Original sin - Undermines God's nature

[KingJ]

Hi all, this thread is an offshoot of this one False teaching to discuss the matter of original sin.

Original Sin - undermines God's nature

Many teach that we are born sinners. Babies can go to hell.

This is one of the most heretical teachings from the pits of hell that exists. God is not a fool that would send children to hell.

There is no scripture that says we are born sinners destined for hell. The correct context of the few that many miss-quote, speaks to us being born in an environment of sin with the ability to sin. God put the devil in the garden. God did not force Adam to sin. God did not make Adam with sin. Fine line for Christians here. Very important for us to get it right and not misrepresent God.

When Jesus spoke on children, He said heaven belongs to them. We also know God spared all Hebrews under twenty in the wilderness. God is not a wicked fool that would send any children to hell. I feel God has chosen the millennium period as the time that children and mentally handicapped will be tested as scripture says the devil is released from the bottomless pit to tempt mankind for the last time Rev 20:3.

God is just and righteous. No just and righteous judge on this earth would send a baby to prison, yet some Christians teach this. We need to grasp the rebuke Paul gives Christians who judge matters worse then the unsaved in 1 Cor 6:1-7 and the following scriptures about God.

Isa 61:8 For I, the Lord, love justice.
Job 34:12 Surely, God will not act wickedly, And the Almighty will not pervert justice.
Deut 32:4 The Rock! His work is perfect, For all His ways are just; A God of faithfulness and without injustice, Righteous and upright is He.

 

[KingJ]

I agree with all of these except the original sin. Denial of original sin undermines the cross, as it implies there's no need for the cross to cleanse our sin. We've debated over this before.

@Jonathan_Gale Before we dive into scripture, please explain to me what you believe happens to little babies when they die.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

@Jonathan_Gale Before we dive into scripture, please explain to me what you believe happens to little babies when they die.

There's nothign more to discuss, if you don't believe in original sin. It's not about God's nature, it's about OUR nature. Even though WE have sinned, God loved us and gave his only son for us. Babies are irrelevant to this discussion, that's just a distraction. When they die, same rule from Gen. 3:19 applies - "for dust you are, to dust you shall return".

 

[KingJ]

There's nothign more to discuss, if you don't believe in original sin. It's not about God's nature, it's about OUR nature. Even though WE have sinned, God loved us and gave his only son for us. Babies are irrelevant to this discussion, that's just a distraction. When they die, same rule from Gen. 3:19 applies - "for dust you are, to dust you shall return".

You believe babies will cease to exist?

 

[KingJ]

There's nothign more to discuss, if you don't believe in original sin. It's not about God's nature, it's about OUR nature. Even though WE have sinned, God loved us and gave his only son for us. Babies are irrelevant to this discussion, that's just a distraction. When they die, same rule from Gen. 3:19 applies - "for dust you are, to dust you shall return".

Babies are very relevant to the discussion. If they have sin they cannot go to be with God. Nobody on the face of the planet would serve a God that sends babies to hell.

Christians need to understand this and not misrepresent scripture and God. God is righteous in all His ways Psalm 145:17.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

Babies are very relevant to the discussion. If they have sin they cannot go to be with God. Nobody on the face of the planet would serve a God that sends babies to hell.

Christians need to understand this and not misrepresent scripture and God. God is righteous in all His ways Psalm 145:17.

When did I say "babies go to hell"? Christians need to understand that nobody goes to either heaven to hell, we go to the GRAVE when we die, babies included.

You believe babies will cease to exist?

No. "Cease to exist" is against the first law of thermodynamics, DUST to DUST is consistent with it. I don't make up stuffs or bring in any distractions, I just told you what Gen. 3:19 states.

 

[KingJ]

When did I say "babies go to hell"? Christians need to understand that nobody goes to either heaven to hell, we go to the GRAVE when we die, babies included.

No. "Cease to exist" is against the first law of thermodynamics, DUST to DUST is consistent with it. I don't make up stuffs or bring in any distractions, I just told you what Gen. 3:19 states.

I must be slow, but I am truly battling to understand what you are saying. Please could you simplify it for me.

Going to the grave is not ceasing to exist?

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

I must be slow, but I am truly battling to understand what you are saying. Please could you simplify it for me.

Going to the grave is not ceasing to exist?

No, the body becomes worm and bug food. That's surely not ceasing to exist. Again, Gen. 3:19. If you keep ignoring that and playing dumb, fine. When Yeshua died on the cross, "he breathed his last" and "he yielded his spirit". Body went down to the grave, spirit returned to God - "Father. 'into Your hands I commit my spirit," Luke 23:46. "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, that which is born of the spirit is spirit", John 3:6. When a person dies, both the body and the spirit go to where each came from, nothing "ceases to exist".

