Modern Pharisees

[beautiful ashes]

Consider this:

When you are a child, you do childish things. Then comes the time of maturity and you then become a man and put away childish things.

Christianity was born two thousand years ago. There has been a long period of growing up. Now that maturity has come, it is disgraceful to do those same childish things.

Shall a thirty year old man continue to nurse from his mother? Shall one with greying hair continue to have a fit because something does not go his way?

Christ has returned in human flesh and a new thing has come with it...that is, the union of Divinity with humanity. Long has He waited to become One with you.

And, all who enter in to this experience know the joy of their Lord.

 

[Jesuslovesu]

That still doesnt answer my question? I have not been around for 2000 years so I have not grown that much I have been a christian less than a year (not saying that someone who also has been a christian as long as I have cant be further along ) I mean no disrepect but it doesnt make sense. So Am I going about everything wrong? Does this mean I am not saved? Can only being perfect make you right with God? I am being serious not trying to poke at you thank you

 

[beautiful ashes]

What I am saying is that God has offered You, and everyone who will receive it, HIS VERY OWN LIFE to be lived out in your human flesh.

HE NEVER SINS.

Apostate christianity tells you that you have to try to be like Jesus and be real good and that you have to fail sometimes and you are only human. Well, that doctrine is "only human".

God is God and HE is the one living a righteous Life IN His children.

The way one receives this unspeakable gift is to allow God to empty you of your "self". There is only room for one in your soul.

Your experience as a christian is not only how long you have personally believed but it includes you standing on the shoulders of all true believers who have gone before you and receiving their experience.

What is given, what must be received, what all True Christianity HAS, is the fulness of the godhead bodily.

 

[Freedomwhatelse]

Thank You! Thank You Jesus!

Am not following this line of thought .... we are all sinners, all condemned by our sins. It's only by God's mercy and grace that our sins are forgiven.

As to the 1John passage .... remember that the tense of the original Greek word for "sinning" cannot be easily translated into english... but the gist of it is that those who "continue" in sin are not of God. There's a difference between those who overtly and continually practice a sinful lifestyle and those who get caught in sin occasionally and repent (If we confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins 1Jn 1:9).

If we are christians we have been forgiven. Although we occasionally (and even sometimes frequently) sin ... it is not in our new nature to live a life of sin.. that's what John is talking about. The fact that we recognise those occasional sinful acts and repent asking for God's forgiveness shows that we are sensitive to our behavior and willing to change. That's what the new nature is all about... that's what demonstrates we are "of God".

Those who are not "of God" don't/can't even recognize their sin because it is in their nature to sin and they know no different.

Thank You pappa for explaining that. Whew!!! I was starting to feel really condemmed from all of this. I do not have the sinful nature that I used to have. However I am learning everyday how to be more Christ like. I come apon things everyday that I have not done as Jesus would do that would according to the Law would be sin, and I ask for forgiveness and try not to do it again with the help of the Holy Spirit. I know that in God's eyes I am holy, blamless, and righteous, because I have my faith in Jesus. It is impossible to ever live like Jesus, sinless, but each and everyday I do my best to live to glorify Him.
Yours in Him!:rose:
God Bless. Love and Peace,

 

[jjkirk]

pappa,




jjkirk,



So you believe Paul called himself the chief of sinners because he sinned all his life? Does Christ sin? Paul said, "I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me." Oh wait, let me guess, that verse doesn't really mean what it says because in the Greek it means... No, that's not it. Paul didn't really mean Christ when he said Christ because...



Yes, let's come up with as many verses and interpretations as possible to defend sin because that's what we love. All our energies are directed at defending it. If this weren't the case, then how come no one has bothered to ask me how I got into the place in life in which I testify of?

Timothy,
First of all you are right infering about does Christ sin?, that is obviously NO.

But is Paul Christ??,
NO!
Gal 2:20 I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. (ESV)

Paul says right there the life he lives in the flesh he lives by Faith(Faith in Christs' atoning sacrifice for him and us). No where does he state he no longer was a sinner; Christ is the only one to have never sinned.
We all have sinned and still do.

I am not making up interpretations, but by prayer that the good Lord will guide me.

So lets keep this civil(Speaking the truth in LOVE), and not toss allegations at one another.

