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Romans 13: 1-7

steveagape2

Member
Joined
Mar 8, 2011
Messages
10
Brethren

From what I have learned is that there are two opposing views in the Body of Christ regarding Romans 13.

1) One belief is that Paul was writing about Christians submitting to Governments.

2) The other view is that Paul was writing to the Church about submitting to those in authority in the Church.

Not wanting any here to perceive this to mean rebel or oppose our Government but just wanted two see and discuss the two views through God's Word.
Love
Steve
:heart2:
 
Hi Steve,

I have moved this to the bible study forum.
 
Romans 13:1-7 shows the relative subjection a true Christian is to have toward human governments, for verse 4 says that "it is not without purpose that it bears the sword", and verse 6 speaks of "paying taxes" to those who "God's public servants". Verse 7 says that a true Christian should "render to all their dues, to him who [calls for] the tax, the tax; to him who [calls for] the tribute, the tribute; to him who [calls for] fear, such fear; to him who [calls for] honor, such honor."

Though a true Christian is to be "in subjection" because the governments of the world "bears the sword", the apostle Paul gives a more compelling reason, "on account of your conscience."(Rom 13:5) True Christians strive to serve God “with a clean conscience.” (2 Timothy 1:3) The Bible tells them to be subject to the superior authorities, and these obey because they want to do what is right in God’s eyes, using their ' trained perceptive powers to discern right and wrong.' (Hebrews 5:14) Indeed, a true Christian's Bible-trained conscience moves them to obey the authority even when no human is present to check up on them.

When Jesus gave the rule, ‘Pay back Caesar’s things to Caesar,’ he was speaking about paying taxes. (Matthew 22:21) Secular authorities supply roads, police protection, libraries, transportation systems, schools, postal services, and much more. We often use these provisions. It is only right that we should pay for them through our taxes.

Paul told the Roman Christians: “Render to all their dues, to him who calls for the tax, the tax; to him who calls for the tribute, the tribute; to him who calls for fear, such fear; to him who calls for honor, such honor.” (Romans 13:7) The word “all” embraces every secular authority that is God’s public servant. There are no exceptions. Even if we live under a political system that we personally do not like, we pay taxes. If religions are tax exempt where we live, congregations can take advantage of this. And like other citizens, Christians can use whatever legal provisions are made to limit the taxes they pay. But no Christian should illegally evade paying taxes.

When two men approached Peter in Capernaum upon Jesus and his apostles arrival, they asked: "Does your teacher not pay the two drachmas tax ?” Though Jesus was not legally subject to being taxed, he asked Peter: "What do you think, Simon ? From whom do the kings of the earth receive duties or head tax ? From their sons or from the strangers ?” When he said: “From the strangers,” Jesus said to him: “Really, then, the sons are tax-free. But that we do not cause them to stumble, you go to the sea, cast a fishhook, and take the first fish coming up and, when you open its mouth, you will find a stater coin. Take that and give it to them for me and you.”(Matt 17:24-27) Thus, Jesus instructed Peter to pay the tax in order to not "stumble" anyone.

Suppose, though, that a tax seems unjust. Or what if part of the tax money is used to finance something we disagree with, such as free abortions, blood banks, or programs that conflict with a true Christian's neutral views ? These still pay all their taxes. It is the authority that must take responsibility for how it uses the tax money. A true Christian is not commissioned to judge the authority. God is the “Judge of the earth,” and in his own time, he will hold an accounting with the governments as to how they have used their authority. (Psalm 94:2; Jeremiah 25:31) Until that happens, a true Christian pays his taxes.

The “fear” of Romans 13:7 is not a cowardly fear but, rather, a respect for secular authority, a fear of breaking its law. This respect is given because of the position involved, not always because of the individual filling the position. The Bible, when speaking prophetically of the Roman emperor Tiberius, calls him “one who is to be despised.” (Daniel 11:21) But he was the emperor, and as such, a Christian would have owed him fear and honor.

