Sanctification vs Justification

[Barny]

Sure it is Barny, day by day our relationship grows with Christ, and day by day we become more like Him through a relationship and faith.
All this comes with believing in Jesus.
You want simplicity Barny, I will give you simplicity.
Isn't the whole gospel message about love? If we believe in Jesus won't we grow to love Jesus and don't we love Him because He first loved us? His righteousness is love a true agape love that is an unselfish, un onditional love not a fleshly love.
I would like you to do something for me Barny, everywhere the law says "thou shall not" want you to put love says "thou shall not" because this is the truth of the matter. Dosen't agape love only come from God, and dosen't He want to impart that love to us so that we will also love with agape love? Isn't that what this is all about,a love relationship with the almighty God and out brothers and sisters around us?
If you believe in Jesus you will also believe all there is about Jesus and by beholding Him you will become changed. All of this comes with believing in Jesus!!!

You claimed that perfect obedience to the law is required as evidence of "imparted" righteousness. Without this we are of the world and lost.
So what does this doctrine you follow say about those who do not achieve this perfect obedience to the law? They receive Jesus and they live for several decades as a Christian, but never managed to achieve perfect obedience to the law in their lifetime.

And as only past sin was dealt with at the cross (Rom 3:25), then there is no more subsequent sin in a Christian's life. They have "ceased from sin" as God says in 1Pet 4:1. There is no more sacrifice for sin.
Anyone God has justified is free from any charges (including sin/transgression of the law/unrighteousness). Not even Satan the accuser can lay any charges of sin against a believer, Rom 8:33.
But the doctrine you follow contradicts this. You are still charging Christians with sin/transgression of the law/unrighteousness.

I suggest the doctrine you follow is mixing grace with works of the law. And God says we cannot mix these, Rom 11:6.

 

[Barny]

If improvement in outward behavor is not due to God's righteousness then what is it from? Our self efforts? satan?
God's nature is righteous. So if we partake His nature it is the same as partaking His righteousness. The degree of righteousness will depend upon the extent that we partake of His nature.

We both agree that only God can change us. And we both agree that changes for the better often do occur in a Christian's behavior.
Where we disagree is that the doctrine you follow claims that this is necessary proof of "imparted" righteousness which confirms that such a person is saved.

Hence my question to you is what level of proof does this doctrine claim is needed?
Is it a perfect lifestyle?
Or is halfway to perfect acceptable?
And what criteria is this perfection judged with?

 

[DHC]

Gal_3:12 And the law is not of faith:

Hello Spirit1st.

It is the joy that I experience when I read your posts, the reminder
that some folk on TJ are mature in Christ.

You are a spiritual creation in Christ, it is plain to see by the way
you handle the scripture. You have no need of instruction, for
you have been taught by the Holy Spirit.

Thanks Spirit1st.

 

[spirit1st]

1Co_12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.
Tit_3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;


1Jn_4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God
1Jn_4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
1Jn_4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

 

[spirit1st]

I made a test once ! when young in the LORD! I went around asking people to do me a favor! Everyone said ok 1 I asked them to say ? Jesus christ is LORD! most could but some tried very hard , but could Not say it !

Just type Jesus christ is LORD!!

 

[Barny]

Perhaps you are referring to the verse below.

2 Cor 11:3; But I am afraid that, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, your minds will be led astray from the simplicity and purity of devotion to Christ.

Following Christ is simple. Devotion to Christ isn't always so simple. Yet both are the same thing.
If you are devoted to someone, you follow them, listen to them, obey them, love them, learn about them, love them, and basically live your life for them.
It's easy to say we are Christians, but it isn't always easy to live like one.

Yes, I am referring to 2Cor 11:3. I quoted it in previous posts when questioning the complicated doctrines that add works of the law to grace.

So while we agree that a Christian's behavior should show improvement we differ in that I don't see this in terms of required evidence that one is saved. But the doctrine you follow argues that without this evidence a person is not saved.