We as members of the body of Christ should be able to sit down and share with one another, without bickering about who is right. Lets use the word of God as instruction to guide us to the truth and show it in context to back up what we say.

May the peace of the Lord be with you always.
John.

 

[pappa]

[Edited by Moderator]
(Please when quoting Scripture provide Chapter, and Verse, and Version Persuant to The rules of Posting)



pappa,



If you want to discuss the subject, then start a thread on it. My purpose in starting this thread was to ask people what their doctrines (including their mastery of Greek & Hebrew) has done for them. No one has answered that quesiton yet but has only attacked my testimony by continually calling it doctrine.



And what have your "correct" interpretations of the Scriptures do for you?


Adstar,



Once again, Jesus said, "You shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." I know the truth and I am free to follow the Father in all things at all times as Jesus did. This is my testimony. Sin is a choice and I choose to obey my Father.


jjkirk,



So you believe Paul called himself the chief of sinners because he sinned all his life? Does Christ sin? Paul said, "I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me." Oh wait, let me guess, that verse doesn't really mean what it says because in the Greek it means... No, that's not it. Paul didn't really mean Christ when he said Christ because...



Yes, let's come up with as many verses and interpretations as possible to defend sin because that's what we love. All our energies are directed at defending it. If this weren't the case, then how come no one has bothered to ask me how I got into the place in life in which I testify of?

I'm sorry, Timothy, if I have offended you. That was not my intent. My intent was to discuss the issue you presented. I respect your opinion even if I disagree with it. But there are other legitimate points of view. I would hope we would all be open to hear and discuss those points of view with love and understanding. I do appreciate your testimony ... and as is the case for the rest of us we all want and try to live lives faithful to God.

However, in your testimony and your interpretation of scriptures (particularly the Hebrew passage) you did present a doctrinal issue and you even referred to it in your comment about the doctrine of eternal security. So our response was not so much to your testimony as to your view sin and the christian.

I think you are prone to use proof texting to make your points and I believe you risk misinterpreting the scriptures when you do that. I hold the scriptures in high regard... and get very concerned when I see someone mis interpreting as you did in the Hebrews case. So I encourage you to to be more careful in how you handle scriptures in the future. Food for thought.

Now I will ask the question of how you got into the place in life in which you testify of. I for one am interested in hearing more about your experience. thanks for offering.

 

[jimmy]

Timothy,
I have to tell you about the time when I was 10. My mother would send us to church to get us out of the house. At sunday school the teacher said that we all have sinned. He read the ten commandments. He then asked each one of us what sin we did? I thought about it and could not come up with one. He was getting close to picking me. I had to come up with one. If he was right and everyone has sinned I needed to come up with one. I know! It must be that I commited adultery. That was the only one that I didn't know what it met. (I have sinned sense then.)
Jesus came here and lived as a man. He didn't do anything that we cann't do. If you believe that he didn't sin why cann't you believe that we can live without sin.
We have to be careful because Jesus says do not judge others(Matt.7 1-3). If you say you have not sinned GOOD FOR YOU. I can not say that. I wished I could but I can not.

 

[pappa]

Thank You pappa for explaining that. Whew!!! I was starting to feel really condemmed from all of this. I do not have the sinful nature that I used to have. However I am learning everyday how to be more Christ like. I come apon things everyday that I have not done as Jesus would do that would according to the Law would be sin, and I ask for forgiveness and try not to do it again with the help of the Holy Spirit. I know that in God's eyes I am holy, blamless, and righteous, because I have my faith in Jesus. It is impossible to ever live like Jesus, sinless, but each and everyday I do my best to live to glorify Him.
Yours in Him!:rose:
God Bless. Love and Peace,

What a beautiful testimony of what living christian is all about. I'm glad that the correct understanding of the John passage clarified that issue for you. Thanks for the encouragement.

 

[Legacy]

Salvation will not leave me if i sin I will hold on to it. My Salvation brings me joy as well as correction. My Holyspirit teaches me my sin not me its not my responsibility to teach myself from my heart which is sin but to listen to the holyspirit and do as the word says. Many people have problems with believing fully in their salvation through Jesus Christ, When I suffer for christ im saved, when i love others im saved, when i am crucified im saved. No doctrine, or word of mouth can reverse the irreversible relationship with Christ. This is learned only by relationship with christ, those who are caught in religion cant seem to understand a personal truth of communion of your sins and thoughts to god. 1Cor1:21 For after that in the wisdom of god the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased god by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

 

[Timothy M.B.]

