Pre-trib Rapture only, anything else incriminates God

[joestue]

There are many fake Christians that cast out demons

No.

Its a dog and pony show with nothing of substance.

I know a 70 year old somewhat mentally ill woman who showed me her miraculous gold cavity fillings that a traveling healer did for her.

No.. they dont actually exist. But she believes they do. And i really do mean that.

She is a christian and sometimes it seemed the Holy Spirit did speak through her to me, and even 10 years later her sons thanked me for helping their family out.

But there are some spiritual delusions she isnt even psychologically ready to understand are delusions.

She has a bible with literally a thousand notes in it, where "God" showed her all the verses that prove the rapture will happen 3.5 years after Jesus is supernaturally born of a virgin again....

I didnt tell her that there was a cult 1800 years ago that believes Jesus would be born of a virgin again, be crucified again, the second time to redeem all of the demons.

I wonder if they thought it would happen a third time for satan himself.

There is nothing new under the sun.

 

[zeth4500]

If you have the mark of the beast can you be saved by faith per Rom 10:9?

absolutely not.

 

[Bill]

absolutely not.

May Jesus fill us with his love and wisdom

You're absolutely correct. A person cannot be saved once he takes the mark of the beast.

There are a couple of reasons for that. The first reason is going to be what takes place during the breaking of The Sixth Seal. During this time God is going to reveal themselves to us and we are going to see ourselves the way God sees us.

And more importantly about this particular moment of the breaking of the Six Seal, is that we will not have the faith the way that we have it at our present time. Our faith is going to be like the faith of angels, that is, we will know exactly who God is. There will be no doubt in our mind that God is real.

The scripture tells us that anyone who takes the mark of the beast is doomed. It is a sin against the Holy Spirit.

So at the time of the mark of the beast you will have no doubt in your mind who God is, and the fact that it is a sin against the Holy Spirit is the reason why there is no forgiveness for the act of taking the Mark of the Beast

 

[KingJ]

May Jesus fill us with his love and wisdom

You're absolutely correct. A person cannot be saved once he takes the mark of the beast.

There are a couple of reasons for that. The first reason is going to be what takes place during the breaking of The Sixth Seal. During this time God is going to reveal themselves to us and we are going to see ourselves the way God sees us.

And more importantly about this particular moment of the breaking of the Six Seal, is that we will not have the faith the way that we have it at our present time. Our faith is going to be like the faith of angels, that is, we will know exactly who God is. There will be no doubt in our mind that God is real.

The scripture tells us that anyone who takes the mark of the beast is doomed. It is a sin against the Holy Spirit.

So at the time of the mark of the beast you will have no doubt in your mind who God is, and the fact that it is a sin against the Holy Spirit is the reason why there is no forgiveness for the act of taking the Mark of the Beast

This makes sense. I agree with most of it.

Now you just need to be intellectually honest and agree with me.

Clearly state that... Rom 10:9 is completely and utterly incompatible with the tribulation period. Thereby supporting a pre-trib rapture position as Rom 10:9 is completely applicable and true today, pre-trib.

 

[joestue]

This makes sense. I agree with most of it.

Now you just need to be intellectually honest and agree with me.

Clearly state that... Rom 10:9 is completely and utterly incompatible with the tribulation period. Thereby supporting a pre-trib rapture position as Rom 10:9 is completely applicable and true today, pre-trib.

Rom 10:9 has nothing to do with a rapture.

Its just setting the lowest possible bar for who Jesus will forgive sins on the day of judgement

 

[joestue]

Rom 10:9 has nothing to do with a rapture.

Its just setting the lowest possible bar for who Jesus will forgive sins on the day of judgement

As james says, even the demons believe.

 

[zeth4500]

So at the time of the mark of the beast you will have no doubt in your mind who God is

hmmm, idk about that, it says many will be DECEIVED so they will try to brandish it as really anything, the trump code, the god code, the buddha code, the whatever code. the free McChicken code. donut discount code lol
the goyslop code.
we will however see right through it, because we doubt anything they say or do.

Rom 10:9

if the scripture says otherwise in many other examples then its most likely that the odd one is to be read deeper into rather than taking it directly as written. anyhow, it is pointless to disagree with people or argue people who disagree, because we have each settled, you can give things to think of but it will probably not change so stop wasting time and prepare for whats coming, oh wait ... well i believe something is coming we must survive. i guess it is a quite important thing to get settled

As james says, even the demons believe.

offf thats a deadly curveball, guess they will be saved too then haha.

at least those of us who believe there are things coming, we must CEASE VANITY and work to prepare.

 

[KingJ]

if the scripture says otherwise in many other examples then its most likely that the odd one is to be read deeper into rather than taking it directly as written. anyhow, it is pointless to disagree with people or argue people who disagree, because we have each settled, you can give things to think of but it will probably not change so stop wasting time and prepare for whats coming, oh wait ... well i believe something is coming we must survive. i guess it is a quite important thing to get settled

On some topics we can agree to disagree. People can hold to their personal beliefs. But not on all.

