Misrepresenting God to the lost - Do not make this mistake!

[KingJ]

There are so many personal doctrines, views, assumptions and theories we hold too religiously. This is fine as God does not force the truth on anyone. He wants free thought and free will to blossom. Space for all to learn and grow.

But!!! When we stand at a pulpit or push our theories on others, as we all do here on this discussion forum, we need to be aware of the implications of our message!!

Imagine being that person standing all alone before God of the universe, having to explain to Him why you misrepresented Him to the lost He loves and died for. Or stumbled those weak in the faith.
Matt 18:6 but whoso shall cause one of these little ones that believe on me to stumble, it is profitable for him that a great millstone should be hanged about his neck, and that he should be sunk in the depth of the sea.

''Oh, because scripture said X and Y, that is why I told all that you are the biggest monster in the universe''. This line my friends, will not hold water with God. We need to always cross question our beliefs. If we do not arrive at a picture of God that ticks all the blocks of the scriptures given us by prophets who defined Him, we need to 'keep quiet' or clearly state 'I assume', I 'personally' interpret, I am 'searching' and praying for more insight! False teaching

Prophets defined God as:

1. Good Psalm 136:1
2. Merciful Psalm 136:1
3. Righteous Psalm 145:17
4. Light with no darkness 1 John 1:5
5. One who does not change Num 23:19
6. Impartial Acts 10:34
7. Very definition of love 1 John 4:8

 

[B-A-C]

I wonder which is more dangerous?

Saying there is no danger of hell and the Lake of Fire, when really there is.. or,
Saying there is a danger of hell, and the Lake of Fire, when really there isn't.

 

[KingJ]

I wonder which is more dangerous?

Saying there is no danger of hell and the Lake of Fire, when really there is.. or,
Saying there is a danger of hell, and the Lake of Fire, when really there isn't.

Hell is a very delicate topic to discuss.

It is easy to misrepresent God and ensure He sit a top a list of the most evil beings to ever live in the minds of the lost.

Hell is real and necessary. A think tank of good people would agree with it. What nobody should agree with is torture. Discussion on Torture.

We need to ask the question ''how would saints punish and 'deal' with the wicked'' and then go a hundred levels up as only God is truly good Mark 10:18 and the definition of love. In opposition to ''how would the most evil people of all time punish those that hate them''. When we do this we grasp with crystal clarity the fact that saints would never place any in a brazen bull for a minute, let alone eternity. But the wicked, they would for a few hours, certainly unlikely any longer I would think. Sadly some Christians will teach that God will do something like this for all eternity.

 

[B-A-C]

Hell is a very delicate topic to discuss.

It never was for Jesus, He just told it like it is. He didn't pull any punches. He didn't care what anyone thought about it.

Matt 5:22; "But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court; and whoever says to his brother, 'You good-for-nothing,' shall be guilty before the supreme court; and whoever says, 'You fool,' shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell.
Matt 5:29; "If your right eye makes you stumble, tear it out and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to be thrown into hell.
Matt 5:30; "If your right hand makes you stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to go into hell.
Matt 10:28; "Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Matt 18:9; "If your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out and throw it from you. It is better for you to enter life with one eye, than to have two eyes and be cast into the fiery hell.
Matt 23:15; "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you travel around on sea and land to make one proselyte; and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves.
Matt 23:33; "You serpents, you brood of vipers, how will you escape the sentence of hell?
Mark 9:43; "If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life crippled, than, having your two hands, to go into hell, into the unquenchable fire,
Mark 9:45; "If your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life lame, than, having your two feet, to be cast into hell,
Mark 9:47; "If your eye causes you to stumble, throw it out; it is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, than, having two eyes, to be cast into hell,
Luke 12:5; "But I will warn you whom to fear: fear the One who, after He has killed, has authority to cast into hell; yes, I tell you, fear Him!
Matt 11:23; "And you, Capernaum, will not be exalted to heaven, will you? You will descend to Hades; for if the miracles had occurred in Sodom which occurred in you, it would have remained to this day.
Luke 10:15; "And you, Capernaum, will not be exalted to heaven, will you? You will be brought down to Hades!
Matt 25:45; "Then He will answer them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.'
Matt 25:46; "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

The original fire and brimstone preacher.

