she fell back into the pew as if hit with something as I saw her looking out of the corner of her eye to see if I had witnessed it. I looked away, wondering what gain would anyone have for faking this? But as I was wondering about this, (my dad stormed out; he did not care for that nonsense, but my mother remained as well as my Aunt and cousins) I was being pushed from behind by an unseen force three times. There was no one anywhere near me.

I went forward wondering of God wanted me to go forward. Then I saw this as an opportunity to ask for healing again. Then they pushed me back as someone caught me and I got up and walked away mad at myself for falling for that again. On the way back to my aunt;s house, I was asking the Lord what was going on. I came across a David Wilkerson's newsletter on the role of the Holy Ghost. The Lord used that newsletter which the topic was based on scriptures as to what the Holy Spirit would do and not do as in the role of the Holy Ghost. I tried showing the reproofing to my aunt and cousins but they did not see the discerning line of greater is he that is in you than he that is in the world. I had a copy sent to the pastor. No change there either.

It wasn't until I had gotten home and sometime later that I.... duh.. realized that was the urgency the Lord was warning me about.

Later, He led me to see that He was sending two plumblines across the nation in 1994 to see who will depart from the faith to resort to their own power or chase after other gods. Promise Keepers and the "holy laughter" movement made its hit in the media that the 700 club reported it. The Lord made me see it as otherwise... a departure from the faith in Jesus Christ. The faithful witness will not speak of himself to seek his on glory as a promise keeper, and neither will the real indwelling Holy Spirit be moving about in the worship place to be felt and wham bam believers just to glorify himself in his comings and goings.

So that apple you are talking about has been tasted and found wanting in light of the Gospel.

I thank Jesus that I do not serve anything else in his name since the faithful witness and the real indwelling Holy Spirit seeks to glorify Jesus Christ.

And sadly, David Wilkerson Ministry went to the wayside. Although God used his newsletter at that time to help me discern the spirits by the scriptures, Wilkerson could not figure out why so many sign seekers were coming to his ministry, but they would be disappointed. I e-mailed him and told him why. He talks like them. He wrote in one of his later newsletter that "the Holy Spirit is brooding over New York." He talks about the Holy Spirit as if He is the Head of the church and that is why sign seekers were going there.

Now, sign seekers can go to his ministry and not be disappointed.

A little leaven leavens into the whole lump.

If the Holy Spirit testifies of Jesus, then so will I, because that is what He is leading me to do so as to honour the Son and glorify the Son and thus thereby the Father.... and nothing else in His name.

I thank Jesus for not letting me serve nor glorify anything else in His name because Jesus is the Gospel and His name is above every other name.

My concern for TalkJesus is growing as it appears it is being more and more TalkSpirit.... as if TalkJesus is not enough.
 
Perhaps you will enjoy this article. It is what I consider to be a fair and balanced view of speaking in toungues (a subject that seems to bother you) throughout church history.

It still does. ( P.S. I bet you are glad that copying and pasting was available, huh? Otherwise, you would have set a world record for typing with all of these posts)

You do realize that the reason these catholics leaders were testifying of this "hype" is to solidify the belief that this was proof that sound doctrines were being kept within the catholic church? I noticed how the articles kind of left that part out.

Let me ask you this.

Of all the Pentecostals and charismatics I have come across, there is this pervasive view that all catholics were going to hell. Have you come across that saying yet?

Anyway, the last time I heard that was from a preacher that was working at Wal-Mart at the time I was working. He told me that all catholics were going to hell. Knowing f his big hype about tongues, I testified that there are catholics that speak in tongues as there are charismatic catholic churches. Surprisingly... or maybe not.. he conceded that maybe some catholisc were saved after all. What? because they spoke in tongues? And yet he would hype up about all the dead works that deny Him and yet if they speak in tongues, then it is okay?

I just don't get that at all. As much as there is this move of the Spirit and all the manifestations are given to profit the body withal, at no time, whatsoever, did God reprove the works of catholicism by the gifts of the Spirit in all those years??!!!

And the holy laughter movement was no longer a streamlined Pentecostal nor charismatic event as it was happening in Protestant churches as well as Catholic churches.

