Tis the HolySpirit I depend on for what is right and what is wrong. Not a list of do's and don'ts on paper.
2Corinthians chapter 3 is a very good read on the subject.
Proper place of the Law
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Tis the HolySpirit I depend on for what is right and what is wrong. Not a list of do's and don'ts on paper.
2Corinthians chapter 3 is a very good read on the subject.
2Cor 3 deals with the inability of the law carved in stone to bring life whereas the Spirit enables life to come from same. Stone tablets could not aid the people in their struggle with sin.
Idolatry, blaspheme, adultery, murder, theft etc. remain sinful to Christians and the Holy Spirit enables/helps them to overcome where tablets of stone could not. The interesting thing about the moral laws, as described in the OT, is how Jesus increased their scope to include the spirit/intention.
Mat 5:19-20 NKJV Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. (20) For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 5:21-22 NKJV "You have heard that it was said to those of old, 'YOU SHALL NOT MURDER, and whoever murders will be in danger of the judgment.' (22) But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, 'Raca!' shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, 'You fool!' shall be in danger of hell fire.
Mat 5:27-28 NKJV "You have heard that it was said to those of old, 'YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY.' (28) But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.
Mat 12:12 NKJV Of how much more value then is a man than a sheep? Therefore it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath."
As long as the Holy Spirit is guiding a believer they will know their sin and come to repentance. That is unless by continual wrong doing, and ignoring the Spirit, the person hardens their heart/sears their conscience.
Rom 8:6-10 NKJV For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. (7) Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. (8) So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God. (9) But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. (10) And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
brakelite
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The Bible makes it clear that there are many spirits contending for our attention. Paul says that we are to test the spirits to make sure that what we hear is from God. How are we to do that? Is it not that we ought to compare what the spirit is saying with the written word? That is what Jesus did. When He was tempted He didn't rely on any spirit, not even the Holy Spirit, but resisted temptation through the written law. Therefore if the spirit says "its ok to admire that young girl in her short skirt so long as I don't touch" (devils always talk to us in the first person, "I" that we do not recognise that the voice is not our own) you can then reply, "no it isn't, because such open action may lead to lust and my Lord said that lust is as adultery" so you avoid the trap.
However, there are harder issues than that. Issues of right and wrong that are not so clear cut. These issues we cannot rely on the spirit nor can we trust in just a cursory read of the scriptures; we must study to show ourselves approved. We must study with an open mind and heart willing to receive the whole counsel of God. This study must not be undertaken with preconceived ideas, else we will only search out those scriptures which support our thinking. The whole word of God must be taken into account, precept upon precept, line upon line, here a little there a little.
There are many doctrines within Christianity that differ from church to church; denomination to denomination; independent to independent. And all those differences would be utterly expunged from the Christian faith if we studied our Bibles without consideration to tradition, what we were taught previously in church, and what we think is right by the 'spirit' we claim to be listening to.
That is the Protestant way. The scriptures form the basis of our understanding doctrine, while the Holy Spirit directs our understanding of what is written. The Holy Spirit and the word will never disagree.
There are two predominant wrong ways. There is the Roman Catholic way where the Catholic wouldn't dream of studying scripture to learn doctrine, that is the role of the church. The Catholic studies scripture to be made holy. If the church says 'white' and the Bible says 'black' the good Catholic will believe the church every time.
The other error is to allow our conscience to over-ride what we read. Not every spirit we are listening to is holy.
Jari, I am failing miserably at helping you to see the simple. The plain truth is that the Law can be in full effect and binding upon the Jew even though it is not the standard by which he goes by for righteousness. Jesus is that standard to the believing Jew.
For Example: Before Christ came the Jew made sure that he didn't have sex with someone who was not his wife. According to the Law he was righteous. This same Jew could look upon women and lust after them and not be convicted by the law.
After Christ came the Jew who behaved that way had his sin exposed. This is why the Law made nothing perfect. But the bringing in of a better covenant did.
That said, us being under Christ and not the Law have to adhere to the latter understanding that Christ gave about sin which is much stricter than the original law. In this respect Aqua is correct.
