Proper place of the Law

[gdemoss]

Do you believe you must become "holy" inorder to enter heaven? If so why did thief on the cross get saved?

ho·ly/ˈhōlē/
Adjective:
Dedicated or consecrated to God or a religious purpose; sacred: "the Holy Bible"; "the holy month of Ramadan".
(of a person) Devoted to the service of God: "saints and holy men".

How are you defining holy? Did you realize that every time you see the word 'saint' in the bible it is the word 'holy'. Being holy is about being separated unto God. Are you holy, Jari?

Can I also ask a question, do you believe in Holy spirit fullness? have you been filled with the Holy spirit?

Jari, I am not sure what 'you' mean by this as I do not understand how you understand the filling of the Holy Spirit. Can you please define exactly what you mean? Can you use scripture that may help me to understand how you are asking your question?

Take care,

Gary

Got a couple of questions for you Gary.

I'll do my best.

Have you been baptized in HolySpirit since you believed in Christ?

These types of questions are difficult to answer without possibly causing confusion for the inquisitor. Do we both understand 'baptized in Holy Spirit' the same way? If I simply said yes it may not be saying yes to what you actually mean. Maybe you can be more descriptive and include biblical examples of what you mean, so I can better understand the question.

Do any of the 9 spiritual gifts mentioned in 1 Cor. 12 function through you?

Can you define the gifts mentioned in 1 Cor. 12 using scripture to show how each manifests itself in the Christian so that I may have a better idea of exactly what you are asking?

word of wisdom - Need biblical definition
word of knowledge - Need biblical definition
faith - How does this differ from faith given by God revealing Jesus is Christ?
healing - Think this one is clear.
working of miracles - Think this one is clear.
prophecy - Need biblical definition
discerning of spirits - Need biblical definition
tongues - This one is clear.
interpretation of tongues: This one is clear.

Of the previous list, the ones that I wrote that they are clear, they have never manifested themselves within me. Of the other, I am not quite sure. The bible hasn't been specifically clear in defining these gifts. I have experienced revelation of knowledge in the form of instant understanding granted without study or musing over information. I have found myself increasingly more sensitive to receiving of Wisdom at a much faster rate of growth than at any other time in my walk with Christ.

I hope this suffices,

Gary

 

[jiggyfly]

ho·ly/ˈhōlē/
Adjective:
Dedicated or consecrated to God or a religious purpose; sacred: "the Holy Bible"; "the holy month of Ramadan".
(of a person) Devoted to the service of God: "saints and holy men".

How are you defining holy? Did you realize that every time you see the word 'saint' in the bible it is the word 'holy'. Being holy is about being separated unto God. Are you holy, Jari?



Jari, I am not sure what 'you' mean by this as I do not understand how you understand the filling of the Holy Spirit. Can you please define exactly what you mean? Can you use scripture that may help me to understand how you are asking your question?

Take care,

Gary



I'll do my best.



These types of questions are difficult to answer without possibly causing confusion for the inquisitor. Do we both understand 'baptized in Holy Spirit' the same way? If I simply said yes it may not be saying yes to what you actually mean. Maybe you can be more descriptive and include biblical examples of what you mean, so I can better understand the question.



Can you define the gifts mentioned in 1 Cor. 12 using scripture to show how each manifests itself in the Christian so that I may have a better idea of exactly what you are asking?

word of wisdom - Need biblical definition
word of knowledge - Need biblical definition
faith - How does this differ from faith given by God revealing Jesus is Christ?
healing - Think this one is clear.
working of miracles - Think this one is clear.
prophecy - Need biblical definition
discerning of spirits - Need biblical definition
tongues - This one is clear.
interpretation of tongues: This one is clear.

Of the previous list, the ones that I wrote that they are clear, they have never manifested themselves within me. Of the other, I am not quite sure. The bible hasn't been specifically clear in defining these gifts. I have experienced revelation of knowledge in the form of instant understanding granted without study or musing over information. I have found myself increasingly more sensitive to receiving of Wisdom at a much faster rate of growth than at any other time in my walk with Christ.

I hope this suffices,

Gary

Refer to Gifts of the HolySpirit thread in the Bible Study Hall forum, it has a sticky on it.