What did Jesus prophesied in Matthew 7:13-27 ? In the days before the marriage supper of the Lamb, false prophets will arise to mislead many so bad that only a few will find the faith and be keeping it.

The false prophet will broaden the Way given in approaching God the Father by offering another invitation or another door besides Jesus Christ. The definition of anti-christ is not against Christ but "instead of Christ". The fruit of the false prophet will be ecumenical in nature as in gathering grapes of thorns and figs of thistles. They may use His name, but they are glorifying something else as the means in making a difference in the life of the believers as if faith in Jesus Christ is not enough.

All those denomenations in this "holy laughter" movement and the Promise Keepers movement was a two fold prophesy the Lord revealed unto me and is as coming from Him as scriptures reproves both of them. And the solution to avoid false spirits and false prophets in these latter days is to narrow the Way back to the straight gate: Luke 13:24-30 as in keep your eyes on Jesus: our first love: the Bridegroom.

I do not care to testify of those spectacular revelations from the Lord because no matter what, it is the scriptures He has led me to that will reprove the works of darkness as He causes the increase as only He can restore the wayward to the path of righteousness for His name's sake... and not by my presentation of the scriptures.

I must decrease so that He may increase. I must testify of Him and by the scriptures. I refuse to be the focus as the Holy Spirit and the manifestations are being treated. Jesus is the Gospel. I got nothing to glory about except in the Lord.
 
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I'm going to jump in early, and hope to head off any rebuff that I don't understand what you're saying or that I'm wrong or misguided. I've had to reread your posts to try to untangle what it is exactly that you're saying.

I do think that you make some very valid points. The notion that we aren't 'saved' until we speak in tongues is very wrong. We are saved by faith and belief in Jesus as the Son of God, not by the operation of any of the gifts in our lives. You can be operating in the gifts of the Holy Spirit and not be walking in an intimate relationship with God.

I do however, believe that we are to grow 'from glory to glory'. We shouldn't 'get saved' and then rest on our laurels. Jesus says that we have received 'every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places.' These spiritual blessings would include speaking in other tongues, gifts of healing, prophecy, and many we can't even yet comprehend. If we want to move from glory to glory, it makes sense that we ask to be moved, press in to Jesus, ask for more of His Spirit to indwell us and transform our inner man.

It would make sense that as 'we decrease, and He increases' within us that we would experience more of the supernatural outworking of His Holy Spirit.

Yes, I agree that we should focus all on Jesus, but Jesus is not separate from the Father or the Spirit of God (Holy Spirit). You can't 'worship Holy Spirit' separate from Jesus or Father God, because they are all one. Holy Spirit is the One Whom Jesus sent to bring us the counsels of God and His gifts. If we therefore ignore Him as you seem to suggest, are we in fact saying "Don't come near me Holy Spirit?" - and being a gentleman, He won't. He doesn't come if He's not wanted, and if He's grieved by our hardness of heart, He leaves. What are you missing out on if you refuse the messenger?

You don't show are great deal of liking for what has been labelled the 'Holy Laugther movement'. But did you no that holy laughter is nothing new? Neither is shaking, quaking, and falling down. They've been present and recorded since the early Church.

Many of your concerns are very valid, but it seems as though you have become so focused on the abuses of the supernatural gifts of the Holy Spirit that you have closed yourself off to all things supernatural. Seeing as how God is Himself a supernatural spirit being, isn't there a risk that you will close Him out in the process? Relationship with God isn't an intellectual exercise. If you're not experiencing His love in tangible ways you're missing out.

I am a little puzzled by your concerns for people who have received an infilling of the Holy Spirit and begun speaking in other tongues whilst they were alone and doing everyday things. It seems that you believe it to be wrong if anyone experiences such a thing outside an organized assembly. Is that what you were saying? Why? Abraham, the father of our faith, was often alone when he had his tangible experiences with the 'Angel of the LORD'.

Peter was alone on a roof when he 'fell into a trance' and had visions. John was alone when he 'was in the Spirit', and had a visitation of Jesus Christ. Mary was alone when an angel appeared and delivered a message of her giving birth to the Messiah and they conversed.

