Once a person is saved are they always saved? When peop

[blessed07]

The most frequent objections to the belief that a Christian cannot lose salvation are 1) What about those who are Christians and continually live an immoral lifestyle? 2) What about those who are Christians but later reject the faith and deny Christ? The problem with these two objections is the :clapping::clapping::clappinghrase “who are Christians.” The Bible declares that a true Christian will not live a continually immoral lifestyle (1 John 3:6). The Bible declares that anyone who departs the faith is demonstrating that he never truly was a Christian (1 John 2:19). Therefore, neither objection is valid. Christians do not continually live immoral lifestyles, nor do they reject the faith and deny Christ. Such actions are proof that they were never redeemed.

No, a Christian cannot lose salvation. Nothing can separate a Christian from God’s love (Romans 8:38-39). Nothing can remove a Christian from God’s hand (John 10:28-29). God is both willing and able to guarantee and maintain the salvation He has given us. Jude 24-25, “To Him who is able to keep you from falling and to present you before his glorious presence without fault and with great joy—to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.”

 

[blessed07]

i am sorry!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

i am so sorry i post this question twice , :cry-animated::cry-animated::cry-animated:

 

[spirit1st]

We Must understand? Salvation is a NEW CREATURE that cannot sin!
1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.


1Jn 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

1Pe 1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Rom 4:8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

1Pe 1:4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,


Jas 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.


Rom 5:15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

 

[april showers]

Spirit1st, you bring up a point that is so little emphasized in modern Christian teaching. Salvation is deliverance from sin. Does that happen all in one fell swoop? No. I think that is why God gives us such a long time on this earth, so He can piece by piece get at all the types of sin that are resident in our fleshly nature.

For those believers who die young, as I said in another thread, I do think that growth continues in the next realm in some way. However, if we are alive on this earth, this is our great opportunity to let God operate on us and remove all the old nature, and replace it with His nature.

So can a person lose their salvation? If someone chooses to go back into sin, they will undo what God has done in them.

Being saved has to do with enduring to the end, which implies living a life of daily faithfulness to God.

 

[rojoloco]

So can a person lose their salvation? If someone chooses to go back into sin, they will undo what God has done in them.

If you have died spiritually and become a new creature in Christ, do you believe you have the power to resurrect yourself? If the Spirit has regenerated your heart, do you believe you can reverse the work of God? Furthermore, do you believe you are keeping yourself in God or do you believe God is keeping you in Him? If you believe the former, you are suffering in a work's based faith that revolves around merit. If you believe the latter, you should take peace in the fact that God has promised to see His work through to completion (Philippians 1:6).

For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.

Being saved has to do with enduring to the end, which implies living a life of daily faithfulness to God.

Actually, being saved has to do with all 3 persons of the Trinity. The Father calls, the Son secures, and the Spirit effects. The Father chose you before the foundation of the world. He gave you to the Son, drew you unto Himself, and called you. The Son secured your salvation by the atonement. His blood was both propitiatory as well as expiatory. By propitiation, he settled our debt and by expiation he removed our sins from us. He also imputes his righteousness unto us through justification. The Spirit effectually transforms us through the process of regeneration. We die to our old selves and arise as a new creature in Christ with our very bodies being the dwelling place of the Holy Spirit. It is all a completed act that never has to be redone.

 

[MelodyC]

There is one verse that makes it clear people can FALL AWAY.

HEB 6:4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, 6 if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

I've heard some people try to make out the person cannot be saved in the first place but it is clear the person was "ONCE ENLIGHTENED", then saying if the fall away so the ability to do so must be there if we are being warned you can't come back if you FALL AWAY.

2PE 1:10 Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never fall, 11 and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

Here it is intimated you can FALL but there are things you can do to make your salvation (election) sure.

MT 24:9 "Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10 At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11 and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13 but he who stands firm to the end will be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

It is verses like these that have convinced me that there is a possibility of people walking away from their salvation. I can't believe that these are people who are not saved because they are called "Enlightened", the are described as being "elected" and having Faith.

