Rev 21:2 New Jerusalem

[Trax]

Revelation 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Question: Does the New Jerusalem come all the way down to earth, or does it stay up in the air, as in an orbit?

Well, the Bible doesn't really say, so any opinion is just as valid as the next. I used to hold
to the idea that it stays up in the air, as in an orbit. Many people hold to this idea, for the same
reason I did. That is, its too big to fit on the earth. But the Bible doesn't say the new earth will
be the same size as the old earth. I now believe it comes all the way down to the earth.
Here is what I base my speculations on:
1. The Temple was more grand than the tabernacle they carried in the wilderness
2. Our new glorified bodies will be better than our current ones.
3. The New Jerusalem is much bigger and more grand than the current Jerusalem

So, will the new heaven and earth follow the same pattern?

Now, what's your idea on this?

 

[Bambi]

The problem with alot of interpretations of scripture people take one verse out of context and make it doctrine. New Jerusalem is not a very large city. If you go back to verse one you will see that New Jerusalem is actually the bride of Christ. It is also stated later in the chapter verses 9-11.

 

[B-A-C]

The problem with alot of interpretations of scripture people take one verse out of context and make it doctrine. New Jerusalem is not a very large city. If you go back to verse one you will see that New Jerusalem is actually the bride of Christ. It is also stated later in the chapter verses 9-11.

I would say that 1500 miles long, by 1500 miles wide, by 1500 miles tall is a fairly large city (that's bigger than most continents).
King James says 12,000 furlongs by 12,000 furlongs. (verse 16)

Is the New Jerusalem itself the bride? Or the people in it? I would ask if you consider current church buildings the body, or the people in them?

 

[Hekuran]

I've never before thought of the new Jerusalem as being in orbit - seems a strange idea to me...

I think of the passages of the Bible that describe what God will bring about in the new creation as a little like the attempt to explain the life of a butterfly to a caterpillar: we just don't have the mental equipment and concepts to comprehend what God will do. So the attempt to puzzle out how it will all work is not likely to be very successful.

We do know that God will do something glorious - that all nations will live in harmony, every tear will be wiped from every eye and we will live in perfect communion with God. For me, that is enough to give me hope through every situation in life. The location, architecture and dimensions I don't feel able even to hazard a guess at, and I don't feel confident that anybody has any real idea. I'm content to wait and see.

 

[james1523]

I would say that 1500 miles long, by 1500 miles wide, by 1500 miles tall is a fairly large city (that's bigger than most continents).
King James says 12,000 furlongs by 12,000 furlongs. (verse 16)

Is the New Jerusalem itself the bride? Or the people in it? I would ask if you consider current church buildings the body, or the people in them?

Revelation is highly symbolic, to believe the New Jerusalem is an actual city is also to believe that churches are actual lampstands and that there will be a literal dragon or serpent and literally a woman riding a beast. Revelation is a prophecy and like Daniel's dreams, is highly symbolic.

Our bodies are indwelt by the Spirit and are referred to as "temples" of the Spirit. Cities or buildings or temples are often symbolic references to the church. Believers are called "living stones".

A building emphasizes a collection of believers organised in such a way as to provide a home for the occupant and that occupant is God. Cities are for safety and security, so the New Jerusalem is where there is security and safety. The New Jerusalem is the Bride and the Bride is the Church, which is the people. The dimensions and appearance of the New Jerusalem emphasize its perfection and beauty in all respects. This is the perfected and glorified state of the church.
Only those lacking spiritual understanding and insight would say it is a physical building or place. The same ones that think church is the building not the people.

 

[NoHype]

The physical layout of the holy city on earth after Christ's return the Book of Ezekiel also gives (Ezek.40-48). It's the same city that Apostle John was shown. God's River will flow out of that sanctuary per Ezek.47 and flow into other waters upon the earth healing them. And on the sides of the River are the many trees bearing their fruits, i.e., the Tree of Life. Thus there is more detail about the city of Revelation 21 given in the Old Testament.

Since the holy city and oblation will extend out 60 mi. x 60 mi. on earth, and if its center is where Jerusalem is today, that would mean its borders go out into the Mediterranean sea, signifying at Christ's coming there's going to be some earth changes already prior to the new heavens and a new earth.

In Isaiah 65 where the idea of a "new earth" is first mentioned, the Hebrew root word 'chadash' for "new" means 'to rebuild'. The Greek 'kainos' for "new" in 2 Pet.3:13 also applies to 'freshness' and not a completely new earth. Peter's Message in 2 Pet.3 also gives us this point, because he is comparing God's previous destructions upon the earth with water vs. the future destruction upon this earth by fire and the new heavens and a new earth.

Also, the word "elements" in 2 Pet.3:10 does not mean earthly elements like matter; per the Greek it means an orderly arrangement, like a world age. That means Peter's subject is the change between world ages upon this earth with the same earth being cleansed in between, and not newly created again as God did at the first.

 

[james1523]

The physical layout of the holy city on earth after Christ's return the Book of Ezekiel also gives (Ezek.40-48). It's the same city that Apostle John was shown. God's River will flow out of that sanctuary per Ezek.47 and flow into other waters upon the earth healing them. And on the sides of the River are the many trees bearing their fruits, i.e., the Tree of Life. Thus there is more detail about the city of Revelation 21 given in the Old Testament.

Since the holy city and oblation will extend out 60 mi. x 60 mi. on earth, and if its center is where Jerusalem is today, that would mean its borders go out into the Mediterranean sea, signifying at Christ's coming there's going to be some earth changes already prior to the new heavens and a new earth.

In Isaiah 65 where the idea of a "new earth" is first mentioned, the Hebrew root word 'chadash' for "new" means 'to rebuild'. The Greek 'kainos' for "new" in 2 Pet.3:13 also applies to 'freshness' and not a completely new earth. Peter's Message in 2 Pet.3 also gives us this point, because he is comparing God's previous destructions upon the earth with water vs. the future destruction upon this earth by fire and the new heavens and a new earth.

Also, the word "elements" in 2 Pet.3:10 does not mean earthly elements like matter; per the Greek it means an orderly arrangement, like a world age. That means Peter's subject is the change between world ages upon this earth with the same earth being cleansed in between, and not newly created again as God did at the first.

