Questions About Talk Jesus's Statement of Faith

[GodB4Us]

This is from the Talk Jesus's Statement of Faith;

"Baptism
We believe the baptism in the Holy Spirit, with the evidence of speaking in other tongues as the Spirit gives utterance (1 Corinthians 14), is for all believers as promised by John the Baptist (Matthew 3:11), Jesus (Acts 1:4-8), and Peter(Acts 2:38-41). The fulfillment of this promise was witnessed by early disciples of Christ (Acts 2:4, 10:44-47, 19:1-6) and operates in many present-day disciples of the Lord Jesus Christ. "

Are you saying that every one that gets baptized in the Holy Spirit, will speak in tongues?

Are you saying that if a believer does not speak in tongues, they do not have the Holy Spirit and so they are not saved?

If not, some clarification please, because I cannot see how that can be even partially correct when that would cause division within the body of Christ. It can bring even more hurtful questions.

Should the believer worry because the Holy Spirit is not praying out loud in tongues for them?

Does this mean God does not care about them as much as He does others?

1 Corinthians 12:12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. 13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. 14 For the body is not one member, but many.

19 And if they were all one member, where were the body? 20 But now are they many members, yet but one body. 21 And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.

25 That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another. 26 And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it. 27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular. 28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues. 29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles? 30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret? 31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.

I believe every believer ought to know that the fact that they DO believe in Jesus Christ is a work of the Father for why they should rest in His Peace that they are born again of the Spirit by faith in Jesus Christ, & not by the sign of tongues.

John 6: 44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Matthew 11:25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes. 26 Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight. 27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. 38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. 39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. 40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. 21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

Hebrews 11:1Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. 2 For by it the elders obtained a good report.

Galatians 3: 14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. .... 26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

1 John 5: 13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

No sign of tongues required as proof to the believer that they have the holy Ghost at their born again of the Spirit moment of salvation, because tongues were to serve as a sign to unbelievers, not to the believers about any thing.

1 Corinthians 14: 22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

 

[Rhema]

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No sign of tongues required as proof to the believer that they have the holy Ghost at their born again of the Spirit moment of salvation, because tongues were to serve as a sign to unbelievers, not to the believers about any thing.

Seek and ye shall find.

And when it happens to you (as it had to me) then you'll realize the futility in asking someone who has not spoken in tongues about the purpose of speaking in tongues.

God bless,
Rhema

PS: Would you ask your Doctor about the noise your car transmission is making?
Oh, and welcome.

DISCLAIMER - I am neither the owner, nor a moderator, and so this post is NOT to be construed as any official reply to your query.

 

[GodB4Us]

Seek and ye shall find.

And when it happens to you (as it had to me) then you'll realize the futility in asking someone who has not spoken in tongues about the purpose of speaking in tongues.

God bless,
Rhema

PS: Would you ask your Doctor about the noise your car transmission is making?
Oh, and welcome.

DISCLAIMER - I am neither the owner, nor a moderator, and so this post is NOT to be construed as any official reply to your query.

I thank you for your cordial reply. I am grateful that the thread had passed moderation so believers can give me an answer to those that ask.

Paul knows about God's gift of tongues, and so it is from the scripture that I discern with Him that God's gift of tongues cannot be for private use.

The fact that this was gained by what Christians had believed was the holy Spirit coming over them again later in life as a saved believer or when they had believed and went forward seeking a sign that they had received the Holy Spirit to get saved, when tongues are not to serve as a sign to believers as proof of salvation at all, but to serve as a sign to unbelievers.

A neighbor across the street was telling me that she was reading her Bible one day in the kitchen when she felt the Holy Spirit came over her and she spoke in tongues. Then she proclaimed that was when she was saved because she got the Holy Spirit and tongues all at once. Then I had asked her what she was reading that led her into believing in Jesus Christ. She did not know wat I had meant and then it donned on her and began to share further that she went to her pastor and had asked what had happened because she was a believer most of her life. She had said the pastor pointed to the Book of Acts which I should have inquired where in Acts, and so I can only assume it was Acts 2nd chapter when His disciples were just doing every day thing in the upper room. She went on to share that others at her church had testified to that event but she rolled her eyes at it as if questioning the every day things they were doing but did not care to elaborate.