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

Look, I'm not trying to argue with you on some doctrines or to cause confusion, we're all of the same Body of Christ, and we are in agreement on most issues, I'm simply showing you the BIBLICAL definition of life, death and resurrection - by the design of a RIGHTEOUS God:

"And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became of living being," Gen. 2:7, 1 Cor. 15:45;

"In the sweat of your face you shall eat bread till you return to the ground; for out of it you were taken; for dust you are, and to dust you shall return," Gen. 3:19;

"That which is born of the flesh is flesh, that which is born of the spirit is spirit", John 3:6;

"Behold, I tell you a mystery: we shall not all sleep ... the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall all be changed." 1 Cor. 15:51-52

"I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore." Rev. 1:18

Contrary to popular belief, neither heaven nor hell -nor annaihilation - is mentioned in any of these verses.

 

[StewardoftheMystery]

So the question is this "is man first born with a "sin nature" or not? As I would like to take the time to comment on this issue according to scripture.
I absolutely believe man is born with a nature to sin. This sin nature was introduced into the world through Adams' sin; and by the "spirit" of he who is "in" the world also dwells in the "firstborn nature" of man, which is "flesh". Jesus said that which born of fleshis flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

The word "flesh" in that verse denotes a beast like, earthly sin nature, that is separated from divine influence, and is therefore prone to sin and opposed to God.

That is the "enmity" God spoke of in the beginning between the serpents seedand the woman's seed. God also said in Genesis 6:3 that His Spirit shall not always "strive" with man, for that he also is "flesh".

Again, this shows the "enmity" between man's "first nature" which is "flesh" and God's Holy Spirit.

We are told in Romans 5:12 “Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:”

This is what I believe Paul was also showing here in the "law of sin and death" in Romans 8:2 “For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from "the law of sin and death".
Paul is not talking about God's holy law here, but a "natural law" that we are all firstborn "under." Like the law of gravity, we are all first born under "this law of sin".

Paul also said in Romans 5:19 “For as by one man's disobedience many were "made sinners", so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.”

And we are not made righteous until we are "born again" from above by God's Holy Spirit of promise, and are then "made free" from this first "sin nature".

There are 2 seeds, one corruptible the other incorruptible (1 Peter 1:23) just as there are "2 natures". The first is "earthy"and of the "flesh" and is also "carnally minded" which is "of" the "spirit" of this world, and is found "in" the first Adam after iniquity was found "in" man (Adam).

The second seed is of the "Holy Spirit", and is of God, sent forth in "the seed" of Promise; even in our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ from heaven. We are told in 1 Corinthians 15:46 that which is "first is natural", and afterward (after being born again of the Spirit) that which is "spiritual." So we are not first born "holy", we are firstborn "sinners".

Here is an example of the first "nature" in Ephesians 2:3 “Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the "lusts of our flesh", fulfilling the "desires of the flesh" and of "the mind"; and were "by nature" the children of wrath, even as others.”

So we are first "natural born sinners".

Now some believe there is an age of accountability for children, but I believe the scriptures also prove this idea false. In Psalm 51:5 “Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.”

And also here in Psalm 58:3 “The wicked are "estranged from the womb": they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.”

Also the Lord said in Genesis 8:21… for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; ….”

So that is some sound scriptural proof to confirm this point. But think about this; if man did not first have a "sin nature" from first being born of the "flesh" and also "carnally minded"; then why would man have to be “born again” and made a “new man” in Christ by way of the Holy Spirit?

The old man of sin must die, we must put to death the deeds of the flesh, and the body of sin must also be destroyed in us. And when this happens by the power of God in Jesus Christ, we then are also raised up a "new man" in Him and given a "new nature" and "new mind" by the Spirit of the Living God.

We are then made new creatures in Christ, the old things pass away, and behold, all things become new.

Our hearts must be changed, the spirit of our minds must be renewed in Jesus Christ Ephesians 4:23 “And be renewed in "the spirit of your mind;"

You must be born again! Peace and God bless

 

[KingJ]

There's nothign more to discuss, if you don't believe in original sin. It's not about God's nature, it's about OUR nature. Even though WE have sinned, God loved us and gave his only son for us.

We are all sinners who need a Savior because we are all active in sin. Not because we were born with sin. Jesus makes it clear that a thought can be a sin in Matt 5:28.

 

[StewardoftheMystery]

Not because we were born with sin.

Our first man is born of the “flesh” this speaks to the “sin nature” we are all firstborn under. All the scriptures I posted above agree and confirm this Truth.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

We are all sinners who need a Savior because we are all active in sin. Not because we were born with sin. Jesus makes it clear that a thought can be a sin in Matt 5:28.

Why are we "active in sin" if we were not born in sin? Where did it come from, if not from the Fall in the garden? "Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and IN SIN my mother conceived me," Psalm 51:5.

 

[KingJ]

Why are we "active in sin" if we were not born in sin? Where did it come from, if not from the Fall in the garden? "Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and IN SIN my mother conceived me," Psalm 51:5.

Brought forth in iniquity. Not born as iniquity. A clean baby in a muddy pool verse a muddy baby in a clean pool.

In sin my mother conceived me. Not, my mother conceived sinful me. All adults sin. The world in which we are born is full of sin. John is crystal clear on that in 1 John 1:8 and Jesus in Matt 5:28.

