Proper place of the Law

[Christ4Ever]

Heart

There is a need of the law for us otherwise we would have no idea what sin is. Romans 3:20. Without this necessary knowledge we would not be able to properly identify what sin is. Romans 7:7

The world is not so easy that without this knowledge of the law, that we could not be subverted by the deceit in it. Demons and their philosophies are dealt with by us daily. Colossians 2:8 Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ.

Grave deception is in the world and is evident to those who know the law. What I’m saying is that though we do not fall under the law, it does not preclude us needing to have the knowledge of it. For those who would say that the Holy Spirit tells me right from wrong and I don’t need the law, are just deceiving themselves or could just as easily be justifying behavior that goes contrary to Scripture. But let us say that for individuals who say this believing themselves enlightened and not deceived. I would then ask now that we are in Christ Jesus, why the need for scripture at all when we have the Holy Spirit who will provide us the very words necessary to speak? Mark 13:11 But when they shall lead [you], and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.

Hopefully, there are none out there like that. To set aside scripture or those who easily will and do butcher it to accept one part and not the other is either a deceiver or deceived.

Following of the law is not necessary for Salvation, which we should all be able to agree with as Christians. However, knowledge of the law does become necessary as I’ve stated before, because it is part of the Scriptures and is necessary if we are to arm ourselves against darkness which we as believers battle daily against regardless if we’re aware of it or not. We must be prepared. Ephesians 6:11-18

2 Peter 3:18 But grow in grace, and [in] the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him [be] glory both now and forever. Amen.

Remember who approved of Scripture and who the author is! All scripture is God breathed, blessed be His Name.
2 Timothy 3:16

The victory is won, but the battles continue.
Be an Overcomer!
YBIC
C4E

 

[JonahofAkron]

Hi JonahofAkron



I wasnt saying there no need for law. But law is only put for lawbreaker. And If we are carried by spirit we are not under law.

It defines sin. If you don't know them, you don't know when you are sinning. Do you still sin?

Because the spirit it self is lawful....
but this topic was really about law written in our hearts so we know right and wrongs without looking into torah.

Right and wrong are defined by the Father through His Spirit in the Torah. They are defined further in other places, but the beginning of the definitions start in Torah. That's how it was designed.

Gal 5:22-23 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, (23) Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

Why would a law that God created be against anything of the Spirit? I think you are trying to define a different 'law' with Torah. They are not the same. The law of sin seems more apt.

Let me make another example why I think we need the nessary law written in our hearts, the pharisees did well on tithin, Jesus says, but they did not do Mercy and justice.

Mat 23:23-24 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
(24) Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.

So if we look into the law maybe we start doing things of less priority and forgetting what the law was about... Love...

Not necessarily. Any person in the Hebrew Scriptures followed Torah; were they all legalists?

And of course like i said earlier forbidding eating Pork isnt nessary law for us.

Show me where this is written.

So what does it mean God wrote His law in our hearts?

I think it means the Holy spirit was given us so that we'd have his law directly in our hearts via the Holy spirit.

I agree. Define His Law. Anytime I read about the New Covenant, the laws discussed are the Torah.

 

[jari]

Hi JonahofAkron

It defines sin. If you don't know them, you don't know when you are sinning. Do you still sin?

Right and wrong are defined by the Father through His Spirit in the Torah. They are defined further in other places, but the beginning of the definitions start in Torah. That's how it was designed.

Why would a law that God created be against anything of the Spirit? I think you are trying to define a different 'law' with Torah. They are not the same. The law of sin seems more apt.

Not necessarily. Any person in the Hebrew Scriptures followed Torah; were they all legalists?
Show me where this is written.

I agree. Define His Law. Anytime I read about the New Covenant, the laws discussed are the Torah.

God made the new coveant so that we would be free from the laws of Old testament (Torah).

About the foods:

Acts 10-15
9On the morrow, as they went on their journey, and drew nigh unto the city, Peter went up upon the housetop to pray about the sixth hour:

10And he became very hungry, and would have eaten: but while they made ready, he fell into a trance,

11And saw heaven opened, and a certain vessel descending upon him, as it had been a great sheet knit at the four corners, and let down to the earth:

12Wherein were all manner of fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air.