 

[KingJ]

It never was for Jesus, He just told it like it is. He didn't pull any punches. He didn't care what anyone thought about it.

Matt 5:22; "But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court; and whoever says to his brother, 'You good-for-nothing,' shall be guilty before the supreme court; and whoever says, 'You fool,' shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell.
Matt 5:29; "If your right eye makes you stumble, tear it out and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to be thrown into hell.
Matt 5:30; "If your right hand makes you stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to go into hell.
Matt 10:28; "Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Matt 18:9; "If your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out and throw it from you. It is better for you to enter life with one eye, than to have two eyes and be cast into the fiery hell.
Matt 23:15; "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you travel around on sea and land to make one proselyte; and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves.
Matt 23:33; "You serpents, you brood of vipers, how will you escape the sentence of hell?
Mark 9:43; "If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life crippled, than, having your two hands, to go into hell, into the unquenchable fire,
Mark 9:45; "If your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life lame, than, having your two feet, to be cast into hell,
Mark 9:47; "If your eye causes you to stumble, throw it out; it is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, than, having two eyes, to be cast into hell,
Luke 12:5; "But I will warn you whom to fear: fear the One who, after He has killed, has authority to cast into hell; yes, I tell you, fear Him!
Matt 11:23; "And you, Capernaum, will not be exalted to heaven, will you? You will descend to Hades; for if the miracles had occurred in Sodom which occurred in you, it would have remained to this day.
Luke 10:15; "And you, Capernaum, will not be exalted to heaven, will you? You will be brought down to Hades!
Matt 25:45; "Then He will answer them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.'
Matt 25:46; "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

The original fire and brimstone preacher.

Thank you for providing the perfect case study BAC.

You quote Jesus mentioning ''fear God, be terrified of Him, pluck out your eye, eternal punishment, fiery hell, cut off your hand'' and then end your post with a line ''original fire and brimstone preacher''.

You cherry pick scriptures to push your false narrative of hell and paint a picture of a terrifying God. Then mention that Jesus sanctions this. You want people to believe God has an evil side to Him that will torture the wicked for all eternity.

People who do this make my blood boil, as I would argue that you are not much better then devil in your representation of God. He also cherry picked scripture when he tempted Jesus.

My reply to you is the same as Jesus's reply to the devil.

Scripture from Jesus ''also'' says:

1. In Luke 16 Jesus explains in some detail the fires of Hades. The rich man asks for a drop of water on his tongue. Not something a witch being burnt at the stake or a person in a brazen bull will ask for.
2. In Luke 13:28 Jesus explains in detail why those in hell will weep and gnash their teeth. Namely, separation anxiety.
3. In Rom 2:6 Paul explains that the wicked will be punished according to what they did. Suggesting not all burn in fire for same amount of time. Or at the same heat. Punishment according to deeds.
4. In Rom 9:21 Paul explains that we must be terrified of God as He is God who can be evil. He can literally do whatever He wants. But the rest of scripture tells us that God chooses to be good and righteous in all His ways to the exclusion of none. See scriptures in OP.
5. In Rev 14:9-10 We read how the devil will be tormented in fire in front of God and the angels. Suggesting God has nothing to hide. He will be an open book to all in the punishment He dishes out.
6. In Mark 10:18 Jesus states that only God is perfectly good.
7. In Job 34:12 and I love this verse, Job states that it is ''unthinkable'' to imagine that God would do what is evil or pervert justice.
8. In Genesis God says to Adam and Eve that they will die if they eat the forbidden fruit. When they eat it, He says they will suffer, 1. Pain in childbirth, 2. Husband will rule over wife, 3. Cursed ground, 4. Dust to dust / no eternal life on earth. Yet earth is actually a very nice place all things considered. We have the tools to help with pain in childbirth. We have a police force to help woman with abuse. We have heavy machinery to help with farming. We have nice beaches, tools and talent for music, lights and alcohol for parties.
9. Both Moses (golden calf) and Abraham (Sodom) interrogated God on His actions that appeared unfair and harsh. What makes you think we will not have the ability to do the same with God when He dishes out punishment to the wicked?