I understand that a Christian is a doer of the word and not a hearer only, James 1:22. We believe in Jesus.
We obey God's will for us to believe in Jesus, John 6:40
Our works that shows our faith is our believing in Jesus, John 6:29
We obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine (the gospel/believe in Jesus) that was delivered to us, Rom 6:17.

Those who are forgetful hearers (and not doers of the word) are those who deny Jesus through their works (Tit 1:16).
They begin in the Spirit but then seek to be made perfect by the flesh (Gal 3:3), through adding doctrines of works of the law.
This is why I quote 2Cor 11:3.
But I am afraid that, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, your minds will be led astray from the simplicity and purity of devotion to Christ.

Those who preach that works of the law are required as evidence of so called "imparted" righteousness and thus salvation, have been led astray from the simplicity that is in Christ.

 

[Barny]

I made a test once ! when young in the LORD! I went around asking people to do me a favor! Everyone said ok 1 I asked them to say ? Jesus christ is LORD! most could but some tried very hard , but could Not say it !

Just type Jesus christ is LORD!!

Jesus Christ is LORD.
I've even preached it from street corners.

I also seen how some cannot say "Jesus Christ is LORD".

 

[papajim]

You claimed that perfect obedience to the law is required as evidence of "imparted" righteousness. Without this we are of the world and lost.
So what does this doctrine you follow say about those who do not achieve this perfect obedience to the law? They receive Jesus and they live for several decades as a Christian, but never managed to achieve perfect obedience to the law in their lifetime.

And as only past sin was dealt with at the cross (Rom 3:25), then there is no more subsequent sin in a Christian's life. They have "ceased from sin" as God says in 1Pet 4:1. There is no more sacrifice for sin.
Anyone God has justified is free from any charges (including sin/transgression of the law/unrighteousness). Not even Satan the accuser can lay any charges of sin against a believer, Rom 8:33.
But the doctrine you follow contradicts this. You are still charging Christians with sin/transgression of the law/unrighteousness.

I suggest the doctrine you follow is mixing grace with works of the law. And God says we cannot mix these, Rom 11:6.

Hello Barny, May God bless you and He has. He has shown you something very special, the imputed righteousness of Christ, that is far more than many christains understand so you have been very blessed. God does not reveal all things to all people at the same time. We disagree with each other, you have given the gospel as you understand it as I have also given you the gospel as I understand it, but it is the Holy Spirit that teaches. So we disagree, I'm ok with that, and do you know what is really cool?.....God loves us both, isn't that awesome?!!!
Always your brother in Christ,
Papajim

 

[DHC]

Galatians 3
17 What I am saying is this: the Law, which came four hundred and thirty years later,
does not invalidate a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to nullify the promise.
18 For if the inheritance is based on law, it is no longer based on a promise; but God has
granted it to Abraham by means of a promise.
19 Why the Law then? It was added because of transgressions, having been ordained
through angels by the agency of a mediator, until the seed would come to whom the promise
had been made.
20 Now a mediator is not for one party only; whereas God is only one.
21 Is the Law then contrary to the promises of God? May it never be! For if a law had been
given which was able to impart life, then righteousness would indeed have been based on law.
22 But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ
might be given to those who believe.

What "law" is Paul referring to in these passages?

What "covenant" is Paul addressing and why?

 

[B-A-C]

We obey God's will for us to believe in Jesus, John 6:40

That is just one of many things that is his will for us, yes. It's also his will that we obey his commandments.

One of those two things will get you saved. The other one of those two things is what we are told to do once we are saved.

 

[james1523]

We both agree that only God can change us. And we both agree that changes for the better often do occur in a Christian's behavior.
Where we disagree is that the doctrine you follow claims that this is necessary proof of "imparted" righteousness which confirms that such a person is saved.

Hence my question to you is what level of proof does this doctrine claim is needed?
Is it a perfect lifestyle?
Or is halfway to perfect acceptable?
And what criteria is this perfection judged with?