Even though I am not a person who believes "once saved always saved", I'm not insecure about my salvation either. However that is another thread topic. "How do you know you are Saved?"

 

[MelodyC]

Spirit1st, you bring up a point that is so little emphasized in modern Christian teaching. Salvation is deliverance from sin. Does that happen all in one fell swoop? No. I think that is why God gives us such a long time on this earth, so He can piece by piece get at all the types of sin that are resident in our fleshly nature.

For those believers who die young, as I said in another thread, I do think that growth continues in the next realm in some way. However, if we are alive on this earth, this is our great opportunity to let God operate on us and remove all the old nature, and replace it with His nature.

So can a person lose their salvation? If someone chooses to go back into sin, they will undo what God has done in them.

Being saved has to do with enduring to the end, which implies living a life of daily faithfulness to God.

YES! A very good point! Makes me think of the following verses.

2PE 2:17 These men are springs without water and mists driven by a storm. Blackest darkness is reserved for them. 18 For they mouth empty, boastful words and, by appealing to the lustful desires of sinful human nature, they entice people who are just escaping from those who live in error. 19 They promise them freedom, while they themselves are slaves of depravity--for a man is a slave to whatever has mastered him. 20 If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. 21 It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. 22 Of them the proverbs are true: "A dog returns to its vomit," and, "A sow that is washed goes back to her wallowing in the mud."

 

[spirit1st]

We must understand, Salvation is a NEW being! one who cannot sin!
We would have to be able to sin , to lose salvation!

The carnal judgment is incorrect!
The spiritual judgment is correct!

1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

 

[Donald]

Read ezekiel 18

How do you interpret Ezek 18 emphasis on verse 4+24?

Eze 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

Eze 18:24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.

If we say that a person who is saved cannot lose their salvation would give them a ticket to do exactly as they liked because then they can do anything they want to without fear of losing that salvation.

What did Paul say to the Corrinthians in 2 Cor 11:1:3

2Co 11:1 Would to God ye could bear with me a little in my folly: and indeed bear with me.
2Co 11:2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.
2Co 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

Why did Paul write the book of Galatians: Read Chapter 3.

What do you say about 1 Corinthians 5 where there was a man committing fornication. He was to be handed over to Satan for the desctruction of the flesh so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. He must be put out of fellowship because if left unchallenged he would influence the whole congregation! He ends the chapter with

1Co 5:11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.
1Co 5:12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?
1Co 5:13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

There are many pointers in the New testament where the Apostles brought to the attention of the believers false teachers who come in to devour the church, why would they if they could not be influenced in the wrong manner and move away from what they believe.

I leave with Samson a man who was righteous before God who was seduced by Delialah (a symbol representing the world and its systems) disobeyed God and lost the Glory of God because of it. He slew a thousand men with a jaw bone of a donkey (Symbolic of the Word of God, in new testabment terms he would have brought a thousand men to Christ through the ministry of the Word). These things have been written as examples for us to see and move away from.

Jdg 16:18 And when Delilah saw that he had told her all his heart, she sent and called for the lords of the Philistines, saying, Come up this once, for he hath shewed me all his heart. Then the lords of the Philistines came up unto her, and brought money in their hand.
Jdg 16:19 And she made him sleep upon her knees; and she called for a man, and she caused him to shave off the seven locks of his head; and she began to afflict him, and his strength went from him.
Jdg 16:20 And she said, The Philistines be upon thee, Samson. And he awoke out of his sleep, and said, I will go out as at other times before, and shake myself. And he wist not that the LORD was departed from him. He went out but did not know that the Lord had departed from Him.

What about Saul the king of Israel who disobeyed God and God rejected him as king. He was annointed, filled with the Spirit of God, but chose to disobey and lost everything.