Now, I must ask you, why do you not include these ''other'' essential passages and scriptures for context?

When we consider all of scripture on the topic. The following is clear:

We must be terrified of God as He is God. His decision on sending someone to heaven or hell is final. But He is a good God. He will never torture. Torture is always wicked Discussion on Torture. Hell will be a very nice place, just like earth is. But, just like on earth, there will be curses hanging over everyone's heads. It is these curses that make hell unpleasant.

1. Curse of eternal punishment. God judges your heart and mind at a depth of intent as only He can Jer 17:9-12 and concludes that your are 'sold out' to a love of what is evil.
2. Curse of separation. Because you are evil and live with evil people, saints will not be your neighbor. Your neighbor for eternity will be an unrepentant sinner. You will have parties with unrepentant sinners. Not that much fun.
3. Curse of darkness. Evil continues forever among those in hell as all are unrepentant sinners. This evil is a type of 'darkness' John 3:19. You get no reprieve from constant criminal activities. It is like living in Los Angeles everyday for the rest of your existence.
4. Curse of fire. As evil continues, punishment for said crime needs to be enforced. As the passages from Jesus that you posted clearly state, 'fire' is God's choice. So people in hell can expect a punishment of fire for X amount of time every time they sin.

You need to meditate a lot more on the topic of hell. It is a society of billions of humans and trillions of angels. Simply lazy discernment and heresy to paint the picture of all simply being thrown into a brazen bull for all eternity.

Without a doubt, hell is a bad place. It is better to enter heaven with one eye. But as scripture in context clearly states. Hell is not a bad place because God has a terribly evil side to Him. So please, lets all stop preaching half truths and misrepresenting God to the lost!

 

[KingJ]

If God tortured anyone, He would not be 'good' as Jesus says He is in Mark 10:18.

If you don't believe me. Allow me to throw you into a small hole that you can't climb out of for a few hours. Then lets' see if you would ever agree with someone calling me ''good'' if I did that to you for a week, let alone, month, year, decade, century, eternity.

 

[lentz]

If God tortured anyone, He would not be 'good' as Jesus says He is in Mark 10:18.

If you don't believe me. Allow me to throw you into a small hole that you can't climb out of for a few hours. Then lets' see if you would ever agree with someone calling me ''good'' if I did that to you for a week, let alone, month, year, decade, century, eternity.

He allowed Job to be tortured.
God doesnt think like you and i. We think with our hearts and frail human emotions. God is creator. Whatever he does is right and good. Its his to do with.

 

[KingJ]

He allowed Job to be tortured.
God doesnt think like you and i. We think with our hearts and frail human emotions. God is creator. Whatever he does is right and good. Its his to do with.

Lentz I cannot disagree more with you.

God chooses to work with us on our level. Yes, He can have a code of ethics separate to ours or literally do 'whatever' He wants. But all of scripture tells us that He does not. Literally, all. Right from Gen 3 when Adam and Eve at the forbidden fruit, He says that now humans will know good and evil just as He and the angels do.

So, in essence you are adding your opinion and assumption to scripture. There is a warning to all that do this when teaching to the lost Rev 22:19.

Now, as a Christian, you show terrible discernment if all you state to someone is ''God allowed Job to be tortured.....IE God does torture...because He is God, it is good....'' This kind of statement is why I made this thread. Your statement makes my blood boil.