A problem I see is that you don't see that improvements in behavior, and salvation are related. Like I said previously if you take the life and nature of a cat and put it into a dog the dog will start to behave like a cat. This outward behavior is proof that the dog has received the life and nature of a cat. Now God's Spirit within us imparts His life and nature to us and this causes us to live and behave like Christ. This is what has occurred when we are 'born again'... that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Many people who are saved experience immediate change in their outward behavior. Many are free from drug and alcohol or other problems immediately after accepting Christ. Many who were once violent and angry men suddenly have a change of heart at salvation. Many are changed from a selfish person to a self-less person. Are you saying that salvation offers no improvements or evidence in outward behavior? If that is the case then the person is not saved. That is the situation today when many believers are promised and told they are saved when in fact there is no evidence of this in their outward behavior. That is like the Pharisees who came to be baptized by John but did not bear any fruit in keeping with their salvation.

I can give examples from the Bible of salvation and behavior being related, and that one implies the other:
Changed behavior:
Luke 19:8 But Zacchaeus stood up and said to the Lord, "Look, Lord! Here and now I give half of my possessions to the poor, and if I have cheated anybody out of anything, I will pay back four times the amount."
Declared salvation:
Luke 19:9 Jesus said to him, "Today salvation has come to this house, because this man, too, is a son of Abraham.

Requirement of behavior as proof of salvation:
Matt 3:8 Prove by the way you live that you have repented of your sins and turned to God.

A proof that the Gentiles had received the Spirit was not that they declared "we have faith", but their outward behavior of speaking in tongues and praising God:
Acts 10:45 The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on Gentiles.
Acts 10:46 For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God.

So if behavior and salvation are not related according to your doctrine, then what is your definition of salvation? If improvement in behavior is not some proof of salvation then what is it proof of? Salvation is receiving the presence of Christ in our lives to transform us into His image to be the sons of God. Salvation is the degree to which we are conformed to the image of Christ, which is an going process. This is what Paul said to the Galatians who were not there yet: Gal 4:19 Oh, my dear children! I feel as if I'm going through labor pains for you again, and they will continue until Christ is fully developed in your lives.

God does not just save us from hell into Heaven, He saves us from our self into the image of Christ which is God's original purpose for mankind to be made in His image.

The destiny and purpose of God for all believers is to be conformed to the image of Jesus Christ so that God may have many brothers and sisters:
Rom 8:29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters.

The Bible reveals salvation in two aspects, we are saved (judicially, position-wise) and we are being saved (experiencially). Both of these aspects are due to Christ and not ourselves. Judicially we are saved by Christ's blood.. experiencially we are saved by Christ's Spirit who imparts His life to us. The former is imputed righteousness, the latter is imparted righteousness. Both occur at the moment of salvation, at the moment of being born again.

 

[B-A-C]

So, if I do not commit the act of adultery I have obeyed the law.

Then we have the following, rather disturbing instruction from
Jesus;

27 You have heard that it was said, You shall not commit adultery
28 but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust
for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

This is different to the written law, as this involves the thought
process itself. It is the act of adultery committed within the
mind of a person. So on the one hand I have obeyed, but at
the same time I have disobeyed. The legal paradox.

B-A-C, which law do you advocate?

Both, but I don't them view them as choice A or choice B. They are all God's will and God's commandments. Jesus's words didn't replace the the 10 commandments, they added to them.

Committing adultery was just one of the things Jesus mentioned. He also mentioned murder, loving or hating your brother, loving God, honoring your father and mother, taking the Lords name in vain,
lying and just about all of the other 10 commandments (the notable exception being the sabbath day). Jesus healed on the sabbath.
So just keeping one of the commands Jesus gave us doesn't help. If you ever broke any of the commandments ever you are just as guilty as if you have broken the whole law.
So saying, I always kept these commandments doesn't help you. You either have to be perfect, or you have to have Jesus. Not committing adultery doesn't mean you obeyed the law.
It means you obeyed one of the laws.