Now she had said she did not believe in that false teaching that if you do not speak in tongues, you do not have the Holy Spirit, and therefore you ae not saved, but I would think it would be hard for her to prevent any one from using her testimony as proof of that effect. Same with that section about Baptism in Talk Jesus's Statement of Faith.

Joyce Meyers had the same experience as my neighbor in feeling the "Holy Spirit" come over her and she spoke in tongues but she took it as a sign that God was calling her into the ministry. She did not change her testimony as to when she was saved as my neighbor had done.

When I see in scripture in Isaiah 8:19 that mediums and wizards speaks in gibberish nonsense, and internet shows evidence of pagan's supernatural tongues before Pentecost, then that would make God the copy cat of Satan's tongues which He is not and so I see why the apostle John warned believers not to believe every spirit but test them since the Spirit of Christ is in us ( 1 John 4:1-4 ) and the tongues they bring for God's gift of tongues will not sound like the world's tongues of gibberish nonsense ( 1 John 4:5-6 ) as found in the occult per Isaiah 8:19.

I believe in God's gift of tongues is still present today along with the other gifts of the Spirit, but believers are not testing the spirits nor the tongue they bring because they assume when it comes with no interpretation, that it is for private use.

Paul gave the bottom line on tongues as being for God to speak unto the people, and that it was to serve as a sign to unbelievers.

1 Corinthians 14:20 Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men. 21 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord. 22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

1 Corinthians 12:12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. 13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. 14 For the body is not one member, but many.

Does not Paul clearly testify that believers do not need to seek another baptism with the Holy Ghost to get any gifts of the Spirit? So how does one apply the warning from Paul in 2 Corinthians 11:3-4 when believers say they need to do?

2 Corinthians 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. 4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

So how can believers be testifying to having another drink of the One Spirit by that other baptism with the Holy Ghost with evidence of tongues or by that sign of tongues as that other calling used to be known by?

How can we be speaking the same thing and holding to the same judgment when this other calling for another baptism with the Holy Ghost does not even stop there at this "second blessing", but believers are receiving the Holy Spirit after other sensational signs in the flesh like slain in the spirit and holy laughter movement where they lose self control and fall backwards in as I have witnessed some have done in seeking that tongue by another baptism with the Holy Ghost?

Proverbs 25:26 A righteous man falling down before the wicked is as a troubled fountain, and a corrupt spring. 27 It is not good to eat much honey: so for men to search their own glory is not glory. 28 He that hath no rule over his own spirit is like a city that is broken down, and without walls.

1 Corinthians 14:32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets. 33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

I do believe your experience & any one else's was real, but this is causing a schism in the body of Christ as it separates those who believe that do not speak in tongues from those that do. How they got that tongue also concerns me too.

 

[GodB4Us]

.

Seek and ye shall find.

And when it happens to you (as it had to me) then you'll realize the futility in asking someone who has not spoken in tongues about the purpose of speaking in tongues.

God bless,
Rhema

PS: Would you ask your Doctor about the noise your car transmission is making?
Oh, and welcome.

DISCLAIMER - I am neither the owner, nor a moderator, and so this post is NOT to be construed as any official reply to your query.

We are to prove all things and abstain from all appearances of evil....

From the outside looking in....but in testing tongues for private use in according to scriptures...

One tongue speaker had listed all the benefits for speaking in tongues and yet they cannot tell what benefit they are receiving when that tongue comes with no interpretation? Yet still, Paul would pray for that interpretation when the Holy Spirit manifest tongues in Paul when in the assembly so that he may understand that tongue for that tongue to be fruitful to himself?

1 Corinthians 14:12 Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church. 13 Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret. 14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful. 15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.

So how can tongues self edify unless Paul was comparing tongues against prophesy for why prophesy is better gift to seek after because tongues is not a stand alone gift?

1 Corinthians 14:1Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy. 2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries. 3 But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort. 4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church. 5 I would that ye all spake with tongues but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

1 Corinthians 14:26 How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying. 27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret. 28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.

Can verse 28 be referring to a foreigner speaking out of turn for why there is no interpretation and the reasons for telling him to keep silence in the assembly because he understands what he is saying as God does, thus he is not a crazy person speaking to himself and to God? Should that also be the meaning in 1 Corinthians 14:2 in that the believer speaking in tongues is not understanding what is being said but God does, not that he is speaking to God since there are no mysteries to God but only to himself and those around him that does not know that foreign language for why interpretation will come?

