Partial Preterism
- Thread starter DHC
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DHC
Member
Hello Bambi.
Shall we start with some verses from Matthew 24.
Matthew 24
15 Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation which was spoken of through Daniel
the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), 16 then those who are in Judea
must flee to the mountains. 17 Whoever is on the housetop must not go down to get the things out
that are in his house. 18 Whoever is in the field must not turn back to get his cloak. 19 But woe to
those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 20 But pray that your
flight will not be in the winter, or on a Sabbath. 21 For then there will be a great tribulation, such
as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will. 22 Unless those days
had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be
cut short.
How would you interpret the verses above Bambi?
Shall we start with some verses from Matthew 24.
Matthew 24
15 Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation which was spoken of through Daniel
the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), 16 then those who are in Judea
must flee to the mountains. 17 Whoever is on the housetop must not go down to get the things out
that are in his house. 18 Whoever is in the field must not turn back to get his cloak. 19 But woe to
those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 20 But pray that your
flight will not be in the winter, or on a Sabbath. 21 For then there will be a great tribulation, such
as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will. 22 Unless those days
had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be
cut short.
How would you interpret the verses above Bambi?
Bambi
Member
First thing I don't fully agree with some of the Preterist views, but I do agree that most of prophecy has been fulfilled.
In the book of Daniel there are three abominations listed Daniel 9, 11 &12. I believe they all are three separate incidents. Chapter 12 is the one Christ is referring too. I'm not sure exactly what it is that happens. There are a few ideas of what it is, but I do believe that it happened around 66 or 67 AD. The 3 1/2 years mentioned in Daniel ends when Jerusalem falls in 70 AD.
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DHC
Member
Hello Bambi.
I do agree with the interpretation that you presented in your last post Bambi.
The reason your interpretation is sound at this point is the context that Matthew 24 demands has
been followed by you.
Jesus is answering the three questions that the disciples asked Him, these three questions are crucial
in understanding Matthew 24 as a whole.
Matthew 24
3 As He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying,
“Tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and
of the end of the age?”
Question 1 - When will the temple be torn down
Question 2 - What will be the sign of your coming
Question 3 - What will be the sign of the end of the age
Jesus was answering the first question about the timing of the destruction of the temple.
Jerusalem was destroyed by Titus in AD70, and the temple was demolished stone by stone.
Jesus is telling the disciples that the beautiful temple that stands before them will be torn
down. Jesus also adds that when this event occurs 'those who are in Judea must flee'.
No time for hesitation Jesus tells the disciples, leave when you see the desolation.
So the verses (15-20) in Matthew 24 comprise the answer to the first question asked by the disciples.
Now Bambi would you care to continue to interpret Matthew 24 within the context of the three questions
that the disciples asked.
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clark thompson
Member
If Christ returned why is the church still here?
Bambi
Member
Are you wanting me to answer the three questions you have posted or do you want me to go through each verse following vs 20 and give you an interpretation?
I'll just answer for now those three questions, because my answer is still 70 AD.
Q-1 Well we know according to history the temple was torn down in 70 AD. But their question was, "When shall these things be?" Which would be the same answer. At the end of chapter 23 Jesus tells us that, "Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation." Mt 23:36 Also in Mat 24:34 "Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled." So within a generation (40 years) these things would be fulfilled.
Q-2 Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
The sign will be Jesus coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. Some people say that this is a literally coming, his second coming. In context of scripture this isn't. This is Christ coming in judgment against those who Christ judged in Matt 23. In the Old Testament God came in the clouds but the people never saw him. It's the samething here, Christ comes in judgment but you will never see him.
Exo_19:9 And the LORD said unto Moses, Lo, I come unto thee in a thick cloud, that the people may hear when I speak with thee, and believe thee for ever. And Moses told the words of the people unto the LORD.
Psa 97:2 Clouds and darkness are round about him: righteousness and judgment are the habitation of his throne. Jer 4:13 Behold, he shall come up as clouds, and his chariots shall be as a whirlwind: his horses are swifter than eagles. Woe unto us! for we are spoiled.
Nah 1:3 The LORD is slow to anger, and great in power, and will not at all acquit the wicked: the LORD hath his way in the whirlwind and in the storm, and the clouds are the dust of his feet.