But I do agree with you on one point, that seemingly is a paradox to some.
One one hand we have many verses saying don't depend on the law for your salvation. On the other hand we have just a many verses saying follow my commandments.
These seem to contradict each other, but they don't in my opinion. Jesus never says depend on the law to save you, and he never says don't obey my commandments.
Now sometimes in the Bible the words "law" and "commandments are used interchangeably, but if they always mean the same thing, then we indeed have a paradox,
On the other hand, if following the law means getting circumcised, confessing to a priest and having him make sacrifices for you every single time you sin, and getting
stoned if you break certain laws mean "following the law". And loving God and your neighbor means "following the commandments", then there is no paradox at all.
However I agree with you and Barny that following the commandments won't save you. Even so, they are what Jesus asked us to do several times.
Following the commandments doesn't make us righteous. (Only if we followed them perfectly and never told a lie, or stole anything, or never lusted, or never coveted)
then we could say we are righteous on our own. But who can say that? As you mentioned in your post, no one can. That's why there is grace.

 

[Barny]

That is just one of many things that is his will for us, yes. It's also his will that we obey his commandments.

One of those two things will get you saved. The other one of those two things is what we are told to do once we are saved.

The other commandment is that we love one another.
And in this imperfect physical world that is often reflected in forgiving one another 7x70, just as God forgave us.

Hence the point I have been making in our discussions is why would any Christian then preach that perfect obedience to the law (or even some lessor, yet acceptable level of obedience to the law) be required as proof of salvation?

If God loved us, warts and all, and forgave us, then why would any Christian then tell others that they will not be forgiven and therefore are lost if they don't measure up to perfection or some unknown minimum level of obedience to the law?

If we add works of the law to grace then this is being lukewarm and God rejects such persons, Rev 3:16.

 

[B-A-C]

If God loved us, warts and all, and forgave us, then why would any Christian then tell others that they will not be forgiven and therefore are lost if they don't measure up to perfection or some unknown minimum level of obedience to the law?

You could have a really great basketball player, maybe someone named Michael Jordan who is considered to the best there ever was.
Did he make all of his shots? No. Did he even make half of them? No. Still he was considered the best even though he "missed the mark" more often that he hit it.
Now even though he missed sometimes, how often do you think he tried to miss on purpose?
Now suppose he did try to miss on purpose, or stopped really trying to help get his team further along. Would he really be doing what the coach wanted?

On the other hand we have a really bad basketball player, maybe his name is B-A-C, he also tries to make all of his shots, but he misses a lot of them, maybe even 90% of them.
But he keeps trying to make shots. He never tries to miss a shot on purpose, but he still misses. He is doing his best to help the team, and they realize it. The coach realizes it too.
So he keeps letting him play, so he will get better. He might not ever be a Michael Jordan, but he can be better than he was last year.

There is no minimum standard of shots, there is no magic number, there is no percentage you have to make. The only thing that matters is that you try. If you try, you will get better.
So you could be a really great player with a bad attitude and still make say 25% of your shots (as opposed 50% if you were really trying)
Or you could be a really terrible player with a good attitude and only make 15 or 20% of your shots. Some might say, I would take the better player even if he has a bad attitude.
God isn't that way. He takes us as we are, uses our talents for his purpose no matter how good or bad we are at it. All that matter is that we do it with the right heart.

In fact I believe God chooses the small, weak, less educated, and poor to accomplish most of the things he wants to do.
If someone with a high-IQ, with a lot of money, well educated and strong does something, he will likely say he accomplished it on his own.
If someone small and weak accomplishes it, then it shows God's power in his life.

The percentage of sin vs not sin doesn't matter that much. All that matters is that you try with the right attitude and right heart.
You might be able to fool your coach, but you can't fool God, he knows your heart and he knows if you're trying to make shots or miss them on purpose.

