Modern Pharisees

[Timothy M.B.]

Many people pride themselves on having the right doctrines because they believe that they believe the right things. Believing the right things didn't stop the Pharisees from having Christ crucified when He showed them their beliefs didn't deliver them from being children of the devil. What have your doctrines done for you? Do you obey the Father in all things at all times? Or do you sin once in a while?

 

[jjkirk]

Timothy,
Welcome to Talk Jesus, We hope you benefit, and we benefit form one another, in fellowship.

As to your Post:
We can ask the same thing(s) of you.
Plus what is your definition of Doctrine?.
Please use scripture references when possible,
Peace be with you,
John.

 

[Adstar]

Do you obey the Father in all things at all times? Or do you sin once in a while?

Hello Timothy M.B.

This is a very strange set of related questions for me. You add the "Or" linking the two questions?

Can i take it that you think that if someone "sins once in a while" then they are in rebellion against the will of God and not saved??

Do you think salvation is conditioned on people successfully ceasing to sin?

As for doctrines? It would probably be best to deal with one doctrine at a time. Not all people who believe in God believe in the same doctrines.

Looking forward to your reply.

All praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Timothy M.B.]

jjkirk,

We can ask the same thing(s) of you.

Granted you are asking, yes, I do obey my Father in all things at all times.

Plus what is your definition of Doctrine?

Anything you believe or teach others.


Adstar,

Can i take it that you think that if someone "sins once in a while" then they are in rebellion against the will of God and not saved??

Do you think salvation is conditioned on people successfully ceasing to sin?

I don't think. It is written:

Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 1 John 3:6-9.

Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin. 1 Pet. 4:1.

But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins. Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall. 2 Pet. 1:9-10.

 

[pappa]

Many people pride themselves on having the right doctrines because they believe that they believe the right things. Believing the right things didn't stop the Pharisees from having Christ crucified when He showed them their beliefs didn't deliver them from being children of the devil. What have your doctrines done for you? Do you obey the Father in all things at all times? Or do you sin once in a while?

Very True.... (in the United States ... I don't know about other countries)

People believe in what they "perceive" to be the right things, just as the Pharisees did in Jesus time. The problem is that "doctrines" have splintered the christian church. Each religious group (including denominations) look at themselves as having some unique distinctive doctrine that sets them apart from everyone else. Consequently we have Catholics and Protestants of many varieties and each sees themselves as special. The result is that there are christian groups all over that don't talk to eachother. How many caucasian churches fellowship with black churches... how many baptists fellowship with pentecostals, etc. etc.

 

[Adstar]

jjkirk,



Granted you are asking, yes, I do obey my Father in all things at all times.



Anything you believe or teach others.


Adstar,



I don't think. It is written:

Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 1 John 3:6-9.

Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin. 1 Pet. 4:1.

But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins. Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall. 2 Pet. 1:9-10.

So i will take that as a Yes then.

So anyone who sins is not saved.

This is now the Doctrine you teach. Sinlessness in the flesh, before the reasurection.

You have set a measure to judge others by and therefore you have set a measure that you will be judged by.

Matthew 7:2"For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you.


1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His Word is not in us.

Don't bother telling me that you have ceased to sin.

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Jesuslovesu]

So can I ask have you never got angry with a person cutting you off in traffic or saying something that you dont agree with ? Someone told me that once you think you have "arrived" you are not even close! 1Jo 1:8 Ifwe say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

 

[Timothy M.B.]

I agree with what 1 John 1:8 says.

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

First of all, I never said that I had no sin. Second, Jesus said, "And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." John 8:32. When you know the truth and it is in you, do you still sin, or are you free to follow the Father as Jesus did?

With that said, I also want to say that I agree with what the rest of 1 John says.

Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not. 1 John 3:6-9; 5:18.

 

[Adstar]

First of all, I never said that I had no sin.

Then you are a sinner and by the very doctrine you preach you have condemn yourself.