The fact that one of the benefits of tongues for private use is the Holy Spirit is praying for them and so why isn't the Holy Spirit praying in other believers that do not speak in tongues? Doubts are sown about their salvation.

And yet the Lord has shown me that in all Bible versions, the Holy Spirit cannot speak for Himself, nor on His own authority, but speaks only what He hears in serving as the Spirit of Christ in John 16:13-15 and yet not all modern bibles testify that not even His groanings can be uttered in Romans 8:26-27 as it does in the KJV & a few modern Bibles, hence His intercessions are silent for why this reference is for every believer. Romans 8:27 is testifying to Jesus Christ that searches our hearts and knows the mind of the Spirit as it is in according to the will of God for there is only one Mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus ( 1 Timothy 2:5 ) as all intercessions goes through the Son to the father so that when the father says "Yes" to any of those intercessions, the Son of God answers the prayers so that the Father is glorified in the Son for answers to prayers ( John 14:13-14 ).

This explain show the Father knows before we ask Him anything. Matthew 6:7-8

So the Holy Spirit is not using God's gift of tongues for praying out loud at all. This is an assurance for every believer that God the Father knows everything, even at times when we know not what to pray for when we are overwhelmed.

I know believers will apply verses out of context here and there, to prove all the benefits for tongues for private use and yet it makes Paul look stupid for exhorting the gift of prophesy over all spiritual gifts to seek after including tongues which was the topic repeated in 1 Corinthians 14:1 & 1 Corinthians 14:21 & 1 Corinthians 14:26.

I look at the exhortation today and it is about seeking the gift of tongues rather than prophesy, seemingly nulling & voiding Paul's exhortation in 1 Corinthians 14th chapter altogether, and yet this exhortation comes with giving saved believers another calling and thus another gospel to seek after another baptism with the Holy Ghost by that sign of tongues in order to get that tongue for private use.

 

[GodB4Us]

.

Seek and ye shall find.

And when it happens to you (as it had to me) then you'll realize the futility in asking someone who has not spoken in tongues about the purpose of speaking in tongues.

God bless,
Rhema

PS: Would you ask your Doctor about the noise your car transmission is making?
Oh, and welcome.

DISCLAIMER - I am neither the owner, nor a moderator, and so this post is NOT to be construed as any official reply to your query.

Have you ever wondered how the One World Church will come about? Can that supernatural tongues that is gibberish nonsense as found in other religions, idolatries, cults in Christianity, & the occult, be the means as gathering grapes of thorns and figs of thistles as that is the fruit of the false prophet, being ecumenical in nature?

Matthew 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. 16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

Isaiah 8:19 And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead?

1 Timothy 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

I had always addressed the scripture below in regards to the iniquity responsible for causing the falling away from the faith in these latter days, but it does testify to how that son of perdition may get that one world church in worshipping him.

2 Thessalonians 2:1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

What is that damnation coming on believers that fell away from the faith? To be left behind at the rapture event to die, but their spirits will be with the Lord in heaven to wait for their resurrection after the great tribulation in being damned as that vessel unto dishonor in His House, that vessels of wood and earth, which is not like the vessels unto honor as vessels of gold & silver in His House. 2 Timothy 2:18-21 note verse 20.

As it is, the lie is saved believers believing that they can receive the Holy Spirit again after a sign, be it tongues or other sensational signs in the flesh, as the world does in receiving spirits on a continual basis. The reproof from Paul in exposing that lie is by the traditions as taught below that we had received the sanctification of he Spirit and the belief of the truth at the calling of the gospel, thus at no other time will a believer receive the holy Spirit again.

13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: 14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

Paul goes on to address the wayward believers in the next chapter as addressing them as not having faith nor walking after the tradition taught of us and ae disorderly in 2 Thessalonians 3:1-7 but in commanding believers to withdraw from them that went astray, this is to be done not to treat them as the enemy, but admonish them as brothers still because they are still brothers & still saved; 2 Thessalonians 3;14-15

I remember sinners posting at one time that there is no way a one world church could come about in mocking Bible prophesy, but if that son of perdition can cause all sinners to speak in that pagan's supernatural tongue, he could fool every sinner out there into uniting as one by that means. It does seem to suggest that in 2 Thessalonians 2nd chapter as shown in this post.