 

[gdemoss]

Refer to Gifts of the HolySpirit thread in the Bible Study Hall forum, it has a sticky on it.

Thanks, checking it out now.

 

[jari]

ho·ly/ˈhōlē/
Adjective:
Dedicated or consecrated to God or a religious purpose; sacred: "the Holy Bible"; "the holy month of Ramadan".
(of a person) Devoted to the service of God: "saints and holy men".

How are you defining holy? Did you realize that every time you see the word 'saint' in the bible it is the word 'holy'. Being holy is about being separated unto God. Are you holy, Jari?

you said this earlier:

Those who love the light, become the light. The rest continue in darkness and die the death. Period.

Now I dont know what you mean by that. maybe you mean you become child of God by walking in light? Maybe you mean you become justified by walking in light?
Whatever you mean my question is do you believe you must archieve salvation and retain salvation? Other than simply and solely believing for it. Do you beleive you must also grow or endure for salvation?

Jari, I am not sure what 'you' mean by this as I do not understand how you understand the filling of the Holy Spirit. Can you please define exactly what you mean? Can you use scripture that may help me to understand how you are asking your question?

Eph 5:18 And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;

 

[gdemoss]

you said this earlier:



Now I dont know what you mean by that. maybe you mean you become child of God by walking in light? Maybe you mean you become justified by walking in light?
Whatever you mean my question is do you believe you must archieve salvation and retain salvation? Other than simply and solely believing for it. Do you beleive you must also grow or endure for salvation?

As I read scripture more and more it becomes clearer to me what salvation is. Salvation is repenting and turning toward God as Father. Father in the sense of the word as God defines it and not men. As far as God is concerned, children are subject to their Father in all things concerning obedience forever. The Father is the one who decides what is good and what is evil. The children obey their Father by not partaking in that which is evil and clinging to that which is good. The children do not question the Father except it be for clarity for the purpose of a more perfect obedience as they accept what the Father has said to be true. The children have no desire to reason within themselves why something is good or evil, they just accept that the Father who said so is true.

No man has been born with God as his Father save Adam and Jesus. One was made the son of God the other begotten. One died as a result of disobeying the Father the other for obeying. The rest of us if we are to be saved must be born again into the family of God in full submission to the Father through the Son. This is walking in the light.

The Devil is also the father of many. They follow their father everywhere he goes. They cannot maintain truth of the scriptures but use them deceitfully to claim truth for their personal doctrines. They cannot cease from sin and this is a hallmark of their false teaching. They always leave room for sin to continue claiming to try to be like God through Christ but never achieving. They wait for God to finish his work in them after death. Unfortunately, there fathers work is to keep them enslaved to him and they perish in him. forever. This is walking in darkness.

Eph 5:18 And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;

Wine makes the heart merry. Being filled with the Spirit has a similar effect but without the drunkenness. This is what I experience when I am filled with the Spirit of God my Father.

 

[gdemoss]

Refer to Gifts of the HolySpirit thread in the Bible Study Hall forum, it has a sticky on it.

Thanks for the post. The things I read there conflict with the teachings of the Spirit that teaches me, who I believe to be the Holy Spirit of God that indwells me. If I am wrong, I am in big trouble. If I am right...

Please Sovereign God in Heaven I pray your truth will prevail.

Gary

 

[jari]

Hi Gary

As I read scripture more and more it becomes clearer to me what salvation is. Salvation is repenting and turning toward God as Father. Father in the sense of the word as God defines it and not men. As far as God is concerned, children are subject to their Father in all things concerning obedience forever. The Father is the one who decides what is good and what is evil. The children obey their Father by not partaking in that which is evil and clinging to that which is good. The children do not question the Father except it be for clarity for the purpose of a more perfect obedience as they accept what the Father has said to be true. The children have no desire to reason within themselves why something is good or evil, they just accept that the Father who said so is true.

Kinda interesting that you use father child example here saying we must obey. arent fathers only giving rules to keep us from harm? and still we are always fathers sons even we wouldnt be perfect and he loves us and we love Him.

where is grace in your example?