If they are literally physical things it will be a marvellous sight, but these are most likely all symbolic. In future there is no actual tree of life and there is no giant building coming from the sky to land on Earth. The Tree of Life is clearly Jesus Christ ( See the sermon "Christ the Tree of Life" by C.H. Spurgeon. ), and the New Jerusalem is the Bride of Christ or glorified Church (Rev 21:2, 2 Cor 11:2-3). It makes no sense for God to get rid of one shadow (Old Jerusalem, temple, etc), only to replace it with another shadow. In the New Testament the church has replaced the earthly temple in Jerusalem or "house of God", and the church also replaces the city of Jerusalem in the future. In Revelation 21, the New Jerusalem is spoken of in human terms. God is not preparing a physical bricks and mortar building to come down from the sky. He is preparing His people, like living stones - 1 Peter 2:5.

 

[NoHype]

If they are literally physical things it will be a marvellous sight, but these are most likely all symbolic. In future there is no actual tree of life and there is no giant building coming from the sky to land on Earth. The Tree of Life is clearly Jesus Christ ( See the sermon "Christ the Tree of Life" by C.H. Spurgeon. ), and the New Jerusalem is the Bride of Christ or glorified Church (Rev 21:2, 2 Cor 11:2-3). It makes no sense for God to get rid of one shadow (Old Jerusalem, temple, etc), only to replace it with another shadow. In the New Testament the church has replaced the earthly temple in Jerusalem or "house of God", and the church also replaces the city of Jerusalem in the future. In Revelation 21, the New Jerusalem is spoken of in human terms. God is not preparing a physical bricks and mortar building to come down from the sky. He is preparing His people, like living stones - 1 Peter 2:5.

And what doctrine is that? because it's not what my Bible reveals. You have obviously been listening to some men that don't know what they're talking about.


Ezek 47:1-12
1 Afterward he brought me again unto the door of the house; and, behold, waters issued out from under the threshold of the house eastward: for the forefront of the house stood toward the east, and the waters came down from under from the right side of the house, at the south side of the altar.
2 Then brought he me out of the way of the gate northward, and led me about the way without unto the utter gate by the way that looketh eastward; and, behold, there ran out waters on the right side.
3 And when the man that had the line in his hand went forth eastward, he measured a thousand cubits, and he brought me through the waters; the waters were to the ancles.
4 Again he measured a thousand, and brought me through the waters; the waters were to the knees. Again he measured a thousand, and brought me through; the waters were to the loins.
5 Afterward he measured a thousand; and it was a river that I could not pass over: for the waters were risen, waters to swim in, a river that could not be passed over.
6 And he said unto me, Son of man, hast thou seen this? Then he brought me, and caused me to return to the brink of the river.
7 Now when I had returned, behold, at the bank of the river were very many trees on the one side and on the other.
8 Then said he unto me, These waters issue out toward the east country, and go down into the desert, and go into the sea: which being brought forth into the sea, the waters shall be healed.
9 And it shall come to pass, that every thing that liveth, which moveth, whithersoever the rivers shall come, shall live: and there shall be a very great multitude of fish, because these waters shall come thither: for they shall be healed; and every thing shall live whither the river cometh.
10 And it shall come to pass, that the fishers shall stand upon it from Engedi even unto Eneglaim; they shall be a place to spread forth nets; their fish shall be according to their kinds, as the fish of the great sea, exceeding many.
11 But the miry places thereof and the marishes thereof shall not be healed; they shall be given to salt.
12 And by the river upon the bank thereof, on this side and on that side, shall grow all trees for meat, whose leaf shall not fade, neither shall the fruit thereof be consumed: it shall bring forth new fruit according to his months, because their waters they issued out of the sanctuary: and the fruit thereof shall be for meat, and the leaf thereof for medicine.
(KJV)

Engedi and Eneglaim are places on the earth, in the holy lands.

God's River of the waters of Life will be a real manifestation upon this earth, as also the Tree of Life bearing its many fruits according to its months.


God showed us all the way back in Genesis 2 about that River...

Gen 2:10-14
10 And a river went out of Eden to water the garden; and from thence it was parted, and became into four heads.
11 The name of the first is Pison: that is it which compasseth the whole land of Havilah, where there is gold;
12 And the gold of that land is good: there is bdellium and the onyx stone.
13 And the name of the second river is Gihon: the same is it that compasseth the whole land of Ethiopia.
14 And the name of the third river is Hiddekel: that is it which goeth toward the east of Assyria. And the fourth river is Euphrates.
(KJV)

The Hiddekel (Tigris) and Euphrates rivers still exist on earth today in the middle east, in Iraq. Clearly that River out of God's Eden has not been upon this earth for this present world. But it is prophesied to return.


This is also what this subject is about involving the Tree of Life manifested on earth after Christ's second coming...

Rev 22:14-15
14 Blessed are they that do His commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
(KJV)

Outside the gates of that city during Christ's future Millennium reign, will be those "dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie." That is a direct pointer to the time of Christ's future "thousand years" reign on earth, because those wicked at that point are not yet shown to be cast into the "lake of fire" per Rev.20.

 

[NoHype]

I've warned brethren before about adopting men's doctrines that seek to change the simplicity that is God's Word, especially doctrines like Preterism and Historicism which didn't creep into the Church until many later centuries. What I have yet to mention is how those doctrines are being used by Satan's workers here on earth today to deceive as many as will into thinking that what we 'see' today is what we get involving God's promised Salvation through His Son.

Full Preterism teaches that Christ's second coming already happened in the Apostle's days, or that His second coming is spiritual-symbolic only, and not literal. That's a false doctrine of men who want to rule over and control the earth today. They don't want anyone in their way, especially not God and His Son. Those who formulated those doctrines instead are supporting the coming Antichrist who is to come prior to our Lord Jesus' return, for the devil himself has always wanted to sit in God's Place since his original rebellion.

 

[james1523]

And what doctrine is that? because it's not what my Bible reveals. You have obviously been listening to some men that don't know what they're talking about.