As it is, it is causing the fall away from the faith in Christianity as it can be found in cults in Christianity including the Catholic Church. There are some believers that in spite of that phenomenon, do not believe they are saved yet, but in the process of being saved. With all of that supposed self edification for tongues for private use, how is it that no one is speaking the same things at all yet? How is that Catholic Charismatic Church still Catholic after all that time? What good is that tongue for private use other than to be ecumenical in nature, seducing saved believers to seek after receiving the "Holy Spirit" after a sign of that tongue?

One church had believed they had the actual God's gift of tongues with interpretation, and had hired a linguist to record the variety of foreign languages to translate them, but only to find that they were all gibberish nonsense. I cannot accuse the interpreters as faking it any more than those faking tongues because Joyce Meyers explained how she interprets tongues and that is by getting the gist or feel of what is being said, so basically she, and the interpreters in that church were winging it.

How can believers & churches prove all things and abstain from all appearances of evil if that pagan's supernatural tongue can be found in Christianity as it is in the world? How can sinners know they have dearted from those spirist and that kind of tongues if Christian churches have the same kind of tongue, but believed to be for private use because it was not coming with interpretation?

I know that believers have been reading their tongues for private use into Paul's words but I still say they are ignoring the context of the message that God's gift of tongues are not for private use, Paul gave the precedent in chapter 12 for why they should not read tongues are for private use into chapter 14.

1 Corinthians 12:4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord. 6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all. 7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. 13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. 14 For the body is not one member, but many.

19 And if they were all one member, where were the body? 20 But now are they many members, yet but one body. 21 And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.

That is scriptural proof tongues were never for private use, and without meaning to, saved believers that have gone astray are not preaching Jesus Christ & Him crucified to get that baptism with the Holy Ghost & tongues, but without preaching that gospel thus giving a different gospel just to get that supernatural tongues for private use as many fall for it in receiving as well as they do after other signs too.

2 Peter 3:15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; 16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. 17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.

 

[Rhema]

I should have inquired where in Acts, and so I can only assume it was Acts 2nd chapter

Acts chapter 2, Acts chapter 10, Acts chapter 19. Best not to limit oneself.

First apologies, as my time constraints right now will make my reply look like a sniping shot, rather than anything resembling a nicely well written treatise. It's not meant to be "snippity".

Second, I have a rather broad background in numerous Christian denominations, having visited over 400 churches in my lifetime, in order to "get a lay of the land" of what is called Christendom. At this point I find neither position has adequate support, those being: a) tongues have ceased and b) one cannot be saved without having spoken in tongues.

So part of my story is that I had visited roughly a dozen or more Pentecostal / Charismatic churches where the sermon was on this "Tongues Baptism" where tongues was claimed as being the only evidence that one could have of having been "Baptized in the Holy Spirit." None of these sermons were without mistake, so I noted the claims and moved on. Until one night at the age of 32, I was attending a Charismatic service where the sermon was on this topic (again). It was interesting. The pastor had been truly twisting what the KJV scriptures were saying.... in a slight way, mildly "bent" but nothing egregious to walk out on. But I had my Greek New Testament (with English interlinear) on me. Not only was the Greek actually saying what this pastor was preaching, it was more emphatic. At the end and to my horror, the pastor didn't make a mistake. I couldn't avoid action. I had to deal with this issue right then and there. Now to make a very long wondrous story sound almost inconsequential, I wound up being baptized in tongues that night, to the horror of this church, because my experience didn't follow their expectations.

I guess my point here is that to understand this phenomena of the Christian walk, one should speak with several "tongues speaking" believers. Most just absorb their denomination's viewpoint, or speak with one or two people - the friend of a friend - or try to use one's brain to figure out what this all means (leaning to one's own understanding) when reading what is mentioned in the text. Trust me, the New Testament presumes an experience of speaking in tongues, it does not - anywhere - at all - provide a comprehensive explanation. The New Testament is NOT written like a school textbook, and I believe it to be a dire mistake to treat it as if it was.

This is the New Testament I was using -

The Interlinear KJV-NIV Parallel New Testament in Greek…

The Interlinear KJV-NIV Parallel New Testament does thr…

www.goodreads.com

It allowed me to directly compare the KJV the pastor was using, with the initial Greek text as published centuries ago.