No man has been born with God as his Father save Adam and Jesus. One was made the son of God the other begotten. One died as a result of disobeying the Father the other for obeying. The rest of us if we are to be saved must be born again into the family of God in full submission to the Father through the Son. This is walking in the light.

you believe in point of born again? but you believe salvation can be lost though born again.

The Devil is also the father of many. They follow their father everywhere he goes. They cannot maintain truth of the scriptures but use them deceitfully to claim truth for their personal doctrines. They cannot cease from sin and this is a hallmark of their false teaching. They always leave room for sin to continue claiming to try to be like God through Christ but never achieving. They wait for God to finish his work in them after death. Unfortunately, there fathers work is to keep them enslaved to him and they perish in him. forever. This is walking in darkness.

so your saying you must become perfect to be saved?

i dont think scripture says anything like you described above.

nothing about having to archieve. or becoming finished "work" for salvation.

Wine makes the heart merry. Being filled with the Spirit has a similar effect but without the drunkenness. This is what I experience when I am filled with the Spirit of God my Father.

so its inside heart experienced thing?


God bless..

 

[gdemoss]

Hi Gary


Kinda interesting that you use father child example here saying we must obey. arent fathers only giving rules to keep us from harm? and still we are always fathers sons even we wouldnt be perfect and he loves us and we love Him.

Laws/Rules are made for the unrighteous.

where is grace in your example?

He allows you to turn back to him. You don't deserve that. That is grace. He provided an atonement for you sin through Christ. Although not mentioned above, everyone understands that part. That also is grace.

you believe in point of born again? but you believe salvation can be lost though born again.

You can be born again (a second time) You can die the second death. It is clear.

so your saying you must become perfect to be saved?

No, I said that your Father must be God not Satan to be saved. Even Peter sinned and remained a child of God.

i dont think scripture says anything like you described above.

I know.

nothing about having to archieve. or becoming finished "work" for salvation.

Finished work is being a son of God who has returned unto the Father and never leaves his father again to follow after Satan's ways. He has died to self (doing what is right in his own eyes) and lives unto God (doing what is right in Gods eyes). This in no way makes the statement that you cannot or will never sin. Please don't miss this point. You are merely a slave to righteousness in your own heart, a bond servant to Christ.

so its inside heart experienced thing?

My spirit in direct communion with Gods is how I could best describe it.

God bless..

Same to you,

Gary

 

[jari]

Hi Gary.

My spirit in direct communion with Gods is how I could best describe it.

so a heart thing?
or more of outward does that make sense?

You can be born again (a second time) You can die the second death. It is clear.

How is it so clear? If you become born again you are given Holy spirit and you become a new creation. How can this be undone? Does God take away the holy spirit? Scripture doesnt say He would.

Finished work is being a son of God who has returned unto the Father and never leaves his father again to follow after Satan's ways. He has died to self (doing what is right in his own eyes) and lives unto God (doing what is right in Gods eyes). This in no way makes the statement that you cannot or will never sin. Please don't miss this point. You are merely a slave to righteousness in your own heart, a bond servant to Christ.

how are you trusting grace if you believe you must make your self better person (Christ like) in order to be saved`? Doesnt God accept and save us just as we are?

And if there be, like there is, some change in order then God makes that.
And you'll become new creation.

 

[gdemoss]

Hi Gary.

so a heart thing?
or more of outward does that make sense?

Inward, heart.

How is it so clear? If you become born again you are given Holy spirit and you become a new creation. How can this be undone? Does God take away the holy spirit? Scripture doesnt say He would.

God took his Spirit from Saul. Death can undo anything. Temporal death destroys temporal life. Eternal death destroys eternal life. The Angels were only born once and those who fell will only die once. They were created eternal beings but ended up with a death sentence. Gods glory also left the temple, which is a picture of the Holy Spirit leaving the temple of God in which he dwelt. And finally, the Holy Spirit left Jesus to die alone upon the cross at Calvary. My God, why have you forsaken me?

how are you trusting grace if you believe you must make your self better person (Christ like) in order to be saved`? Doesnt God accept and save us just as we are?

You aren't making yourself a better person. You are returning to the former estate of man as son of God. There is a difference.