It is good to encourage the church and lift them up in their time of need. The verses you quoted are true for those who love God and shun evil for the love God is to obey Him. Friendship with the world is enmity towards God (James 4:4). Love the people in the world but not what they do. Reach out and use the Word to draw the lost to Christ and encourage those in the body of Christ.

 

[rojoloco]

There is one verse that makes it clear people can FALL AWAY.

I've heard some people try to make out the person cannot be saved in the first place but it is clear the person was "ONCE ENLIGHTENED", then saying if the fall away so the ability to do so must be there if we are being warned you can't come back if you FALL AWAY.

Wrong. Note that it says the person only tasted it. He was never indwelt with the Spirit. It is saying if one comes with full knowledge and experience yet then rejects and leaves, there is no hope for him to ever see the Truth for what it really is. The person in Hebrews 9:27 is not a believer.

As I said, if one is a believer, he is already justified by the atonement and God is performing a good work within him. I trust in Scripture when it says that whatever God starts in a person, He will complete. To say that a man can reverse that is to call God a liar and to say you can interrupt His uninterruptable work.

Here it is intimated you can FALL but there are things you can do to make your salvation (election) sure.

Do you see the contradiction here? If you are elect, you did not do it yourself. If you did it yourself, you were not elected. That would become merited. Furthermore, if you are of the Elect, God already has a sure plan for you.

It is verses like these that have convinced me that there is a possibility of people walking away from their salvation. I can't believe that these are people who are not saved because they are called "Enlightened", the are described as being "elected" and having Faith.

Again, those who fell away were not true believers. They are those people who see it, live it, and taste it, yet never dive head first into it. Even the parable of the seed and the sower speaks of false converts such as these. They are here for a season and then go away. Elsewhere, Christ says these people had to leave to show that they were never really of the Church. If they had been of the Church, the shepherd would have gone out and brought them back because he will not lose a single one of the Elect whom the Father has given to him.

Even though I am not a person who believes "once saved always saved", I'm not insecure about my salvation either. However that is another thread topic. "How do you know you are Saved?"

I am also quite secure about my salvation. However, it is not based on merit or anything I believe I can keep myself. My hope is in the complete work of the stripes and through the finality of the resurrection.

 

[Boanerges]

How do you interpret Ezek 18 emphasis on verse 4+24?

Eze 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

Eze 18:24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.

If we say that a person who is saved cannot lose their salvation would give them a ticket to do exactly as they liked because then they can do anything they want to without fear of losing that salvation.

What did Paul say to the Corrinthians in 2 Cor 11:1:3

2Co 11:1 Would to God ye could bear with me a little in my folly: and indeed bear with me.
2Co 11:2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.
2Co 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

Why did Paul write the book of Galatians: Read Chapter 3.

What do you say about 1 Corinthians 5 where there was a man committing fornication. He was to be handed over to Satan for the desctruction of the flesh so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. He must be put out of fellowship because if left unchallenged he would influence the whole congregation! He ends the chapter with

1Co 5:11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.
1Co 5:12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?
1Co 5:13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

There are many pointers in the New testament where the Apostles brought to the attention of the believers false teachers who come in to devour the church, why would they if they could not be influenced in the wrong manner and move away from what they believe.

I leave with Samson a man who was righteous before God who was seduced by Delialah (a symbol representing the world and its systems) disobeyed God and lost the Glory of God because of it. He slew a thousand men with a jaw bone of a donkey (Symbolic of the Word of God, in new testabment terms he would have brought a thousand men to Christ through the ministry of the Word). These things have been written as examples for us to see and move away from.

Jdg 16:18 And when Delilah saw that he had told her all his heart, she sent and called for the lords of the Philistines, saying, Come up this once, for he hath shewed me all his heart. Then the lords of the Philistines came up unto her, and brought money in their hand.
Jdg 16:19 And she made him sleep upon her knees; and she called for a man, and she caused him to shave off the seven locks of his head; and she began to afflict him, and his strength went from him.
Jdg 16:20 And she said, The Philistines be upon thee, Samson. And he awoke out of his sleep, and said, I will go out as at other times before, and shake myself. And he wist not that the LORD was departed from him. He went out but did not know that the Lord had departed from Him.