Q-3 Some believe that this is referring to the end of the world. Which is funny if you think about those who believe God's promise to Israel, concerning land was for forever. It's not if the world ends. But I don't believe it will end. There are some verses in the Old Testament that say the world is forever.
Psa_78:69 And he built his sanctuary like high palaces, like the earth which he hath established for ever.
Psa_104:5 Who laid the foundations of the earth, that it should not be removed for ever.
Ecc_1:4 One generation passeth away, and another generation cometh: but the earth abideth for ever.
Your question gives a clue to the answer. It is the end of an age. This is the end of the Jewish religion age. There will be no more temple worship.
Joh 4:21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.
Joh 4:22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
Joh 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
The answer to what, will be the destruction of the temple.
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Bambi
Member
I guess you want me to go on?
The rest of Matthew 24 some Preterist think it's divided around verse 37. I can see why they would think that, but it doesn't make any sense to me to divided it. My view is that Christ is telling them things that will occur to them during the next 40 years. Ending with the destruction of Jerusalem.
The rest of Matthew 24 some Preterist think it's divided around verse 37. I can see why they would think that, but it doesn't make any sense to me to divided it. My view is that Christ is telling them things that will occur to them during the next 40 years. Ending with the destruction of Jerusalem.
TheWidowsOffering
Member
Meaning Matthew 24 is already fulfilled? And Christ has already really returned? You think so the "earth" referred in the book of Psalms which you mentioned is the same as the one we are living now or the one which is mentioned in revelation "the new heaven and new earth" (Revelation 21)? since 2 Peter 3:9-11 said everything will be destroyed by fire. How about the New Jerusalem , is it now the existing Jerusalem we know because it was already been destroyed some how in history which I do know. LOL
There was a time, I also have wanted it so much to study and know about the prophesies on these books (Daniel 12, Matthew 24 and the book of Revelation) and see for myself how many things left unfulfilled in them, but as I do desire more to know about it, the Holy Spirit spoke one time in my heart these words “It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority.8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.” Acts 1:7-8
Since then, the desire to be filled always by the Holy Spirit is all I wanted that I may be empowered to be a witness of the Gospel in God's own special ways, since one of the determining factor that the end will come is for the Gospel of the kingdom to be preached in the whole world. If we will gonna search a census how many peoples left who had not heard yet of the Gospel, I'm sure there will still be not only a hundreds of millions but of billions of people who know nothing about God's love and salvation, about His Kingdom and His righteousness. That is just on Asia, I don't know yet in other continents of the earth.
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DHC
Member
Hello Bambi.
Sorry for the delay to this post but I had other matters to attend to.
These three questions that the disciples asked provides the outline for (Matthew 24). So the structure of (Matthew 24)
is aligned as sections answering each of these questions. (Matthew 24) contains two broad answers that Jesus gave to
the disciples. One answer is for Israel and the other answer is for all nations.
Your comment on the first question Bambi I will print below.
Q-1 Well we know according to history the temple was torn down in 70 AD. But their question was, "When shall these things be?" Which would be the same answer. At the end of chapter 23 Jesus tells us that, "Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation." Mt 23:36 Also in Mat 24:34 "Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled." So within a generation (40 years) these things would be fulfilled.
You seem to interpret the 'all things' that come upon Israel during the current generation, as all the end time events that Jesus
spoke. This would be a haphazard approach to reading this chapter. May I draw your attention to the identical verses in Luke 21.
Luke 2120 But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is near.
21 Then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains, and those who are in the midst of
the city must leave, and those who are in the country must not enter the city; 22 because these
are days of vengeance, so that all things which are written will be fulfilled. 23 Woe to those who
are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days; for there will be great distress
upon the land and wrath to this people; 24 and they will fall by the edge of the sword, and will
be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled under foot by the Gentiles
until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.
The 'all things' refer to the judgments upon the present generation of Israel. In other words Israel
will receive the judgment God has assigned to her, to fulfill the scripture. This does not mean all
judgments or all prophecies within the scripture apply to this generation. Jesus clearly states in (Luke 21)
that Jerusalem will be led captive into all the nations Bambi. This is also part of the 'all things' you mentioned.
The Gentiles will have there own time in the sun, also to fulfill all things.
To fulfill all scripture is a continual process of fulfillment, not completed by the fulfillment
at any particular stage.
