Regards to wealth and possessions
- Thread starter Hannah1
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Interesting, so what of Christs words further on in the story when he says to his Disciples, "How hard it will be for a Rich man to enter Heaven, it is easier for a Camel to pass through the eye of a needle than a rich man enter Heaven"., nothing to do with attitude but mere possession.
Or what of Matthew 6: 19-21, where Christ says "Do NOT store up Treasure on Earth, .... for where your Treasure is your Heart will be also" and in Matthew 6:24" No man can serve 2 masters, you cannot serve God and Mammon". Christ is saying that if you store up Treasure on Earth then your heart will be with that treasure, there is no "might be with your Treasure", but "will be with your Treasure", whatever we profess our attitude to our riches to be, Christ knows better, and you "CANNOT SERVE GOD AND MAMMON".
Or what of Luke 6:24, "Woe to you who are Rich, for you have received your consolation", There is no mention of our attitude to our riches , just a condemnation of "The Rich"..
And in the parable of Lazarus and the Rich man the Rich man is sent to Hell because as Abraham says to him in Luke 16:25 " Son, remember that in your lifetime you received good things and Lazarus Evil things, now he is comforted and you are tormented". He is condemned to Hell for being Rich, for receiving the good things riches bestow, his professed attitude to his riches matters not, to possess them is cause for condemnation.
It seems to me that Christ is condemning the Rich simply for being rich, its not a question of "attitude" to your riches but the possession of them that Christ condemns and i wonder if this differentiation between attitude to and not just possession of, came about because it suits the rich and powerful, who want to retain their riches and still profess their faith, a situation which to me seems blatantly irreconcilable with Christs words.
Gothedral
Active
What the Book of Job?
Selfishness and greed are absolutely blatantly irreconcilable with Christ's words. Here are some verses from The Word (NABRE):
Deuteronomy 15:7–8, 11 — The Law of the Open Hand
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Leviticus 19:9–10 — The Law of Leaving Wealth for the Poor
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Luke 12:33 — Jesus' Command to Disinvest from Worldly Wealth
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1 John 3:17 — The Diagnostic of False Faith
Without divulging affairs, I am going through something like this right now. (And in this "economy, who isn't?) A man I know fell on very hard times, but is trying to get back in business. He took the money I had paid him to complete a job and used it to solve one of his problems. The immediate perspective seems like injustice. However, I really want him to succeed as much as he does. So, the money I had saved for personal things was instead used to invest in this man getting back on mission. (Sharing this probably makes no sense to the reader.) But, he is doing me a favor with his talents, and thanks to God Almighty, I can not only compensate him for his work, but I can walk a second mile with him so to say.
Saving for a rainy day? Remember Noah's Flood, I say.
That also includes sharing food, as we can read in The Word.
[end rant lol]
It would be more beneficial for money to go to him and his health rather than a mission.
Money scares me. The attitude of the saved is "He's got this". While it's not impossible for a rich person to do this, the much more likely outcome is "I've got this". The command to love your neighbor as yourself threatens the "I've got this" and is less likely to happen for the rich.
Rich is relative. I think others are rich. Someone poorer thinks that I am. Always give thanks for what God provides.
Money doesnt scare me, for it is just a medium of exchange and a way we assess the worth of different items and services. What does scare me however is what Human Beings will do to get money and to keep it when theyve got it.
We are knowingly destroying Gods creation to increase our wealth, not out of need , but out of selfishness and greed and we will willingly twist and corrupt our professed faith to justify our possession of Riches when Christ openly speaks of the Deceit of riches choking the word and preventing it from coming to fruition, Mark4:18-19, and that everything that men value being an abomination in the sight of God, Luke 16:13-15. And what do men value more than Wealth and Riches and the Power and comfort they bestow?.
Given that Christ said that many who believe in him, prophesy in his name, do many wonderful works and cast out Demons will be told "I never knew you, depart from me you that work iniquity", Matthew 7: 21-23, i wonder of any of us can be assured of our Salvation, but thats a whole other topic to discuss.
From the many quotes from Christ i've given showing the incompatibility of Faith and Riches, its not a question of "hes got this" or "Ive got this", but a question of just what weve got. We cannot claim to "Love our Neighbour as ourselves" and to "Treat others as we'd want to be treated" while we live in Wealth and Comfort and they suffer and die in Poverty.