Adstar,

Yes i thought you would try that tactic of putting words into my mouth that i did not say. Its what people do when they can no longer attack the thought they attack the person with lies.

Guess what it is a sin to bear false witness. And that is what you have just done.

Let everyone read my posts and find out where i promoted sin as good or anywhere on this forum where i have claimed that sin is good?
On the Contrary, sin is wrong and always has been wrong. Everyone indwelled by the Holy Spirit loves what is good and hates what is evil. All those indwelled by the Holy Spirit agree with the will of God. But agreeing with the law is not the same as successfully keeping the law all the time. No we still fall short of perfection because we still sin. But because we believe in The Messiah we rejoice that we are forgiven. It is His righteousness that covers us, not our own.

You may not have specifically said that sin is good, but the truth is, "out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh." Mat. 12:34. If your heart is filled with righteousness, as you suggest, then why have expressed nothing but contempt toward me? If you don't agree with me, why can't you simply say that and go your way? Besides, all I did to start this thread was ask a question? If you don't want to answer it, then why are you even posting here?


Freedomwhatelse,

It is impossible to ever live like Jesus, sinless, but each and everyday I do my best to live to glorify Him.

Why is it impossible to live like Jesus?


jjkirk,

We as members of the body of Christ should be able to sit down and share with one another, without bickering about who is right. Lets use the word of God as instruction to guide us to the truth and show it in context to back up what we say.

I agree. But what makes one a member of the body of Christ?


pappa,

I'm sorry, Timothy, if I have offended you. That was not my intent. My intent was to discuss the issue you presented. I respect your opinion even if I disagree with it...I think you are prone to use proof texting to make your points and I believe you risk misinterpreting the scriptures when you do that. I hold the scriptures in high regard... and get very concerned when I see someone mis interpreting as you did in the Hebrews case. So I encourage you to to be more careful in how you handle scriptures in the future. Food for thought.

Now I will ask the question of how you got into the place in life in which you testify of. I for one am interested in hearing more about your experience. thanks for offering.

What a beautiful testimony [freedomwhatelse] of what living christian is all about. I'm glad that the correct understanding of the John passage clarified that issue for you. Thanks for the encouragement.

You have not offended me. I too could suggest that you are misinterpreting Scripture but that isn't necessary. I know exactly where you are coming from. Your accusations of my abuse of Scripture and your flattery of Freedomwhatelse's testimony are based on your presupposition that there is a difference between intentional sin and accidental sin. This is similar to the Catholic idea of mortal and venial sin. So tell me, what is the Scriptural definition of sin and where does Scripture distinguish between intentional and accidental sin? With all due respect, I have nothing else to share with you about me because you will simply critique everything else I say until this issue is resolved. As I just said to Adstar, this thread started with a question. If you dont' want to answer it, then why are you even posting here?


jimmy,

If you say you have not sinned GOOD FOR YOU. I can not say that. I wished I could but I can not.

I haven't said that I have not sinned. What I am saying is that the gospel that I have received has given me victory over sin. I no longer do what I will, but what my Father wills. The only reason a person can not say this is because they have received a counterfeit gospel. One that is contingent on believing the right things. With that said, do you still wish you could stop sinning?


Legacy,

Salvation will not leave me if i sin I will hold on to it.

What is salvation? What is sin?

 

[Adstar]

You may not have specifically said that sin is good, but the truth is, "out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh." Mat. 12:34. If your heart is filled with righteousness, as you suggest, then why have expressed nothing but contempt toward me?

Where did i say my heart was filled with rightiousness? Please provide the quote. If you cannot provide it then please apologise for once again bearing false witness against me.

I express nothing but contempt for the doctrine that you are preaching here. I attack the thought. Not you.

If you don't agree with me, why can't you simply say that and go your way? Besides, all I did to start this thread was ask a question? If you don't want to answer it, then why are you even posting here?

Because i am thinking of the babes in Jesus new to the faith who come in here to find out more and grow in faith. I will not just go away and let them be taught false doctrine with no resistance. How many people who are new to faith will read your words and knowing that they still sin have their hope destroyed? I will resist the sinlessness in the flesh doctrine for as long as i live.