Paul writes in 1 Cor 1:18 "For the story and message of the cross is sheer absurdity and folly to those who are perishing and on their way to perdition, but to us who are being saved it is the [manifestation of] the power of God"

He gives the indication that salvation is a process. It would make sense that if we are undergoing a process then we will experience different stages and levels and not stay in the one spot with only an intellectual understanding of being saved. Our hope of salvation does as you reiterate, rest on our faith in Jesus, and I'm sure that the people you speak off as experiencing different manifestations of the Spirit believe that also. If they're basing their faith in Jesus on the presence of manifestations that's their problem and Jesus will teach them in the way that will best benefit them. But focus on manifestation does not make the manifestation diabolical (demonic).

I'm sure that in any congregation there are demons and angels working side by side in many instances. There have been many reports of what appears to be Holy and diabolical supernatural activity occuring side by side, and they can often 'appear' identical. Demons are copycats, so if there is a diabolical manifestation, there must be a similar but much better Holy version.

My question would be, why get all hung up on it? Why get hung up on terminology and semantics? If Yahweh has appointed us to be a prophet to the people and deliver messages of dire warning and such, then great, I hope we're grounded in His love so we don't blow it. But if He hasn't, it's enough for us to handle our own relationship with Him without trying to sort out everyone else's.

Wouldn't it be terrible if one day the LORD showed us that our interpretations and opinions were wrong and that we had weakened or diverted the faith of a brother or sister by speaking in ignorance? I have a feeling that I may have missed some of the points you were trying to make. I hope you can have grace and be patient with me.

I would say that if you don't like supernatural manifestations, then continue to avoid them, but it's not good to hold back others from entering in to the 'spiritual blessings' of a supernatural God just because you fear demons. If they err, God will set them straight, but at least they have a hunger to experience Him in tangible relationship. He isn't a harsh God who gives His children stones when they ask for fish. I myself, am not going to ignore my God in the person of Holy Spirit. I've had some bad encounters with the diabolical, but fear does not hold me because I trust in Holy Spirit completely to lead me in the way everlasting.
 
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Enow I appreciate the time you put into this thread, but I see nothing in the OP other than your interpretation (opinion). I am not anadvocate of the charismatic movement or the pentecostal denominations. I am not an advocate of any religious group or sect but I speak in tongues and I do it often, it builds me up in the Lord Jesus.

You are not the first person to challenge "speaking in tongues" or the "baptism into HolySpirit" here at TJ, just read some of the old threads. Your OP is very clear and easily read (great job). So you have done well and made your point. I think you are borderline between making your point and arguing your point. So please be careful.

I agree that "not everthing that glitters is gold" but I also agree with "don't throw out the baby with the bath water" too.

Bottom line is simple, if you have never tasted real butter then you are not qualified to critique fake butter.
 
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I do think that you make some very valid points. The notion that we aren't 'saved' until we speak in tongues is very wrong. We are saved by faith and belief in Jesus as the Son of God, not by the operation of any of the gifts in our lives. You can be operating in the gifts of the Holy Spirit and not be walking in an intimate relationship with God.

Although I believe the Holy Spirit will never leave the believer for we have been bought with a price and sealed as His, but I do doubt very much, any operation of the gifts of the Spirit would be continuing without the Lord reproving that believer's walk through those manifestations.

I do however, believe that we are to grow 'from glory to glory'. We shouldn't 'get saved' and then rest on our laurels. Jesus says that we have received 'every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places.'

That is the key point Jesus was trying to make. You have received it. Past tense.

These spiritual blessings would include speaking in other tongues, gifts of healing, prophecy, and many we can't even yet comprehend. If we want to move from glory to glory, it makes sense that we ask to be moved, press in to Jesus, ask for more of His Spirit to indwell us and transform our inner man.

That is where I disagree. We are to be renewing our minds, but there can be no seeking a refilling nor more filling of the Spirit for we are filled as in we have received the Spirit as promise. This is contingent to witnessing of our faith in Jesus Christ.

It would make sense that as 'we decrease, and He increases' within us that we would experience more of the supernatural outworking of His Holy Spirit.