As regards honor, we follow Jesus’ command not to give titles based on religious position, such as calling a person by the religious titles of "Father" or "Reverend". (Matthew 23:8-10) But when it comes to secular authorities, a true Christian is happy to address them by whatever title may be required in honoring them. Paul used the term “Your Excellency” when speaking to Roman governors. (Acts 26:25) Daniel called Nebuchadnezzar “my lord.” (Daniel 4:19) Today, true Christians may use expressions such as “Your Lordship” or “Your Majesty.” They may stand when a judge enters the courtroom or respectfully bow before a ruler if that is the custom.

A true Christian gives relative subjection the government in the land in which they live, not absolute subjection. Because a true Christian's subjection is relative, the authority does not always recognize that there are Biblically set limits to what it can demand. If the authority demands something that offends a trained Christian conscience, it is going beyond its God-given limit. Jesus indicated this when he said: “Pay back . . . Caesar’s things to Caesar, but God’s things to God.” (Matthew 22:21) When Caesar demands what belongs to God, we must acknowledge that God has the prior claim.

Is this position subversive or treacherous? Not at all. It is, in fact, an extension of a principle recognized by most civilized nations. In the 15th century, a certain Peter von Hagenbach was put on trial for initiating a reign of terror in the area of Europe over which he had authority. His defense, that he was merely following the orders of his lord, the Duke of Burgundy, was rejected.

The claim that a person committing atrocities is not accountable if he is following the orders of a superior authority has been made a number of times since then—most notably by the Nazi war criminals before the International Tribunal at Nuremberg. The claim has usually been rejected. The International Tribunal said in its judgment: “Individuals have international duties which transcend the national obligations of obedience imposed by the individual state.”

God’s servants have always recognized that there are limits to the subjection that they conscientiously owe to the superior authorities. About the time that Moses was born in Egypt, Pharaoh commanded two Hebrew midwives to kill all newborn Hebrew boys. The midwives, however, preserved the babies alive. Were they wrong to disobey Pharaoh? No, they were following their God-given conscience, and God blessed them for it. (Exodus 1:15-20)

When Israel was in exile in Babylon, Nebuchadnezzar demanded that his officials, including the Hebrews Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, bow before an image that he had placed on the plain of Dura. The three Hebrews refused. Were they wrong? No, since following the king’s command would have meant disobeying God’s law.(Exodus 20:4, 5; Daniel 3:1-18)

Similarly, when the Jewish authorities commanded Peter and John to stop preaching about Jesus, they replied: “Whether it is righteous in the sight of God to listen to you rather than to God, judge for yourselves.” (Acts 4:19; 5:29) They could not keep silent.

The magazine The Christian Century draws attention to another conscientious stand taken by the early Christians when it says: “The earliest Christians did not serve in the armed forces. Roland Bainton notes that ‘from the end of the New Testament period to the decade A.D. 170-180 there is no evidence whatever of Christians in the army’ (Christian Attitudes Toward War and Peace [Abingdon, 1960], pp. 67-8). . . . Swift says Justin Martyr ‘takes it as a matter of course that Christians refrain from violent acts.’”
 
?? the sword ?? Romans 13: 4

Again not promoting rebellion here, not saying that we should break the laws.

?? the Sword ?? as the first topic in the post above, could it be this--- a figurative sword?

Paul was a pharisee, son of a pharisee he knew God's Word well and guess from his father and all through out his Jewish life and Christian life.

He knew Psalms 7: 11-12. He knew Psalms 35 1-4. He knew Psalms 64: 1-8 etc., etc., etc., etc..

Psalm 7: 11-12
God is a righteous Judge, yes, a God Who is indignant every day.
If a man does not turn and repent, [God] will whet His sword; He has strung and bent His [huge] bow and made it ready [by treading it with His foot].

Psalm 35: 1-3
CONTEND, O Lord, with those who contend with me; fight against those who fight against me! <sup class="versenum" id="en-AMP-14413">2</sup>Take hold of shield and buckler, and stand up for my help!
<sup class="versenum" id="en-AMP-14414">3</sup>Draw out also the spear and javelin and close up the way of those who pursue and persecute me. Say to me, I am your deliverance!
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What Paul talked of in Romans 13: 4 it (opinion), it may have been this sword of the Church that he spoke of.