Time for bed, have a good one.

Gary

 

[Peace Seeker]

You can be born again (a second time) You can die the second death. It is clear.

Hi Gary,
What is your understanding of Ephesians 1:13-14 regarding our salvation?

"And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation.
When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

Can God take back His guaranteed deposit?

And what of 2 Timothy 2:13 ?
"if we are faithless, he will remain faithful, for he cannot disown himself". If we are grafted into the Vine we are of the body of Christ, and He cannot cut a part of Himself off.

Lastly, does the second death not refer to the ungodly, rather than to born-again Christians? So how can the second death touch a born-again believer?

Revelation 21:8
New International Version (NIV)

<sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV-31062">8</sup>the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”

 

[JonahofAkron]

Laws/Rules are made for the unrighteous.

Would you say that Messiah was righteous before or after He lived out "the rules/laws for the unrighteous"? Did someone need to stop living the Torah out once they were found to be righteous since they 'were there-at righteousness'?

He allows you to turn back to him. You don't deserve that. That is grace. He provided an atonement for you sin through Christ. Although not mentioned above, everyone understands that part. That also is grace.

And that's how it's always been. Hosea outlines the grace of God towards His people fairly easily.

No, I said that your Father must be God not Satan to be saved. Even Peter sinned and remained a child of God.

Was this before or after Messiah's DBR? How do you define sin now?

Finished work is being a son of God who has returned unto the Father and never leaves his father again to follow after Satan's ways. He has died to self (doing what is right in his own eyes) and lives unto God (doing what is right in Gods eyes). This in no way makes the statement that you cannot or will never sin. Please don't miss this point. You are merely a slave to righteousness in your own heart, a bond servant to Christ.

We have philosophized and spiritualized following Messiah so much that it's something the Apostles probably wouldn't recognize. You talk about living for God, but deny the importance of living out the commands because they are 'for the unrighteous'. Fortunately for us, Messiah "died for the unrighteous" especially seeing that Paul claimed that "NO ONE is righteous, not even one". The righteous lifestyle has always been Torah. I am not advocating legalism or salvation by works or any other thing I'm sure I'll be accused of; I just want the lifestyle that Messiah lived, the one He called us to, to be acknowledged as viable for all of us who call Him King.

My spirit in direct communion with Gods is how I could best describe it.

Is it?


I love your heart and the dialogues you engage in. You encourage me to follow Him better. Thank you.

 

[jari]

Hi Gary

God took his Spirit from Saul. Death can undo anything. Temporal death destroys temporal life. Eternal death destroys eternal life. The Angels were only born once and those who fell will only die once. They were created eternal beings but ended up with a death sentence. Gods glory also left the temple, which is a picture of the Holy Spirit leaving the temple of God in which he dwelt. And finally, the Holy Spirit left Jesus to die alone upon the cross at Calvary. My God, why have you forsaken me?

Saul was old testament person, who received Holy spirit just because he was chosen as king. What does that have to do us who receive it by faith?
it was very different for him and bible doesnt say Saul had any kind of in dwell of Holy spirit, it could have be in whole other sense.

And Jesus asked why God had forsaken Him because he took our punishment. Why would we undergo the same if we are forgiven?

And Jesus also says who believes in Him will never die meaning second death.

You aren't making yourself a better person. You are returning to the former estate of man as son of God. There is a difference.

Then your still making your current person an better one.

God bless

 

[gdemoss]

Hi Gary,
What is your understanding of Ephesians 1:13-14 regarding our salvation?

I speaks to the fact that God willing to show the earnest pledge of the upcoming redemption of that which is purchased, chose to give us his Holy Spirit to indwell us. Just as one who buys a home gives earnest money that is at stake to be lost if they back out of the deal.

"And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation.
When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

Can God take back His guaranteed deposit?

Yes, if we default on our end of the deal. We are being purchased with an 'if' clause. If the conditions on our end are not met then God has the right to revoke the his end of the deal. Now exactly what those conditions are is not in question to make this point. If you believe that the only condition is mental assent to the fact that Jesus died for sin then that is all you would need to do in order for the 'guarantee' to be upheld by God. In that case, if there were a reason you quit believing it then he could properly forgo the purchase and receive his earnest back.