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[pappa]

Then you are a sinner and by the very doctrine you preach you have condemn yourself.

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

Am not following this line of thought .... we are all sinners, all condemned by our sins. It's only by God's mercy and grace that our sins are forgiven.

As to the 1John passage .... remember that the tense of the original Greek word for "sinning" cannot be easily translated into english... but the gist of it is that those who "continue" in sin are not of God. There's a difference between those who overtly and continually practice a sinful lifestyle and those who get caught in sin occasionally and repent (If we confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins 1Jn 1:9).

If we are christians we have been forgiven. Although we occasionally (and even sometimes frequently) sin ... it is not in our new nature to live a life of sin.. that's what John is talking about. The fact that we recognise those occasional sinful acts and repent asking for God's forgiveness shows that we are sensitive to our behavior and willing to change. That's what the new nature is all about... that's what demonstrates we are "of God".

Those who are not "of God" don't/can't even recognize their sin because it is in their nature to sin and they know no different.

 

[Timothy M.B.]

adstar,

Then you are a sinner and by the very doctrine you preach you have condemn yourself.

No, I was a sinner. Now, because of the gospel, I obey my Father in all things at all times. This is not a doctrine, this is my testimony.


pappa,

Am not following this line of thought .... we are all sinners, all condemned by our sins. It's only by God's mercy and grace that our sins are forgiven.

And a sin not ceased is a sin not forgiven. That's the line of thought.

There's a difference between those who overtly and continually practice a sinful lifestyle and those who get caught in sin occasionally and repent (If we confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins 1Jn 1:9).

And what is the difference? Perhaps you need to include the rest of the verse you quoted.

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 1 John 1:9.

Does not ALL mean ALL? If you have been cleansed from ALL unrighteousness, how much is remaining? Granted, when one becomes a believer, they may still be involved in things that they genuinely may not be aware of as sinful. But that is not held against them until the light comes and they choose to remain in it. In which case there is no more sacrifice for them as it is written.

For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? Heb. 10:26-29.

These things are as simple as 1+1=2 when one lives by the Word and not by the satanic "once saved always saved" doctrine.

 

[pappa]

adstar,



No, I was a sinner. Now, because of the gospel, I obey my Father in all things at all times. This is not a doctrine, this is my testimony.


pappa,



And a sin not ceased is a sin not forgiven. That's the line of thought.



And what is the difference? Perhaps you need to include the rest of the verse you quoted.

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 1 John 1:9.

Does not ALL mean ALL? If you have been cleansed from ALL unrighteousness, how much is remaining? Granted, when one becomes a believer, they may still be involved in things that they genuinely may not be aware of as sinful. But that is not held against them until the light comes and they choose to remain in it. In which case there is no more sacrifice for them as it is written.

For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? Heb. 10:26-29.

These things are as simple as 1+1=2 when one lives by the Word and not by the satanic "once saved always saved" doctrine.

Well Timothy.... you've just condemned yourself and all of us with this theology... Show me the christian that has not "willfully" committed some act of sin.... and I will show you a liar. Our nature is to sin and while ALL (past and future) sins have been forgiven, we still stuggle with our sinful desires as Paul discussed in Rom 7. Does this mean that Paul was not forgiven?

Your theology negates the sacrifice of Christ on our behalf by limiting it to those sins we committed before we were saved and not those after.

As to your interpretation of the Heb text.... you completely missed the point, and have committed the error of proof texting to support your opinion. Here's the point of the passage...You need to take the whole passage and interpret it in context. Here's what it means.

In vs. 19-25 the author encourages christians to meet together and to treat eachother with love and encouragement and all this because we have been made clean by Christ's sacrifice.

In vs. 26-39 including the passage you quoted, the author is clearly referring to those who once heard the gospel and responded, but when things got tough they rejected the faith (v. 29 those who have "spurned the Son of God", "profaned the blood of the covenant" and "outraged the Spirit of Grace") This is clearly referring to someone once part of the church who then rejects it all.... not a christian who out of weakness commits an act of sin which he regrets and confesses.