The question becomes, is the rest of the Law binding upon those who once entered into that covenant relationship with God? It is not upon the Gentiles. That is why I believe it is important to understand the distinction made when Paul says that it is "the end of the law" but adds "for righteousness". My question has always been do they still have to abide by laws like....If thou buy an Hebrew servant, six years he shall serve: and in the seventh he shall go out free for nothing. 3If he came in by himself, he shall go out by himself: if he were married, then his wife shall go out with him.
Not for righteousness sake but for the sake that he bears the seal of the covenant and has confirmed it. The scripture says it cannot be disannuled. Though there be a change to the law due to the change in the priesthood.
that's what I said too.
No.
They don't have to and they shouldn't.
Because Christ is end of the law, for righteusness. And what Paul actually means is that there is no law anymore for you to obey when you believe in Christ.
We can look to the next verse to see this better what Paul means:
Rom 10:4-5 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
(5) For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.
So, Christ brings righteousness and law brings righteousness .
The Law would do this:
Rom 10:5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.
But Christ does it this way:
Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
I hope we understand each other.
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JonahofAkron
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I agree with this post, but elsewhere it seems you blatantly oppose what you've posted here.
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JonahofAkron
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The word used in this statement as "end" is better understood to be "goal". If you look at the phrase now it would be "Messiah is the goal of the Law for righteousness". In the context of our righteousness, this has more impact and meaning and doesn't relegate something that God designed to be "Holy, Just, and Good" to trash can status.
Let's hypothetically say that God got rid of the Law. What would be the new standard of righteousness? You would have to say there is none-Messiah's righteousness is only measurable by Torah and cannot be understood outside of it. As for us, if we simply claimed to live like Messiah, that in itself is a law based system as He continually asks us to follow His commands. To say there is no more Law is to say that sin is ok.
Righteousness never saved anyone...I'm not sure what your comparison is here. Grace has only ever been what allowed for salvation. Justification comes before righteousness. Someone believes and then acts accordingly.
I think Paul was saying that Christ really ends the law and not adds to it.
Rom 7:1-6 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth? (2) For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband. (3) So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man. (4) Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God. (5) For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death. (6) But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
See also: Rom 4:13 - 16
Having no law does not mean to say sin is ok. It just means there's no law. Think about road that has speed limit of 80mph, thats a law. Think about road with no speed limit? How fast your going to drive? As fast as you can, as long as its safe. And if you understanding its not safe to drive over 80 even there is no law then you drive about that speed.
Having no law does not mean not having to obey commandments either. But having no law removes the condemnation part.
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Go back and read what led Jesus out into the wilderness, (hint) it wasn't the scriptures.
I'm not sure where. You'll need to quote the thread/posts "elsewhere" so I can see.
I love when you bring up a point. You send me digging into the Greek again Brother! You say 'better' understood. I went and looked and came back with the idea that it was 'also' understood as 'goal'. I think you meant for this particular verse when saying 'better' though. That would change the whole understanding of the verse for sure! Its meaning would be that Christ is the intended end of the law and that keeping the law would make one like Christ. You address that point next.
Very interesting perspective, Jonah. I think saying 'trash can status' is to misinterpret what we who believe otherwise are saying happened to the law. The law is holy, just and good as scripture clearly states. There is an abundance of 'light' in the law. People were enlightened of their sin by it. The opposing belief is that Jesus is a brighter light than the law. Just as if you were to have a car shine its bright lights at you on a dark night, you are blinded. But if that same car shed its light during the day it doesn't effect your ability to see as there is a brighter light available to see by. Consider Jesus' coming. It is stated that the Sun will darken and the moon will no longer send its light. Could it be that a brighter light will be making the others appear dim?
That said, does the context of Romans 10 allow for the word 'end' to mean 'goal'? Paul is worried about Israels salvation. He says they are ignorant of God's righteousness. That they are trying to establish there own. So we have 2 righteousness spoken of here, Gods and theirs. This is what precedes our verse with 'end' or 'goal'.