 

[Barny]

A problem I see is that you don't see that improvements in behavior, and salvation are related. Like I said previously if you take the life and nature of a cat and put it into a dog the dog will start to behave like a cat. This outward behavior is proof that the dog has received the life and nature of a cat. Now God's Spirit within us imparts His life and nature to us and this causes us to live and behave like Christ. This is what has occurred when we are 'born again'... that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Many people who are saved experience immediate change in their outward behavior. Many are free from drug and alcohol or other problems immediately after accepting Christ. Many who were once violent and angry men suddenly have a change of heart at salvation. Many are changed from a selfish person to a self-less person. Are you saying that salvation offers no improvements or evidence in outward behavior? If that is the case then the person is not saved. That is the situation today when many believers are promised and told they are saved when in fact there is no evidence of this in their outward behavior. That is like the Pharisees who came to be baptized by John but did not bear any fruit in keeping with their salvation.

The Bible reveals salvation in two aspects, we are saved (judicially, position-wise) and we are being saved (experiencially). Both of these aspects are due to Christ and not ourselves. Judicially we are saved by Christ's blood.. experiencially we are saved by Christ's Spirit who imparts His life to us. The former is imputed righteousness, the latter is imparted righteousness. Both occur at the moment of salvation, at the moment of being born again.

The proof of salvation that God seeks in us is that we believe His promises. Believe in Jesus and we will have eternal life.
And His commandments which believers obey, are seen in 1John 3:23.
1: Believe in Jesus.
2:Love one another.

Now to love one another is often seen in terms of forgiving each other 7x70. Just as God loved us and forgave us.

But those who preach doctrines that people are condemned/lost if they do not measure up to perfection or some unknown lessor minimum standard of behavior, then such people will likewise not be forgiven by God.

In this imperfect world nobody is going to be perfect in behavior.

But, as you claim we are to have "imparted" righteousness which confirms we are saved, then I ask you what level of good behavior proves that we have this?
Is it to be perfect?
Or is some lessor, yet acceptable level ok?
And what measure do you claim we use?

 

[brakelite]

Galatians 3
17 What I am saying is this: the Law, which came four hundred and thirty years later,
does not invalidate a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to nullify the promise.
18 For if the inheritance is based on law, it is no longer based on a promise; but God has
granted it to Abraham by means of a promise.
19 Why the Law then? It was added because of transgressions, having been ordained
through angels by the agency of a mediator, until the seed would come to whom the promise
had been made.
20 Now a mediator is not for one party only; whereas God is only one.
21 Is the Law then contrary to the promises of God? May it never be! For if a law had been
given which was able to impart life, then righteousness would indeed have been based on law.
22 But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ
might be given to those who believe.

What "law" is Paul referring to in these passages?

What "covenant" is Paul addressing and why?

Hi DHC, I offer this as an explanation. God promised Abraham that He would make him the father of many nations. This was God's covenant, for that is what a covenant is, a promise. Not long after Abraham's descendants found themselves slaves in a foreign land, in bondage to a foreign power, surrounded and influenced by strange gods, the true God and His precepts forgotten until Moses comes along. God sets them free, reminding them of His laws and commandments, particularly the Sabbath. ( Exodus 16, at least 3 months before Israel arrived at Sinai). God speaks His laws from Sinai, and engraves them with His own finger upon the stone tablets. Israel, as you have quoted previously, said to Moses "All that the Lord has said we will do". God did not ask Israel to promise anything. The promises were all His, it was merely up to Israel to believe. However, they wanted to add their own 'works' to God's promises and made the promise, and broke it before even Moses had time to come down from the mountain. Thus the old covenant was broken before it had hardly begun. They made a gold god, worshipped this idol, cavorted naked around it and generally took themselves back to spiritual Egypt.

Therefore God had to take further steps. He had to teach these stubborn self-willed people what obedience and the mercy and grace of God is all about, and how they relate. So He gave them the services of the sanctuary, the priesthood, and the yearly round of sacrifices and ceremonies. It was this law, the law of Moses, that was given because of transgression against the laws of God. Neither law annulled however God's promise, but Moses law was given to show Israel its dependence on God and the uselessness of trying to go it alone.