Ezek 47:1-12
1 Afterward he brought me again unto the door of the house; and, behold, waters issued out from under the threshold of the house eastward: for the forefront of the house stood toward the east, and the waters came down from under from the right side of the house, at the south side of the altar.
2 Then brought he me out of the way of the gate northward, and led me about the way without unto the utter gate by the way that looketh eastward; and, behold, there ran out waters on the right side.
3 And when the man that had the line in his hand went forth eastward, he measured a thousand cubits, and he brought me through the waters; the waters were to the ancles.
4 Again he measured a thousand, and brought me through the waters; the waters were to the knees. Again he measured a thousand, and brought me through; the waters were to the loins.
5 Afterward he measured a thousand; and it was a river that I could not pass over: for the waters were risen, waters to swim in, a river that could not be passed over.
6 And he said unto me, Son of man, hast thou seen this? Then he brought me, and caused me to return to the brink of the river.
7 Now when I had returned, behold, at the bank of the river were very many trees on the one side and on the other.
8 Then said he unto me, These waters issue out toward the east country, and go down into the desert, and go into the sea: which being brought forth into the sea, the waters shall be healed.
9 And it shall come to pass, that every thing that liveth, which moveth, whithersoever the rivers shall come, shall live: and there shall be a very great multitude of fish, because these waters shall come thither: for they shall be healed; and every thing shall live whither the river cometh.
10 And it shall come to pass, that the fishers shall stand upon it from Engedi even unto Eneglaim; they shall be a place to spread forth nets; their fish shall be according to their kinds, as the fish of the great sea, exceeding many.
11 But the miry places thereof and the marishes thereof shall not be healed; they shall be given to salt.
12 And by the river upon the bank thereof, on this side and on that side, shall grow all trees for meat, whose leaf shall not fade, neither shall the fruit thereof be consumed: it shall bring forth new fruit according to his months, because their waters they issued out of the sanctuary: and the fruit thereof shall be for meat, and the leaf thereof for medicine.
(KJV)

Engedi and Eneglaim are places on the earth, in the holy lands.

God's River of the waters of Life will be a real manifestation upon this earth, as also the Tree of Life bearing its many fruits according to its months.


God showed us all the way back in Genesis 2 about that River...

Gen 2:10-14
10 And a river went out of Eden to water the garden; and from thence it was parted, and became into four heads.
11 The name of the first is Pison: that is it which compasseth the whole land of Havilah, where there is gold;
12 And the gold of that land is good: there is bdellium and the onyx stone.
13 And the name of the second river is Gihon: the same is it that compasseth the whole land of Ethiopia.
14 And the name of the third river is Hiddekel: that is it which goeth toward the east of Assyria. And the fourth river is Euphrates.
(KJV)

The Hiddekel (Tigris) and Euphrates rivers still exist on earth today in the middle east, in Iraq. Clearly that River out of God's Eden has not been upon this earth for this present world. But it is prophesied to return.


This is also what this subject is about involving the Tree of Life manifested on earth after Christ's second coming...

Rev 22:14-15
14 Blessed are they that do His commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
(KJV)

Outside the gates of that city during Christ's future Millennium reign, will be those "dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie." That is a direct pointer to the time of Christ's future "thousand years" reign on earth, because those wicked at that point are not yet shown to be cast into the "lake of fire" per Rev.20.

The Book of Revelation is a prophetic vision. Prophetic visions are full of imagery and symbolism. I can quickly show that the New Jerusalem is the church and not a physical city or structure:

Revelation 21:2, 9-11 says the Bride, the wife of the Lamb (Christ) is the New Jerusalem:
Rev 21:2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband.
Rev 21:9-11
9 One of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues came and said to me, “Come, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb.”10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a mountain great and high, and showed me the Holy City, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God.


The following verses show that the church, God's people, is to be "married" to Christ:

Isaiah 54:5 For your Maker is your husband, the Lord of hosts is his name; and the Holy One of Israel is your Redeemer, the God of the whole earth he is called.
2 Cor 11:2 For I feel a divine jealousy for you, since I betrothed you to one husband, to present you as a pure virgin to Christ.
Eph 5:25-27 25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her26 to make her holy,cleansing[a] her by the washing with water through the word,27 and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless.
Rev 19:7-9 Let us rejoice and exult and give him the glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and his Bride has made herself ready; it was granted her to clothe herself with fine linen, bright and pure”— for the fine linen is the righteous deeds of the saints. And the angel said to me, “Write this: Blessed are those who are invited to the marriage supper of the Lamb.” And he said to me, “These are the true words of God


Therefore the New Jerusalem is the Bride of Christ which is the Church.

Regarding trees... trees are very symbolic in the Bible.
Jesus called himself a vine (tree):
John 15:5 I am the vine; you are the branches.




Jesus called himself the life:
John 14:6 - Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Referring to people as trees is common in the Bible:
Isaiah 61:3 - To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the LORD, that he might be glorified.

Ezekiel 17:24 - And all the trees of the field shall know that I the LORD have brought down the high tree, have exalted the low tree, have dried up the green tree, and have made the dry tree to flourish: I the LORD have spoken and have done [it].

Isaiah 11:1-16 - And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:

The tree of life is also God's Word, and we know that God's Word is Christ (John 1):
Proverbs 15:4 - A wholesome tongue [is] a tree of life: but perverseness therein [is] a breach in the spirit.


So we can say that the Tree of Life is Christ. Christians will be looking to Christ for their life, not trees. Tree worshippers are pagans.

Matthew Henry concise commentary says "This tree was an emblem of Christ, and of all the blessings of his salvation; and the leaves for the healing of the nations, mean that his favour and presence supply all good to the inhabitants of that blessed world. "

Now what is the river?

Rev 22:1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.

As Rev 22:1 indicates, the river of life, represents the Holy Spirit, who proceeds from the Father (throne of God) and the Son (Lamb), as also stated in the Nicene Creed.

 

[NoHype]

The Book of Revelation is a prophetic vision. Prophetic visions are full of imagery and symbolism. I can quickly show that the New Jerusalem is the church and not a physical city or structure:

And God's Word has already shown that the New Jerusalem will be a literal city upon the earth. There's no way to turn that into symbolism using God's Word. It's men's doctrines that try to do that in order to try and change what God's Word reveals. The fact that Ezekiel 40 through 48 reveals a literal physical layout of the holy city on earth anchors what the New Jerusalem is in Revelation when it comes down out of Heaven to this earth.

Furthermore, statements like Revelation is full of imagery and symbolism as some kind of tool to try and change the literal objects or events that God's Word uses symbology and metaphor for is to treat those things like some pagan mystic mumbo-jumbo abstraction outside reality. James, aren't you aware of how pagan mysticism crept into the Church centuries ago from Gnostic influences, especially at the school in Alexandria, Egypt? One of the main things the pagan mystery schools did was to mask the physical things of the earth using images and symbols so as to hide it from those they deemed profane (but they really meant the uninitiated into their doctrines)? Those pagan priests did that for the purpose of mass control over the minds of the peoples. Only one who petitioned to join their group would be offered a probation period as a neophyte before they would divulge the real meaning of their imagery and symbols. That is not how God uses imagery and symbols in His Word though.

This is why we can go to Ezekiel 40-48 and read more detail about the holy city of Revelation, in greater detail.