And since my time is even more limited, not only should one speak with several believers having been baptized in tongues (and attend and listen to several sermons about this) one should also obtain a copy of the above New Testament in order to ensure that the sermon to which one is listening (an audible interpretation, as all sermons are interpretations) actually fits what was written.

So go buy one.

I shall have some more time later to reply in greater detail, but wanted to get this out to you.

Kindly,
Rhema

PS: Also, I would caution that one should not base one's understanding of tongues on a scripture passage where abuse of tongues is being corrected.

 

[GodB4Us]

Acts chapter 2, Acts chapter 10, Acts chapter 19. Best not to limit oneself.

Th disciples that James had come across in Acts 19 were disciples of John the Baptist's and therefore not believers nor disciples of Jesus Christ and so that doesn't count as one, but thanks any way.

As for Acts 10, Peter was preaching the gospel for when they had believed in Him to receive the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Ghost and so that does not really apply also.

So far, Acts 2 is where the believers were waiting for the birth of the church; hence their born again of the spirit moment of their salvation. It is only deductive reasoning since she was referring to others just doing every day things unlike her reading her Bible, even though she was not reading anything for which she believed in that moment in Jesus Christ wen she has been a believer for a long time.

I can agree with you that there may be some other event that the pastor was pointing to in Acts, but Acts 2 seems to be the best educated guess as to what that pastor was pointing from what she was talking about.

First apologies, as my time constraints right now will make my reply look like a sniping shot, rather than anything resembling a nicely well written treatise. It's not meant to be "snippity".

Okay.

Second, I have a rather broad background in numerous Christian denominations, having visited over 400 churches in my lifetime, in order to "get a lay of the land" of what is called Christendom. At this point I find neither position has adequate support, those being: a) tongues have ceased and b) one cannot be saved without having spoken in tongues.

So part of my story is that I had visited roughly a dozen or more Pentecostal / Charismatic churches where the sermon was on this "Tongues Baptism" where tongues was claimed as being the only evidence that one could have of having been "Baptized in the Holy Spirit." None of these sermons were without mistake, so I noted the claims and moved on. Until one night at the age of 32, I was attending a Charismatic service where the sermon was on this topic (again). It was interesting. The pastor had been truly twisting what the KJV scriptures were saying.... in a slight way, mildly "bent" but nothing egregious to walk out on. But I had my Greek New Testament (with English interlinear) on me. Not only was the Greek actually saying what this pastor was preaching, it was more emphatic. At the end and to my horror, the pastor didn't make a mistake. I couldn't avoid action. I had to deal with this issue right then and there. Now to make a very long wondrous story sound almost inconsequential, I wound up being baptized in tongues that night, to the horror of this church, because my experience didn't follow their expectations.

I guess my point here is that to understand this phenomena of the Christian walk, one should speak with several "tongues speaking" believers. Most just absorb their denomination's viewpoint, or speak with one or two people - the friend of a friend - or try to use one's brain to figure out what this all means (leaning to one's own understanding) when reading what is mentioned in the text. Trust me, the New Testament presumes an experience of speaking in tongues, it does not - anywhere - at all - provide a comprehensive explanation. The New Testament is NOT written like a school textbook, and I believe it to be a dire mistake to treat it as if it was.

I have to disagree with you there on that since scripture is used for a variety of things for the perfection of the saints.

2 Timothy 3:13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived. 14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them; 15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

Ephesians 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: 14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; 15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: 16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

If we allow experience instead of scripture to guide us, as in, if the phenomenon feels good, then it must be of God, then what about seducing spirits? In Khundalini, an eastern mysticism, they can feel love, joy, peace, as well as fire, power, electricity and even scarier experiences that one can definitely say it was of the devil, but they probably would not see it that way, and so when believer share the same type of experiences of being in His visiting Presence of love, joy, peace to being filled with power or fire, when the real indwelling holy Spirit is in us, I have no reservations in calling it for what it is, the spirit of the antichrist.

And I have been confronted with the dark supernatural as well as spirits masquerading when the spotlight was on the Holy Spirit in worship, and so I definitely can say I am glad the Holy Spirit has been in me since salvation as Jesus Christ is in me and with me always to walk me through his valley of death to fear no evil.