What about Saul the king of Israel who disobeyed God and God rejected him as king. He was annointed, filled with the Spirit of God, but chose to disobey and lost everything.

It is good to encourage the church and lift them up in their time of need. The verses you quoted are true for those who love God and shun evil for the love God is to obey Him. Friendship with the world is enmity towards God (James 4:4). Love the people in the world but not what they do. Reach out and use the Word to draw the lost to Christ and encourage those in the body of Christ.

Those lost are tares amongst the wheat. They are the stony soil, tasting God's goodness and preferring the world and it's anti- Christ spirit - they never really knew Jesus. Even those who abide in His church who walk along in their own strength, wisdom and leadership will do much. But again these will again find that they were always lost and He will tell the the most dreaded of all things- "depart form me, I never knew you". All that is done in the darkness of one's heart will be brought to life. Those who understand that their only claim to eternal life is total dependence on the shed blood of Christ will never be lost.
I just look at it this way my freind:
1Jn 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

 

[MelodyC]

Wrong. Note that it says the person only tasted it. He was never indwelt with the Spirit. It is saying if one comes with full knowledge and experience yet then rejects and leaves, there is no hope for him to ever see the Truth for what it really is. The person in Hebrews 9:27 is not a believer.

As I said, if one is a believer, he is already justified by the atonement and God is performing a good work within him. I trust in Scripture when it says that whatever God starts in a person, He will complete. To say that a man can reverse that is to call God a liar and to say you can interrupt His uninterruptable work.



Do you see the contradiction here? If you are elect, you did not do it yourself. If you did it yourself, you were not elected. That would become merited. Furthermore, if you are of the Elect, God already has a sure plan for you.



Again, those who fell away were not true believers. They are those people who see it, live it, and taste it, yet never dive head first into it. Even the parable of the seed and the sower speaks of false converts such as these. They are here for a season and then go away. Elsewhere, Christ says these people had to leave to show that they were never really of the Church. If they had been of the Church, the shepherd would have gone out and brought them back because he will not lose a single one of the Elect whom the Father has given to him.



I am also quite secure about my salvation. However, it is not based on merit or anything I believe I can keep myself. My hope is in the complete work of the stripes and through the finality of the resurrection.

Yeah I've heard that supposed explaination of these verses but it don't hold water if you ask me.

If we can't lose our salvation there would be little reason to make the effort to stop sinning.

On the topic of salvation you don't actually have it now, you inherit it later. Salvation is the goal of one's faith. We have the Holy Spirit given to us as our guarantee until the day of salvation comes. It is kept in heaven for you by the Lord, so you can't keep it yourself.

1PE 1:3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade--kept in heaven for you, 5 who through faith are shielded by God's power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time. 6 In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while you may have had to suffer grief in all kinds of trials. 7 These have come so that your faith--of greater worth than gold, which perishes even though refined by fire--may be proved genuine and may result in praise, glory and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed. 8 Though you have not seen him, you love him; and even though you do not see him now, you believe in him and are filled with an inexpressible and glorious joy, 9 for you are receiving the goal of your faith, the salvation of your souls.

If you keep reading 1 Peter you will see you need to do some choosing and obeying of God's commandments. It is not done for you by God. We are not puppets but have to do somethings for ourselves.

1PE 1:10 Concerning this salvation, the prophets, who spoke of the grace that was to come to you, searched intently and with the greatest care, 11 trying to find out the time and circumstances to which the Spirit of Christ in them was pointing when he predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow. 12 It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves but you, when they spoke of the things that have now been told you by those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven. Even angels long to look into these things.

1PE 1:13 Therefore, prepare your minds for action; be self-controlled; set your hope fully on the grace to be given you when Jesus Christ is revealed. 14 As obedient children, do not conform to the evil desires you had when you lived in ignorance. 15 But just as he who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do; 16 for it is written: "Be holy, because I am holy."