Brother Paul
Active
Hi all...may I make a point here...
We see in verse 2 Jesus telling the disciples about the fall of the temple...in verse 3 the disciples ask two questions....the first is when will these things be (meaning the destruction of the Temple) and then they ask a second question "And what will be the sign(s) of your coming" (His parousia)....these are two separate questions about two separate events and Jesus answers the two questions in the rest of the chapter.
The rest of the chapter is neither speaking only to the Jews (as some dispensationalists like to claim) and neither is it speaking only to the events of 70 A.D. (which Preterists like to claim)...we know this for two reasons...the first is because of all else that speaks of His coming (parousia), most precisely the words of Paul who tells us "
For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord (referring to Matthew 24), that we which are alive and remain unto the coming (the parousia) of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
And second because all the early fathers taught by the Apostles or those men they taught and appointed make these events still future events (and not one has ever heard of Pre-Trib and all teach the persecution of the church by Anti-Christ)
So according to the scriptures, when will the catching up (the gathering of the elect) be? At the coming (the parousia)...what else happens then?
a) the whole world will see Him (no secret)
b) the Anti-Christ (the man of sin) will be consumed by the brightness of "His coming"
So the Rez/Rapture according to Jesus and Paul happens at the parousia and at the end of the reign of Anti-Christ...(in fact it is the end of His reign - same event)
A great misunderstanding has been perpetrated...there are two halfs to the tribulation period...the reign of antichrist (who persecutes the church who remains till the coming) and then the pouring out of God's wrath (which we being now with Christ do escape).
Paul's use of "apentensis" (to meet) speaks of an action which is incomplete implying when this parousia occurs, He who is coming comes all the way down (us being with Him having been gathered to Him)...it is like when a dignitary is coming to town and a group of like minded people join in with the procession before it arrives, but it in no way implies they meet the dignitary and then the dignitary returns to his place of origin ( the word just does not mean this).
Also all who write of the parousia declare every eye shall see Him...like lightening that shines from the east to the west...they wilol mourn because of He whom they pierced.
So as James tells us, "Be patient brethren (the church) until the coming (the parousia)..." And I would just add be ready always....
Brother Paul
We see in verse 2 Jesus telling the disciples about the fall of the temple...in verse 3 the disciples ask two questions....the first is when will these things be (meaning the destruction of the Temple) and then they ask a second question "And what will be the sign(s) of your coming" (His parousia)....these are two separate questions about two separate events and Jesus answers the two questions in the rest of the chapter.
The rest of the chapter is neither speaking only to the Jews (as some dispensationalists like to claim) and neither is it speaking only to the events of 70 A.D. (which Preterists like to claim)...we know this for two reasons...the first is because of all else that speaks of His coming (parousia), most precisely the words of Paul who tells us "
For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord (referring to Matthew 24), that we which are alive and remain unto the coming (the parousia) of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
And second because all the early fathers taught by the Apostles or those men they taught and appointed make these events still future events (and not one has ever heard of Pre-Trib and all teach the persecution of the church by Anti-Christ)
So according to the scriptures, when will the catching up (the gathering of the elect) be? At the coming (the parousia)...what else happens then?
a) the whole world will see Him (no secret)
b) the Anti-Christ (the man of sin) will be consumed by the brightness of "His coming"
So the Rez/Rapture according to Jesus and Paul happens at the parousia and at the end of the reign of Anti-Christ...(in fact it is the end of His reign - same event)
A great misunderstanding has been perpetrated...there are two halfs to the tribulation period...the reign of antichrist (who persecutes the church who remains till the coming) and then the pouring out of God's wrath (which we being now with Christ do escape).
Paul's use of "apentensis" (to meet) speaks of an action which is incomplete implying when this parousia occurs, He who is coming comes all the way down (us being with Him having been gathered to Him)...it is like when a dignitary is coming to town and a group of like minded people join in with the procession before it arrives, but it in no way implies they meet the dignitary and then the dignitary returns to his place of origin ( the word just does not mean this).
Also all who write of the parousia declare every eye shall see Him...like lightening that shines from the east to the west...they wilol mourn because of He whom they pierced.
So as James tells us, "Be patient brethren (the church) until the coming (the parousia)..." And I would just add be ready always....