I recall a fellow co worker that went to Toronto to see that Toronto's Blessings with his girlfriend and he was disgusted with what was going on there. He reported that they were saying that they do not need the word of God any more for all they need is the "Spirit".

Anyway, more than one just reasons why we have to go by the scriptures and being around believers that had supernatural experiences that I do not have is not going to cut it.

I was speaking against Promise Keepers' movement and was attending 2 Bible studies where one said PK was about making promises to men and not to God for they know better to make promises to God, and the other said they make promises to God and not to men because men cannot be there for you but God can. They both went to that same convention in Pittsburgh and I can read the 7 promises of the PK program quite well without being there that I know it is about making promises to both God & men. And the Lord led me to scripture reproving the PK program and all those commitments to follow Christ and all an made bondages to God or to Christ for which we are to be free from to live by faith in Him..

Anyway, I do not need to hang out with tongue speakers when I have hung out with them long enough as those 2 Bible studies during the week was held by Crossing Paths Ministry led by Don Reed in the valley.

This is the New Testament I was using -

The Interlinear KJV-NIV Parallel New Testament in Greek…

The Interlinear KJV-NIV Parallel New Testament does thr…

www.goodreads.com

It allowed me to directly compare the KJV the pastor was using, with the initial Greek text as published centuries ago.

Thanks for sharing the link, but I wish to point out that even Greek scholars today disagree over proper translations and so I hope you take that link with the Lord's discernment and not just accept it at face value.

And since my time is even more limited, not only should one speak with several believers having been baptized in tongues (and attend and listen to several sermons about this) one should also obtain a copy of the above New Testament in order to ensure that the sermon to which one is listening (an audible interpretation, as all sermons are interpretations) actually fits what was written.

So go buy one.

I shall have some more time later to reply in greater detail, but wanted to get this out to you.

Kindly,
Rhema

PS: Also, I would caution that one should not base one's understanding of tongues on a scripture passage where abuse of tongues is being corrected.

Problem here is, I have not come across any church I have seen doing tongues in the assembly as Paul instructed. The ones I have been to seem to think it is okay for all to speak in tongues when in worship, the singing of songs part, and pray in tongues when all praying together. If I had known about that verse where one comes in and unlearned, and sees all that, would he not think them all mad? Yeah. That person would. I was just confused with what they were all doing.

 

[Rhema]

As it is, it is causing the fall away from the faith in Christianity

Seems like you made up your mind, and in the spirit of rejection went looking for scriptures to bolster your position. Maybe I'm missing something, but your thread seems like a polemic to forbid speaking with tongues.

Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.​

(1 Corinthians 14:39 KJV)​

Kindly,
Rhema

 

[Rhema]

Th disciples that James had come across in Acts 19

I think you mean Paul...

And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples, He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.​

(Acts 19:1-2 KJV)​

Let us strive to be accurate.

Thanks,
Rhema

Th disciples that James had come across in Acts 19 were disciples of John the Baptist's and therefore not believers nor disciples of Jesus Christ and so that doesn't count

Truly ?? You're going to claim that the Baptism of John doesn't count and those certain disciples were going to hell anyway?

Interesting.

Even Paul called them believers.

 

[Rhema]

I have to disagree with you there on that since scripture is used for a variety of things for the perfection of the saints.

Your scripture doesn't say that scripture is for the perfection of the saints.

And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:​

(Ephesians 4:11-12 KJV)​

Do you see "scripture" in that list ??

I don't.

Rhema

(So why are you adding in words ?? Just curious.)
,

 

[GodB4Us]

Your scripture doesn't say that scripture is for the perfection of the saints.

And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:​

(Ephesians 4:11-12 KJV)​

Do you see "scripture" in that list ??

I don't.

Rhema

(So why are you adding in words ?? Just curious.)
,

And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
(Ephesians 4:11-12 KJV)

Well, how can they do their job unless by the scriptures? How can they do the edifying of the body of Christ unless by the scriptures? Seems a logical and reasonable application of His words.

 

[Rhema]

Well, how can they do their job unless by the scriptures? How can they do the edifying of the body of Christ unless by the scriptures? Seems a logical and reasonable application of His words.

For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.​

(Romans 8:14 KJV)​

Again, I don't find the word "scripture" in Paul's teaching.