That is true," Rich is relative", and the question of whether or not someone is Rich or not comes from our own subjective comparison to others, who we choose to compare ourselves with. I believe, seeing it is Gods world, that we should take a global perspective when assessing our relative "richness" or otherwise and when there are close to 1 billion people struggling to survive every day on a couple of $'s and hundreds of millions more lacking adequate food, clean water, housing, health and education provision, and when 15000-20000 children die every day from Malnutrition and preventable disease, then its clear to me that most of us living in the western developed nations are rich. The question then becomes, if i accept that Christ condemned the Rich , what am i going to do about it?. The answer is simple but so hard to put into practice, and is the answer Christ gave to the Rich man who asked him "What else must i do to inherit eternal life", to which Christ replied " Go and sell what you have and give to the poor and you will have Treasure in heaven, and come follow me". Will we be as the Rich man and go away sorrowful, for we have great possessions, or will we obey Christs words , give our all to the poor and come and follow him?.
And i readily admit my abysmal failure when it comes to doing this, i try to give more, i try to consume less, i try to love my neighbour as myself and recognise that my wealth and comfort is built upon their poverty and suffering. But i am a wretched sinner in need of Gods Grace, Mercy and Forgiveness and pray for the strength of faith to do more. But the first step in any act of confession and change is to recognise the wrong we are doing, and i believe that has been shown so clearly to me and that i must share this with others.
I was replying to your post on Dietrich Bonhoeffer and thought i'd check out more information on him and came across this "Continuing with this idea, Bonhoeffer discusses the idea of simple obedience.[71] He admonishes Christians who come too quickly to the conclusion that God could not possibly have meant his commands literally.[71]: 88 Bonhoeffer cites the example of the rich man who asks Jesus how he can enter the kingdom of heaven. He writes that people often simply assume that Jesus did not mean literally to leave everything and follow him and that instead it was a matter of faith or a command to be inwardly detached.[71]: 87–9 Bonhoeffer writes that God says exactly what he means and that Christians need to follow simple obedience to him by following divine commands as they are written.[71] He writes "only he who believes is obedient, and only he who is obedient believes".[71]: 69 ". I am not claiming Divine intervention here, but it was a coincidence to say the least.
As for "always give thanks for what God provides", i'm not sure if what we receive in this life is Gods direct provision or the result of a deeply unjust and corrupt political and economic system that puts the wealth of the many into the hands of the few, that God allows to continue. But whatever you believe to be the case, if as a result of Gods provision or the proceeds of an Evil world, you are Rich, then i believe that Christ commands that you give those riches away to the poor and store up Treasure in Heaven, or face condemnation.
Dave M
Loyal
money should scare everyone, with all the warnings about it from Gods word. It surly comes with many temptations and traps, snares. Jesus spoke on money a whole lot but few listen, or think it implies to them. God words say the love of money not even having it but loving it is evil. Now we have in America the dream of having so much money you can do what ever you want. Reminds me of the parable of the Big barns the guy built and thought he was going to live a life of pleasure, but God demanded his soul, and it did not sound like a good out outcome.
Do not be scared of money, for through money we can feed the hungry, give drink to the thirsty, clothe the naked , house the homeless, cure the sick and provide aid to the prisoner, in fact in Matthew 25: 31-40 Christ says that when we do this to the "least of these my Brethren, you have done it unto me", we can Minister and offer love and Compassion to our Lord and Saviour himself. And through these actions we not only diminish our Worldly Treasure, which is condemned by Christ, Matthew 6 :19-21, but build up Treasure in heaven. Mark 10:21. So do not fear Money but look upon all the good it can do if we have the Love of Christ within us. 1 John 3:17.
Christ says that the mere fact of being Rich will bar you from entering Heaven, Luke 18:24-25. For how can you be rich and Comfortable and still claim to be denying yourself and taking up your Cross, of living a life of sacrificial Love as Christ calls his followers to do? Matthew 16: 24-26?. how can you claim to Love your Neighbour as yourself and to treat others as youd want to be treated while you live in wealth and comfort and they suffer and die in poverty and despair.?
The "Dream of America", like the "Dream" of ALL the other wealthy nations of the world is built upon the oppression and exploitation of the poor, our comfort is their suffering, our riches are their poverty, our condemnation, Luke 6:24, is their Salvation Luke 6:20.