Ezek 40:1-2
1 In the five and twentieth year of our captivity, in the beginning of the year, in the tenth day of the month, in the fourteenth year after that the city was smitten, in the selfsame day the hand of the LORD was upon me, and brought me thither.
2 In the visions of God brought He me into the land of Israel, and set me upon a very high mountain, by which was as the frame of a city on the south.
(KJV)

Rev 21:10
10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
(KJV)

Ezekiel and Apostle John were both seeing the same holy city by vision. In the Ezekiel version we are shown the city in "the land of Israel". Both Ezekiel and John were in the spirit taken to a high mountain overlooking the holy city. In the Revelation version there's no indication where the holy city comes down out of Heaven to. In the Ezekiel version there is.

When God uses symbols, allegory, metaphor, parable, etc., in His Word, it's to convey more information to the reader about real things or events, to make it easier... for the reader to understand. Those symbols will always point to something real in His Word most often with the details given in another Book or chapter. He doesn't leave us hanging to guess. That's why Book by Book, chapter by chapter, line upon line Bible study is important.

Revelation 21:2, 9-11 says the Bride, the wife of the Lamb (Christ) is the New Jerusalem:
Rev 21:2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband.
Rev 21:9-11
9 One of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues came and said to me, “Come, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb.”10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a mountain great and high, and showed me the Holy City, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God.


The following verses show that the church, God's people, is to be "married" to Christ:

Isaiah 54:5 For your Maker is your husband, the Lord of hosts is his name; and the Holy One of Israel is your Redeemer, the God of the whole earth he is called.
2 Cor 11:2 For I feel a divine jealousy for you, since I betrothed you to one husband, to present you as a pure virgin to Christ.
Eph 5:25-27 25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her26 to make her holy,cleansing[a] her by the washing with water through the word,27 and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless.
Rev 19:7-9 Let us rejoice and exult and give him the glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and his Bride has made herself ready; it was granted her to clothe herself with fine linen, bright and pure”— for the fine linen is the righteous deeds of the saints. And the angel said to me, “Write this: Blessed are those who are invited to the marriage supper of the Lamb.” And he said to me, “These are the true words of God


Therefore the New Jerusalem is the Bride of Christ which is the Church.

This is why line upon line Bible study is important. You missed an important matter about that Isaiah 54 prophecy by not continuing to read there:

Isa 54:10-13
10 For the mountains shall depart, and the hills be removed; but My kindness shall not depart from thee, neither shall the covenant of My peace be removed, saith the LORD That hath mercy on thee.
11 O thou afflicted, tossed with tempest, and not comforted, behold, I will lay thy stones with fair colours, and lay thy foundations with sapphires.
12 And I will make thy windows of agates, and thy gates of carbuncles, and all thy borders of pleasant stones.
13 And all thy children shall be taught of the LORD; and great shall be the peace of thy children.
(KJV)

That part in Isaiah 54 is referring to the city of Jerusalem when God saves her, for in Ezekiel 16 He said He married Jerusalem...

Ezek 16:8
8 Now when I passed by thee, and looked upon thee, behold, thy time was the time of love; and I spread My skirt over thee, and covered thy nakedness: yea, I sware unto thee, and entered into a covenant with thee, saith the Lord GOD, and thou becamest Mine.
(KJV)

Ezek 16:29-46
29 Thou hast moreover multiplied thy fornication in the land of Canaan unto Chaldea; and yet thou wast not satisfied herewith.
30 How weak is thine heart, saith the Lord GOD, seeing thou doest all these things, the work of an imperious whorish woman;
31 In that thou buildest thine eminent place in the head of every way, and makest thine high place in every street; and hast not been as an harlot, in that thou scornest hire;
32 But as a wife that committeth adultery, which taketh strangers instead of her husband!
33 They give gifts to all ******: but thou givest thy gifts to all thy lovers, and hirest them, that they may come unto thee on every side for thy whoredom.
34 And the contrary is in thee from other women in thy whoredoms, whereas none followeth thee to commit whoredoms: and in that thou givest a reward, and no reward is given unto thee, therefore thou art contrary.
35 Wherefore, O harlot, hear the word of the LORD:
36 Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thy filthiness was poured out, and thy nakedness discovered through thy whoredoms with thy lovers, and with all the idols of thy abominations, and by the blood of thy children, which thou didst give unto them;
37 Behold, therefore I will gather all thy lovers, with whom thou hast taken pleasure, and all them that thou hast loved, with all them that thou hast hated; I will even gather them round about against thee, and will discover thy nakedness unto them, that they may see all thy nakedness.
38 And I will judge thee, as women that break wedlock and shed blood are judged; and I will give thee blood in fury and jealousy.
39 And I will also give thee into their hand, and they shall throw down thine eminent place, and shall break down thy high places: they shall strip thee also of thy clothes, and shall take thy fair jewels, and leave thee naked and bare.
40 They shall also bring up a company against thee, and they shall stone thee with stones, and thrust thee through with their swords.
41 And they shall burn thine houses with fire, and execute judgments upon thee in the sight of many women: and I will cause thee to cease from playing the harlot, and thou also shalt give no hire any more.
42 So will I make My fury toward thee to rest, and My jealousy shall depart from thee, and I will be quiet, and will be no more angry.
43 Because thou hast not remembered the days of thy youth, but hast fretted Me in all these things; behold, therefore I also will recompense thy way upon thine head, saith the Lord GOD: and thou shalt not commit this lewdness above all thine abominations.
44 Behold, every one that useth proverbs shall use this proverb against thee, saying, As is the mother, so is her daughter.
45 Thou art thy mother's daughter, that lotheth her husband and her children; and thou art the sister of thy sisters, which lothed their husbands and their children: your mother was an Hittite, and your father an Amorite.
46 And thine elder sister is Samaria, she and her daughters that dwell at thy left hand: and thy younger sister, that dwelleth at thy right hand, is Sodom and her daughters.
(KJV)

No mistaking that God is talking about having married Jerusalem there, and how Jerusalem has played the harlot against Him for this present world.

Thus the Revelation 21:9-10 Scripture is definitely about Jerusalem as the "bride, the Lamb's Wife". In Isaiah 54 the concept of marriage is being applied TWO different ways.

1. the Isaiah 54:1-7 Scripture is mostly about God's people compared as virgins that are either found still chaste and without child, or unchaste and with child, all in the spiritual sense. To remain barren means to stay "a chaste virgin" waiting on Christ's return instead of falling away in false worship to spiritually marry the coming Antichrist, i.e., the "another Jesus" (2 Cor.11).

2. but Isaiah 54:2, and especially Isaiah 54:11 onward is about the city of Jerusalem, its tents being enlarged to include the believing Gentiles, thus the holy city breaking forth on the right hand and left hand, which is a border expansion type comparison between the coming New Jerusalem and the Jerusalem today.