If we study the A-Z of scripture, we see that God puts trials and tribulations on two types of people. These can be seen as torture. But it is very important to understand the A-Z of what exactly is taking place and the motivation for such. In the case of eternal hell, motivation for torturing those already banished can only be interpreted as sadistic and evil.

So, the two types of people are:

1. His People

God puts all His people through trials and tribulations. He does not put us through more then we can take. But make no mistake, He will take us to a limit of sort. Why does He do this? Why not just leave us alone? I believe it is so that we can have a deeper relationship with Him. If we are martyred for example, for all eternity you will know, others will know and God will know, that you were martyred for Him. Imagine the things God is going to trust you with in heaven and throughout eternity. This is the case with Job.

God = zero evil. Motivation is good, he does not test us beyond what we can endure and He is with us at every step.

2. The wicked that will not repent

God puts plagues on them. It is a last ditch attempt to try and save people from eternal punishment in hell.

God = zero evil. In fact this is good of Him. He could just leave them alone and let them die. A plague is a harsh warning. Last resort in getting wicked people to repent.

__________________

We do not have to state ''God is good, because He is God''. We can judge and discern matters. He gave us the ability to do this. Why, oh why, do so many not use it?

 

[lentz]

Lentz I cannot disagree more with you.

God chooses to work with us on our level. Yes, He can have a code of ethics separate to ours or literally do 'whatever' He wants. But all of scripture tells us that He does not. Literally, all. Right from Gen 3 when Adam and Eve at the forbidden fruit, He says that now humans will know good and evil just as He and the angels do.

So, in essence you are adding your opinion and assumption to scripture. There is a warning to all that do this when teaching to the lost Rev 22:19.

Now, as a Christian, you show terrible discernment if all you state to someone is ''God allowed Job to be tortured.....IE God does torture...because He is God, it is good....'' This kind of statement is why I made this thread. Your statement makes my blood boil.

If we study the A-Z of scripture, we see that God puts trials and tribulations on two types of people. These can be seen as torture. But it is very important to understand the A-Z of what exactly is taking place and the motivation for such. In the case of eternal hell, motivation for torturing those already banished can only be interpreted as sadistic and evil.

So, the two types of people are:

1. His People

God puts all His people through trials and tribulations. He does not put us through more then we can take. But make no mistake, He will take us to a limit of sort. Why does He do this? Why not just leave us alone? I believe it is so that we can have a deeper relationship with Him. If we are martyred for example, for all eternity you will know, others will know and God will know, that you were martyred for Him. Imagine the things God is going to trust you with in heaven and throughout eternity. This is the case with Job.

God = zero evil. Motivation is good, he does not test us beyond what we can endure and He is with us at every step.

2. The wicked that will not repent

God puts plagues on them. It is a last ditch attempt to try and save people from eternal punishment in hell.

God = zero evil. In fact this is good of Him. He could just leave them alone and let them die. A plague is a harsh warning. Last resort in getting wicked people to repent.

__________________

We do not have to state ''God is good, because He is God''. We can judge and discern matters. He gave us the ability to do this. Why, oh why, do so many not use it?

God is the creator...he can do whatever he wants. During the plagues in egypt im certain no one was smiling about it. During the tribulation there will be more torture and suffering than anyone can imagine. Face reality brother

 

[lentz]

If God tortured anyone, He would not be 'good' as Jesus says He is in Mark 10:18.

If you don't believe me. Allow me to throw you into a small hole that you can't climb out of for a few hours. Then lets' see if you would ever agree with someone calling me ''good'' if I did that to you for a week, let alone, month, year, decade, century, eternity.

If God does not punish in hell,then he wouldnt be just.
Yes God is good,merciful and longsuffering,but he is also just and righteous. And he can turn the screws.

 

[KingJ]

If God does not punish in hell,then he wouldnt be just.
Yes God is good,merciful and longsuffering,but he is also just and righteous. And he can turn the screws.

Nobody is against punishment. Torture is the issue. Please try focus on that.

When I punish my child, I ground them. I do not put them in a coffin and seal them up for an hour.