To everyone reading:

1 John 1:8
If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.



All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[jjkirk]

jjkirk,



I agree. But what makes one a member of the body of Christ?

For as in one body we have many members, and the members do not all have the same function, so we, though many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another.Having gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, let us use them: .............. Romans 12:4-18(ESV)


This is only a brief picture of what makes one a member of the body of Christ. For the knowledge and wisdom of God runs deep so deep it is incomprehensible to mankind. We can only take morsels and when we put them together we begin to see the whole.

To be brief: What makes one a member of the Body of Christ is his blood, shed for us and we confess with our mouth(not lip service) and believe in our heart He is risen and he is the Messiah sent by the Father, and live accordingly and love as he loved, then we begin to understand what it is to be a member of the body of Christ.... To be One with Christ.



Peace be with you,
John.

 

[pappa]

Timothy... your comments...

"You have not offended me. I too could suggest that you are misinterpreting Scripture but that isn't necessary. I know exactly where you are coming from. Your accusations of my abuse of Scripture and your flattery of Freedomwhatelse's testimony are based on your presupposition that there is a difference between intentional sin and accidental sin. This is similar to the Catholic idea of mortal and venial sin. So tell me, what is the Scriptural definition of sin and where does Scripture distinguish between intentional and accidental sin? With all due respect, I have nothing else to share with you about me because you will simply critique everything else I say until this issue is resolved. As I just said to Adstar, this thread started with a question. If you dont' want to answer it, then why are you even posting here?"

You're right, I was responding to your response to Adstar's question. So to actually answer your question ... I don't believe in right doctrines. I believe in Biblical truth as specifically stated in the Bible. Doctrines are derived from the Bible and other places and as such are subject to error.... opinions are projections are projections of personal presuppositions upon the Bible. Yes there are those who put doctrine above the Bible.

However in your response to Adstar you brought up a doctrinal issue ... the problem of eternal security... whether you admit it or not. You brought forth portions of scripture from 1John and Hebrews without doing the appropriate word studies or understanding the meaning in context of the entire passage. That led you to a misunderstanding and a misapplication of the subject of the christian and sin. My clarification on those passages was so that others on the forum... particularly newer christians would not be discouraged by your your inaccurate interpretations.

As to the Catholic concept of two types of sin... I hope you are not putting words in my mouth that I did not say. Actually, you were the one who brought up the difference between sins committed without knowning and sins that are overt acts. You indicated that sins committed without knowing can be forgiven and those that overt acts (even in weakness) cannot. Actually, I don't make that distinction.

You also said..

"I haven't said that I have not sinned. What I am saying is that the gospel that I have received has given me victory over sin. I no longer do what I will, but what my Father wills. The only reason a person can not say this is because they have received a counterfeit gospel. One that is contingent on believing the right things. With that said, do you still wish you could stop sinning?"

Actually, this is your doctrinal statement. And in it you also state that those who have a different view are in error because they follow a "counterfeit gospel". That's fine if you want to take that position... just be honest and recognise that it is your doctrinal statement.

Also recognise that there are others on the forum that have a different opinion and they are faithful followers of Christ. And for you to accuse them of following a "counterfeit gospel" because they believe differently than you is just not right. That in itself is a non loving act that I would categorize as sin. It almost sound as if you are saying that once you have been saved by faith, staying saved is by works. That sounds more like the pharisees than those you are accusing.

 

[Timothy M.B.]

Adstar,

Where did i say my heart was filled with rightiousness? Please provide the quote.

You did say, "It is His righteousness that covers us, not our own." I simply used the words heart filled with righteousness as a paraphrase. If your testimony is that you sin, then your heart is not filled with righteousness, and neither are you covered by it.

I express nothing but contempt for the doctrine that you are preaching here. I attack the thought. Not you.

Where in Scripture does it say that contempt is one of the fruits of the Spirit? As I've said before, the fact that I obey my Father is not a doctrine, it is my testimony. By attacking my testimony, you are attacking me. I have no contempt toward you because your testimony or your beliefs are no threat to me. All I did was ask the question, what have your beliefs done for you?