For Christ is the goal of the law for righteousness to everyone that believeth.
For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone that believeth.
Afterword, we have the statement about the righteousness which is in the law as opposed to the righteousness of faith. 2 other ways of describing the above mentioned righteousness.
God's righteousness is of faith
their righteousness is of works (of the law)
Then to say that the 'goal' of the law was attaining to the righteousness of God since that intended end is to become like Christ which is the righteousness of God, is to ruin the point of Pauls concern for Israels salvation because they sought righteousness through the law being ignorant of Christ who is God's righteousness. Which things are hard to understand.
Another thought provoker. Here, I agree with you somewhat. I just think you have it backwards. The law doesn't identify Jesus as righteous. Jesus confirms the righteousness that is in the law plus much more as righteous. The law needed Jesus to explain it to others properly. So they might see the law in its true light.
No? Why did God raise Jesus from the dead, if not because he was righteous?
Consider the fact that Jesus needed to be saved from death Heb 5:7. And that he is the author of our faith. You either have to believe that Jesus was saved by following the law that God made which is 'salvation by works of the law' or that he was saved by faith in God by believing everything God said and his works justifying his faith. The awesome thing God did to defeat death was to insert his sinless son into the middle of human history where he would be affected by death even though he never sinned. Hence, why even Jesus needed a savior who, is the Father. Not for his own sin but for the sin of the whole world. Gods ways are past finding out...you gotta love it.
Am I in error?
Gary
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brakelite
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Your original assertion was that you trust in the Holy Spirit to tell you the difference between right and wrong, (not dos and donts written on paper). I agree with that but only up to a point. Whatever S(s)pirit we are listening to must be in accordance to the written word. The written word in fact is the standard by which we must live, not 'impressions' from the spirit.
Yes, Jesus was led into the wilderness by the Holy Spirit. That fact however doesn't support your argument in trusting the spirit over the word for moral guidance.
God requires that we trust His word above all else. His word first, the Holy Spirit second, teachings of the church third, all subject to God's written word.
1 Timothy 4:1 ¶ Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;.....
11 Timothy 3:13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.
14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;
15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
Isa 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.
2Ch 20:20 And they rose early in the morning, and went forth into the wilderness of Tekoa: and as they went forth, Jehoshaphat stood and said, Hear me, O Judah, and ye inhabitants of Jerusalem; Believe in the LORD your God, so shall ye be established; believe his prophets, so shall ye prosper
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We use different words to say the same thing, yet you ask if I am sinless?
He was sinless that means righteous. He was raised from the dead because he was righteous. We all have the same hope. We put on Christ and walk in his righteousness. His blood washes away our stains. We are reconciled unto God and having been 'declared' righteous, though we were not always so, we are raised from the dead, immortal, incorruptible, everlasting and ever to be with the one we love in spirit and in truth.
Those who love the light, become the light. The rest continue in darkness and die the death. Period.
As always in the Love of Christ with respect to his shed blood for us,
Gary
brakelite
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“Ye have heard of the...end of the Lord...” James 5:11. This does not mean that the Lord has disappeared. The verse continues, “...the end of the Lord; that the Lord is very pitiful, and of tender mercy.” Clearly “the end of the Lord” means the goal or purpose of the Lord (cf. 1 Pet 1:9; 1 Tim 1:5). Likewise the end of the law means the goal or purpose of the law. The purpose of the law is to direct us to Christ for salvation.
Please, by all means, explain the whole context of the verse in question using 'goal' without destroying its meaning.
Now I see things much differently, first off, I find very little scriptural support for the scriptures to be our guide in the new covenant but I do find many, many scriptures which encourage and establish that we are to be led by HolySpirit.
3 The gatekeeper opens the gate for him, and the sheep recognize his voice and come to him. He calls his own sheep by name and leads them out.4 After he has gathered his own flock, he walks ahead of them, and they follow him because they know his voice.5 They won’t follow a stranger; they will run from him because they don’t know his voice.”
John 10:3-5 (NLT)
"He is the Holy Spirit, who leads into all truth."
