OSAS

[Charlie24]

The bottom line, if you don't have faith in the finished work of Christ to the end, what He did for us at Calvary and His resurrection, you're not going to make it.

Heb. 3:14

"For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;"

We only have a down payment on our salvation, (the indwelling Holy Spirit), until the resurrection.

Then we are totally bought and paid for by Christ. That is if we hold that faith to the end.

Eph. 1:12-14

"That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory."

 

[lentz]

@Charlie24 I don't want to argue with you . I will try be very civil.



A Christian is not one who merely ''believes'' in religion X over religion Y. Jesus being real over Jesus not being real.

Not properly understanding what a Christian is is the first and most common error of a non-OSAS believer.

Please read this What is a Christian and how do you become one?.



Another statement not properly grasping what a Christian is. When you grasp the post I linked above, you should understand that to become a Christian requires a depth of intent on par with martyrdom. It is not like you can ever expect the recipient for whom you layed your life down for to say ''Que Sera, Sera, our love has run out, good bye, see you later'.

You and I will always trust and know God loves us because He died for us. When we are grafted into His family, it is only because we sunk to a similar / same / minumun depth of intent. We may at times in the future not want to talk to Him or sing praises to Him. This does not in anyway shape or form result in us going to eternal punishment in a lake of fire.

Would you ever disown Jesus? If not, why? Lets say you stopped '''''believing''''''. Jesus knocks at your door and asks for bread and a place to sleep, would you let Him? Jesus '''died'' on the cross for you. You will always welcome him in, unless you are senile. The same is true in the opposite direction.



It is not faith that saves you. Faith is given to those that repent. It is something a saved person has. You have the cart before the horse

You cannot be saved without faith,for it is through faith you are saved

 

[KingJ]

The bottom line, if you don't have faith in the finished work of Christ to the end, what He did for us at Calvary and His resurrection, you're not going to make it.

Heb. 3:14

"For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;"

It is impossible for a human to believe a man who walked the earth 2000 years ago and died on the cross is God of the universe.

So, disagree. Faith to believe Jesus is Lord is directly given by the Holy Spirit. 1 Cor 12:3 is crystal clear on this.

1 Cor 12:3 Therefore I want you to know that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus be cursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.

Please grasp the ''no one'' and the ''except by''. If you teach otherwise, you are adding to scripture what is not there. False teaching.

It is on par with teaching that an adulterous wife is a saint if she has faith in unicorns.

 

[KingJ]

You cannot be saved without faith,for it is through faith you are saved

What faith are you referring to? Your ability to believe a God exists? Your ability to believe Jesus is His Son? You have the ability to believe a man who walked the earth 2000 years ago is God of the universe?

We do not have the ability to believe this. So, please explain to me ''what faith saves us?''.

Is an adulterous wife a saint if she has ''''faith''' in unicorns?

Yourself and Charlie, have the cart before the horse.

Matt 7:22 mentions people having faith in God to cast out demons, heal the sick and prophecy. These great men and woman '''of faith''' according to Matt 7:22 are 100% en route to eternal damnation.

 

[Charlie24]

It is impossible for a human to believe a man who walked the earth 2000 years ago and died on the cross is God of the universe.

So, disagree. Faith to believe Jesus is Lord is directly given by the Holy Spirit. 1 Cor 12:3 is crystal clear on this.

1 Cor 12:3 Therefore I want you to know that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus be cursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.

Please grasp the ''no one'' and the ''except by''. If you teach otherwise, you are adding to scripture what is not there. False teaching.

It is on par with teaching that an adulterous wife is a saint if she has faith in unicorns.

Yes, the only way for man to know Christ died on that Cross is for the Holy Spirit to reveal that man is a sinner in need of a Saviour.

The only way the Holy Spirit can do that is by man hearing the Gospel. He provides the faith to believe but we must respond to that Gospel in a positive manner to benefit from it.

God does not pick and choose who will be saved, man makes that choice. Although through His foreknowledge He already knows who will accept and who will reject.

 

[KingJ]

Yes, the only way for man to know Christ died on that Cross is for the Holy Spirit to reveal that man is a sinner in need of a Saviour.

The Holy Spirit does not have to do that. We are a creation with high intelligence. From day one when Adam and Eve ate of the forbidden fruit, they grasped their nakedness, they grasped sin.

Mankind and angels are accountable for their actions because of their intelligence levels. Absolutely no need to spiritualize this. If we do, one could argue God showing favoritism.

Gen 3:22 The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil.

The only way the Holy Spirit can do that is by man hearing the Gospel.

Disagree. The gospel of Jesus is a good news. The good news is not the gospel from God to mankind. It is 'good news'.