13And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; kill, and eat.

14But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean.

15And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.


so its all permissable : 1 Corinthians 10:23

and i think its shown in this thread a couple of times that Jesus really doesnt give us the law of old testament...


God bless

 

[gdemoss]

Hi Gary

Because salvation is instant

If salvation is instant then explain this.

Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory: 9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls. 1 Pe 1:8-9

 

[JonahofAkron]

Hi JonahofAkron



God made the new coveant so that we would be free from the laws of Old testament (Torah).

About the foods:

Acts 10-15
9On the morrow, as they went on their journey, and drew nigh unto the city, Peter went up upon the housetop to pray about the sixth hour:

10And he became very hungry, and would have eaten: but while they made ready, he fell into a trance,

11And saw heaven opened, and a certain vessel descending upon him, as it had been a great sheet knit at the four corners, and let down to the earth:

12Wherein were all manner of fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air.

13And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; kill, and eat.

14But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean.

15And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.


so its all permissable : 1 Corinthians 10:23

and i think its shown in this thread a couple of times that Jesus really doesnt give us the law of old testament...


God bless

Paul is talking about food sacrificed to idols in the letter to Corinth and Peter explains his vision in Acts 10 as specifically being about people, not food. God was making a point with the lifestyle He commanded us to have, but that was being abused by some to the point of not associating with Gentiles. It is not all permissible.

 

[jari]

If salvation is instant then explain this.

Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory: 9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls. 1 Pe 1:8-9

because we are not in heaven yet.

 

[jari]

Paul is talking about food sacrificed to idols in the letter to Corinth and Peter explains his vision in Acts 10 as specifically being about people, not food. God was making a point with the lifestyle He commanded us to have, but that was being abused by some to the point of not associating with Gentiles. It is not all permissible.

God did command peter to eat these foods he called unclean.

Also Jesus said this:


Mar 7:18-23 And he saith unto them, Are ye so without understanding also? Do ye not perceive, that whatsoever thing from without entereth into the man, it cannot defile him; (19) Because it entereth not into his heart, but into the belly, and goeth out into the draught, purging all meats? (20) And he said, That which cometh out of the man, that defileth the man. (21) For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, (22) Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness: (23) All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.


Its not the food laws that are important.

Some one eats only hearbs some one eats meat, we are not to judge each other over these things..

 

[JonahofAkron]

God did command peter to eat these foods he called unclean.

Also Jesus said this:


Mar 7:18-23 And he saith unto them, Are ye so without understanding also? Do ye not perceive, that whatsoever thing from without entereth into the man, it cannot defile him; (19) Because it entereth not into his heart, but into the belly, and goeth out into the draught, purging all meats? (20) And he said, That which cometh out of the man, that defileth the man. (21) For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, (22) Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness: (23) All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.


Its not the food laws that are important.

Some one eats only hearbs some one eats meat, we are not to judge each other over these things..

You misread the text. Peter never eats anything unclean and tells the readers that his vision was about the fact that some call certain people unclean. It was not about food. That was the analogy.

Read the Matthew text again. The issue is hand washing, not food.

 

[jari]

You misread the text. Peter never eats anything unclean and tells the readers that his vision was about the fact that some call certain people unclean. It was not about food. That was the analogy.

Yes but what God said to Peter? Kill and eat.

Read the Matthew text again. The issue is hand washing, not food.

They washed hands before eating... Jesus told that not what goes in defiles the man but what comes out.

so it really seems necessary to obey laws about healthy eating and hygiene...

 

[gdemoss]

You misread the text. Peter never eats anything unclean and tells the readers that his vision was about the fact that some call certain people unclean. It was not about food. That was the analogy.

Read the Matthew text again. The issue is hand washing, not food.

I agree with you. This was never about food. But if you honestly knew what "the law is made for an unrighteous man" meant, then you would understand the proper place of the law. I am now finished with this thread for the purpose of studying the proper place of the law as God has answered my question for me by using all of you to show me all of the wisdom known about it from different perspectives and then asking the Holy Spirit to reveal the truth about each thing spoken to me discerning truth from error through him.