Brother Paul
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DHC
Member
Hello Brother Paul.
Your input is welcome, after all this is a public forum.
As you said in your post 'and neither is it speaking only to the events of 70 A.D'.
The trick is to explain what the following verse for example is actually saying.
Matthew 23
36 Truly I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.
Is the phrase 'all these things' applicable only to the current generation in Israel
at the time of Christ? (the literal reading)
Or does 'all these things' apply to the Jewish race itself, i.e., 'generation' equals race.
(a dispensation in effect)
Does the phrase 'all these things' mean all things written in the scripture for example all
prophecies contained in the book of Revelations? Or perhaps does the phrase 'all these things'
mean what Jesus spoke about earlier as listed in chapter 23 of the Gospel of Matthew.
(context of the chapter)
So Brother Paul if you can deal with the subject of Preterism that would be appreciated.
Offering your own brand of eschatology is not really dealing with the verse above.
I subscribe to neither dispensation theology or Preterism eschatology.
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Brother Paul
Active
Well first off I did not say you did adhere to either of these but regarding the question you just addressed, you are going back in time to a different dialogue, having nothing to do with the topic at hand which responds to the disciples two questions,...this (Matthew 23 passage) refers to all those of the generation that did these things...the preterist or even partial preterist interpretation of Matthew 24 and Revelations is amiss regarding 70 A.D....that was the actual point...not meant to impose MY theology since I dealt only with scripture...not my "own brand of eschatology".
So now note Revelations 1:7 (written at least a decade after the 70 A.D. events) where it is written to saved Christians Behold He comes with the clouds and EVERY EYE shall see Him, and they also which pierced Him, and all the kindreds of the earth shall mourn because of HIm. Even so Amen.
Therefore, these things (His coming, the whole world seeing it, the whole world mourning over the Me who was pierced in Zechariah 12:10 the consumption of the Anti-Christ at that time, the catching up of the saints to meet Him in the air, the first resurrection, etc.,) did not only not happen in 70 A.D., but are they taught to the next generation (or two) to be as yet still future (therefore the church also did not interpret these things in a preterist or partial preterist manner)...as for the abomination that makes desolate, Antiochus as well as Titus are merely types of the one the church continued to preach was to come...so can you see how what I mentioned was indeed related to the topic?
Brother Paul
So now note Revelations 1:7 (written at least a decade after the 70 A.D. events) where it is written to saved Christians Behold He comes with the clouds and EVERY EYE shall see Him, and they also which pierced Him, and all the kindreds of the earth shall mourn because of HIm. Even so Amen.
Therefore, these things (His coming, the whole world seeing it, the whole world mourning over the Me who was pierced in Zechariah 12:10 the consumption of the Anti-Christ at that time, the catching up of the saints to meet Him in the air, the first resurrection, etc.,) did not only not happen in 70 A.D., but are they taught to the next generation (or two) to be as yet still future (therefore the church also did not interpret these things in a preterist or partial preterist manner)...as for the abomination that makes desolate, Antiochus as well as Titus are merely types of the one the church continued to preach was to come...so can you see how what I mentioned was indeed related to the topic?
Brother Paul
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DHC
Member
Hello Brother Paul.
The smoke is clearing and I do see some relevance to the subject topic Preterism.
In your last post # 12 , you stated that there were only two questions that the disciples asked.
Matthew 24
3 As He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying,
“Tell us, when will these things happen(1), and what will be the sign of Your coming(2), and
of the end of the age(3)?”
I count three distinct and seperate questions, where do you get two questions from?
Though I have not had my eyes tested for some time I might add B.P.
Then you quoted (Revelations 1:7) and stated that it was written at least a decade
after 70AD. There is no concrete method of dating the letters in the New Testament.
Dating the book of Revelations is no easy task BP, dates vary from before 70AD thru
to 95AD. Unless you have some inside information that will provide us with the exact
date we must rely on the scholars. As usual there is controversy regarding the dating
of many of N.T letters and scholars differ in the time periods they offer.
I think partial preterism believes that Jesus returned in AD70 in spirit form. I also
think that partial preterism teaches that Jesus may return again at a future date also. This
would need to be confirmed by the proponents of preterism.
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Brother Paul
Active
I count three distinct and seperate questions, where do you get two questions from?