Thanks,
Rhema

 

[GodB4Us]

Seems like you made up your mind, and in the spirit of rejection went looking for scriptures to bolster your position. Maybe I'm missing something, but your thread seems like a polemic to forbid speaking with tongues.

Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.​

(1 Corinthians 14:39 KJV)​

Kindly,
Rhema

I believe in God's gift of tongues of other men's lips to speak unto the people for why I do not believe it can suddenly change format and be for private use for that would make God the author of confusion.

Let's say for the sake of discussion, that tongues can be for private use. Why mention it at all even in a Christian forum unless to testify of something not every Christian has? If every Christian has it, then why share that? It's not like anybody can interpret that tongue for private use to share with others so why mention that one has it at all?

Then you have the questions in the OP that no one has answered yet.

GodB4Us
Add bookmark Sunday at 7:03 PM #1
This is from the Talk Jesus's Statement of Faith;

"Baptism
We believe the baptism in the Holy Spirit, with the evidence of speaking in other tongues as the Spirit gives utterance (1 Corinthians 14), is for all believers as promised by John the Baptist (Matthew 3:11), Jesus (Acts 1:4-8), and Peter(Acts 2:38-41). The fulfillment of this promise was witnessed by early disciples of Christ (Acts 2:4, 10:44-47, 19:1-6) and operates in many present-day disciples of the Lord Jesus Christ. "

Are you saying that every one that gets baptized in the Holy Spirit, will speak in tongues?

Are you saying that if a believer does not speak in tongues, they do not have the Holy Spirit and so they are not saved?

If not, some clarification please, because I cannot see how that can be even partially correct when that would cause division within the body of Christ. It can bring even more hurtful questions.

Should the believer worry because the Holy Spirit is not praying out loud in tongues for them?

Does this mean God does not care about them as much as He does others?" ~~~~~ end of quote.

So have you made up your mind that I am not saved yet because I do not speak in tongues to prove I have the holy Spirit and therefore saved in according to that comment about Baptism in the Talk Jesus's Statement of Faith?

Or what?

I believe you are saved, and you are my brother but I do not believe we speak the same thing nor hold to the same judgment. Indeed, the questions in the OP are left unanswered and you seem to be defending it for why we are in serious disagreement here, because I believe I am saved without needing an outward sign of the holy Spirit being in me to prove I am saved. The fact that I believe in the Lord Jesus Christ & that God has raised Him from the dead is the work of the Father for how and why I believe I am saved.

Thank you for sharing, but by His grace 7 by His help, I am defending the faith in Jesus Christ as I pray that saved believers are not led astray by Talk Jesus's Statement of Faith. I dare say it may be why they are not coming in here.

This is what I get for trying to help this forum in bringing in more members, but maybe the Lord is not using me here for the success of this forum. I can accept that just as I can accept that maybe we shall have to agree to disagree.

In Christ's Love,

Christ4Me

 

[GodB4Us]

For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.​

(Romans 8:14 KJV)​

Again, I don't find the word "scripture" in Paul's teaching.

Thanks,
Rhema

So the edifying is done exactly how?

 

[Curtis]

Romans 8:16

It is the indwelling of the Holy Spirit that bears witness to our spirit that we are the children of God. All believers have this witness in themselves.

The evidence of being Baptised in the Holy Spirit is speaking in tongues. Not all have this, but they should.

 

[GodB4Us]

Romans 8:16

It is the indwelling of the Holy Spirit that bears witness to our spirit that we are the children of God. All believers have this witness in themselves.

The evidence of being Baptised in the Holy Spirit is speaking in tongues. Not all have this, but they should.

@Bob Carabbio

Now why doesn't every one have this tongue as proof of having received this baptism with the Holy Ghost?

And why do all should if they are already saved thus born again of the Spirit by faith in Jesus Christ; & not by sight nor by a sign that they are saved?

 

[Bob Carabbio]

@Bob Carabbio

Now why doesn't every one have this tongue as proof of having received this baptism with the Holy Ghost?

It Appears that the majority of those receiving the "Baptism in the Holy SPirit DO manifest "tongues" as a feature of the "Package". I did.

And why do all should if they are already saved thus born again of the Spirit by faith in Jesus Christ; & not by sight nor by a sign that they are saved?