I disagree there as well. The 'we decrease, and He increases' is not meant to be used as a spiritual format, but a guide to how we are to witness. New age channelers uses that spiritual format. They meditate, empty themselves, blank out all thoughts, and wait for the spirit guide to come. So no. The "we decrease, and He increases' can never be used in regards to the Spirit; just for how we are to witness.

And by applying that witness, the Holy Spirit will not speak of Himself as John 16:13 testifies so that He may glorify Jesus; John 16:14.

So no manifestation would be given to glorify the moment of the manifestation since it is given to profit the body withal in the knowledge of Him. Ephesians 4:11-16

Yes, I agree that we should focus all on Jesus, but Jesus is not separate from the Father or the Spirit of God (Holy Spirit). You can't 'worship Holy Spirit' separate from Jesus or Father God, because they are all one.

We are to worship God the Father IN spirit and IN truth and the only Way to the Father in that worship is through the Son. John 14:6 He is the Door only. John 10:1 John 10:7-11 If you agree that all the focus should be on Jesus, then you are doing whhat the indwelling Holy Spirit is leading you to do for His name is above every other name: Philippians 2:9-11

Holy Spirit is the One Whom Jesus sent to bring us the counsels of God and His gifts.

True, but where does the Holy Spirit get the gifts from? Philippians 1:11

If we therefore ignore Him as you seem to suggest, are we in fact saying "Don't come near me Holy Spirit?" -

No. That is not what I am saying. My faith says He is in me. I do not be rude to God over the promise for coming to Jesus and act and say as if He is not in me. Either He is in me as promised, or I am lacking faith.

and being a gentleman, He won't. He doesn't come if He's not wanted, and if He's grieved by our hardness of heart, He leaves. What are you missing out on if you refuse the messenger?

My point is.. He has come. Jesus cannot be My Good Shepherd unless the Holy Spirit is fulfilling the role of the Comforter of always abding in me. So there is no coming of the Holy Spirit for once He is come, He abides in us forever. You have to not believe every spirit when something comes over you. You are to test that spirit. Have you received the Spirit or does it have to happen again and again? One Spirit... one hope of our calling... one baptism says there is no other moment of the Spirit coming over us for we have received the Spirit by faith as promised for coming to Jesus. Ephesians 4:4-6

You don't show are great deal of liking for what has been labelled the 'Holy Laugther movement'. But did you no that holy laughter is nothing new? Neither is shaking, quaking, and falling down. They've been present and recorded since the early Church.

700 Club reported that in 1994, it was no longer a streamline Pentecostal nor charismatic event, so yes. I knew it has been going on. It is too bad that no one was discerning it and still aren't.

What manifestation does that fall under? Miracles? How is anyone edified? I don't see it. What happens when someone has a siezure? How is it that the falling down and convulsing thing is written in scriptures as relating to....???... and Jesus dealt with them. I do not see the manifestation of this gift, the diserning of spirits, being practised at all. This is nothing but... go with the flow of the spirit.

Many of your concerns are very valid, but it seems as though you have become so focused on the abuses of the supernatural gifts of the Holy Spirit that you have closed yourself off to all things supernatural. Seeing as how God is Himself a supernatural spirit being, isn't there a risk that you will close Him out in the process? Relationship with God isn't an intellectual exercise. If you're not experiencing His love in tangible ways you're missing out.

I do not understand how you can equate the tangible ways to mean signs and wonders. We get to know Him and the power of His resurrection when we see Him helping us to live as His by faith in Him apart from our efforts trying to keep the law to make us live as His.

I am a little puzzled by your concerns for people who have received an infilling of the Holy Spirit and begun speaking in other tongues whilst they were alone and doing everyday things. It seems that you believe it to be wrong if anyone experiences such a thing outside an organized assembly. Is that what you were saying? Why? Abraham, the father of our faith, was often alone when he had his tangible experiences with the 'Angel of the LORD'.

You did remember that you agreed by stating "The notion that we aren't 'saved' until we speak in tongues is very wrong. We are saved by faith and belief in Jesus as the Son of God, not by the operation of any of the gifts in our lives."

That was the problem I had with some accounting of those experiences as it changed their testimony about the Gospel.