Though I have not had my eyes tested for some time I might add B.P.
Fair enough…I see His coming as the end of the age (and)…
I think partial preterism believes that Jesus returned in AD70 in spirit form. I also
think that partial preterism teaches that Jesus may return again at a future date also. This
would need to be confirmed by the proponents of preterism.
I do believe that is what they believe, but the first and second statements are not in agreement with scripture. Now we know from scripture that since Pentecost Christ dwells IN believers (those of who have been baptized into Christ by the Spirit, fulfilling His prayer in John 17 – He in us and we in Him – like the relationship He has with the Father), but a separate coming in a spirit form I cannot find anywhere.
a) Exegetically I cannot even make the history jibe… The parousia did not occur (Jesus did not come back – Zechariah 12:10) or the whole world would have seen Him…
b) If Titus was the Anti-Christ (ultimate man of wickedness) why wasn’t He consumed by the brightness of His coming…
c) If we (all Christians allegedly born from above after) missed the first resurrection and the rapture then we are in a most miserable state looking forward to the Judgment…
Bambi...I am addressing the OP here (DHC's)...please re-post the issues you believe are important to consider...
Thanks and the peace of the Lord be with us and between us as we discuss...
Brother Paul
Though I have not had my eyes tested for some time I might add B.P.
Fair enough…I see His coming as the end of the age (and)…
I think partial preterism believes that Jesus returned in AD70 in spirit form. I also
think that partial preterism teaches that Jesus may return again at a future date also. This
would need to be confirmed by the proponents of preterism.
I do believe that is what they believe, but the first and second statements are not in agreement with scripture. Now we know from scripture that since Pentecost Christ dwells IN believers (those of who have been baptized into Christ by the Spirit, fulfilling His prayer in John 17 – He in us and we in Him – like the relationship He has with the Father), but a separate coming in a spirit form I cannot find anywhere.
a) Exegetically I cannot even make the history jibe… The parousia did not occur (Jesus did not come back – Zechariah 12:10) or the whole world would have seen Him…
b) If Titus was the Anti-Christ (ultimate man of wickedness) why wasn’t He consumed by the brightness of His coming…
c) If we (all Christians allegedly born from above after) missed the first resurrection and the rapture then we are in a most miserable state looking forward to the Judgment…
Bambi...I am addressing the OP here (DHC's)...please re-post the issues you believe are important to consider...
Thanks and the peace of the Lord be with us and between us as we discuss...
Brother Paul
Bambi
Member
I don't have time today to re-post, but would you re-consider re-reading my posts again?
Bambi
Member
I was thinking about answering all of the questions, but I think I'll just limit it to those concerning Matt 24.
Q-1 Do I believe Matt 24 has been fulfilled? Yes
Q-2 Do I believe Jesus already returned? No. There are two views, in scripture, on the word parousia. One is literal the other is figurative or coming in judgement. I believe Christ came in judgement in
Matt 24.
Q-3 Do I believe Matt 24 is talking about the rapture? No.
Q-4 Do I believe Matt 24 is talking about the Great Tribulation in Revelation? Yes, but it has already happened. Fulfilled by 70 AD.
Q-5 What does "All things" mean in Matt 24:34? All the things that Christ talks about in Matt 23 &24.
Q-1 Do I believe Matt 24 has been fulfilled? Yes
Q-2 Do I believe Jesus already returned? No. There are two views, in scripture, on the word parousia. One is literal the other is figurative or coming in judgement. I believe Christ came in judgement in
Matt 24.
Q-3 Do I believe Matt 24 is talking about the rapture? No.
Q-4 Do I believe Matt 24 is talking about the Great Tribulation in Revelation? Yes, but it has already happened. Fulfilled by 70 AD.
Q-5 What does "All things" mean in Matt 24:34? All the things that Christ talks about in Matt 23 &24.
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DHC
Member
Hello Bambi.
I read your last post and I thank you for the additional information. Your position
is much more legible now and I see the clear distinction in the dual returns of Christ.
Your Partial Preterist eschatology and it's unique interpretation of the Gospel of Matthew.
In fact this proposes a dilemma that is impossible to justify from the scripture. Here is the
foundation verse in the Gospel on which all the various Preterist viewpoints are based.
Matthew 24
34 Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.