When I punish a criminal. I put them in prison. Force them to do community service. Force them to see a psychiatrist. I do not poke blades into their fingernails.

If you were a judge and had to give a serial rapist a sentence. What would it be?

1. Would you agree that if we repaid rape with rape, that would make us as evil as the rapist?
2. Would you agree that if we tortured the rapist, by putting him in a brazen bull and then taking him out before he dies, it would make us more evil then the rapist?

Judgement of matters and giving sentencing is something Christians should get right. There are many instructions from Paul to us to examine matters properly. In fact he rebuked Christians who couldn't in 1 Cor 6:1-9.

 

[lentz]

Nobody is against punishment. Torture is the issue. Please try focus on that.

When I punish my child, I ground them. I do not put them in a coffin and seal them up for an hour.

When I punish a criminal. I put them in prison. Force them to do community service. Force them to see a psychiatrist. I do not poke blades into their fingernails.

If you were a judge and had to give a serial rapist a sentence. What would it be?

1. Would you agree that if we repaid rape with rape, that would make us as evil as the rapist?
2. Would you agree that if we tortured the rapist, by putting him in a brazen bull and then taking him out before he dies, it would make us more evil then the rapist?

Judgement of matters and giving sentencing is something Christians should get right. There are many instructions from Paul to us to examine matters properly. In fact he rebuked Christians who couldn't in 1 Cor 6:1-9.

It is evident you are a babe in Christ. Not to putting you down,but you need strong instruction. God.bless

 

[B-A-C]

I don't think the question is... "Is God good". I don't think anyone is arguing the fact that God is good.

The question is... "Is torture always a bad thing".

To a teenager, an hour without their cell phone is excruciating pain, ...the worst torture imaginable. But it really isn't torture in the parents view.
You may have an idea of what you think torture is to God, but your view is likely distorted. You may have a view that says torture is always evil, but that may not agree with God's view.

This next paragraph is controversial in today's world, and in my opinion, the biggest problem with today's world...
When I was young, probably my early teens. I got spankings. I even got them from the coach at school. My dad would usually use a leather belt.
Sometimes, if he was really angry, he used a willow branch. The coach used a flat board with a couple of small holes drilled in it.

I can tell you, it hurt like the dickens. It got my attention. The leather belt wasn't so bad. It stung while I was getting the licks, and maybe 5 or 10 minutes afterwards.
The willow branch was another story, it sometimes left blisters, and I couldn't hardly sit down for a couple of days.

Now in today's society, some people would call that torture, child abuse, or who knows what. Some would say I need to call the police on my dad.
Ha, the police knew my dad, many of them were father's with same views on discipline as my dad. In any case, my dad passed away several years ago.
Do I hate and resent my dad? I did when I was a teenager. But in later years we got close, and to tell you the truth, I don't think I would have turned out like I did
without that discipline.

The plain and simple fact, the Bible says some people will be in agony, torment, and pain forever and ever. Period.
If that offends your sensibilities of what is good or evil, so be it. Maybe you need to revisit what constitutes good and evil.

God is good, no argument, no debate. We can quit having that discussion.
Is torture always evil.... no, not according to the Bible.

 

[KingJ]

It is evident you are a babe in Christ. Not to putting you down,but you need strong instruction. God.bless

Why not just try answer the question? You dodging. At least you spoke a bit. @B-A-C was like an AI bot. He comes, posts his scriptures and runs from correction and context.

 

[lentz]

Why not just try answer the question? You dodging. At least you spoke a bit. @B-A-C was like an AI bot. He comes, posts his scriptures and runs from correction and context.

I would have the rapist executed.

 

[KingJ]

I don't think the question is... "Is God good". I don't think anyone is arguing the fact that God is good.

The question is... "Is torture always a bad thing".

To a teenager, an hour without their cell phone is excruciating pain, ...the worst torture imaginable. But it really isn't torture in the parents view.
You may have an idea of what you think torture is to God, but your view is likely distorted. You may have a view that says torture is always evil, but that may not agree with God's view.