1PE 1:17 Since you call on a Father who judges each man's work impartially, live your lives as strangers here in reverent fear. 18 For you know that it was not with perishable things such as silver or gold that you were redeemed from the empty way of life handed down to you from your forefathers, 19 but with the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or defect. 20 He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake. 21 Through him you believe in God, who raised him from the dead and glorified him, and so your faith and hope are in God.

1PE 1:22 Now that you have purified yourselves by obeying the truth so that you have sincere love for your brothers, love one another deeply, from the heart. 23 For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God. 24 For,

"All men are like grass,
and all their glory is like the flowers of the field;
the grass withers and the flowers fall,

1PE 1:25 but the word of the Lord stands forever."

And this is the word that was preached to you.

1PE 2:1 Therefore, rid yourselves of all malice and all deceit, hypocrisy, envy, and slander of every kind. 2 Like newborn babies, crave pure spiritual milk, so that by it you may grow up in your salvation, 3 now that you have tasted that the Lord is good.

We are Saved by Christs blood, we cannot work to get our own salvation. We have choose ourselves to want to do God's will, to be obedient, turn from our past sinfuls lives, have faith & hope in God. We have to with our own will do these things, God doesn't force us and He doesn't take over our bodies or wills or minds to keep us from sinning or going astray. God helps us if we ask Him. We have the Holy Spirit but we are not possessed by the Holy Spirit against our wills being made to do things for God like puppets. The Holy Spirit convicts but we have to heed that conviction we are not forced to comply.

Because we have free will it is possible to reject what you have tasted or the Bible would not suggest it. Why bother saying "if you fall away"? Why give us a warning if it can't happen?

In the end you believe what you like. I choose to make an effort in my life to desire to follow the Lord and to remove that from my life God desires for me to do so. I can't do it all in my own strength but I know the Lord enables us to do so but first I have to be willing. That is my working on my faith. My salvation is being kept for me in heaven when I remain steadfast my faith.

 

[rojoloco]

Yeah I've heard that supposed explaination of these verses but it don't hold water if you ask me.

If we can't lose our salvation there would be little reason to make the effort to stop sinning.

The difference is that the person who did not make the effort would not be saved. He would not have the Spirit within him leading to a conflicted soul with each passing sin. Do you believe sanctification is the ongoing process which comes immediately upon salvation? If so, do you believe sanctification is God's word through you as He perfects you? If so, you do believe the Bible to be lying when it says whatever work God has started, He will see through to completion? If you believe Scripture to be telling the truth, it conflicts with your belief of losing salvation because a necessary result would be undoing and halting sanctification. However, if you believe that part of Scripture to be lying, it conflicts with everything else you believe about being a Christian. I am going to assume the latter is not your case based on your posts. However, the former still remains. If you believe it to be true, you are compelled to rethink your stance.

On the topic of salvation you don't actually have it now, you inherit it later. Salvation is the goal of one's faith. We have the Holy Spirit given to us as our guarantee until the day of salvation comes. It is kept in heaven for you by the Lord, so you can't keep it yourself.

Actually, glorification is the end reward. Salvation is already complete. I really like how John MacArthur puts the threefold state of salvation so I'll just quote him.

The New Testament implicitly reveals a threefold chronology for salvation. The past aspect of salvation is justification; it comes when one believes in Christ (Romans 10:9-10, 14-17) and is delivered from the penalty of sin. The present aspect of salvation is sanctification. Believers are continually being delivered from the power of sin (1 John 1:9). Ephesians 2:8 declares, "For by grace you have been saved." The Greek literally says, "you are having been saved." Salvation thus is a past occurrence with continuing results in the present. Third, salvation also has a future aspect, glorification (cf. Romans 13:11). Whenever a believer dies, God completely and finally delivers him from the presence of sin (cf. Hebrews 9:28) and instantly brings him into his eternal inheritance in His heavenly presence.