So the Isaiah 54 chapter is actually covering a dual concept about spiritual marriage to God, one for His servants that remain faithful, and another emphatically to Jerusalem related to Ezekiel 16, the place He chose to put His Name there. In the very last phrase of Ezekiel 48, it says the name of the city then will be (in Hebrew Yahaveh-Shamah), which means "The LORD is there".

Regarding trees... trees are very symbolic in the Bible.
Jesus called himself a vine (tree):
John 15:5 I am the vine; you are the branches.




Jesus called himself the life:
John 14:6 - Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Referring to people as trees is common in the Bible:
Isaiah 61:3 - To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the LORD, that he might be glorified.

Ezekiel 17:24 - And all the trees of the field shall know that I the LORD have brought down the high tree, have exalted the low tree, have dried up the green tree, and have made the dry tree to flourish: I the LORD have spoken and have done [it].

Isaiah 11:1-16 - And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:

The tree of life is also God's Word, and we know that God's Word is Christ (John 1):
Proverbs 15:4 - A wholesome tongue [is] a tree of life: but perverseness therein [is] a breach in the spirit.

Yes I understand how God sometimes uses the tree as a metaphor in His Word. That doesn't mean we can go applying all mention of a tree in His Word to be nothing but a symbol. It's the Biblical context of the subject that determines when He is using the tree as a symbol for something else. We don't find that context with the explanations shown in Genesis 2 & 3 and Revelation about the Tree of Life. And when Ezekiel 47 and Revelation 22 speak of the Tree of Life and its fruits for meat and leaves for medicine in relation to a specific locale on earth it's easy to know that is not being given as a symbolic metaphor, especially when it is linked with God's River of Gen.2 and Ezekiel 47 which is also literal.

 

[james1523]

And God's Word has already shown that the New Jerusalem will be a literal city upon the earth. There's no way to turn that into symbolism using God's Word. It's men's doctrines that try to do that in order to try and change what God's Word reveals. The fact that Ezekiel 40 through 48 reveals a literal physical layout of the holy city on earth anchors what the New Jerusalem is in Revelation when it comes down out of Heaven to this earth.

It is definitely a literal city. I don't disagree. But my point is that it is not a city of bricks and mortar, like the Old (current) Jerusalem. The church is the people not the building. The New Jerusalem is the people not the physical city - it is the Church in her transformed, glorified and immortalized state. Not a physical building made of bricks and mortar. The Bible reveals that the New Jerusalem is Christ's Bride. Christ will not "marry" a bricks and mortar building. God has never really been interested in building physical temples or buildings, only in building His people:
1 Peter 2:5 says "you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.
Eph 2:22 "And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit."

Furthermore, statements like Revelation is full of imagery and symbolism as some kind of tool to try and change the literal objects or events that God's Word uses symbology and metaphor for is to treat those things like some pagan mystic mumbo-jumbo abstraction outside reality. James, aren't you aware of how pagan mysticism crept into the Church centuries ago from Gnostic influences, especially at the school in Alexandria, Egypt? One of the main things the pagan mystery schools did was to mask the physical things of the earth using images and symbols so as to hide it from those they deemed profane (but they really meant the uninitiated into their doctrines)? Those pagan priests did that for the purpose of mass control over the minds of the peoples. Only one who petitioned to join their group would be offered a probation period as a neophyte before they would divulge the real meaning of their imagery and symbols. That is not how God uses imagery and symbols in His Word though.

Tree of life is a common idea in almost all religions including paganism. However only Christianity would say that the tree of life is Christ.
All other religions say the tree of life is anything else, but Christ.
Paganism contains an element of worshiping the creation instead of the Creator. There is nothing pagan about trees representing Christ. However, an idea that trees give life, apart from Christ, seems more of a pagan idea to me.

Revelation is full of imagery and symbolism because it's a vision. For example when God showed Peter a vision of unclean animals, it was to show him that Gentiles are clean.
Revelation says there is a Lamb on the throne, but we know it is not actually a Lamb, it is symbolic for Christ.
I don't believe there will literally be women riding beasts and big red dragons (Revelation).
I don't believe Daniel's visions meant there were actual statues of clay and iron coming to destroy nations.
These are all symbolic for kingdoms, nations, kings, people.
If we fail to see the meaning of the symbols we'll miss the true meaning.

Yes I understand how God sometimes uses the tree as a metaphor in His Word. That doesn't mean we can go applying all mention of a tree in His Word to be nothing but a symbol. It's the Biblical context of the subject that determines when He is using the tree as a symbol for something else. We don't find that context with the explanations shown in Genesis 2 & 3 and Revelation about the Tree of Life. And when Ezekiel 47 and Revelation 22 speak of the Tree of Life and its fruits for meat and leaves for medicine in relation to a specific locale on earth it's easy to know that is not being given as a symbolic metaphor, especially when it is linked with God's River of Gen.2 and Ezekiel 47 which is also literal.

It's very simple. Christ said He was the life. This life is eternal life (John 17:3). We know that eating of the tree of life gives eternal life (Genesis and Revelation). Therefore the Tree of Life is Christ. 1 John 5:12 says "whoever has the Son" has life. Not "whoever has the Tree of Life", has life.
There is no other source of eternal life - other than Christ.
Jesus did not say we eat trees to get life. Jesus said we must eat His flesh and drink His blood to have life:
John 6:53 says "Jesus said to them, "Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.
This also confirms that Christ is the Tree of Life - We eat the Tree of Life to gain life, we eat Christ to gain life, therefore the Tree of Life is Christ.

All false doctrines and practices start when we put the emphasis away from Christ and onto other things such as trees, rocks, buildings, bread, wine. etc. These created things have no life in themselves. And the use of these created things as symbols, is to better explain to us the spiritual truth behind them. For example, the Catholics put emphasis on the bread and wine because they believe they are actually Christ's body and blood. So it becomes more about the bread and wine than the meaning which the bread and wine conveys.
Similarly if we believe the tree of life is some actual tree and not Christ, we may be in danger of tree worship, which is essentially pagan. Some Christians already worship trees at Christmas time.

Notice that Christ is also referred to as a rock:
1 Cor 10:4 "and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ."

 

[NoHype]

It is definitely a literal city. I don't disagree. But my point is that it is not a city of bricks and mortar, like the Old (current) Jerusalem. The church is the people not the building. The New Jerusalem is the people not the physical city - it is the Church in her transformed, glorified and immortalized state. Not a physical building made of bricks and mortar. The Bible reveals that the New Jerusalem is Christ's Bride. Christ will not "marry" a bricks and mortar building. God has never really been interested in building physical temples or buildings, only in building His people:
1 Peter 2:5 says "you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.
Eph 2:22 "And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit."