What was revealed: It is a complex understanding. The Jews who are not of faith are kept under the law until such time as the veil is taken away from their heart and understanding is given to them for the reason for the laws and how to properly understand why each law was crafted as it was. Believing Gentiles were never brought under the law for the purpose of guiding their behavior and teaching them the mind of God as they immediately receive the Holy Spirit that guides them into all truth. The need for the school master to teach is eliminated.

The Holy Spirit did not directly reveal unto me the answer if the Messianic Jews are still to use the Mosaic law for the purpose of raising and teaching their children as being part of the Jewish nation. I do know that although there is no difference between Jew and Gentile believers as all are one in Christ, that doesn't limit the way that God chooses to use each group as separate and have each live different lifestyles for his own purposes. Gentiles not using the law but Jews using it. But any who use it are to use it lawfully.

Using the law lawfully would be a whole other study,

Gary

 

[JonahofAkron]

Yes but what God said to Peter? Kill and eat.



They washed hands before eating... Jesus told that not what goes in defiles the man but what comes out.

so it really seems necessary to obey laws about healthy eating and hygiene...

To prove a point. Peter didn't eat.

The common practice was hand washing before a mea because the Pharisees believed that a man's hands could have transferred some sort of uncleanness not picked up from an unclean thing to their food. Messiah was saying that if it's already clean, it stays clean. I'm sure hygiene was the goal. I don't know.

 

[jari]

To prove a point. Peter didn't eat.

The common practice was hand washing before a mea because the Pharisees believed that a man's hands could have transferred some sort of uncleanness not picked up from an unclean thing to their food. Messiah was saying that if it's already clean, it stays clean. I'm sure hygiene was the goal. I don't know.

Peter couldn't eat because he saw a vision. But why would God say eat when your not allowed to eat? kinda confusing isnt it?

so anyway lot of stuff in OT are not just about hygieny but other unnessassary things that are no use what so ever.

Still were not under any law. Which the scriptures says in many places but perhaps its not easy to except that we really wouldnt have a law by which we are judged. Instead we have grace.

 

[JosephLove]

If Jesus had said it was ok to eat any kind of meat when he was dealing with those Pharisees about washing hands, would not have Peter had already known it was ok to eat all those meats by the time of his vision?

Being "under the Law" just means you get served a penalty when you break it.
Now that we are "under grace" we can ask for forgiveness when we break the Law, which is defined as sin: "Sin is the transgression of the law." - 1 John 3:4

Christ is our example, we are to live and walk as he did, and he never once broke the Law of God, even though he was falsely accused of doing so by the scribes and Pharisees.

 

[jiggyfly]

If Jesus had said it was ok to eat any kind of meat when he was dealing with those Pharisees about washing hands, would not have Peter had already known it was ok to eat all those meats by the time of his vision?

Being "under the Law" just means you get served a penalty when you break it.
Now that we are "under grace" we can ask for forgiveness when we break the Law, which is defined as sin: "Sin is the transgression of the law." - 1 John 3:4

Christ is our example, we are to live and walk as he did, and he never once broke the Law of God, even though he was falsely accused of doing so by the scribes and Pharisees.

1 Now, dear brothers and sisters —you who are familiar with the law—don’t you know that the law applies only while a person is living?2 For example, when a woman marries, the law binds her to her husband as long as he is alive. But if he dies, the laws of marriage no longer apply to her.3 So while her husband is alive, she would be committing adultery if she married another man. But if her husband dies, she is free from that law and does not commit adultery when she remarries.
4 So, my dear brothers and sisters, this is the point: You died to the power of the law when you died with Christ. And now you are united with the one who was raised from the dead. As a result, we can produce a harvest of good deeds for God.5 When we were controlled by our old nature, sinful desires were at work within us, and the law aroused these evil desires that produced a harvest of sinful deeds, resulting in death.6 But now we have been released from the law, for we died to it and are no longer captive to its power. Now we can serve God, not in the old way of obeying the letter of the law, but in the new way of living in the Spirit.
Romans 7:1-6 (NLT)