And what of 2 Timothy 2:13 ?
"if we are faithless, he will remain faithful, for he cannot disown himself". If we are grafted into the Vine we are of the body of Christ, and He cannot cut a part of Himself off.

I shall include just a bit more of the context beginning with 11.

11 It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him:

First condition: We must be dead with in order to live with. See Rom 6:1-7

12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:

Second & Third conditions: We must suffer with in order to reign with, if we deny him, he denies us. This denying means to claim not to know as Peter did when he was tested.

13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

Fourth condition: If we have not faith, he remains faithful as he cannot deny who he is as the righteous and just judge of the universe.

14 Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers.

Paul simply states that these are undeniable facts that are not to be debated lest it ruin them that hear you speak.

15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Finally, Paul couples it all together telling Timothy to put himself on display to others as one who works hard, shamelessly handling the Word of God and others perceiving that God himself would approve of his work.

Lastly, does the second death not refer to the ungodly, rather than to born-again Christians?

You've never met an ungodly born again Christian? One who has come to believe in Christ yet still goes back dabbling over and over again in the things of the world? I have met droves. They seem to believe that it won't matter in the end if they continue to go back and forth vacillating between following and straying from Christ.

So how can the second death touch a born-again believer?

By breaking the covenant with God. If you believe that isn't possible then I suppose you are safe, unless of course you are wrong. Now is the time for us to get that figured out between us.

We ought to be tender to one another as we have been told that of all these things that were written for us, there are those that are hard to be understood. We are told as quoted above in the four conditions from the epistle to Timothy that there are actually conditions that need to be met. Let us be dead with, suffer with, believe in and not deny him in word or deed (Titus 1:16).

After all he has given us everything we need to accomplish this here and now on this earth while we are yet alive.

Let us follow him and learn to resist sin, unto blood, even unto death,

Gary

 

[gdemoss]

Saul was old testament person, who received Holy spirit just because he was chosen as king. What does that have to do us who receive it by faith?
it was very different for him and bible doesnt say Saul had any kind of in dwell of Holy spirit, it could have be in whole other sense.

Saul received the Spirit by faith as well as we. In the OT it wasn't given to everyone as you already know. But those who did receive it received it by faith. When God has put his Spirit upon man it is always for his purpose. Saul was to be better suited to rule the nation of Israel. If you notice the text it speaks of him being born again.

And the Spirit of the LORD will come upon thee, and thou shalt prophesy with them, and shalt be turned into another man.

And it was [so], that when he had turned his back to go from Samuel, God gave him another heart: and all those signs came to pass that day.

And Jesus asked why God had forsaken Him because he took our punishment.

What scripture that you read brought you to this conclusion?

I came to my conclusion based upon the fact that Jesus was merely a man when he walked upon the earth, as he came in the flesh. He was tempted in all points as all other men yet without sin. He received the Spirit just as we did. He also received much power along with the Spirit. When Jesus was nailed to the cross and became sin for us, God could no longer look upon him much less continue with him in Spirit. Therefore, he departed the temple as was picture in the prophets.

And Jesus also says who believes in Him will never die meaning second death.

I know. I had to ponder this problem when understanding what it means to believe. It is written, that all who believe in him will not be ashamed. Rom 6:21 when speaking about sin asks the question 'What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed?' He goes on to say that the end of those things is death. And in another place he says that the Philipians prayers coupled with the supply of Jesus Christ will turn to his salvation, as his earnest expectation and hope were that in nothing he would be ashamed. In conclusion to believe in Christ is to put on Christ and live in his Spirit and therefore not be ashamed before him at his coming since you are as he is. You then have boldness in the day of judgment which is one and the same.

Do not err my beloved brother.

Then your still making your current person an better one.

I posted something confusing when I said the following:

You aren't making yourself a better person. You are returning to the former estate of man as son of God. There is a difference.

A more complete thought would have been to say:

You aren't making yourself a better person. You are returning to the former estate of man as son of God, through the new birth. There is a difference.