If you keep reading 1 Peter you will see you need to do some choosing and obeying of God's commandments. It is not done for you by God. We are not puppets but have to do somethings for ourselves.

Of course it is not done for us. We do freely choose God but that is only after the Spirit regenerates us and makes us capable of seeing the things of God (1 Corinthians 2:14). It is only after God gives us the gift of faith through His grace (Ephesians 2:8). We do choose God but it is because our new nature screams for Him and yearns for Him whereas our old nature rejected Him at every turn and could not even fathom being one of His. The doctrine called Compatibilism is worth reading up on. I also wrote a sermon on it if you are interested.

Because we have free will it is possible to reject what you have tasted or the Bible would not suggest it. Why bother saying "if you fall away"? Why give us a warning if it can't happen?

Again, to say that that person is a true believer goes against so much Scripture it would take me hours to post it all. You say it does not hold water but to say otherwise does not hold Scripture in one accord.

In the end you believe what you like. I choose to make an effort in my life to desire to follow the Lord and to remove that from my life God desires for me to do so. I can't do it all in my own strength but I know the Lord enables us to do so but first I have to be willing. That is my working on my faith. My salvation is being kept for me in heaven when I remain steadfast my faith.

So do you believe in a work based faith then? If so, do you also believe in a works based salvation? You said "That is my working on my faith." However, Scripture calls faith a gift from God. Scripture also says it is God who is perfecting His good work in you to completion. While we are indeed striving to live for God, that is only because the Spirit is preserving us and driving us toward Him. We still struggle but we can remain confident that we will persevere not because of our own power but because of the effective power of the Spirit and the promises of God.

 

[rojoloco]

I have a few questions for you to ponder over prayerfully if you are one who believes salvation is either:

a) something yet to be obtained
b) something that can be lost

1) Do you believe salvation is a finished (past tense) act as Ephesians 2:8 tells us?

2) Do you believe the blood of Christ is atoning? If yes, proceed to question 3. If no, proceed to question 6.

3) Do you believe the atonement was propitiatory a.k.a. paid the penalty of Romans 6:23 (death) in our stead?

4) Do you believe the atonement imputes the righteousness of Christ upon us?

5) Do you believe the atonement (through propitiation and imputation) justified (past tense) us?

6) Do you believe we have been redeemed by God through the blood of Christ?

7) Do you believe those who have been redeemed have been adopted as sons and daughters into the family of God?

8) Do you believe the sanctifying work of the Spirit within us is actually of the Spirit, of us on our own merit, or a combination of both?

9) Do you believe the Spirit regenerated you? If so, do you believe you have the power to resurrect your old self that has died (2 Corinthians 5:17)?

10) Do you believe God is at work within you during the process of sanctification? If yes, do you believe Philippians 1:6 to be true or a lie?

11) Are you more powerful than Almighty God? He has promised to perfect you, keep you, never lose you, and raise you up. Can you reverse His decrees and promises? Furthermore, if He has promised this, do you believe anything within you would ever desire otherwise so long as the Spirit was truly at work?

 

[april showers]

Matthew 13 (King James Version)


Matthew 13


<SUP id=en-KJV-23543 class=versenum>3</SUP>And he spake many things unto them in parables, saying, Behold, a sower went forth to sow;
<SUP id=en-KJV-23544 class=versenum>4</SUP>And when he sowed, some seeds fell by the way side, and the fowls came and devoured them up:
<SUP id=en-KJV-23545 class=versenum>5</SUP>Some fell upon stony places, where they had not much earth: and forthwith they sprung up, because they had no deepness of earth:
<SUP id=en-KJV-23546 class=versenum>6</SUP>And when the sun was up, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away.
<SUP id=en-KJV-23547 class=versenum>7</SUP>And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprung up, and choked them:
<SUP id=en-KJV-23548 class=versenum>8</SUP>But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold.
<SUP id=en-KJV-23549 class=versenum>9</SUP>Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
<SUP id=en-KJV-23550 class=versenum>.......</SUP>
<SUP id=en-KJV-23558 class=versenum>18</SUP>Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower.
<SUP id=en-KJV-23559 class=versenum>19</SUP>When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.
<SUP id=en-KJV-23560 class=versenum>20</SUP>But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;
<SUP id=en-KJV-23561 class=versenum>21</SUP>Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.
<SUP id=en-KJV-23562 class=versenum>22</SUP>He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful. <SUP id=en-KJV-23563 class=versenum>23</SUP>But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