17 But suppose we seek to be made right with God through faith in Christ and then we are found guilty because we have abandoned the law. Would that mean Christ has led us into sin? Absolutely not!18 Rather, I am a sinner if I rebuild the old system of law I already tore down.19 For when I tried to keep the law, it condemned me. So I died to the law—I stopped trying to meet all its requirements—so that I might live for God.20 My old self has been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me. So I live in this earthly body by trusting in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.21 I do not treat the grace of God as meaningless. For if keeping the law could make us right with God, then there was no need for Christ to die.
Gal 2:17-21 (NLT)

 

[JosephLove]

"Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven" - Matthew 5:17-19


So Christ did not come to "destroy" the Law, but rather He "did away" with the Law?

That doesn't make sense to me.


"Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ" - Romans 7:4


Paul did not say the Law died, but rather he said we died to the Law, through Jesus.
Christ paid the death penalty in our stead. The law of God no longer claims our lives.


So if the Law is done away, it's ok to steal, now?
We can commit adultery, bare false witness, eat foods that doctors say are bad for us (which is not treating your body like a temple), we can murder, take God's name in vain, and,... anything we want?


Paul actually goes on to call the Law "holy, just and good":



"What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good" - Romans 7:7-12


If Jesus did not do away with the Law, why would Paul?


If the Law is now suddenly wrong to keep, why would Paul call it holy, just and good?


Sure, only the blood of Christ can save you from your sins.
But what is sin?


"Sin is the transgression of the Law" - 1 John 3:4


Sorry, i'm not trying to argue, it's just,... if the Law is all gone now, how do we know what sin is?
No more law means no more sin, right?


I agree with everything said in Galatians chapter 2, and how the Law can not save anyone. Amen!


But the Law shows you what Sin is, and therefor helps me recognize my need for a savior. (Romans 7:7)
So without the Law, how would we know what Sin is?


Without a speed limit sign, could I have known I was speeding?

 

[Kit Carson]

Man is the master of confusion.

Jesus told his disciple that he must suffer much at the hands of the elders and scribes and that he would die and rise in three days. He challenged mans laws and the wise and learned scribes. As they put forth the laws of man.

Take that speed limit sign. That is a law of man it is for order and harmony. It is a rule of regulation and a good rule. Just the same it is a law of man, where as the law of God within this example would be to not promote the arrogance of ignoring the sign and challenging a rule. The law of God within this is your attitude about following rules that promote order. This is a good rule and goes to the command of God to follow the rules set by your government as they are put there for order and protection . A bad rule of man would be something like you get divorced and mans law says you must pay alimony and you lose your job and cannot pay. Mans law has no compassion and the law comes and throws you in jail. So now mans law insures no payment will ever be made and that society will also foot the bill for your support. This is the nature of the law of man. It always results in things of ignorance. Gods simple law says work it out, do not allow yourself to get in this mess to begin with.

God said there shall not be adultery, divorce and all these things. Man made allowances for them and created his own laws. Jesus told the elders the laws were made by man because of your stubborn ways. They are not the laws of God.

In the world of today, many things are allowed due to the rules of man, the way of man. However they are not the laws of God.

There is no confusion in the simple moral laws of God and they still stand and will always stand.

A rule or tradition of man is for example, not to eat pork. It was a good rule for the time, as we know certain kinds of meat is nasty and carries disease if not properly stored and cooked, but Jesus said it is not the organic things you put into your body that are bad, it is the bad things that come out of you or your mouth that are bad.

The rules of God and the laws of God are placed in our hearts by Gods word and the Holy Spirit. The word of God reveals the truth of Gods law .......such as you attend a church oh it is a fancy one and they wish to put up a fancy solid maple door with gold plating. So they tell the membership, you have to donate. Are you not ashamed of yourself, we need this much money and you only gave this much. Gods word says, ignore the silly rules of man created to tear you down, and go find an intelligent place to give your money or to help someone. Go do this and I will be pleased with you.

The laws of God to me are so simple. They are the laws of morality, kindness, compassion, truth, honor, respect, all the good things.