Yes, we make our plans, we offer our justifications, we rationalise our actions and we use human reasoning to justify our sinful human behaviour, when what we should be doing is building our lives not on the shifting sands of our own thoughts and prejudices, Matthew 7:26-27, but on the firm Rock of Christs Truth. Matthew 7 :24-25
What about the parable of the talents? I know it applies to all of God's gifts to us bearing fruit but riches are one of those gifts. I've been in the" God will provide" camp and He has provided but I never had interest or skills at growing riches. If I focused on growing riches and succeeded, my giving could be more.
Hannah1
Active
God clearly show with the woman and the talent and the rich man that it is about intent, and that you are not forced to give more than you have, and that you should give being glad in your heart meaning if it is by force, no. And then we have that everyone should put aside each week what everyone have decided in their heart. It is all about the heart. If you give and you don`t want to or hold on to it, what merit does it give you. And what merit does it give you if someone stands and tell you give a certain amount it is the same going nowhere. It is about the heart. I think God is talking about moderation. That it is not wrong to ALSO buy something to you, but that it is about moderation. And of course normal needs met etc. But it is what everyone decides in their heart. we all have different circumstances. So noone can say to another what they should or should not give but I think the key is moderation in your circumstances. I think it is about doing SOMETHING. what we CAN not what we can`t. You can`t expect to let the poor give money they gonna need for living for example there that is the woman with the talent again. what each can do. If one has a lot of money that is a given, a bigger share.
Hannah1
Active
I have never understood why the need to gather a lot of money. If it is not a purpose like buying your own place etc then I don`t understand it. Some things like that can be valid. But else, no point. Living comfortable in oid age well I guess that is another one, but on the other hand we can be gone tomorrow. A balance act. You don`t need the most fanciest place. Just comfortable. Never been into materialism. Simply no interest. I have never been the type who dream of all money I want. It has no interest. People can have a love of materials and money even if they have nothing. I think moderation is the key
Hannah1
Active
the situation in many countries considered rich, is the rents or mortgages are sky high, after paying rent or mortgage, utilites, tax, you are basically left with only food to live on if you are lucky a bit more. that is the situation for most of us, unless, you have a high paying job or work more than one. So rich, in that comarison, no
Hannah1
Active
In these times, many if not majority is trying to stay afloat. You cannot be out of touch with reality in regards to living cost. Don`t confuse the concept of global wealth percentiles with actual day-to-day financial security. Having your income swallowed up by skyrocketing rents, mortgages, and utility bills means you are experiencing relative poverty or living on the edge of it- regardless of how your life looks compared to a developing nation.
Comparing someone who is struggling to pay for basic groceries to someone in a developing country is a false equivalent. It is a form of spiritual gaslighting used to induce unearned guilt. True christian teaching emphasises meeting people where they are with empathy, not judging them from behind a keyboard.
It is also recommendable to check the church or charity`s spreadsheet, income and outgoings and transparency before giving to organisations, or, as an alternative, give directly to the ones to get help.
Comparing someone who is struggling to pay for basic groceries to someone in a developing country is a false equivalent. It is a form of spiritual gaslighting used to induce unearned guilt. True christian teaching emphasises meeting people where they are with empathy, not judging them from behind a keyboard.
It is also recommendable to check the church or charity`s spreadsheet, income and outgoings and transparency before giving to organisations, or, as an alternative, give directly to the ones to get help.
Twistie
Loyal
I get that i dont get like why does one stay in one place to collect a bunch of dead stuff that will eventually go in the trash..
i drive me hubby bonkers with my analogy Having money isnt sinful i mean look how rich Solomon was he took care of all the people that Abba entrusted him with.. did he fall yea but dont all if us with him lust of the eyes for the flesh took over..but still he was a very very rich man..ever wonder who got all them riches? I mean gold dont just disappear
There I go taking us on a side track
Hannah1
Active
Its in the intent. Salomon had a lot of responsibility. just think about how much his many wives cost him lol a whole kingdoms consumption in a day.. and immediately his whole town.. wow.I get that i dont get like why does one stay in one place to collect a bunch of dead stuff that will eventually go in the trash..
Having money isnt sinful i mean look how rich Solomon was he took care of all the people that Abba entrusted him with.. did he fall yea but dont all if us with him lust of the eyes for the flesh took over..but still he was a very very rich man..ever wonder who got all them riches? I mean gold dont just disappear
There I go taking us on a side track