A better one? No. One is put to death so that the other may live, they are not one in the same person. But it is as you say, a new creation. A new creation that can be touched of the second death. See the letters to the churches (believers indwelt by the Holy Spirit) in Revelation who are told that they must overcome or else be touched of the second death.

I will continue to work with you as long as you have honest questions doubting what I am saying. Let me know what you think.

Gary

 

[jari]

Hi Gary, we dont see things in same way but here's you a repply.

Saul received the Spirit by faith as well as we. In the OT it wasn't given to everyone as you already know. But those who did receive it received it by faith. When God has put his Spirit upon man it is always for his purpose. Saul was to be better suited to rule the nation of Israel. If you notice the text it speaks of him being born again.

And the Spirit of the LORD will come upon thee, and thou shalt prophesy with them, and shalt be turned into another man.

And it was [so], that when he had turned his back to go from Samuel, God gave him another heart: and all those signs came to pass that day.

It doesnt say Saul had any faith. He was picked by the people who pointed him as king. And it was not God's will there would be king in the first place. So God gave him holy spirit and new heart. But it doesnt say anything about his faith.

What scripture that you read brought you to this conclusion?

I came to my conclusion based upon the fact that Jesus was merely a man when he walked upon the earth, as he came in the flesh. He was tempted in all points as all other men yet without sin. He received the Spirit just as we did. He also received much power along with the Spirit. When Jesus was nailed to the cross and became sin for us, God could no longer look upon him much less continue with him in Spirit. Therefore, he departed the temple as was picture in the prophets.

this is what i was saying , he took the punishment on Him self, our sin, our punishment.

I know. I had to ponder this problem when understanding what it means to believe. It is written, that all who believe in him will not be ashamed. Rom 6:21 when speaking about sin asks the question 'What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed?' He goes on to say that the end of those things is death. And in another place he says that the Philipians prayers coupled with the supply of Jesus Christ will turn to his salvation, as his earnest expectation and hope were that in nothing he would be ashamed. In conclusion to believe in Christ is to put on Christ and live in his Spirit and therefore not be ashamed before him at his coming since you are as he is. You then have boldness in the day of judgment which is one and the same.

Bible doesnt say that by walking in spirit we have boldness, where did you read this? It says in John that if you fear you havent become perfect in Love.

I posted something confusing when I said the following:

You aren't making yourself a better person. You are returning to the former estate of man as son of God. There is a difference.

A more complete thought would have been to say:

You aren't making yourself a better person. You are returning to the former estate of man as son of God, through the new birth. There is a difference.

Its still the same. You dont believe in instant salvation through faith by being born again as God's child. You believe you become God's child by walking in light continually and if you stop you cease to be His child.

please correct me if I was wrong there, isnt that what you believe?

A better one? No. One is put to death so that the other may live, they are not one in the same person. But it is as you say, a new creation. A new creation that can be touched of the second death. See the letters to the churches (believers indwelt by the Holy Spirit) in Revelation who are told that they must overcome or else be touched of the second death.

I don't recall revelation saying anything about believers being touched by second death. Those who overcome wont be, that means those who are born again.

You thought that overcoming means something born again would have to do but no he already has if you ask me.
And revelations says how: "by the blood of Jesus"

 

[gdemoss]

It doesnt say Saul had any faith. He was picked by the people who pointed him as king. And it was not God's will there would be king in the first place. So God gave him holy spirit and new heart. But it doesnt say anything about his faith.

It says he was elected? Where? Jari, if you need the scripture to actually say the words "And Saul received the spirit by faith", your not going to find them. But if you can understand it through the things that are said within the context then you will see. Saul was told things. He had to believe them which is faith. If Saul had not believed Samuel then Saul would not be king, nor receive the spirit.

Bible doesnt say that by walking in spirit we have boldness, where did you read this?

Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.

Jesus walked in the spirit. We are as he is, one and the same walking in the spirit. Remember Rom 8:1 No condemnation to those who walk in the spirit. Means same thing. No Fear because of our works are right with God and he has put away our sin through the blood of Christ.

Its still the same. You dont believe in instant salvation through faith by being born again as God's child.