The gospel from God to mankind from day one has been 'repentance of sins'. The good news is that anyone who repents of their sins no longer needs to go into Hades / Abrahams bosom. They qualify to go straight to the Father. All in Abrahams bosom could be reconciled with God the Father in heaven.

He provides the faith to believe

He provides the faith to believe in Jesus. After we repent of our sins.

The message from Jesus is repentance of sins Luke 5:32. Jesus only comes into our hearts / lives in us / we are given faith when we open the door to Him Rev:20. We open the door by, repenting of our sins.

An atheist can do this. A person on an island can do this. All are without excuse.

The gospel of Jesus is not an 'insider' advantage. Partiality by God. God loving us more then angels. Jesus was planned before the foundations of the earth because God wanted mankind to be sons and daughters in His household. For that a blood covenant was necessary.

If Jesus never died, those that repent of their sins and hate them, would still be in the 'nice' part of Hades, Abrahams bosom.

but we must respond to that Gospel in a positive manner to benefit from it.

Yes and that does not in anyway shape or form entail a belief on par with something in unicorns. If I believe in fairies and you believe in unicorns, I am right and you are wrong type nonsense.

A hard and simple repentance of sins is all that is needed. Abraham was not a Jew, he was not a Christian, he was not a Muslim, yet he was chosen, why?

God does not pick and choose who will be saved, man makes that choice.

Agree 100%

Although through His foreknowledge He already knows who will accept and who will reject.

You cannot defend God as good if you believe he has foreknowledge of the decisions we will make with regards to accepting Him or not / repenting of sins or not.

Since God is the creator of all, including an eternal hell, that would imply He be evil in making people He know would go to hell. You cannot defend God as just. You will not keep face with atheists on this.

I better explain myself here Free will. I don't want to derail this thread. Let's chat there on free will.

 

[Charlie24]

The Holy Spirit does not have to do that. We are a creation with high intelligence. From day one when Adam and Eve ate of the forbidden fruit, they grasped their nakedness, they grasped sin.

Mankind and angels are accountable for their actions because of their intelligence levels. Absolutely no need to spiritualize this. If we do, one could argue God showing favoritism.

Gen 3:22 The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil.



Disagree. The gospel of Jesus is a good news. The good news is not the gospel from God to mankind. It is 'good news'.

The gospel from God to mankind from day one has been 'repentance of sins'. The good news is that anyone who repents of their sins no longer needs to go into Hades / Abrahams bosom. They qualify to go straight to the Father. All in Abrahams bosom could be reconciled with God the Father in heaven.


He provides the faith to believe in Jesus. After we repent of our sins.

The message from Jesus is repentance of sins Luke 5:32. Jesus only comes into our hearts / lives in us / we are given faith when we open the door to Him Rev:20. We open the door by, repenting of our sins.

An atheist can do this. A person on an island can do this. All are without excuse.

The gospel of Jesus is not an 'insider' advantage. Partiality by God. God loving us more then angels. Jesus was planned before the foundations of the earth because God wanted mankind to be sons and daughters in His household. For that a blood covenant was necessary.

If Jesus never died, those that repent of their sins and hate them, would still be in the 'nice' part of Hades, Abrahams bosom.



Yes and that does not in anyway shape or form entail a belief on par with something in unicorns. If I believe in fairies and you believe in unicorns, I am right and you are wrong type nonsense.

A hard and simple repentance of sins is all that is needed. Abraham was not a Jew, he was not a Christian, he was not a Muslim, yet he was chosen, why?



Agree 100%



You cannot defend God as good if you believe he has foreknowledge of the decisions we will make with regards to accepting Him or not / repenting of sins or not.

Since God is the creator of all, including an eternal hell, that would imply He be evil in making people He know would go to hell. You cannot defend God as just. You will not keep face with atheists on this.

I better explain myself here Free will. I don't want to derail this thread. Let's chat there on free will.

I'm going to have to stop you on your first 2 paragraphs.

No one can be saved without the Holy Spirit convicting one of sin! You can hear about your sin from someone all day long, but nothing will happen until the Holy Spirit convicts you of it in the heart.

John 16:7-9
"Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

Of sin, because they believe not on me;"

Reprove means to "convict" of sin, and is absolutely necessary for one to be saved.

I'm sorry to say, there are many who have not experienced this conviction of sin.

 

[lentz]

What faith are you referring to? Your ability to believe a God exists? Your ability to believe Jesus is His Son? You have the ability to believe a man who walked the earth 2000 years ago is God of the universe?

We do not have the ability to believe this. So, please explain to me ''what faith saves us?''.

Is an adulterous wife a saint if she has ''''faith''' in unicorns?

Yourself and Charlie, have the cart before the horse.

Matt 7:22 mentions people having faith in God to cast out demons, heal the sick and prophecy. These great men and woman '''of faith''' according to Matt 7:22 are 100% en route to eternal damnation.