This next paragraph is controversial in today's world, and in my opinion, the biggest problem with today's world...
When I was young, probably my early teens. I got spankings. I even got them from the coach at school. My dad would usually use a leather belt.
Sometimes, if he was really angry, he used a willow branch. The coach used a flat board with a couple of small holes drilled in it.

I can tell you, it hurt like the dickens. It got my attention. The leather belt wasn't so bad. It stung while I was getting the licks, and maybe 5 or 10 minutes afterwards.
The willow branch was another story, it sometimes left blisters, and I couldn't hardly sit down for a couple of days.

Now in today's society, some people would call that torture, child abuse, or who knows what. Some would say I need to call the police on my dad.
Ha, the police knew my dad, many of them were father's with same views on discipline as my dad. In any case, my dad passed away several years ago.
Do I hate and resent my dad? I did when I was a teenager. But in later years we got close, and to tell you the truth, I don't think I would have turned out like I did
without that discipline.

The plain and simple fact, the Bible says some people will be in agony, torment, and pain forever and ever. Period.
If that offends your sensibilities of what is good or evil, so be it. Maybe you need to revisit what constitutes good and evil.

God is good, no argument, no debate. We can quit having that discussion.
Is torture always evil.... no, not according to the Bible.

Torture is always evil @B-A-C. You raise ''hidings'' and ''keeping cell phone from a child''.

Your mind is seriously not on the topic. You need to meditate more on what torture is. The difference between a hiding and a brazen bull is north vs south pole.

And no, in no universe and on no planet will anyone with more then a peanut between their ears call God '''good''' if He tortures.

Let me put it to you like this.....

Ask ONE BILLION children if they want Parent A. Gives children regular hidings that hurt ''like the dickens'' ...or parent B who places you in a coffin in the ground and buries you for three hours with a small straw to breathe through. I will bet you ONE MILLION dollars that your ''hidings'' will be chosen by all.

You know this, but yet you type like you can't grasp this. I honestly just feel like some Christians just 'don't think' much.

 

[KingJ]

I would have the rapist executed.

??? You are elusive. The focus of my post was on torture. You get personal with me and reply like you can't read...

If you visited an atheist forum you would be torn to pieces. Christians need to do ''better'' with their explanations and defense of God!!

 

[lentz]

??? You are elusive. The focus of my post was on torture. You get personal with me and reply like you can't read...

If you visited an atheist forum you would be torn to pieces. Christians need to do ''better'' with their explanations and defense of God!!

Excuse me! Your question was what would i do with a rapist.
Now for your original question,NO! Torture is not always good. But if God feels the need to use it,thats up to him. Who are you,or I to question him?

 

[KingJ]

Excuse me! Your question was what would i do with a rapist.
Now for your original question,NO! Torture is not always good. But if God feels the need to use it,thats up to him. Who are you,or I to question him?

I gave you two options, you made your own. That's fine, but you simply moving the goal post.

Who am I to question God?

Lentz, you are fine with serving a God that tortures? Imagine that. If the devil were god would you serve him? I am not fine with serving an evil God and no Christian and angel in heaven is either. I know my God is not evil. He is sadly simply misrepresented by some who can't properly read scripture in context.

Sometimes Christians really just put their foot in it. You need to also meditate on what exactly torture is before you make another post I feel.

 

[lentz]

I gave you two options, you made your own. That's fine, but you simply moving the goal post.

Who am I to question God?

Lentz, you are fine with serving a God that tortures? Imagine that. If the devil were god would you serve him? I am not fine with serving an evil God and no Christian and angel in heaven is either. I know my God is not evil. He is sadly simply misrepresented by some who can't properly read scripture in context.

Sometimes Christians really just put their foot in it. You need to also meditate on what exactly torture is before you make another post I feel.

I am fine with serving my creator. Its his universe. He can do what he pleases with it.