Now to follow the line of interpretation in Preterism we must define the two phrases.
Phrase 1: 'this generation' must be the audience that Jesus was addressing.
Phrase 2: 'all these things' means absolutely all prophetic events with no exceptions.
There cannot be a prophetic event that is an exception as the phrase is specific. All
these things means 'all' and not part thereof.
So the dilemma exists, the interpretation of 'all' leaves no room to move within the
interpretational approach. Thereby the position of Partial Preterism is refuted within
the wording of this one verse. One cannot choose to interpret 'all these things' as
'almost all these things'. Because this partial interpretation would be a paradox as 'all'
either means everything or it does not mean everything! One cannot say 'all things' means
'not all things' that is a paradox.
What kind of interpretation emphasizes the phrase 'all these things' as literal then
retreats to a meaning of 'almost all these things'. I have trouble understanding the
double interpretation of the verse?
Brother Paul
Active
Yes! The Lord bless you and keep you...but I will disagree on the this generations....the generation spoken of in 23 are those who were present and approved of the things (when they slew the prophets etc.,) and the this generation in 24:34 is that generation alive when these things occur (the appearing/coming, the gathering together unto Him when the dead are raised)...
If you look at these two passages...
For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
We see that with these events the people will not expect or know until it happens suddenly (at least to the children of darkness, but we are of the day that ir should not overtake us as a thief in the night) but in 70 A.D. the Romans had long expressed their intent and began this process in 67 1/2 A.D....for 2 1/2 years they knew (the Christians had left already) and still resisted...they were given opportunity to escape...by 70 A.D. it was pure stupid pride that caused the Jewish people who remained to stay. Nothing sudden here...the two scenarios cannot be equated at all...
When Jesus comes in judgment the sheep and the goats will be divided and judged and the condemned will be cast into the lake which burns (whether that be literal or figurative)...and that would mean THIS is the new Earth (whether new or renewed) which it clearly is not.
Also the timing in Daniel 12 does not fit...when the daily sacrifice ceased (when the Temple was sieged and the priests died or escaped) and Titus entered into the Temple was within the same year and not 1290 days. If it were speaking of this time, the daily sacrifices would have had to have ceased in 67 1/2 A.D. but Titus did not lay actual siege on the city until Passover (April) of 70 A.D. and tore down the Temple (his abomination taking place shortly before) in September of 70 A.D.
Brother Paul
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Brother Paul
Active
Most Partial Preterists writing on the subject contend that they are in agreement and conformity with the historic ecumenical creeds of the church and articulate the doctrine of the resurrection held by the early church fathers. But is this true? Let us look at some of the fathers statements regarding these events…
Didache (AD 100) "then shall appear the world-deceiver as Son of God, and shall do signs and wonders, and the earth shall be delivered into his hands, ...but they that endure in their faith shall be saved from under the curse itself. And then shall appear the signs of the truth; first, the sign of an out-spreading in heaven; then the sign of the sound of the trumpet; and the third, the resurrection of the dead; yet not of all, but as it is said: The Lord shall come and all His saints with Him. Then shall the world see the Lord coming upon the clouds of heaven." Didache - Chapter 16
Justin Martyr (AD 100-168) "Two advents of Christ have been announced: the one, in which He is set forth as suffering, inglorious, dishonored, and crucified; but the other, in which He shall come from heaven with glory, when the man of apostasy, who speaks strange things against the Most High, shall venture to do unlawful deeds on the earth against us the Christians, “ First Apology of Justine, Chapter 110
Irenaeus (AD 140-202) and put the church to flight. After that they shall be destroyed by the coming of our Lord." Against Heresies V, XXVI, 1
Tertullian (AD 150-220) that the beast Antichrist, with his false prophet may wage war on the Church of God” On the Resurrection of the Flesh, 25
Hippolytus (AD 160-240) " ... the one thousand two hundred and three score days (the half of the week) during which the tyrant is to reign and persecute the Church …” Treatise on Christ and Antichrist, 61