From what I can see in this parable, the divine seed, like any other seed, will not survive if not taken care of properly, and will prosper when it is cultivated correctly. Not only that, if it is taken care of properly, it can attain to various levels of fruitfulness.

I've known people who have left the Lord. They are denying Him before men. What can God do but remain faithful to His word?

Matthew 10:33 (King James Version)

<SUP id=en-KJV-23451 class=versenum>33</SUP>But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

Therefore, a believer who turns his back on God will reap the Biblical results.

 

[Boanerges]

Matthew 13 3And he spake many things unto them in parables, saying, Behold, a sower went forth to sow; 4And when he sowed, some seeds fell by the way side, and the fowls came and devoured them up: 5Some fell upon stony places, where they had not much earth: and forthwith they sprung up, because they had no deepness of earth: 6And when the sun was up, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away. 7And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprung up, and choked them: 8But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold. 9Who hath ears to hear, let him hear. ....... 18Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower. 19When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side. 20But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it; 21Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended. 22He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful. 23But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

I just see it a little different. I see no problem with the seed but plenty with the soil.
All who really wanted God were fertile and life came forth. Those who seemed interested in the benefits (rice bowl Christians?) and those who loved the world were like those John spoke of by the Holy Spirit who " went out from us to manifest that they were never really of us.
So we look at it differently, it is okay to disagree. Our doctrines may diverge on some points but that is cool. Jesus will work all these little things out when He comes back revealing them when He returns.
Have a blessed day in His Name,
your brother Larry.

 

[RJ]

[/B]
The difference is that the person who did not make the effort would not be saved. He would not have the Spirit within him leading to a conflicted soul with each passing sin. Do you believe sanctification is the ongoing process which comes immediately upon salvation? If so, do you believe sanctification is God's word through you as He perfects you? If so, you do believe the Bible to be lying when it says whatever work God has started, He will see through to completion? If you believe Scripture to be telling the truth, it conflicts with your belief of losing salvation because a necessary result would be undoing and halting sanctification. However, if you believe that part of Scripture to be lying, it conflicts with everything else you believe about being a Christian. I am going to assume the latter is not your case based on your posts. However, the former still remains. If you believe it to be true, you are compelled to rethink your stance.



Actually, glorification is the end reward. Salvation is already complete. I really like how John MacArthur puts the threefold state of salvation so I'll just quote him.





Of course it is not done for us. We do freely choose God but that is only after the Spirit regenerates us and makes us capable of seeing the things of God (1 Corinthians 2:14). It is only after God gives us the gift of faith through His grace (Ephesians 2:8). We do choose God but it is because our new nature screams for Him and yearns for Him whereas our old nature rejected Him at every turn and could not even fathom being one of His. The doctrine called Compatibilism is worth reading up on. I also wrote a sermon on it if you are interested.



Again, to say that that person is a true believer goes against so much Scripture it would take me hours to post it all. You say it does not hold water but to say otherwise does not hold Scripture in one accord.



So do you believe in a work based faith then? If so, do you also believe in a works based salvation? You said "That is my working on my faith." However, Scripture calls faith a gift from God. Scripture also says it is God who is perfecting His good work in you to completion. While we are indeed striving to live for God, that is only because the Spirit is preserving us and driving us toward Him. We still struggle but we can remain confident that we will persevere not because of our own power but because of the effective power of the Spirit and the promises of God.

