OSAS

[lentz]

I know there is a thread on this subject but can’t find it.
I don’t intend to dwell on it, but when Peter talked about the dog returning to it vomit and the sowell wallowing in her more, it would indicate those people were never saved to begin with.

John said those that went out was not of them,if they were of them they would never have gone out from among them.
I’m on the fence still on this one.

 

[Charlie24]

I know there is a thread on this subject but can’t find it.
I don’t intend to dwell on it, but when Peter talked about the dog returning to it vomit and the sowell wallowing in her more, it would indicate those people were never saved to begin with.

John said those that went out was not of them,if they were of them they would never have gone out from among them.
I’m on the fence still on this one.

OSAS originated with Calvin. According to him, man has no free will to choose God, so if God chooses you, then you can't lose your salvation.

Needless to say, I totally disagree with him. There are far to many verses of Scripture that show us we can choose God and then turn from that choice.

As the Scripture says, "no man can pluck them out of my hand" BUT, man can choose to pluck himself out of His hand.

 

[lentz]

OSAS originated with Calvin. According to him, man has no free will to choose God, so if God chooses you, then you can't lose your salvation.

Needless to say, I totally disagree with him. There are far to many verses of Scripture that show us we can choose God and then turn from that choice.

As the Scripture says, "no man can pluck them out of my hand" BUT, man can choose to pluck himself out of His hand.

I agree with you on that. Like looking back and taking your hand off the Plough.
However, the sowell “cleaned herself “,not Christ doing the cleansing

 

[Charlie24]

I agree with you on that. Like looking back and taking your hand off the Plough.
However, the sowell “cleaned herself “,not Christ doing the cleansing

I attend a Church that believes in OSAS but I don't argue, they have a heart for the lost and preach the truth from the pulpit.

But then again, there are millions who believe they are saved, and no matter what they do or believe from that point, they can't lose that salvation.

That is not what the Scripture teaches by a long shot!

 

[lentz]

I attend a Church that believes in OSAS but I don't argue, they have a heart for the lost and preach the truth from the pulpit.

But then again, there are millions who believe they are saved, and no matter what they do or believe from that point, they can't lose that salvation.

That is not what the Scripture teaches by a long shot!

I totally agree.
Even Paul said God forbid to sinning so that grace may abound.
IF,OSAS was true,one still could not sin Willy nilly. It would have to mean they were never saved to begin with. As I said I am only looking into the idea.
If one is truly saved and sin,he has an advocate with the Father. So he would ask forgiveness,therefore in that respect OSAs is correct

 

[Charlie24]

I totally agree.
Even Paul said God forbid to sinning so that grace may abound.
IF,OSAS was true,one still could not sin Willy nilly. It would have to mean they were never saved to begin with. As I said I am only looking into the idea

You're going to find a split over this anywhere you go.

I don't argue it the way I did years ago, I just present the Scripture and let it go.

When someone is convinced of something there is no Scripture that will open their eyes, unless God does the opening.

If you're going to discuss this, it would be an advantage for the thread to define the difference between the state of being backslidden but still having faith VS the loss of faith altogether.

 

[lentz]

You're going to find a split over this anywhere you go.

I don't argue it the way I did years ago, I just present the Scripture and let it go.

When someone is convinced of something there is no Scripture that will open their eyes, unless God does the opening.

If you're going to discuss this, it would be an advantage for the thread to define the difference between the state of being backslidden but still having faith VS the loss of faith altogether.

A lot of people grieve over that.
They think when backslidden, they have committed the unpardonable sin and Hebrews 6 worries them silly.
Least ways it happened to me years ago. Took years 30 or 40 years to get out of the guilt.

 

[Charlie24]

A lot of people grieve over that.
They think when backslidden, they have committed the unpardonable sin and Hebrews 6 worries them silly.
Least ways it happened to me years ago. Took years 30 or 40 years to get out of the guilt.

Here is one of the strongest refutes of osas I've found in Scripture, there are many more similar to it.

Ezekiel 33:13

"When I shall say to the righteous, that he shall surely live; if he trust to his own righteousness, and commit iniquity, all his righteousnesses shall not be remembered; but for his iniquity that he hath committed, he shall die for it."

Did you catch that, "if he trust to his own righteousness?"

This is a person who was saved, righteous before God, but he lost faith and began to trust in his own righteousness, and lost his soul.

That is the key to the believers life, he must continue in faith.

 

[Curtis]

Jud 1:24 Now all glory to God, who is able to keep you from falling away and will bring you with great joy into his glorious presence without a single fault. (NLT)

2Ti 2:13 If we are faithless, He remains faithful; He cannot deny Himself.

 

[lentz]

I know there is a thread on this subject but can’t find it.
I don’t intend to dwell on it, but when Peter talked about the dog returning to it vomit and the sowell wallowing in her more, it would indicate those people were never saved to begin with.