Getting "Born again" of the holy Spirit is a different issue entirely. Being "Born Again" is the Holy Spirit INDWELLING, i.e. IN (John 20:22) the person. The "baptism in the Holy Spirit (Acts 2) is the Holy Spirit ON the person. Jesus used the term "Endued" (clothed with) so a different issue entirely. NO MAJOR PENTECOSTAL of Charismatic body ties "Speaking in tongues" with Salvation (The UPCI "Oneness" lunatic fringe being an excepion).

 

[GodB4Us]

It Appears that the majority of those receiving the "Baptism in the Holy SPirit DO manifest "tongues" as a feature of the "Package". I did.

Had you believed in Jesus Christ long before that had happened? And why or how did this baptism in the Holy Spirit happened?

Getting "Born again" of the holy Spirit is a different issue entirely. Being "Born Again" is the Holy Spirit INDWELLING, i.e. IN (John 20:22) the person. The "baptism in the Holy Spirit (Acts 2) is the Holy Spirit ON the person. Jesus used the term "Endued" (clothed with) so a different issue entirely. NO MAJOR PENTECOSTAL of Charismatic body ties "Speaking in tongues" with Salvation (The UPCI "Oneness" lunatic fringe being an excepion).

@Curtis

@Chad

@Rhema

The problem here is your reasoning of in and on cannot be the difference.

Jesus told His disciples that He was going to leave to the Father soon ( John 14:1-3 ) and that He promised the permanent indwelling of the Holy Ghost was to be received afterwards ( John 14:16-17 ) as sent from the Father and not when He was present with them ( John 14:25-26 ).

Jesus told Nicodemus that the born again of the Spirit was to happen after His ascension ( John 3:13 ) which was after His crucifixion ( John 3:14 ) for when any one believes in Him would be saved ( John :15-18 )

So that episode in John 20:22 is the same as that episode in Matthew 10 th chapter when Judas Iscariot got the power & the temporary indwelling of the Holy Ghost because Jesus was with them. None of His remaining disciples were saved until Pentecost.

So the baptism with the Holy Ghost and the born again of the Spirit is the same event, signifying when a believer is saved by faith in Jesus Christ.

Some argue that the phenomenon you are talking about is about receiving power but again John 1:12-13 testifies that is also received at salvation when believers become the sons of God.

My concern here is that the phenomenon you had experienced was not of Him for why believers like you, want to refer all saved believers to seek after it as if giving them another calling or another gospel, another drink of the One Spirit when there is only one hope of our calling per Ephesians 4:4-6 & only one gospel that we should heed this warning from Paul ( 2 Corinthians 11:3-4 ) in avoiding receiving another Jesus or another spirit which they have not received or another gospel.

What you share is departing from the testimony we all are suppose to share of having only one drink of the One Spirit by Whom we were all baptized into that one body of Christ; 1 Corinthians 12:13

And the other problem here is .. this phenomenon of what has been called "the second blessing", does not stop there, as they are other callings in receiving the "Holy Spirit" after other signs in the flesh thus continuous.

Is it any wonder why the believers are seen as being out to the market still for not being found ready as abiding in Him & His words when the Bridegroom comes; Matthew 25:1-13.

Hope you can see why I am concern for you guys as you are my brothers.

 

[Curtis]

@Bob Carabbio

Now why doesn't every one have this tongue as proof of having received this baptism with the Holy Ghost?

And why do all should if they are already saved thus born again of the Spirit by faith in Jesus Christ; & not by sight nor by a sign that they are saved?

Jesus referred to the new birth (getting everlasting life) as a "spring of water springing up "inside of a person" unto everlasting life"

John 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

Later Jesus referred to receiving the Holy Spirit that will "flow out of a person" as a river.

Joh 7:38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
Joh 7:39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

Notice: Jesus did not say that everyone would get this, but that everyone who believes "should receive" it.

The spring of water inside of a believer is for their own comfort (the comforter). It is the Holy Spirit inside of a person who is the inner witness that we are children of God.

The river that flows out of a person who is baptized in the Holy Spirit is not for their own comfort is for the comforting of other people. The outflowing water is for being able to minister to others.

 

[Curtis]

why do all should if they are already saved

Remember Jesus said you can not put new wine in old wineskins. You to put new wine in new wineskins. A person needs to be made new first then the new wine is poured inside. After I became born anew (about 50+ years ago) I discovered something I did not know and it was this.

Luk 11:13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?