You're right about how Apostles Paul and Peter used the spiritual building concept for Christ's Church, but your wrong about the New Jerusalem not being a literal layout of a city upon the earth made by God Himself. The Millennium layout in Ezekiel proves that beyond any shadow of a doubt. The New Jerusalem will even have walls around it which was revealed in Revelation also, including gates like earthly Jerusalem has had through its history.

Tree of life is a common idea in almost all religions including paganism. However only Christianity would say that the tree of life is Christ.
All other religions say the tree of life is anything else, but Christ.
Paganism contains an element of worshiping the creation instead of the Creator. There is nothing pagan about trees representing Christ. However, an idea that trees give life, apart from Christ, seems more of a pagan idea to me.

Pagan's concept about that Tree is just that, a false pagan concept that attempts to mimic or replace the real Tree of Life in God's Garden of Eden. Satan wants to be God too, and worshiped as God, but that doesn't mean God is some allegory. So that's a very weak argument you used there to try and disprove the Tree of Life is not about actual trees as shown in Ezekiel 47 and Revelation 22.

Revelation is full of imagery and symbolism because it's a vision.

Here we go again. You've already used that statement once already, and it proves nothing. God's Word defines when something is an allegory according to the context of the Scripture. Whole lot of stuff in Revelation is not imagery and symbolism. Do you think Christ's coming in Rev.19 is an allegory, just because He showed that to John by vision?

For example when God showed Peter a vision of unclean animals, it was to show him that Gentiles are clean.

Yes, yes, I'm well aware that God was not really telling Peter there to eat unclean meats, but was giving it as a symbolic metaphor about Gentiles.

Revelation says there is a Lamb on the throne, but we know it is not actually a Lamb, it is symbolic for Christ.

Yes, we know the Lamb slain is a symbol used for our Lord Jesus Christ. Still does not prove the New Jerusalem won't be a literal city, nor does it disprove that God's River and the Tree of Life in Revelation is not actual.

OK, now it's my turn.

These are not given as allegories concerning God's River and the Tree of Life...

Rev 22:1-2
1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
(KJV)


Ezek 47:12
12 And by the river upon the bank thereof, on this side and on that side, shall grow all trees for meat, whose leaf shall not fade, neither shall the fruit thereof be consumed: it shall bring forth new fruit according to his months, because their waters they issued out of the sanctuary: and the fruit thereof shall be for meat, and the leaf thereof for medicine.
(KJV)

With symbols like Christ as The Lamb, and Peter being given a vision of a blanket of animals to represent Gentiles, those are easy to grasp as symbolism. But when God's River is described in association with a specific locale upon the earth per Ezek.47, even areas like Engedi where we know is a real location, we can be assured He is not giving symbolism.

Likewise with the Tree of Life which Ezek.47 gives us more info about, for it is actually about many trees along the sides of God's River that flows out from His Throne. Yet those trees are very different than fruit trees today, for those will continue to bear fruit year round with their leaves never fading.

 

[james1523]

You're right about how Apostles Paul and Peter used the spiritual building concept for Christ's Church, but your wrong about the New Jerusalem not being a literal layout of a city upon the earth made by God Himself. The Millennium layout in Ezekiel proves that beyond any shadow of a doubt. The New Jerusalem will even have walls around it which was revealed in Revelation also, including gates like earthly Jerusalem has had through its history.

Gal 4:26 says "But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all." - so according to your doctrine, the building is free and our mother?, which makes no sense.

According to your (strange?) doctrine, Christ will marry a building? (Rev 21:2). I think when God says Jerusalem, He means the people, not the building. What is a city without the people? The Bible says Christ will marry His bride, it also says the bride is the New Jerusalem, therefore the New Jerusalem is the Church.

The purpose of a walled city is mainly to provide protection. Revelation says the gates of the city are never shut. So what is the purpose if its walls, if the gates are always open? If all the evil has been dealt with, why is there a need to live in a walled city at all? An answer is, that a physical city would serve no practical purpose, and that the New Jerusalem as a physical building is purely symbolic.

Even the layout and dimensions are symbolic: Rev. 21:17 says the walls are 144 cubits wide. 144 is 12 times 12, representing 12 tribes of Israel and 12 apostles of Christ. The number 12 is highly symbolic. The 4 sides , North, South, East, West, mean that the New Jerusalem will receive all of God's people, from the 12 tribes of Israel from all corners of the Earth. The dimensions of the city are 12,000 stadia cubed. Again the number 12. The number 12 in the bible represents perfection. So it is 1000 times perfection in all aspects.

It is easy to connect this with Eph 5:27:
Eph 5:27 "He did this to present her to himself as a glorious church without a spot or wrinkle or any other blemish. Instead, she will be holy and without fault."

God is not preparing and perfecting a building to "marry Christ". He is preparing and perfecting His Church. I think the emphasis from Genesis to Revelation has always been about His people, and not some heavenly physical mega-structure.


Further support for the view that the New Jerusalem is the Church is provided by 3 Bible commentaries on Rev 21:2
Matthew Henry: "This new Jerusalem is the church of God in its new and perfect state, the church triumphant. "

Pulpit Commentary: "The holy city" is the Church of God (see on Revelation 11:2), now glorified and prepared for perfect communion with her Redeemer (cf. the promise in Rev 3:12, which is now fulfilled; cf. also Gal 4:26, Heb 11:10, 16).

Gill: "And I John saw the holy city,.... The same with the beloved city in Rev 20:9 the church of God: sometimes the church militant is called a city, of which the saints are now fellow citizens, governed by wholesome laws, and enjoying many privileges; but here the general assembly and church of the firstborn, or all the elect of God, are intended, the whole body and society of them, being as a city, compact together; "

"new Jerusalem; the church of God, both in the Old and New Testament, is often called Jerusalem"

Pagan's concept about that Tree is just that, a false pagan concept that attempts to mimic or replace the real Tree of Life in God's Garden of Eden. Satan wants to be God too, and worshiped as God, but that doesn't mean God is some allegory. So that's a very weak argument you used there to try and disprove the Tree of Life is not about actual trees as shown in Ezekiel 47and Revelation 22.

Genesis 1-3 was likely to be a vision of the past, and Ezekiel 47 and Revelation 22 are both visions of the future, and there is no mention of any literal "tree of life" between Matthew and Revelation, which leads me to believe that the tree of life is symbolic of the real life source - Christ.