Now you’re just being silly and argumentative

 

[KingJ]

I'm going to have to stop you on your first 2 paragraphs.

No one can be saved without the Holy Spirit convicting one of sin! You can hear about your sin from someone all day long, but nothing will happen until the Holy Spirit convicts you of it in the heart.

John 16:7-9
"Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

Of sin, because they believe not on me;"

Reprove means to "convict" of sin, and is absolutely necessary for one to be saved.

I'm sorry to say, there are many who have not experienced this conviction of sin.

The Holy Spirit does convict us, correct. That is not the same as stating we do not need Him to do that.

Do you think all those that lived before John 16:7-9 were not convicted of sin?

A Christian is able to walk closer with God as a result of Jesus in us and the Holy Spirit leading us into all truth. That is a different topic to being convicted of sin before being saved.

 

[KingJ]

Now you’re just being silly and argumentative

You made an ambiguous statement.

What faith are you referring to? What faith has value with God? I propose 'none' except for a Christian faith that is given to u.

Prove me wrong. This is a discussion forum.

 

[lentz]

You made an ambiguous statement.

What faith are you referring to? What faith has value with God? I propose 'none' except for a Christian faith that is given to u.

Prove me wrong. This is a discussion forum.

I don’t believe there are 100 different types of faith. To hold a discussion over it would be fruitless as well as ridiculous

 

[KingJ]

I don’t believe there are 100 different types of faith. To hold a discussion over it would be fruitless as well as ridiculous

There is a thread discussing this already.

And, yes, you can have a million different types of faith. Saying to someone have faith is like saying have energy.

I agree it is a ridiculous discussion, but when people make silly statements as have been made here, a ridiculous discussion becomes necessary.

 

[lentz]

There is a thread discussing this already.

And, yes, you can have a million different types of faith. Saying to someone have faith is like saying have energy.

I agree it is a ridiculous discussion, but when people make silly statements as have been made here, a ridiculous discussion becomes necessary.

Seems you’re the driving force

 

[B-A-C]

I know there is a thread on this subject but can’t find it.

There have been quite a few over the years.

OSAS - debate # 2,134,567

Part 1 Once saved - always saved. This is perhaps one of the greatest dividing factors in the Church today. There are Churches such as the Unitarians that believe everyone is saved no matter what. You don’t have to believe in God or Jesus or anything. Jesus died for everyone, so everyone is...

www.talkjesus.com

OSAS - Cruise Control

Most of the cars I've had over the past few years have something called cruise control on them. It's nice because I have a bad habit of going faster and faster without really noticing it until I hear sirens behind me. There have even been times when I was day-dreaming or distracted and started...

www.talkjesus.com

Once saved always saved?

I was told by a coworker that he's saved. Ok great grand wonderful Then I asked what he's been reading & what his favorite scripture is so far... His reply was - - - - 'I don't read the Bible much anymore now that I'm saved you know so, once saved always saved' This was my response o_O

www.talkjesus.com

 

[KingJ]

I don’t believe there are 100 different types of faith. To hold a discussion over it would be fruitless as well as ridiculous

Please read post #10 in this thread God's 360 Plan and you will see the point I am making on the value of 'our faith'.

 

[A servant of the Kings]

I know there is a thread on this subject but can’t find it.
I don’t intend to dwell on it, but when Peter talked about the dog returning to it vomit and the sowell wallowing in her more, it would indicate those people were never saved to begin with.

John said those that went out was not of them,if they were of them they would never have gone out from among them.
I’m on the fence still on this one.

It is because, as John says all who knows the truth, knows and loves the chosen ladies and their babies:

1The elder, To the chosen lady and her children, whom I love in the truth— and not I alone, but also all who know the truth— 2because of the truth that abides in us and will be with us forever:…

The chosen ladies and there babies are where there is no time, where eternity is
So that when we have been there we are there always, independent of time.

 

[ABlessedMan]

OSAS originated with Calvin. According to him, man has no free will to choose God, so if God chooses you, then you can't lose your salvation.

Needless to say, I totally disagree with him. There are far to many verses of Scripture that show us we can choose God and then turn from that choice.

As the Scripture says, "no man can pluck them out of my hand" BUT, man can choose to pluck himself out of His hand.

What a thread this is. My head was spinning. But I had to come back here first: Calvin did not originate OSAS. Augustine did, wrote about it in the 4th century, long before Calving picked it up and held it high.

BTW, OSAS is a correct biblical doctrine (and I'm not a Calvinist). Most verses that can come against it are actually speaking of a saved man backsliding, which is NOT a loss of salvation, but rather a recurrance of sinning in the saved man.

Somewhere in this thead a quote of Ezekiel speaking of a righteous man was given. We must be careful when using the Old Testament, for the writings were generally, albeit not completely, for the Jews. The term "righteous man" is found in many places in the OT.