Those with Christ and thereafter that were in authority in the body of Christ also had this ability through the Holy Ghost, Christ's Spirit from what has been written. Paul himself uses this Acts 13: 6-12. Again in a lesser sense when being excommunicated I Corinthians 5:3-5. Also Peter in Acts 5: 1-12. The disciples with Christ (plz note that Christ did not say that this was not possible) Luke 9: 52-56. There are more places in God's Word where the Church used it Authority (the sword).

The 5 places ABOVE, may be the SWORD that Paul spoke of, and please do look them up!!!! .....so is it the Civil Governments Sword or the Churches Sword (note getting a NO POST LINKS MESS on this, so not posting the above verses and others) Are we missing what Paul was telling the Church about the Church Authorities ?

???? Who was Paul telling the Church to SUBMIT TO IN ROMANS 13???
------Are we not to Submit to those God appoints in the Church?----
------Are those in the Church " Not a terror to those of good works"?-----

OPINIONS PLEASE
Love Steve
 
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Authority is a biblical subject and of vital importance for Christian life and blessing. It is God-given structure principle and we do well to obey even if at times we may not agree, or it may be inconvenient.

For instance In Jn ch 2 Jesus with his disciples and his mother was at a wedding. His mother came to Jesus to tell him that the wine had run out. He replied 'that his time had not yet come' But his mother told the waiters 'Do what ever he says'

It seems to me in this passage that Jesus was subject to his mother and her wishes even though it may have intruded his privacy....

It is good to note people who did things in scripture because they were told, and they responded being subject to 'authority.. I was reading recently how Naaman the leper wes told by no less than 7 people to go to the man of God in Samaria. ect.
 
The Church, as some call it, has no right to "bear the sword", though it has in the past wielded almost absolute authority and burned innocent and God-fearing individuals at the stake, such as 14 men of Meaux, France in 1546, that their only "crimes" were they met in private homes, sang psalms, prayed, observed the Lord's Supper and declared that they would never accept "Papistical idolatries".

Jesus told Peter, after having cut off the high priest's slave's right ear: "Return your sword to its place, for all those who take the sword will perish by the sword."(Matt 26:52) The Christian congregation was to ' follow closely in Jesus footsteps' , for "when being reviled, he did not go reviling in return. When he was suffering, he did not go threatening, but kept committing himself to the one who judges righteously."(1 Pet 2:21, 23)

At Romans 13:1-7, the apostle Paul is speaking of the "superior authorities" or human governmental systems that have relative authority over a true Christian. These have been granted by God the right to ' bear the sword ', putting some persons to death for crimes committed. No true Christian has such authority, to "bear the sword". Our Creator, Jehovah God has allowed the governmental systems of the "world" to provide a measure of justice in ' bearing the sword'.

The Christian congregation has authority to maintain spiritual cleanness, and in so doing, remove individuals from it that are a corrupting influence.(Matt 18:15-18)

When there was found a person who committed fornication within the Corinthian congregation, by the authority given him as an apostle, Paul said: "In my letter I wrote you to quit mixing in company with fornicators, not [meaning] entirely with the fornicators of this world or the greedy persons and extortioners or idolaters. Otherwise, you would actually have to get out of the world. But now I am writing you to quit mixing in company with anyone called a brother that is a fornicator or a greedy person or an idolater or a reviler or a drunkard or an extortioner, not even eating with such a man."(1 Cor 5:11, 12) Paul now tells the Corinthian overseers: "Remove the wicked man from among yourselves."(1 Cor 5:13)
 
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A FIGURATIVE sword!!!!!!!

Jaareshiah YES on removing some from the Church as in Corinthians , That action within the Church and outside of the Church IS EXACTLY what Paul may have been referring to as a (FIGURATIVE) sword. ----the Church and those in Authority within the Church may be the Higher Powers which we are to submit to.

--outside the Church, wrath, judgment or the figurative sword--
4 When the disciples James and John saw this, they asked, “Lord, do you want us to call fire down from heaven to destroy them

---- outside the body of Christ, figurative sword by the Church---
Paul did this---<sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV-27373">10</sup> “You are a child of the devil and an enemy of everything that is right! You are full of all kinds of deceit and trickery. Will you never stop perverting the right ways of the Lord? <sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV-27374">11</sup> Now the hand of the Lord is against you. You are going to be blind for a time, not even able to see the light of the sun.”