Salvation has many parts. This is only the beginning that you state here. It is what is initially accomplished. You become born OF THE SPIRIT. You must eat and drink spiritual food to stay alive lest ye die the second death.

I don't recall revelation saying anything about believers being touched by second death. Those who overcome wont be, that means those who are born again.

You Identify those that overcome as all who are born again. The scriptures do not. Therein lies your error. All who overcome are born again but all born again do not overcome, tragically some die the death.

You thought that overcoming means something born again would have to do but no he already has if you ask me.
And revelations says how: "by the blood of Jesus"

It is in the difference of the perception of what overcoming for this group of Christians in Revelation means. It speaks of being faithful unto death and not denying Christ in word or deed. Those who overcome by this method will not be hurt by the second death.

Did you go back and research when I brought up revelation? Or did you just reply?

Gary

 

[jari]

Hi Gary.

here's my view, backed up with scriptures.

It says he was elected? Where? Jari, if you need the scripture to actually say the words "And Saul received the spirit by faith", your not going to find them. But if you can understand it through the things that are said within the context then you will see. Saul was told things. He had to believe them which is faith. If Saul had not believed Samuel then Saul would not be king, nor receive the spirit.

It was all very simple to him. They pointed him out to be king. Interesting that he was given new heart and yet disobeyed God in the end. King David on the other hand was man after God's own heart and even his descants werent always perfect and godly God made promise to always have David's descants on the throne and so it was. And Jesus was called son of david too.

seems like Saul was just temporary king who was like not elected after faith but by men. David is the one with faith.

And in anycase taking some scripture from OT isnt very good to base doctrines on. Especially if it contradicts what NT says and NT says God has given the Holy spirit and it will stay.

Eph 1:13-14

Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.

Jesus walked in the spirit. We are as he is, one and the same walking in the spirit. Remember Rom 8:1 No condemnation to those who walk in the spirit. Means same thing. No Fear because of our works are right with God and he has put away our sin through the blood of Christ.

So Jesus blood isnt enough? we also need to walk in spirit?

doesnt make sense to me...

Practically Jesus didnt do anything for you then. to get closer to Heaven. If you still have to do it. and walk in spirit. and do those works you mention.

You forgot to read the next verse from 1 John:

"There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love."

And

"We love him, because he first loved us."

So all it talks about is love. Not walking after spirit to archieve this but love because He first loved us.

And if we try to earn God's favor that isnt right. Because we love because he first loved us.

so if theres anything to be done thats knowing God's love more and not try and please God so you may feel good about your self. Thats not the way it was meant to work. But our love should be because of God's love toward us.

Salvation has many parts. This is only the beginning that you state here. It is what is initially accomplished. You become born OF THE SPIRIT. You must eat and drink spiritual food to stay alive lest ye die the second death.

I disagree that salvation has many parts. Bible says you are saved.. not your partly saved.. or made the first step or anything like that.
Rather You have been sanctified and justified and glorified.
rom 8: 30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

You Identify those that overcome as all who are born again. The scriptures do not. Therein lies your error. All who overcome are born again but all born again do not overcome, tragically some die the death.

where does it say this?

I find these scriptures about overcoming:

1 John 4:4
Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

1 John 2:14
I have written unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I have written unto you, young men, because ye are strong, and the word of God abideth in you, and ye have overcome the wicked one.

Very powerful overcoming there.
By faith alone... And Holy spirit.

1 John 5:5
Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

We are talking about this verse right:

Revelation 2:11
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

This verse in revelations say how they overcome:

Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.


But you say how we actually must overcome, which differs from Rev 12:11 . It only says by the blood of the lamb. You say something else.....

It is in the difference of the perception of what overcoming for this group of Christians in Revelation means. It speaks of being faithful unto death and not denying Christ in word or deed. Those who overcome by this method will not be hurt by the second death.

Only by the blood of the lamb I understood. can you show scripture where born again needs to do something else than believe? To be saved?
especially concerning overcoming. I think overcoming is believing and becoming born again.

 

[RJ]

Saul received the Spirit by faith as well as we. In the OT it wasn't given to everyone as you already know. But those who did receive it received it by faith. When God has put his Spirit upon man it is always for his purpose. Saul was to be better suited to rule the nation of Israel. If you notice the text it speaks of him being born again.