Easy for me to understand, but man loves to confuse. To me there is no confusion.

Kit

 

[JosephLove]

Man is the master of confusion.

Jesus told his disciple that he must suffer much at the hands of the elders and scribes and that he would die and rise in three days. He challenged mans laws and the wise and learned scribes. As they put forth the laws of man.

Take that speed limit sign. That is a law of man it is for order and harmony. It is a rule of regulation and a good rule. Just the same it is a law of man, where as the law of God within this example would be to not promote the arrogance of ignoring the sign and challenging a rule. The law of God within this is your attitude about following rules that promote order. This is a good rule and goes to the command of God to follow the rules set by your government as they are put there for order and protection . A bad rule of man would be something like you get divorced and mans law says you must pay alimony and you lose your job and cannot pay. Mans law has no compassion and the law comes and throws you in jail. So now mans law insures no payment will ever be made and that society will also foot the bill for your support. This is the nature of the law of man. It always results in things of ignorance. Gods simple law says work it out, do not allow yourself to get in this mess to begin with.

God said there shall not be adultery, divorce and all these things. Man made allowances for them and created his own laws. Jesus told the elders the laws were made by man because of your stubborn ways. They are not the laws of God.

In the world of today, many things are allowed due to the rules of man, the way of man. However they are not the laws of God.

There is no confusion in the simple moral laws of God and they still stand and will always stand.

A rule or tradition of man is for example, not to eat pork. It was a good rule for the time, as we know certain kinds of meat is nasty and carries disease if not properly stored and cooked, but Jesus said it is not the organic things you put into your body that are bad, it is the bad things that come out of you or your mouth that are bad.

The rules of God and the laws of God are placed in our hearts by Gods word and the Holy Spirit. The word of God reveals the truth of Gods law .......such as you attend a church oh it is a fancy one and they wish to put up a fancy solid maple door with gold plating. So they tell the membership, you have to donate. Are you not ashamed of yourself, we need this much money and you only gave this much. Gods word says, ignore the silly rules of man created to tear you down, and go find an intelligent place to give your money or to help someone. Go do this and I will be pleased with you.

The laws of God to me are so simple. They are the laws of morality, kindness, compassion, truth, honor, respect, all the good things.

Easy for me to understand, but man loves to confuse. To me there is no confusion.

Kit

Well actually, not eating pork was a Law made by God, not man.
You can read about what foods we should eat in Deuteronomy 14, I believe.

It's very simple to me too, kit. If God says not to do something, and I do it, I have sinned.
Therefor he gave us commandments, and when I break them, I sin.

I'm not arrogant about this, maybe I really have over looked something about the Law, but honestly, I just don't see God doing away with the Law, neither have I read any scripture that makes me believe other wise.
The Law is Holy, just and good! I love it!

Christ preached against the Pharisees who made their own laws and commandments.
The Pharisees made their own ordinances which were against us.

Christ never preached against the Law He (I AM) gave to Moses!
He preached against the laws and traditions of man!

 

[th1bill]

If Jesus had said it was ok to eat any kind of meat when he was dealing with those Pharisees about washing hands, would not have Peter had already known it was ok to eat all those meats by the time of his vision?

Being "under the Law" just means you get served a penalty when you break it.
Now that we are "under grace" we can ask for forgiveness when we break the Law, which is defined as sin: "Sin is the transgression of the law." - 1 John 3:4

Christ is our example, we are to live and walk as he did, and he never once broke the Law of God, even though he was falsely accused of doing so by the scribes and Pharisees.

So remember what you have received and heard; and keep it, and repent. Therefore if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what hour I will come to you. NASB

Jesus told us in the Gospels that if we love Him we will obey His commands. Then, when, we look at John 1:1-3 we find that Jesus is God as well the Creator of aqll that is. Thus it is that the Ten Commandments and the following explanations are His commands. The Nations of Judah and Israel failed so miserably, as He knew they would, and so, just as He planned before time, He came to die for our debts and to teach us how to use His Commands.

Jesus never had need of repentance because He never sinned! That is the goal of every Christ follower! Repentence is only for when we unintentionally fail.