Also you misunderstood the meaning of vs 26. Again the gist of the greek verb tense is not an isolated act of sin but a continual life style of sinning. The English Standard Version has a rendering that is closer to the greek meaning "For if we go on sinning deliberately".

Remember Jesus parable about the sower and the seed. Some seed fell on rocky soil and started to take root but because of the heat and the bad soil it shriveled up and died. That's what the author of Hebrews is talking about here... seed or knowledge that fell on rocky soil. These are the kind of people he is referring to. People who start to embrace the faith as long as things go well for them but who walk away when it brings adversity. If you finish the Heb chapter vs 32-39, you will see that he is encouraging christians to stand firm in their faith and not walk away in adversity.

Now as to your sarcastic remark about the doctrine Eternal Security... I'll be happy to discuss that with you. Please make your case against Eternal Security in a thoughtful critique backed up and scripture and logic. Then I'll respond.

 

[Adstar]

Yes pappa you now get the doctrine Timothy is teaching.

No, I was a sinner. Now, because of the gospel, I obey my Father in all things at all times. This is not a doctrine, this is my testimony.

Once again.



1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.





Do the administrators of this site support Timothy’s doctrine?



All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[pappa]

Yes pappa you now get the doctrine Timothy is teaching.







Once again.



1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.





Do the administrators of this site support Timothy’s doctrine?



All Praise The Ancient Of Days

I'm sure Timothy means well and is correct about the christians' responsibility to live out their faith by avoiding sinful behavior. But we must all be careful to interpret the scriptures correctly. That is let the scriptures speak for themselves in context.

It's always a temptation to go find scriptual passages that support your point of view. But pulling them out of context distorts their meaning. That's what Timothy did with his application of the Hebrews passage. The Bible means what it means, but sometimes you have to do some word studies to understand the meanings of the words in the original language to really get the meaning.... and you have to look at the entire passage to get the meaning.

We all need to be careful about how we interpret and apply the scriptures.

 

[jjkirk]

Do the administrators of this site support Timothy’s doctrine?

I am not an Administrator, but am a Moderator of Talk Jesus, and I for one am not in agreement with that doctrine.

Well for one example like most have said 1 John is pretty clear, and even the Apostle Paul admitted to being a sinner:


1Timothy 1:15 The saying is trustworthy and deserving of full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am the foremost.(ESV)

Peace be with you,
John

 

[Adstar]

I am not an Administrator, but am a Moderator of Talk Jesus, and I for one am not in agreement with that doctrine.

Well for one example like most have said 1 John is pretty clear, and even the Apostle Paul admitted to being a sinner:


1Timothy 1:15 The saying is trustworthy and deserving of full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am the foremost.(ESV)

Peace be with you,
John

Thanks for that jjkirk and a good verse too :thumbs_up

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Timothy M.B.]

[Edited by Moderator]
(Please when quoting Scripture provide Chapter, and Verse, and Version Persuant to The rules of Posting)



pappa,

Now as to your sarcastic remark about the doctrine Eternal Security... I'll be happy to discuss that with you. Please make your case against Eternal Security in a thoughtful critique backed up and scripture and logic. Then I'll respond.

If you want to discuss the subject, then start a thread on it. My purpose in starting this thread was to ask people what their doctrines (including their mastery of Greek & Hebrew) has done for them. No one has answered that quesiton yet but has only attacked my testimony by continually calling it doctrine.

But we must all be careful to interpret the scriptures correctly.

And what have your "correct" interpretations of the Scriptures do for you?


Adstar,

Once again.

1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

Once again, Jesus said, "You shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." I know the truth and I am free to follow the Father in all things at all times as Jesus did. This is my testimony. Sin is a choice and I choose to obey my Father.


jjkirk,

Well for one example like most have said 1 John is pretty clear, and even the Apostle Paul admitted to being a sinner.