Peter was alone on a roof when he 'fell into a trance' and had visions. John was alone when he 'was in the Spirit', and had a visitation of Jesus Christ. Mary was alone when an angel appeared and delivered a message of her giving birth to the Messiah and they conversed.

Neither Peter nor John had to have the Holy Spirit come on them for that to happen for He was already in them.

Paul writes in 1 Cor 1:18 "For the story and message of the cross is sheer absurdity and folly to those who are perishing and on their way to perdition, but to us who are being saved it is the [manifestation of] the power of God"

Read 1 Corinthians 16-18 in its entirety. Paul was referring to water baptism in how it is not necessary for God to save us by it, but by Jesus Christ the Lord. That is the power of God, not the manifestation.

He gives the indication that salvation is a process. It would make sense that if we are undergoing a process then we will experience different stages and levels and not stay in the one spot with only an intellectual understanding of being saved. Our hope of salvation does as you reiterate, rest on our faith in Jesus, and I'm sure that the people you speak off as experiencing different manifestations of the Spirit believe that also. If they're basing their faith in Jesus on the presence of manifestations that's their problem and Jesus will teach them in the way that will best benefit them. But focus on manifestation does not make the manifestation diabolical (demonic).

I'm sure that in any congregation there are demons and angels working side by side in many instances. There have been many reports of what appears to be Holy and diabolical supernatural activity occuring side by side, and they can often 'appear' identical. Demons are copycats, so if there is a diabolical manifestation, there must be a similar but much better Holy version.

My question would be, why get all hung up on it? Why get hung up on terminology and semantics? If Yahweh has appointed us to be a prophet to the people and deliver messages of dire warning and such, then great, I hope we're grounded in His love so we don't blow it. But if He hasn't, it's enough for us to handle our own relationship with Him without trying to sort out everyone else's.

Because it would be a lack of love on my part when they are abusing the gifts, seeking the Spirit which is not in according to our faith in Christ, and testifying of things in glorifying them that has nothing to do with edifying us in the knowledge of Jesus so that our love may aboudn yet more and more, but instead.. that love is being shared, and then stolen as more and more of that relations is towards the "spirit" than towards the actual Son of God... and the real indwelling holy Spirit would never do that... nor give manifestations in that manner.

Wouldn't it be terrible if one day the LORD showed us that our interpretations and opinions were wrong and that we had weakened or diverted the faith of a brother or sister by speaking in ignorance? I have a feeling that I may have missed some of the points you were trying to make. I hope you can have grace and be patient with me.

I have been led astray lots of times and the Lord has been patient with me, but when lesson has been learned, by His grace, I am to share that "talent" for the edification in the knowledge of Jesus Christ the Lord.

I would say that if you don't like supernatural manifestations, then continue to avoid them, but it's not good to hold back others from entering in to the 'spiritual blessings' of a supernatural God just because you fear demons.

I can't hold anyone back: just warn them about this: 1 Timothy 4:1-2
It has been prophesied that it will happen and so time for discernment with Jesus's help by the scriptures.

If they err, God will set them straight, but at least they have a hunger to experience Him in tangible relationship.

If they were really coming to God, they would not be hungering anymore. Proof? Jesus promised this: John 6:35

He isn't a harsh God who gives His children stones when they ask for fish. I myself, am not going to ignore my God in the person of Holy Spirit.

But that is the whole point of my faith in Jesus Christ by His grace. Why are believer asking for the Holy Spirit as if they had not received Him? Did they receive a stone, a serpent, or a scorpion instead? So there can be no more of the Holy Spirit to get unless by the scriptures, believers are seen as not really receiving the fullness of His promise for coming to and believing in Jesus. My faith says we are filled. We are not leaky vessels as the scriptures also declares: Matthew 9:17

I've had some bad encounters with the diabolical, but fear does not hold me because I trust in Holy Spirit completely to lead me in the way everlasting.

I put my trust in Jesus Christ, My Good Shepherd, to lead me by the Holy Spirit within me in the path of righteousness for His name's sake. I can only hopre that God may deliver some from the walk which does not testify of our faith in Jesus by word or by deed so that their faith may be clearly seen as not of the world.
 
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