John 14:17 (NLT)
and
12 “There is so much more I want to tell you, but you can’t bear it now.13 When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own but will tell you what he has heard. He will tell you about the future.14 He will bring me glory by telling you whatever he receives from me.
John 16:12-14 (NLT)
and
6 He has enabled us to be ministers of his new covenant. This is a covenant not of written laws, but of the Spirit. The old written covenant ends in death; but under the new covenant, the Spirit gives life.
2 Cor 3:6 (NLT)
16 So I say, let the Holy Spirit guide your lives. Then you won’t be doing what your sinful nature craves.17 The sinful nature wants to do evil, which is just the opposite of what the Spirit wants. And the Spirit gives us desires that are the opposite of what the sinful nature desires. These two forces are constantly fighting each other, so you are not free to carry out your good intentions.18 But when you are directed by the Spirit, you are not under obligation to the law of Moses.
Gal 5:16-18 (NLT)
and
Since we are living by the Spirit, let us follow the Spirit’s leading in every part of our lives.
Gal 5:25 (NLT)
and
11 “Anyone with ears to hear must listen to the Spirit and understand what he is saying to the churches.
Rev 2:11 (NLT)
17 “Anyone with ears to hear must listen to the Spirit and understand what he is saying to the churches.
Rev 2:17 (NLT)
29 “Anyone with ears to hear must listen to the Spirit and understand what he is saying to the churches.
Rev 2:29 (NLT)
6 “Anyone with ears to hear must listen to the Spirit and understand what he is saying to the churches.
Rev 3:6 (NLT)
13 “Anyone with ears to hear must listen to the Spirit and understand what he is saying to the churches.
Rev 3:13 (NLT)
22 “Anyone with ears to hear must listen to the Spirit and understand what he is saying to the churches.”
Rev 3:22 (NLT)
Now concerning deceiving spirits, HolySpirit has given us spiritual gifts of which one is the discerning of spirits.
Obviously HolySpirit can and does use the scriptures to confirm things but the scriptures alone and void of HolySpirit's guidance are only ammunition for the enemy to deceive us.
Now as far as the ten commandments are concerned why should a true believer in Christ need to see them written on stone or paper if they are written on our hearts by Father?
Last, as far as trusting in God's word, you put that as a first priority and I assume you mean the scriptures when you refer to "God's word".
The problem with this paradigm is that those who cannot read or do not have a copy of the scriptures available to them would suffer serious spiritual deficiencies.
The first priority should be God's Word which is Christ Jesus, then HolySpirit and then the scriptures.
Note I am not against the scriptures, and am very glad that we have them but the textbook without the teacher is of little use in my opinion.
If our walk is a spiritual one then it must be by following the Spirit, if it is attempted by following written instructions from others than it is merely virtual and lacking the reality of intimacy.
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2 Tim 3:15 - had it not been for the scriptures and taking them in daily I would not have salvation.
Did Jesus use the Holy Spirit or the written scriptures to fend off temptation? What did Jesus do for the first 30 years while he waited the for the indwelling of the Holy Spirit? Were the scriptures only ammunition for the enemy to deceive him?
Gods word comes in audible form from other people. Those who cannot read or do not have a bible must be careful not to let one word drop.
There is no difference between the scriptures, word of God and Christ. The scriptures are the mind of Christ that became flesh.
Better revisit that opinion. Hebrews chapter 4.
Jon 6:63 - I agree we shall follow the spirit and not written instructions from others, you seem to misunderstand that the scriptures are written instructions for us to follow by the Holy Spirit. 2 Pe 1:16-21
Peace, Love and the understanding of Christ fill your life,
Gary
Do you believe you must become "holy" inorder to enter heaven? If so why did thief on the cross get saved?
Can I also ask a question, do you believe in Holy spirit fullness? have you been filled with the Holy spirit?
thanks for your time
Got a couple of questions for you Gary.
Have you been baptized in HolySpirit since you believed in Christ?
Do any of the 9 spiritual gifts mentioned in 1 Cor. 12 function through you?