And the Spirit of the LORD will come upon thee, and thou shalt prophesy with them, and shalt be turned into another man.

And it was [so], that when he had turned his back to go from Samuel, God gave him another heart: and all those signs came to pass that day.



What scripture that you read brought you to this conclusion?

I came to my conclusion based upon the fact that Jesus was merely a man when he walked upon the earth, as he came in the flesh. He was tempted in all points as all other men yet without sin. He received the Spirit just as we did. He also received much power along with the Spirit. When Jesus was nailed to the cross and became sin for us, God could no longer look upon him much less continue with him in Spirit. Therefore, he departed the temple as was picture in the prophets.




I know. I had to ponder this problem when understanding what it means to believe. It is written, that all who believe in him will not be ashamed. Rom 6:21 when speaking about sin asks the question 'What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed?' He goes on to say that the end of those things is death. And in another place he says that the Philipians prayers coupled with the supply of Jesus Christ will turn to his salvation, as his earnest expectation and hope were that in nothing he would be ashamed. In conclusion to believe in Christ is to put on Christ and live in his Spirit and therefore not be ashamed before him at his coming since you are as he is. You then have boldness in the day of judgment which is one and the same.

Do not err my beloved brother.



I posted something confusing when I said the following:

You aren't making yourself a better person. You are returning to the former estate of man as son of God. There is a difference.

A more complete thought would have been to say:

You aren't making yourself a better person. You are returning to the former estate of man as son of God, through the new birth. There is a difference.

A better one? No. One is put to death so that the other may live, they are not one in the same person. But it is as you say, a new creation. A new creation that can be touched of the second death. See the letters to the churches (believers indwelt by the Holy Spirit) in Revelation who are told that they must overcome or else be touched of the second death.

I will continue to work with you as long as you have honest questions doubting what I am saying. Let me know what you think.

Gary

You've never met an ungodly born again Christian? One who has come to believe in Christ yet still goes back dabbling over and over again in the things of the world? I have met droves. They seem to believe that it won't matter in the end if they continue to go back and forth vacillating between following and straying from Christ
This is the same old untruth that is constantly repeated against OSAS.
So you have "met droves"...must be the people you hangout with! With my 40 some odd years of being involved with the word of God, I have yet to meet one person that was truly "Born Again" act as you say. You insult all "Born Again " Christians!

I will continue to work with you as long as you have honest questions doubting what I am saying. Let me know what you think.
There you go again, treating someone else like your the Rabbi and they are the student. I believe pride was the original sin!

 

[gdemoss]

Was Jesus Proud? He taught others. He told me to go out into the world and teach others. Specifically my brethren. I am open to learning the truth from others in the form of teaching as there are those that are here who have taught me much. I need not name them. Yet you are offended in me. I know that you do not believe what I say. But you say and do not while I say and do. Jesus taught to beware the leaven of the Pharisees which is hypocrisy. I teach the same.

Those who have ears to hear let them hear. Do good to those who are your accusers, for those who are willing to live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution. All heresy is rooted in the flesh and allowing the flesh to continue to reap its lustful desires. They have changed the truth of God into a lie and turned Christ into a call to lasciviousness. The Chant is 'we love Christ' while the works they do are abominable. You shall know the false teachers by the food they are feeding you. When you eat their fruit do you grow in the likeness of Christ?

Show me something I have taught that encouraged one person to commit sin. Show me something I have taught that did not point toward Christ as the righteousness of God and as rule to walk by in all that you do. Yet my good is evil spoken of because it sheds light on the darkness of heresy. God left no excuse for sin. He gives all a way out of temptation when present. And those who continue to do so are without excuse although they have an advocate with the Father in heaven. May he forgive them.

When Peter spoke at Pentecost, the Holy Ghost spoke through him. Same with Stephen who was dragged out and killed. The odds are against the one bringing the truth, as narrow is the way and few there be that find it. The path is lined on both sides...men with stones in hand trying to find a reason to throw them.

The best we can do is pray for them, Father forgive them for they know not what they do.

Gary

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