Here we go again. You've already used that statement once already, and it proves nothing. God's Word defines when something is an allegory according to the context of the Scripture. Whole lot of stuff in Revelation is not imagery and symbolism. Do you think Christ's coming in Rev.19 is an allegory, just because He showed that to John by vision?

How many sources of eternal life are there in the universe? According to your doctrine, you must believe there are two sources of eternal life - tree of life, and Christ. But the New Testament from Matthew up to Revelation, overwhelmingly emphasizes Christ as Life. No where does it say the tree of life is our life, or that the tree of life gives life, between Matthew and Revelation. Therefore the vision in Revelation and Ezekiel of the tree of life must be about Christ.

Yes, we know the Lamb slain is a symbol used for our Lord Jesus Christ. Still does not prove the New Jerusalem won't be a literal city, nor does it disprove that God's River and the Tree of Life in Revelation is not actual.

OK, now it's my turn.

These are not given as allegories concerning God's River and the Tree of Life...

Rev 22:1-2
1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
(KJV)


Ezek 47:12
12 And by the river upon the bank thereof, on this side and on that side, shall grow all trees for meat, whose leaf shall not fade, neither shall the fruit thereof be consumed: it shall bring forth new fruit according to his months, because their waters they issued out of the sanctuary: and the fruit thereof shall be for meat, and the leaf thereof for medicine.
(KJV)

With symbols like Christ as The Lamb, and Peter being given a vision of a blanket of animals to represent Gentiles, those are easy to grasp as symbolism. But when God's River is described in association with a specific locale upon the earth per Ezek.47, even areas like Engedi where we know is a real location, we can be assured He is not giving symbolism.

Likewise with the Tree of Life which Ezek.47 gives us more info about, for it is actually about many trees along the sides of God's River that flows out from His Throne. Yet those trees are very different than fruit trees today, for those will continue to bear fruit year round with their leaves never fading.

Both Ezekial 47 and Revelation are visions, and within visions imagery and symbolism abounds.
From Matthew to Revelation there is no mention of a literal Tree of Life.
However there is lots of mention of Christ as our life (e.g. Col 3:4), and John 5:40 - We come to Christ to have life, not a literal tree.
Therefore the Tree of Life must refer to Christ.

 

[Trax]

The problem with alot of interpretations of scripture people take one verse out of context and make it doctrine. New Jerusalem is not a very large city. If you go back to verse one you will see that New Jerusalem is actually the bride of Christ. It is also stated later in the chapter verses 9-11.

It says "as a bride". It also states construction material and the size of it. The church isn't a city, like Jews today aren't Jerusalem.
The church isn't Jerusalem today either. Jerusalem is a city, and not a collection of people, described symbolically. Its called
the NEW Jerusalem, because the old one is gone. Jerusalem has always been a city, throughout the Bible.

 

[Trax]

The question is, does the New Jerusalem stay in orbit, or come all the way down to the earth? We need to stay on topic.
The discussion isn't, what is the New Jerusalem or how to correctly interpret the book of Rev.

 

[james1523]

It says "as a bride". It also states construction material and the size of it. The church isn't a city, like Jews today aren't Jerusalem.
The church isn't Jerusalem today either. Jerusalem is a city, and not a collection of people, described symbolically. Its called
the NEW Jerusalem, because the old one is gone. Jerusalem has always been a city, throughout the Bible.

I'm afraid that discussion whether the New Jerusalem is on earth or in heaven is pointless if we have not understood what the New Jerusalem actually is.

Jesus said in Matt 23:37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones God's messengers! How often I have wanted to gather your children together as a hen protects her chicks beneath her wings, but you wouldn't let me.

It is common to refer to a city with personal attributes, as Christ did in Matt 23:37. - the city kills, the city has children. But obviously Jerusalem refers to the people. Buildings don't kill or have children.

Discerning Christians can see that God is not building physical structures - He is building His church.

The view that the New Jerusalem is the Church Triumphant is the mainstream view in Biblical concordances and commentaries.

Matthew Henry for example, in commentary on Revelation 21 says:

The new heaven and the new earth will not be separate from each other; the earth of the saints, their glorified, bodies, will be heavenly. The old world, with all its troubles and tumults, will have passed away. There will be no sea; this aptly represents freedom from conflicting passions, temptations, troubles, changes, and alarms; from whatever can divide or interrupt the communion of saints. This new Jerusalem is the church of God in its new and perfect state, the church triumphant.

So to answer the question about whether the New Jerusalem is floating above the earth or on the earth, we have to ask whether the Church, us, are floating above the earth in orbit, or on the earth. Where we are, or will be, will determine where the New Jerusalem is.

As a matter of interest, the idea of the New Jerusalem is foundational in American nationalism. The Puritan colonizers of New England in the 17th century saw the New Jerusalem as a symbol for the New World and saw themselves as builders of the New Jerusalem on Earth. So maybe, the New Jerusalem is America?

 

[NoHype]

Gal 4:26 says "But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all." - so according to your doctrine, the building is free and our mother?, which makes no sense.

According to your (strange?) doctrine, Christ will marry a building? (Rev 21:2). I think when God says Jerusalem, He means the people, not the building. What is a city without the people? The Bible says Christ will marry His bride, it also says the bride is the New Jerusalem, therefore the New Jerusalem is the Church.

Like I said, what determines symbology and allegory in God's Word is how it is used in the Scripture context. In Gal.4 Apostle Paul is simply using the heavenly Jerusalem as a metaphor for were all souls came from, i.e., from God. Same kind of idea in Hebrews 11 about the heavenly Jerusalem...

Heb 11:16
16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for He hath prepared for them a city.
(KJV)

A better country? a city? Yes! And it will be right here upon this earth. Ezekiel 40-48 even gives its layout and also the borders of dwelling for the twelve tribes of Israel. When God showed Abraham the land of inheritance in Genesis, that land is on earth in the holy lands of promise. That is the same lands that Christ's saints are to inherit as God's Israel.

The purpose of a walled city is mainly to provide protection. Revelation says the gates of the city are never shut. So what is the purpose if its walls, if the gates are always open? If all the evil has been dealt with, why is there a need to live in a walled city at all? An answer is, that a physical city would serve no practical purpose, and that the New Jerusalem as a physical building is purely symbolic.

You may not see the need for the New Jerusalem to be a literal city upon the earth, but that's what our Heavenly Father has ordained and promised. The why you need to take up with Him instead of trying to make His declaration of it means some other idea He never intended. One explanation is that God said He created the earth to be inhabited (Isaiah 45:18). Another reason is because He gave the lands of promise to Abraham and his children by Promised inheritance (Gen.13). He's not going to go back on that Promise to Abraham either.