John said those that went out was not of them,if they were of them they would never have gone out from among them.
I’m on the fence still on this one.

Well I’m off the fence.
I do not believe that the OSAs doctrine holds up.
I gave a lot of good teachers a chance to sway me,but the Spirit says no.

 

[Curtis]

Well I’m off the fence.
I do not believe that the OSAs doctrine holds up.
I gave a lot of good teachers a chance to sway me,but the Spirit says no.

Have you ever heard of Jesus going after one of his lost sheep who has wandered off into the weeds, and did not bring them back?

When you buy something it belongs to you, and no one else. When Jesus purchased his Church with his blood that person or people belonged to him. They no longer belong to themselves.

1Co 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
1Co 6:20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

What happens if a sheep(s) wanders off from its shepherd? What Does God do with those who belong to him who have wondered off?

Heb 12:6 FOR WHOM THE LORD LOVES HE CHASTENS, AND SCOURGES EVERY SON WHOM HE RECEIVES."
Heb 12:7 If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom a father does not chasten?
Heb 12:8 But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons.

God corrects and chastens all of his sons who get off track from the right path. There is no such a thing as a son who is never corrected.
There are those who look like sheep and pretend to be one, but when they wander off what does God do to them? Nothing, because they do not belong to him!

Heb 12:8 But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons.

The chastening, and correction of the Lord is NOT joyous but grievous, and painful. afterward it yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it.

Heb 12:11 Now no chastening seems to be joyful for the present, but painful; nevertheless, afterward it yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it.

 

[Beetow]

~
I would like to see more discussions relative to OAAA . . . . Once Adopted Always
Adopted.

● Eph 1:4-5 . . He predestined us to be adopted as His sons through Jesus Christ,
in accordance with His pleasure and will

There are important differences between adopted kids and foster kids.

The latter have no inheritance rights, they have no right to be known by a foster
father's name, they have no right to a foster father's love, they have no right to
address their foster father with a filial vocative like dad, pop, or papa; and they
have no right to a place in his genealogy.

Plus, foster care is temporary. Older kids eventually age out of the foster system
and the State ceases to assist foster fathers to continue providing for them. At 18
the older kids are legally adults in my country, and the responsibility for their
providence is upon themselves. Ouch!

Adopted kids' circumstances are so, so much better. They are legally just as much
an adopted father's children as his biological offspring. Ergo: adopted kids have
inheritance rights, they have a right to be known by their adopted father's name,
they have a right to their adopted father's love, they have a right to address their
adopted father by a filial vocative, and they have a right to a place in his
genealogy.

Plus, adoption is permanent. Older kids don't age out of their adopted homes so
they always have a family support base to fall back on should their circumstances
become difficult. (cf. Luke 15:11-24)

Not every Christian is related to God as His kin by adoption. But those in that
envious position aren't left to guess at whether they are or not.

● Rom 8:15-16 . . For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear
again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out:
"Abba! Father! The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children
of God.

Abba is neither English nor Greek; it's Aramaic. The word means father, but not
as an ordinary noun. Grammatically, it's a filial vocative; for example:

When my son points me out to one of his friends at the mall and says: "That's my
dad over there" then his use of "dad" simply indicates how he and I are related.
But when he shouts: "Hey dad, I'm over here!" then his use of "dad" is a filial
vocative because he's addressing me personally to get my attention-- same noun;
different sense.

NOTE: A tragic case useful for illustration is Mother Teresa. Virtually her entire five
decades as a missionary, Teresa felt not the slightest glimmer of The Lord's
presence. I'm talking about 50 years. Her feelings of abandonment were so strong
that Teresa eventually began doubting there's actually a God out there, and if there
is one, she wasn't sure He liked her and might even be disposed to quite condemn
her. That poor soul went to her death without any assurance she would be safe on
the other side.

Point being: Teresa was deprived the spirit of adoption per Rom 8:15-16. That
being so, then I must assume Teresa left this life on her own instead of in God's
care.

* I honestly don't know how the RCC could possibly dare to canonize Teresa when
it's readily seen by a number of her private letters that their poster child was mostly
agnostic instead of believer.
_

 

[KingJ]

I know there is a thread on this subject but can’t find it.
I don’t intend to dwell on it, but when Peter talked about the dog returning to it vomit and the sowell wallowing in her more, it would indicate those people were never saved to begin with.

John said those that went out was not of them,if they were of them they would never have gone out from among them.
I’m on the fence still on this one.

Jump off the fence .

OSAS is true from God's perspective. He is not a fool that grafts a demon into heaven or sends a repentant sinner to hell.

We however, are mostly fools. We can think we are saved because we attend church services and belong to the correct religion. Because we pay our taxes and tithes and are not as bad as other people.