Rojo you said:
. It is only after God gives us the gift of faith through His grace (Ephesians 2:8).

I see know why we differ so much in your interpretation of Election. I see now that one of the reasons is that, in my humble opinion, you have God's free gift mixed up. You say that his gift is "our" faith that he gives us first. I say his gift is for everyone and this gift is the Gospel (the death,burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ) which is his Grace, and we receive this gift by our repentance and our faith (belief) in this Grace.

For it is by free grace (God's unmerited favor) that you are saved (delivered from judgment and made partakers of Christ's salvation) through [your] faith. And this [salvation] is not of yourselves [of your own doing, it came not through your own striving], but it is the gift of God;

 

[RJ]

The most frequent objections to the belief that a Christian cannot lose salvation are 1) What about those who are Christians and continually live an immoral lifestyle? 2) What about those who are Christians but later reject the faith and deny Christ? The problem with these two objections is the :clapping::clapping::clappinghrase “who are Christians.” The Bible declares that a true Christian will not live a continually immoral lifestyle (1 John 3:6). The Bible declares that anyone who departs the faith is demonstrating that he never truly was a Christian (1 John 2:19). Therefore, neither objection is valid. Christians do not continually live immoral lifestyles, nor do they reject the faith and deny Christ. Such actions are proof that they were never redeemed.

No, a Christian cannot lose salvation. Nothing can separate a Christian from God’s love (Romans 8:38-39). Nothing can remove a Christian from God’s hand (John 10:28-29). God is both willing and able to guarantee and maintain the salvation He has given us. Jude 24-25, “To Him who is able to keep you from falling and to present you before his glorious presence without fault and with great joy—to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.”

What about those who are Christians and continually live an immoral lifestyle? I agree, that would be living in an untruth, which could lead to bondage. A "Born Again" Christian would not willfully lead an immoral life, that would be a conundrum and, frankly, an impossibility for someone with Jesus living in them. Hebrews 6:4 ( which many take completely wrong) talks about a Christian that blatantly sins, is really no Christian at all and never was saved in the first place.

Judas was a good example of this. He proclaimed to be a follower of Jesus; he certainly witnessed and "tasted" the fruits of Jesus but he rejected him in the end because he never was a true believer.

Jesus told Nicodemus that you must be born of your natural parents and you must be born of the spirit to see the Kingdom of God. God said that he would never leave or forsake us and once you are born, there is no such thing as being unborn. The true believer can let his fleshy desires interfere with his connection to the Holy Spirit and pull back perhaps, but fall away, as in Hebrews 6, no way.

 

[MelodyC]

It is interesting the amount of total inability some people have to read through a post and reply to what has been said in the enitre post rather than pick a sentence and make up the rest.

I'm not pointing fingers at the poster just above or even befor that; this is a general observation statement from replies I have gotten here and in other threads.


NOW TO CLARIFY SOMETHING:-

Christ bought salvation for mankind through His BLOOD. Because as sinners we could not be the perfect sacrifice required to pay for our sins. Christ was the perfect Lamb.

Obedience to God as a Saved Believer has nothing to do with our Salvation. We start following God's commands and want to do good because we now belong to God and have been given a new Spirit. The Holy Spirit. We start living and acting as God desires us to live because we are no longer "slaves to sin".

If you don't know this then that is a shame.

If you don't believe this then that is your choice.

I really don't care you can agree or disagree but at least do yourself a favour and go back to God's Word and check it out for yourself.

If you read your Bible daily and asking God to reveal to you His Truth that is the only way to come to know what the Bible Truths are.

It is interesting to hear what people say here but go back and check it all out for yourselves. Be like the Bereans.

AC 17:10 As soon as it was night, the brothers sent Paul and Silas away to Berea. On arriving there, they went to the Jewish synagogue. 11 Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true. 12 Many of the Jews believed, as did also a number of prominent Greek women and many Greek men.