You know, there's plenty of folks in the various fields of science that don't believe the miracles written of in God's Word. Many among them that do believe in God often still try to find some scientific explanation for the miracles in God's Word, which is essentially to disregard His Divine Nature and Power as The Creator. By that they actually reveal they're doubting God and His Word. So I would admonish you to be careful in that.

 

[NoHype]

Considering what Genesis 2 reveals about God's Abode and the River that flowed out of His Eden; because I know many brethren here don't study the Old Testament Books as much as they do the New Testament Books, here a tidbit of what you have missed...

Gen 2:10-14
10 And a river went out of Eden to water the garden; and from thence it was parted, and became into four heads.
11 The name of the first is Pison: that is it which compasseth the whole land of Havilah, where there is gold;
12 And the gold of that land is good: there is bdellium and the onyx stone.
13 And the name of the second river is Gihon: the same is it that compasseth the whole land of Ethiopia.
14 And the name of the third river is Hiddekel: that is it which goeth toward the east of Assyria. And the fourth river is Euphrates.
(KJV)

God's River then flowed out of His Garden of Eden to feed four other literal rivers upon this earth. The Hiddekel (Tigris) and Euphrates rivers still exist today on earth, in northern Iraq, which was part of ancient Assyria. God's River would have flowed northward out of Eden to feed these two rivers in ancient Assyria.

The "Gihon" river flowed southward to Ethiopia below Egypt (Africa). Might have been the Nile. God's River would have to have flowed southward out of His Garden.

The "Pison" no one knows just where it was, nor where the land of Havilah (means 'circle') was. Some have speculated it was the Grecian Colchis, east Asia Minor. It means this river would have been fed westward from God's River out of Eden.

OK now. How many have missed that right there in Genesis 2, God described 'specific' locations upon the earth like Assyria, Ethiopia, and Havilah?

How is it those lands are being mentioned there in connection with His River out of the Garden of Eden when supposedly those lands had not even been peopled yet at that time of the man Adam??? That was even prior to the event of Genesis 3 when God sent Adam forth out of Eden and setup Cherubims with flaming swords to guard the way to the Tree of Life in the midst of God's Garden. (The flaming Cherubims setup to guard the Tree of Life in God's Eden at that time represents God removing His Garden off this earth to where it is now, in the Heavenly).

What it means is those lands of Assyria, Ethiopia, and Havilah were already established on earth at Genesis 2, even in the time of Adam and Eve. And God's River out of Eden parted to feed those four rivers that flowed to those lands on earth then. Read it again if you don't believe me brethren. Don't take my word for it.

When God removed His Garden of Eden off this earth after Adam's fall, that is when His River quit feeding those four rivers upon this earth. That is never mentioned happening again in God's Word except... as a hint regarding the return of His River to this earth per Ezekiel 47 and Revelation 22, both Scriptures in connection with His Tree of Life, just as that River of the waters of Life was in connection with His Garden of Eden in Genesis 2 wherein was the Tree of Life.


The following Scripture is about the time of God's future Kingdom on earth, His Salvation.

Isa 19:23-25
23 In that day shall there be a highway out of Egypt to Assyria, and the Assyrian shall come into Egypt, and the Egyptian into Assyria, and the Egyptians shall serve with the Assyrians.
24 In that day shall Israel be the third with Egypt and with Assyria, even a blessing in the midst of the land:
25 Whom the LORD of hosts shall bless, saying, "Blessed be Egypt My people, and Assyria the work of My hands, and Israel Mine inheritance."
(KJV)

Did you know brethren, that Assyria, Egypt, and Israel are each going to be one-third in His future Kingdom upon this earth? There's even going to be a "highway" running from Egypt northward to Assyria (modern day area of Iraq). That means that "highway" is going to pass through the land of Israel in the middle east, and each area will make up one-third in His Kingdom.

So where do you think His River out of Eden will flow in that future time upon the earth? Since God's River flowed to Assyria, and to Ethiopia below Egypt, where do you think that put His Garden of Eden in that time of Genesis 2? It put it somewhere in between Assyria and Egypt, just like this "highway" of Isaiah 19. Jerusalem is where God said He will dwell forever, upon His Holy Hill (Ps.2). That's where Genesis 2 is pointing to where His Garden of Eden was, i.e., where Jerusalem is today, and that's where this is pointing to for His return and the flowing out of His River once again in the future New Jerusalem upon the earth.

 

[james1523]

What it means is those lands of Assyria, Ethiopia, and Havilah were already established on earth at Genesis 2, even in the time of Adam and Eve. And God's River out of Eden parted to feed those four rivers that flowed to those lands on earth then. Read it again if you don't believe me brethren. Don't take my word for it.

When God removed His Garden of Eden off this earth after Adam's fall, that is when His River quit feeding those four rivers upon this earth. That is never mentioned happening again in God's Word except... as a hint regarding the return of His River to this earth per Ezekiel 47 and Revelation 22, both Scriptures in connection with His Tree of Life, just as that River of the waters of Life was in connection with His Garden of Eden in Genesis 2 wherein was the Tree of Life.

It does not necessarily mean that these places were established on earth in the time of Adam and Eve. It probably means they were established on earth at the time that the book of Genesis was written (by Moses or someone else), as the author used recognizable names for the places. What these places were called and if anyone lived there during Adam and Eves lifetime is unknown.

I don't think we can assume that the new heaven and new earth will be the same as the old.

2 Peter 3:10 says the old earth will be melted up and:
Rev 21:1 Then I saw "a new heaven and a new earth," for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea.

The new earth will be quite different to the old earth, there will be no more sea - it will be only dry land. Therefore there will be no more rivers (Tigris, Euphrates etc won't exist). This further confirms that the river in Revelation is symbolic and not literal. The river in Rev 22:1 is not plain old water. It is a river of the "water of life", which is symbolic of the Holy Spirit. This is the same "water of life" that Jesus talks about in John 7:38:
"He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water."
The next verse confirms that "living water" refers to the Spirit:
John 7:39 "By this he meant the Spirit....."
Therefore the river of water of life in Revelation is a river of the Holy Spirit.
Note that the author of the gospel of John and the author of Revelation are the same person - John. So we can be confident that the meaning of "water of life" in Revelation is the same as in John 7:38-49. Also, it is Jesus giving John the vision in Revelation, and Jesus uses the vision of a river of water of life to symbolize the abundance of the Holy Spirit flowing to God's people in the New Earth.