 

[KingJ]

OSAS originated with Calvin. According to him, man has no free will to choose God, so if God chooses you, then you can't lose your salvation.

Yes and no.

I will put a million dollars on the fact that the premise on which OSAS is based has been argued since John 10:27-29 was penned.

My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.

It is like crediting 'BLM / black lives matter' as being the first black lives matter movement.

Needless to say, I totally disagree with him. There are far to many verses of Scripture that show us we can choose God and then turn from that choice.

Paul always warned the people in attendance at a meeting to judge themselves / ensure they are saved 2 Cor 13:5, Phil 2:12. Making bold statements as seen in Rom 6:9-12 ''sinners will not be in heaven'. A Christian is not a sinner in the context referred to. IE One who continues in sin unrepentant.

Paul identifies a sinner in a mortal sin of incest in 1 Cor 5. He says that this is a brethren 'so called'. IE, Not a real Christian.

Why does Paul not say he is a brother / sister who has fallen into sin?

1 Cor 5:11 But now I am writing to you that you must not associate with anyone who claims to be a brother or sister.

As the Scripture says, "no man can pluck them out of my hand" BUT, man can choose to pluck himself out of His hand.

If this were true, satan could jump back into heaven.

God is not a fool that grafts a demon into heaven or casts a saint out.

------------------------------------------

I think 5 point Calvinism is an evil belief. It suggests God is partial and cherry picks people for heaven.

But this does not mean OSAS is a false belief. Teaching a non-OSAS doctrine is actually evil and an extreme error.

Simple example:

- Christian A serves God by witnessing to prostitutes for 40 years, in year 41 he falls into mortal sin and .....God sends him to an ''ETERNAL'' lake of fire.
- Christian B does not really serve God, but repents and talks to Jesus on the cross for 4 hours.....God sends him off to eternal bliss.

This would make God guilty of perverting justice.

Job 34:12 makes it clear that God does not pervert justice.

Question for non-OSAS believers

OSAS = Once saved always saved A non-OSAS belief implies God is a wicked fool who perverts justice. Question - Please explain to me how this is not the case with a non-OSAS belief. Please do not copy past volumes and volumes of scriptures that seem to support non-OSAS. This thread is asking...

www.talkjesus.com

 

[B-A-C]

My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.

But of course, He Himself will cast some out. No need for someone to take them from him.

Also, He will have His angels remove some people "out of the kingdom".

 

[KingJ]

But of course, He Himself will cast some out. No need for someone to take them from him.

Also, He will have His angels remove some people "out of the kingdom".

BAC, with all due respect, you come off as a troll in a debate and or discussion on the topics of eternal punishment and OSAS.

The multiple encounters we have had, have ended with you leaving the chat or going in a rather insane circle when presented with facts.

I pray you grasp that you fail 100% on logic / common sense and try address that first, before you cherry pick scriptures. Like the example given above, which you have seen before and not properly dealt with and once more purposely ignored. IE God does not pervert justice, non-OSAS is a perversion of justice as my simple example shows. Explain how you believe it is not and paint God to the lost as a just God with your belief that suggests otherwise to every person on this planet that has a working brain.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

I know there is a thread on this subject but can’t find it.
I don’t intend to dwell on it, but when Peter talked about the dog returning to it vomit and the sowell wallowing in her more, it would indicate those people were never saved to begin with.

John said those that went out was not of them,if they were of them they would never have gone out from among them.
I’m on the fence still on this one.

Since I was initially born again back in '63 because of Southern Baptist outreach, and initially taught their theological views, I held OSAS for some years afterwards. Baptists, for the most part DON'T claim to be Calvinists, and really only ascribe to "T", "U", and "P" theologies. about 15 years after being Born Again I got a book by a Baptist Theologian: Robert Shank called "Life in the Son" which was the result of him being commissioned to produce a Scholarly Work proving the validity of OSAS as a legitimate doctrine. However, in the process of writing the book, he found that he had to go the OTHER WAY, and wrote his book DISPROVING the OSAS theology (which didn't sit well with his denomination). Consequently, I changed my personal views about "Security", and tend to agree with Shank that our "Security" rests in whether we maintain our "Living relationship" with Father, and don't "Drift away" and neglect our salvation in favor of more interesting things. The existence of FAITH depends on a living relationship with God, if we neglect that relationship, Living FAITH degenerates into the fading memory of having HAD a living relationship, FOrtunately, however God sends WAKE UP CALLS to get our attention. I think that's why my first heart attack came along when it did -

The Assemblies of God denomination USED TO BE a "one strike and you're OUT" holiness fixated denomination, but since MANY Charismatics went into the AG after the Charismatic outpouring ended, they're not as legalistic these days.

 

[Charlie24]

Yes and no.

I will put a million dollars on the fact that the premise on which OSAS is based has been argued since John 10:27-29 was penned.