How many people who are new to faith will read your words and knowing that they still sin have their hope destroyed?

How many people who are new to the faith will read my words and know that they too can receive the gospel I've received and live a life that is in obedience with the Father?

To everyone reading:

1 John 1:8
If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

To everyone reading:

Let's take a look at this verse in its context since Adstar quotes it with almost every reply to defend his or her sin.

That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ. And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full. This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. 1 John 1:3-10.

It is very clear that John is addressing this letter to people who do not "have fellowship with us." Then he goes on to talk about the benefits of having "fellowship one with another" and being cleansed from all sin. Then he addresses the possibility of someone believing they don't have any sin to be cleansed; that they are a liar and the truth is not in them. Nowhere in this passage does it even suggest that those who do "have fellowship with us" continue in sin. On the contrary, John goes on to say in this same letter, "Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God." 1 John 3:9.

Now, some have suggested that what John really means in that verse is that whosoever is born of God doesn't sin on purpose, only by accident. To those I would ask, what is the Biblical definition of sin and where in Scripture does it distinguish between intentional and accidental sin?


jjkirk,

For the knowledge and wisdom of God runs deep so deep it is incomprehensible to mankind.

It's not incomprehensible to me, for it is written:

But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things. 1 John 2:20.

then we begin to understand what it is to be a member of the body of Christ.... To be One with Christ.

I agree. But what is the standard that distinguishes between those who are truly one with Christ and those who only claim, or believe, or have an idea of what being one with Christ is?

 

[evangeline]

The definition of sin (Gk - harmatia) is literally "missing the mark." It can be any thought or action or inaction that mars us from being perfect, complete or fully mature as Jesus Christ was. He was the only human being that could truthfully say that he fully did the will of the Father and that He was totally without sin.

We all can identify with Paul and say that we are sinners saved by grace and faith in Jesus name and not by any good works. If we try to justify ourselves by our goodness we are in danger of nullifying the precious and amazing grace of God!!!

We are not saved by perfect theology or correct doctrines but by complete faith in the saving power of Jesus Christ. Amen

love
evangeline

 

[pappa]

OK... Timothy.... I give up... I think you are wrong in your reading of 1John and I have told you why. You believe what you want (your doctrines). Just spare us your attemps to convince us that your doctrine is the right one and the rest of us follow a false gospel.

Your method of interpretation is a example of what you say you are arguing against. You have defined your doctrine about the christian and sin and color your reading of the scriptures by that doctrine. I think this thread has gone as far as it can reasonable go.

 

[Chad]

Yes pappa you now get the doctrine Timothy is teaching.



Once again.


1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.


Do the administrators of this site support Timothy’s doctrine?


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

I certainly disagree with Timothy. You are contradicting yourself brother. I suggest you ask GOD for wisdom and stop fooling yourself with that "perceiving ways" because if anything. you are the one with "pride" so don't worry about others, fix yourself first with the help of Christ.

 

[Chad]

What is salvation? What is sin?

You are truly lost my friend. You are fooling yourself ruthlessly and just not aligned with GOD with this "doctrine" or "view" per se. I really think you should put away YOUR pride and ask GOD for forgiveness and guideance or else you will dig your own grave because of such a human view of yours instead of what GOD says is Truth in the Holy Bible. I will pray that GOD will guide you as I always ask GOD to guide me too. I am not perfect, I sin every day and not happy but am 100% grateful for GOD's grace and --- GIFT --- of salvation through Jesus Christ.

 

[Chad]

Timothy, your attitude towards everyone has been unacceptable and un-Christlike. I will give you two choices: apologize to those you insulted or find the door out Talk Jesus because this place is for fellowship and spreading the gospel, not deceiving others or ourselves thinking we are now sinless.

There is no need to throw such comments at others just because their "view" is not yours. I will not waste time quoting as it is best for others to read the entire original posts from the first page to the last.

Talk Jesus is about praising and worship Jesus Christ, Savior, our GOD. Not fighting and lashing at others. Period.

 

[Chad]

I agree. But what is the standard that distinguishes between those who are truly one with Christ and those who only claim, or believe, or have an idea of what being one with Christ is?

Scripture = Truth
Christ = Savior & Judge

Who the question is...answer is GOD determines this according to His Truth found in the Bible. Not you, not me.