-----within the Church a figurative sword----
<sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV-27063">3</sup> Then Peter said, “Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart=====<sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV-27065">5</sup> When Ananias heard this, he fell down and died. The same happen to his wife to guys.

So in no way shape or form would Paul refer to these actions as a figurative sword preformed by those appointed by God with in the Church. Who we should submit to because they are not a terror to those of good works etc etc.
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Guys, please read Romans 13; 1-7 in Young's Literal Translation a few times and pretend...just for a few short reads...pretend... that Paul was telling us here to submit to those in authority in the Church Apostles, Pastors etc.

I know of many that believe, think it is the Church here in Romans. I do understand that after being taught one way it can be faith shaking to see this another way. It is a way we protect our faith and I too am that way. I am no scholar, or have any status. Paul did speak of not taking brethren to the Government Courts but that these things should be handled with in the Church When he tell us there not to go to the Government. So there Paul is telling us to submit to the Body of Christ (again???).

Love Steveagape
 
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The apostle Paul was not referring to the "church" at Romans 13:1-7, for it is the governments of the "world" that receive taxes and tribute, that are "public servants"(Rom 13:6, 7), not the "church". It is the governments of the various nations that a true Christian is to render ("render", Greek apodidomi, literally meaning "to give back") "all their dues, to him who [calls for] the tax, the tax; to him who [calls for] the tribute, the tribute; to him who [calls for] fear, such fear; to him who [calls for] honor, such honor."(Rom 13:7)

The "sword" is the governments granted right by God to provide some form of justice, depending upon the nation or country. Pilate told Jesus, following Jesus silence: "Are you not speaking to me ? Do you not know I have authority to release you and I have authority to impale you ?” Jesus replied to Pilate: "You would have no authority at all against me unless it had been granted to you from above."(John 19: 10, 11)

Thus, all human governments have been granted their authority from God, allowing them to exist in these "last days" (Dan 2:28) for just "one hour"(Rev 17:12) before their total destruction in the near future.(Dan 2:44; Rev 19:17, 18)
 
I do understand your views

Numbers 31: 37-41 (All is Gods...all and yes we give back to God what is his.)


<sup class="versenum" id="en-ASV-4702">37</sup> and Jehovah's tribute of the sheep was six hundred and threescore and fifteen.
<sup class="versenum" id="en-ASV-4703">38</sup> And the oxen were thirty and six thousand; of which Jehovah's tribute was threescore and twelve.
<sup class="versenum" id="en-ASV-4704">39</sup> And the asses were thirty thousand and five hundred; of which Jehovah's tribute was threescore and one.
<sup class="versenum" id="en-ASV-4705">40</sup> And the persons were sixteen thousand; of whom Jehovah's tribute was thirty and two persons.
<sup class="versenum" id="en-ASV-4706">41</sup> And Moses gave the tribute, which was Jehovah's heave-offering, unto Eleazar the priest, as Jehovah commanded Moses.
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Hosea 8:4 Amplified Bible

<sup class="versenum" id="en-AMP-22199">4</sup>They set up kings, but not from Me [therefore without My blessing]; they have made princes or removed them [without consulting Me; therefore], I knew and recognized [them] not. With their silver and their gold they made idols for themselves, that they [the silver and the gold] may be destroyed.
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Young's Literal States it this way
<sup class="versenum" id="en-YLT-26837">11</sup>Jesus answered, `Thou wouldst have no authority against me, if it were not having been given thee from above; because of this, he who is delivering me up to thee hath greater sin.'

PLEASE NOTE...It says using his authority to do this to Christ he has sinned also along with Judas. Pilate was put there by God to see that Christ would be killed. Thats been the plan all along.
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Romans Verse 3
For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good

Now if Paul were to be talking about those in Governments not being a terror to those of good works. Please you and I and most everyone here KNOWS this is just not truth in Paul's day and before, Old Testament and New. Can one imagine what it would be like to be there at that time and have someone tell you that governments are not a terror to you.

Any Want to list Government Authorities that Paul knew that were a terror to good??

I am just hoping that we all can see both sides of this and then determine what Paul wanted us to submit to in Romans 13 and i am speaking ONLY OF Romans 13. I have seen and understood it both ways.....an anyone else?
:love:
Steve
 
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