If it can be proven that a belief incriminates God, as my OP does with a non pre-trib rapture belief, holding to it would make you a false teacher.

Nobody should want to be a false teacher. Imagine how terrifying it will be for you on that day that you find yourself standing all alone before God of the universe.

Thread 'Christians Hate Correction - Why So Many Resist Re-Examining Doctrine'

May 6, 2026

Recently I have found myself in numerous disagreements with older Christians. Believers who, by experience and years in the faith, should know Scripture better than I do. In these discussions I try to narrow the debate to the core doctrinal issue and show clearly when a belief misrepresents God’s character. My position is simple: if a doctrine incriminates God’s righteousness, justice, impartiality, or goodness, then that doctrine is false, regardless of how old or popular it may be.

Yet instead of engaging the substance of the argument through careful scriptural reasoning, many resort to...

• KingJ
• Replies: 12
• Forum: Bible Study

 

[joestue]

offf thats a deadly curveball, guess they will be saved too then haha.

at least those of us who believe there are things coming, we must CEASE VANITY and work to prepare.

14 years ago i met a crazy woman at church who reminds me of KingJ in some ways.

She had well over a thousand foot notes in her bible connecting all the verses together that "GOD" showed her that Jesus will return born of a virgin again, be raptured with the church at 3.5 years, taught of God for 3.5 years and then return to earth at the age of 7 to rule over the nations with an iron rod.

only problem being its not a new idea. about 1700 years ago there was a cult that believed Jesus would return, and be crucified again, the second time to redeem the demons.

 

[KingJ]

Rom 10:9 has nothing to do with a rapture.

Its just setting the lowest possible bar for who Jesus will forgive sins on the day of judgement

As james says, even the demons believe.

Joe, Rom 10:9 is a lot more than 'demons who believe'.

In order to be able to confess and believe that Jesus is Lord and was raised from the dead, you need to be given a revelation of Jesus from the Holy Spirit 1 Cor 12:3. This only happens if you open the door to Jesus by repenting of your sins Luke 5:32, Rev 3:20 and passing God's judgement of heart and mind Jer 17:9-11.

1 Cor 12:3 Therefore I want you to know that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus be cursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit

Luke 5:32 I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Rev 3:20 Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with that person, and they with me.

You say it has nothing to do with the rapture. But I have explained why it is incompatible with a tribulation period numerous times now.

Rom 10:9 says that if you have saving faith (the ability to believe that Jesus is Lord and was raised from the dead) you will be saved. Yet Rev 14:9-10 says that in the tribulation anyone who has the mark of the beast is beyond hope and Rev 2:10 that unless you endure ten days for torment and death, you will not receive a crown. Thereby making Rom 10:9 completely and utterly incompatible with a tribulation period. This is like a 'duh' , 1 + 1 = 2 fact.

Rom 10:9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Rev 14:9-10 A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives its mark on their forehead or on their hand, 10 ;they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb.

Rev 2:10 Do not be afraid of what you are about to suffer. I tell you, the devil will put some of you in prison to test you, and you will suffer persecution for ten days. Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you life as your victor’s crown.

Please try post better rebuttals. Deal directly with these points made. You make statements that suggest you are not reading or trying to grasp the points that are being made. Aka trolling.

 

[KingJ]

if the scripture says otherwise in many other examples then its most likely that the odd one is to be read deeper into rather than taking it directly as written. anyhow, it is pointless to disagree with people or argue people who disagree, because we have each settled, you can give things to think of but it will probably not change so stop wasting time and prepare for whats coming, oh wait ... well i believe something is coming we must survive. i guess it is a quite important thing to get settled

I take it you did not properly read the OP?

You argue that we must get ready for suffering. Pre-trib believers do not believe we escape suffering. Christians have seldom escaped suffering at the hands of wicked people. There will be a lot of suffering before the tribulation. But the actual foretold seven year / great tribulation period, well this is not a period of suffering at the hands of only wicked people. It is suffering at the hands of the devil and God. Therefore it would be a case of God abandoning His people.

You say that Rom 10:9 is the odd one out and must be re-interpreted. It is not that kind of scripture though. Sure there are cases where a scripture or passage needs to consider others, but some are stand alone verses. Like a law. The speed limit is 60 mph. Full stop. That is how Rom 10:9 reads. Believe that Jesus was raised from the dead and is Lord, and you will be saved. Full stop. Rev 14:9-11 and Rev 2:10 are direct contradictions to that claim. The solution is not to amend Rom 10:9 but rather to try and grasp why it is the case.

If you are coming unstuck with Rom 10:9, which is understandable as it has being the Christian / salvation norm for the last 2,000 years, lets rather look at another example.

Would you say that an event where one is taken and another left behind Matt 24:40-41 is the same event where every eye will see Jesus and kneel Rev 1:7 Phil 2:10-11?