My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.

It is like crediting 'BLM / black lives matter' as being the first black lives matter movement.



Paul always warned the people in attendance at a meeting to judge themselves / ensure they are saved 2 Cor 13:5, Phil 2:12. Making bold statements as seen in Rom 6:9-12 ''sinners will not be in heaven'. A Christian is not a sinner in the context referred to. IE One who continues in sin unrepentant.

Paul identifies a sinner in a mortal sin of incest in 1 Cor 5. He says that this is a brethren 'so called'. IE, Not a real Christian.

Why does Paul not say he is a brother / sister who has fallen into sin?

1 Cor 5:11 But now I am writing to you that you must not associate with anyone who claims to be a brother or sister.



If this were true, satan could jump back into heaven.

God is not a fool that grafts a demon into heaven or casts a saint out.

------------------------------------------

I think 5 point Calvinism is an evil belief. It suggests God is partial and cherry picks people for heaven.

But this does not mean OSAS is a false belief. Teaching a non-OSAS doctrine is actually evil and an extreme error.

Simple example:

- Christian A serves God by witnessing to prostitutes for 40 years, in year 41 he falls into mortal sin and .....God sends him to an ''ETERNAL'' lake of fire.
- Christian B does not really serve God, but repents and talks to Jesus on the cross for 4 hours.....God sends him off to eternal bliss.

This would make God guilty of perverting justice.

Job 34:12 makes it clear that God does not pervert justice.

Question for non-OSAS believers

OSAS = Once saved always saved A non-OSAS belief implies God is a wicked fool who perverts justice. Question - Please explain to me how this is not the case with a non-OSAS belief. Please do not copy past volumes and volumes of scriptures that seem to support non-OSAS. This thread is asking...

www.talkjesus.com

We all have the choice to believe, but all who believe will not finish the race with that belief.

Along the way some will choose to no longer believe for whatever reasons.

I believe in eternal security, but if you leave this world having lost that faith, you're not going to make it.

 

[KingJ]

@Charlie24 I don't want to argue with you . I will try be very civil.

We all have the choice to believe, but all who believe will not finish the race with that belief.

A Christian is not one who merely ''believes'' in religion X over religion Y. Jesus being real over Jesus not being real.

Not properly understanding what a Christian is is the first and most common error of a non-OSAS believer.

Please read this What is a Christian and how do you become one?.

Along the way some will choose to no longer believe for whatever reasons.

Another statement not properly grasping what a Christian is. When you grasp the post I linked above, you should understand that to become a Christian requires a depth of intent on par with martyrdom. It is not like you can ever expect the recipient for whom you layed your life down for to say ''Que Sera, Sera, our love has run out, good bye, see you later'.

You and I will always trust and know God loves us because He died for us. When we are grafted into His family, it is only because we sunk to a similar / same / minumun depth of intent. We may at times in the future not want to talk to Him or sing praises to Him. This does not in anyway shape or form result in us going to eternal punishment in a lake of fire.

Would you ever disown Jesus? If not, why? Lets say you stopped '''''believing''''''. Jesus knocks at your door and asks for bread and a place to sleep, would you let Him? Jesus '''died'' on the cross for you. You will always welcome him in, unless you are senile. The same is true in the opposite direction.

I believe in eternal security, but if you leave this world having lost that faith, you're not going to make it.

It is not faith that saves you. Faith is given to those that repent. It is something a saved person has. You have the cart before the horse.

 

[Charlie24]

@Charlie24 I don't want to argue with you . I will try be very civil.



A Christian is not one who merely ''believes'' in religion X over religion Y. Jesus being real over Jesus not being real.

Not properly understanding what a Christian is is the first and most common error of a non-OSAS believer.

Please read this What is a Christian and how do you become one?.



Another statement not properly grasping what a Christian is. When you grasp the post I linked above, you should understand that to become a Christian requires a depth of intent on par with martyrdom. It is not like you can ever expect the recipient for whom you layed your life down for to say ''Que Sera, Sera, our love has run out, good bye, see you later'.

You and I will always trust and know God loves us because He died for us. When we are grafted into His family, it is only because we sunk to a similar / same / minumun depth of intent. We may at times in the future not want to talk to Him or sing praises to Him. This does not in anyway shape or form result in us going to eternal punishment in a lake of fire.

Would you ever disown Jesus? If not, why? Lets say you stopped '''''believing''''''. Jesus knocks at your door and asks for bread and a place to sleep, would you let Him? Jesus '''died'' on the cross for you. You will always welcome him in, unless you are senile. The same is true in the opposite direction.



It is not faith that saves you. Faith is given to those that repent. It is something a saved person has.

The bottom line, if you don't have faith in the finished work of Christ to the end, what He did for us at Calvary and His resurrection, you're not going to make it.

Heb. 3:14

"For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;"