Psalm 34:19
Many are the afflictions of the righteous,
But the Lord delivers him out of them all.

Did OT saints know Christ? Did they call upon the name of Jesus and thus become righteous? Of course not.

Proverbs 29:2
When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice;
But when a wicked man rules, the people groan.

Is this proverb speaking of a Christian being in authority? No, I would think not. It simply says that a person with good moral thinking. He may not be saved -- by whatever this could mean in the OT. But that is a larger topic that is not specific to OSAS (or Ezekiel, in this case).

All in all, on the subject of OSAS, I only know of one verse that strongly could be used against it. Hebrews 6:4-6. But in context it really isn't as strong as one might think.

 

[A servant of the Kings]

What a thread this is. My head was spinning. But I had to come back here first: Calvin did not originate OSAS. Augustine did, wrote about it in the 4th century, long before Calving picked it up and held it high.

BTW, OSAS is a correct biblical doctrine (and I'm not a Calvinist). Most verses that can come against it are actually speaking of a saved man backsliding, which is NOT a loss of salvation, but rather a recurrance of sinning in the saved man.

Somewhere in this thead a quote of Ezekiel speaking of a righteous man was given. We must be careful when using the Old Testament, for the writings were generally, albeit not completely, for the Jews. The term "righteous man" is found in many places in the OT.

Psalm 34:19
Many are the afflictions of the righteous,
But the Lord delivers him out of them all.

Did OT saints know Christ? Did they call upon the name of Jesus and thus become righteous? Of course not.

Proverbs 29:2
When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice;
But when a wicked man rules, the people groan.

Is this proverb speaking of a Christian being in authority? No, I would think not. It simply says that a person with good moral thinking. He may not be saved -- by whatever this could mean in the OT. But that is a larger topic that is not specific to OSAS (or Ezekiel, in this case).

All in all, on the subject of OSAS, I only know of one verse that strongly could be used against it. Hebrews 6:4-6. But in context it really isn't as strong as one might think.

What confuses you is a lack of understanding that Jesus is in timelessness.

Since He ascended to Father, With Father there is no time, there is timelessness.

So Who is with Father has always been with Father, and will always be, God willing.

 

[Charlie24]

What a thread this is. My head was spinning. But I had to come back here first: Calvin did not originate OSAS. Augustine did, wrote about it in the 4th century, long before Calving picked it up and held it high.

BTW, OSAS is a correct biblical doctrine (and I'm not a Calvinist). Most verses that can come against it are actually speaking of a saved man backsliding, which is NOT a loss of salvation, but rather a recurrance of sinning in the saved man.

Somewhere in this thead a quote of Ezekiel speaking of a righteous man was given. We must be careful when using the Old Testament, for the writings were generally, albeit not completely, for the Jews. The term "righteous man" is found in many places in the OT.

Psalm 34:19
Many are the afflictions of the righteous,
But the Lord delivers him out of them all.

Did OT saints know Christ? Did they call upon the name of Jesus and thus become righteous? Of course not.

Proverbs 29:2
When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice;
But when a wicked man rules, the people groan.

Is this proverb speaking of a Christian being in authority? No, I would think not. It simply says that a person with good moral thinking. He may not be saved -- by whatever this could mean in the OT. But that is a larger topic that is not specific to OSAS (or Ezekiel, in this case).

All in all, on the subject of OSAS, I only know of one verse that strongly could be used against it. Hebrews 6:4-6. But in context it really isn't as strong as one might think.

It' s true Augustine originated predestination, Calvin took it to its conclusion step by step. He finished what Augustine started.

What do you think of this verse?

Hebrews 3:14

"For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;"

 

[ABlessedMan]

What confuses you is a lack of understanding that Jesus is in timelessness.

Since He ascended to Father, With Father there is no time, there is timelessness.

So Who is with Father has always been with Father, and will always be, God willing.

So from my post you've concluded that I don't understand that Jesus is timeless? Or do you have a private interpretation about what timelessness is?

Jesus indeed ascended to the Father. The Father, Son and Spirit are One: God. God is timeless. Philippians 2:7 tells us that Jesus took on the form of a man, becoming a man (who lives in time). This did not make him any less part of the Godhead, according to scripture: "I and My Father are one" John 10:30.

Jesus name, nor title, is "Who." What church teaches you this? God is one God. He is present in three persons: the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit; all one God. When the Son was on the earth, he bacame man and did not give up being God. But as a man on earth, he spoke of the Father, not as being someone or something apart from himself, but simply as the Father in heaven and he is the Son, being on earth. But he said clearly that he and the Father were one.

There is nothing odd about the teaching of the Trinity in the Christian Church. There are oddities when we look to the cults. Timelessness is certainly an attribute of God.