So you believe Paul called himself the chief of sinners because he sinned all his life? Does Christ sin? Paul said, "I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me." Oh wait, let me guess, that verse doesn't really mean what it says because in the Greek it means... No, that's not it. Paul didn't really mean Christ when he said Christ because...

Thanks for that jjkirk and a good verse too

Yes, let's come up with as many verses and interpretations as possible to defend sin because that's what we love. All our energies are directed at defending it. If this weren't the case, then how come no one has bothered to ask me how I got into the place in life in which I testify of?

 

[Adstar]

Yes, let's come up with as many verses and interpretations as possible to defend sin because that's what we love. All our energies are directed at defending it. If this weren't the case, then how come no one has bothered to ask me how I got into the place in life in which I testify of?

Yes i thought you would try that tactic of putting words into my mouth that i did not say. Its what people do when they can no longer attack the thought they attack the person with lies.



Guess what it is a sin to bear false witness. And that is what you have just done.



Let everyone read my posts and find out where i promoted sin as good or anywhere on this forum where i have claimed that sin is good?



On the Contrary, sin is wrong and always has been wrong. Everyone indwelled by the Holy Spirit loves what is good and hates what is evil. All those indwelled by the Holy Spirit agree with the will of God. But agreeing with the law is not the same as successfully keeping the law all the time. No we still fall short of perfection because we still sin. But because we believe in The Messiah we rejoice that we are forgiven. It is His righteousness that covers us, not our own.



Talk about pharisees, Let everyone read the parable of the pharisee and the tax collector in the temple. And then read your boastful claim that you do not sin. Who do you sound most like? The pharisee or the tax collector.

Psalms 51:17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit, A broken and a contrite heart -- These, O God, You will not despise.


Isaiah 57:15 . For thus says the High and Lofty One Who inhabits eternity, whose name is Holy: "I dwell in the high and holy place, With him who has a contrite and humble spirit, To revive the spirit of the humble, And to revive the heart of the contrite ones.


All Praise The Ancient of Days

 

[beautiful ashes]

Dear Father, Lover of my soul

It is so quiet here in Your breast, far from the clamor and confusion of the earth. I come to comfort You and find myself comforted. I am so sorry that so many who say they are Yours continually exalt the devil above You. They don't know what they do.

It is as You said it would be. Your Son, in me and in all those who have received the fullness, is crucified afresh and put to open shame through the unbelief of the christian world.

I would cry, "How long, O, Lord?" except that I know You have done all to draw them away from their sin...given them power over their enemies and yet, they will not. They choose to be where they are.

Come down on them, My Precious Heavenly Friend, with the eyes that are needed to see as You see. Reveal the terrible consequences of their unbelief to them, if by chance even one of Your little ones, hidden in the masses, might be given strength to separate from the earth.

 

[Jesuslovesu]

Ok well here is what the Lord has done for me Saved me !!! Many things that I was doing was wrong and He has worked in me to take those. I agree that sin is a choice sometimes it is not very easy to see through the choice. You also need to remember that not everyone is not on the same understanding as everyone else. Everyone is at a different stage in their growth in Christ. Now tell me have you never got upset by something someone said (since following God)? never looked at someone with lust? Or how about a small lie you know like "I like that haircut or yeah this tastes great?" By saying you no longer sin since you said "I obey my Father in all things at all times" that makes your testamony seem Holier than thou. It seems you are saying that you have to be prefect to have salvation. I mean if we have to be perfect at all times. Why Grace????? I know we are to strive to be perfect to be Christ like! So tell me because I had a unpure though yesterday and I got upset with my bathroom sink ( I asked for forgiveness ) I am unsaved ? because I still sinned? I find it all confusing. As far as doctrine I already commented on that in a different thread. But I will type it again. No doctrine is right or wrong (unless completely false which I would get into but i feel this is already to long) It is about a relationship with Jesus Christ . May God Bless