 

[KingJ]

No, the body becomes worm and bug food. That's surely not ceasing to exist. Again, Gen. 3:19. If you keep ignoring that and playing dumb, fine. When Yeshua died on the cross, "he breathed his last" and "he yielded his spirit". Body went down to the grave, spirit returned to God - "Father. 'into Your hands I commit my spirit," Luke 23:46. "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, that which is born of the spirit is spirit", John 3:6. When a person dies, both the body and the spirit go to where each came from, nothing "ceases to exist".

A human is a creation which consists of a body, mind and spirit. Into His hands I commit my spirit = my spirit goes to be with God in heaven. It is not an amalgamation in some crazy fantasy union with the spirit of God. We are a creation. A separate being to God. It seems we need a discussion on what a human is before we can discuss original sin.

 

[KingJ]

Why are we "active in sin" if we were not born in sin? Where did it come from, if not from the Fall in the garden? "Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and IN SIN my mother conceived me," Psalm 51:5.

All adults fall into sin. We are in a weak flesh. God gave us the weak flesh and placed the devil on earth with us to tempt us. Us sinning was and is always an inevitability. We are not a god. The inevitability of sin is a separate matter to being born sinful. The underlying reason is, babies. Babies are innocent and anyone who punishes babies for sins is a wicked mental case.

You say babies is a red herring. Babies is 'the' issue with original sin. The message we espouse to the lost or anyone with a working brain is that God is a wicked mental case that would punish babies for sin.

There are actually Christians that have been on this site that believe God will send babies to hell. At least you don't believe this. This is why we need to be very careful to not get this topic wrong. It is so easy to grossly misrepresent God on it.

 

[KingJ]

Our first man is born of the “flesh” this speaks to the “sin nature” we are all firstborn under. All the scriptures I posted above agree and confirm this Truth.

I will respond to your post soon. No, this is not what the scripture you posted teaches. You are reading scripture with a preconception.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

Brought forth in iniquity. Not born as iniquity. A clean baby in a muddy pool verse a muddy baby in a clean pool.

In sin my mother conceived me. Not, my mother conceived sinful me. All adults sin. The world in which we are born is full of sin. John is crystal clear on that in 1 John 1:8 and Jesus in Matt 5:28.

What "world" are you talking about? Mother nature does not sin, mountains and seas do not sin, animals do not sin, they all function exactly as God designed. Only mankind sin, which is conceived in desire, and when it's fully grown, mortal life is over, according to James 1:15. That desire originated from nowhere else but Gen. 3:6 -

"So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree desirable to make one wise, she she took of its fruit and ate. She also gave to her husband with her, and he ate."

And that sin did NOT disappear with Adam and Eve, because Romans 5:12 plainly states that sin spread to all mankind. That's not "a clean baby in a muddy pool", that's a seed planted in mud, you don't see it for a while until it sprouts, but it's there and growing.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

A human is a creation which consists of a body, mind and spirit. Into His hands I commit my spirit = my spirit goes to be with God in heaven. It is not an amalgamation in some crazy fantasy union with the spirit of God. We are a creation. A separate being to God. It seems we need a discussion on what a human is before we can discuss original sin.

A human is a LIVING BEING - as the outcome of God breathing life into a body of dust, which means organic, earthly matter. That's the definition of life. It doesn't need a separate discussion, it needs you to read Gen. 2:7 and accept that biblical definition of life. Original sin leads to death - when it's fully grown. Without sin, mankind wouldn't have been barred from the Tree of Life. Yeshua died even though he himself had no sin, but he took the sin of all mankind, therefore, OUR sin nailed him on the cross.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

All adults fall into sin. We are in a weak flesh. God gave us the weak flesh and placed the devil on earth with us to tempt us. Us sinning was and is always an inevitability. We are not a god. The inevitability of sin is a separate matter to being born sinful. The underlying reason is, babies. Babies are innocent and anyone who punishes babies for sins is a wicked mental case.

You say babies is a red herring. Babies is 'the' issue with original sin. The message we espouse to the lost or anyone with a working brain is that God is a wicked mental case that would punish babies for sin.

There are actually Christians that have been on this site that believe God will send babies to hell. At least you don't believe this. This is why we need to be very careful to not get this topic wrong. It is so easy to grossly misrepresent God on it.

Again, nobody goes to hell or heaven, all to the grave. If a baby dies, that's a tragedy, but grave is still the destination. Whether a baby sins or not, your answer is in John 9:3-5, we've had long debate over that, I don't wanna repeat it. I can't persuade you, neither do I intend to, I simply present you what the Scripture says - instead of my own opinion or doctrine, you draw your own conclusion.

No Heaven or Hell, Only Sheʾol - TheTorah.com

Sheʾol and its synonyms, בּוֹר “pit,” שַׁחַת “chasm,” and אֲבַדּוֹן “oblivion,” was the fate of all people upon death. The wicked were sent there early, while the righteous were rewarded with a long life. During the Second Temple period, the negative attitude about death and sheʾol develops into...

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