Cyprian (AD 200-258) "[T]he Lord hath foretold that these things would come. With the exhortation of His forseeing word, instructing, and teaching, and preparing, and strengthening the people of His Church for all endurance of things to come. He previously warned us that the adversary would increase more and more in the last times." (Treatise 7) "For you ought to know and to believe, and hold it for certain, that the day of affliction has begun to hang over our heads, and the end of the world and the time of Antichrist to draw near, so that we must all stand prepared for the battle ... “The time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service…” Nor let any one wonder that we are harassed with increasing afflictions, when the Lord before predicted that these things would happen in the last times “ Epistles of Cyprian, LV, 1,2
“Nor let any one of you, beloved brethren, be so terrified by the fear of future persecution, or the coming of the threatening Antichrist, as not to be found armed for all things by the evangelical exhortations and precepts, and by the heavenly warnings. Antichrist is coming… but immediately the Lord follows to avenge our sufferings and our wounds”. Epistles of Cyprian, LIII, p.722
Victorinus (AD 269-271) "He shall cause also that a golden image of Antichrist shall be placed in the temple at Jerusalem, and that the apostate angel should enter, and thence utter voices and oracles... The Lord, admonishing His churches concerning the last times and their dangers, ... three years and six months, in which with all his power the devil will avenge himself under Antichrist against the Church." Commentary on the Apocalypse, 20:1-3
Augustine (AD 354-430) “... the kingdom of Antichrist shall fiercely, though for a short time, assail the Church... " (The City of God, XX, 23)
You should be able to see clearly that they all taught these are still yet future events, even as late as the 4th century…
Brother Paul
Didache (AD 100) "then shall appear the world-deceiver as Son of God, and shall do signs and wonders, and the earth shall be delivered into his hands, ...but they that endure in their faith shall be saved from under the curse itself. And then shall appear the signs of the truth; first, the sign of an out-spreading in heaven; then the sign of the sound of the trumpet; and the third, the resurrection of the dead; yet not of all, but as it is said: The Lord shall come and all His saints with Him. Then shall the world see the Lord coming upon the clouds of heaven." Didache - Chapter 16
Justin Martyr (AD 100-168) "Two advents of Christ have been announced: the one, in which He is set forth as suffering, inglorious, dishonored, and crucified; but the other, in which He shall come from heaven with glory, when the man of apostasy, who speaks strange things against the Most High, shall venture to do unlawful deeds on the earth against us the Christians, “ First Apology of Justine, Chapter 110
Irenaeus (AD 140-202) and put the church to flight. After that they shall be destroyed by the coming of our Lord." Against Heresies V, XXVI, 1
Tertullian (AD 150-220) that the beast Antichrist, with his false prophet may wage war on the Church of God” On the Resurrection of the Flesh, 25
Hippolytus (AD 160-240) " ... the one thousand two hundred and three score days (the half of the week) during which the tyrant is to reign and persecute the Church …” Treatise on Christ and Antichrist, 61
Cyprian (AD 200-258) "[T]he Lord hath foretold that these things would come. With the exhortation of His forseeing word, instructing, and teaching, and preparing, and strengthening the people of His Church for all endurance of things to come. He previously warned us that the adversary would increase more and more in the last times." (Treatise 7) "For you ought to know and to believe, and hold it for certain, that the day of affliction has begun to hang over our heads, and the end of the world and the time of Antichrist to draw near, so that we must all stand prepared for the battle ... “The time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service…” Nor let any one wonder that we are harassed with increasing afflictions, when the Lord before predicted that these things would happen in the last times “ Epistles of Cyprian, LV, 1,2
“Nor let any one of you, beloved brethren, be so terrified by the fear of future persecution, or the coming of the threatening Antichrist, as not to be found armed for all things by the evangelical exhortations and precepts, and by the heavenly warnings. Antichrist is coming… but immediately the Lord follows to avenge our sufferings and our wounds”. Epistles of Cyprian, LIII, p.722
Victorinus (AD 269-271) "He shall cause also that a golden image of Antichrist shall be placed in the temple at Jerusalem, and that the apostate angel should enter, and thence utter voices and oracles... The Lord, admonishing His churches concerning the last times and their dangers, ... three years and six months, in which with all his power the devil will avenge himself under Antichrist against the Church." Commentary on the Apocalypse, 20:1-3
Augustine (AD 354-430) “... the kingdom of Antichrist shall fiercely, though for a short time, assail the Church... " (The City of God, XX, 23)
You should be able to see clearly that they all taught these are still yet future events, even as late as the 4th century…
Brother Paul
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