Romans 10:2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
3 For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

The law of Moses was given to show Israel the gospel. In the form of a theatre so to speak, Israel was shown that there was to come a Saviour, a fulfilment of the promise (covenant) that was first given in the garden of Eden. Every sacrifice, every annual sabbath, every celebration, every act of the priest in the daily ministration,every act of the high priest in the annual ministration on the day of atonement when he went into the most holy place for the only time of the year, all were a shadow of Christ's ministry beginning with His sacrifice on Calvary and culminating with the second coming and His taking His people home.

Thus neither law were intended to give life, but to lead us to the Saviour. The second law given because of transgression against the first. The ceremonial aspects of the second law fulfilled in Christ through Whom we now have the power to obey the first law through the removal of sin and the breaking of the power of sin in the lives of those who believe.

Thus Christ is the end of the law, not the destruction or the removal of the law, but the end, the goal, the final triumphant destination to which the law was heading.

 

[Barny]

There is a minimum standard of shots, there is no magic number, there is no percentage you have to make. The only thing that matters is that you try. If you try, you will get better.

And the goal or shots that we Christians are aiming at is to believe in Jesus and love one another.

Hence we do not turn back to the law to judge righteousness (even so called "imparted" righteousness) of either ourselves nor anyone else.

Those who are "doers of the word" continue to believe in Jesus (hence their faith is counted for righteousness, Rom 4:5), and they love one another in spite of all our failures, forgiving 7x70, just as God forgave us 7x70.

So Christians do not preach to others that if behavior does not measure up to perfection or some unknown minimum standard, then such offenders are condemned/lost. Anyone who does judge this way are clearly in unbelief as their works confirms.

 

[B-A-C]

And the goal or shots that we Christians are aiming at is to believe in Jesus and love one another.

and to love God with all our heart, mind, soul and strength

 

[james1523]

The proof of salvation that God seeks in us is that we believe His promises. Believe in Jesus and we will have eternal life.
And His commandments which believers obey, are seen in 1 John 3:23
1: Believe in Jesus.
2:Love one another.

Now to love one another is often seen in terms of forgiving each other 7x70. Just as God loved us and forgave us.

But those who preach doctrines that people are condemned/lost if they do not measure up to perfection or some unknown lessor minimum standard of behavior, then such people will likewise not be forgiven by God.

In this imperfect world nobody is going to be perfect in behavior.

But, as you claim we are to have "imparted" righteousness which confirms we are saved, then I ask you what level of good behavior proves that we have this?
Is it to be perfect?
Or is some lessor, yet acceptable level ok?
And what measure do you claim we use?

Belief and loving one another are indeed some necessary proofs of salvation, but they are not the only proofs. Suppose a dog receives a cats life, if the dog only believes he's received the cats life..and he loves other dogs... because they are dogs like him... but the dog is still behaving like a dog... how can we say the dog has a cats life and nature? So belief and loving one another are not the sufficient and only proof of salvation. According to Matt 3:8 the minimum is turning from sins (repentance) and turning towards God.

"But those who preach doctrines that people are condemned/lost if they do not measure up to perfection or some unknown lessor minimum standard of behavior, then such people will likewise not be forgiven by God."

You have just declared a minimum standard of behavior yourself, for a person to be forgiven by God - which is that a person must preach correct doctrine. Where in the Bible does it say that God will only forgive those who preach correct doctrine?


"But, as you claim we are to have "imparted" righteousness which confirms we are saved, then I ask you what level of good behavior proves that we have this?
Is it to be perfect?
Or is some lessor, yet acceptable level ok?
And what measure do you claim we use?"

At minimum, is to turn from sins (repentance) and turn towards God as it says :
Matt 3:8 Prove by the way you live that you have repented of your sins and turned to God.

Belief and love are not sufficient proof in and of themselves. Even Muslims believe in Jesus the Prophet and they love one another because they are Muslim brothers and sisters. Even Jehovah Witnesses believe in Jesus and they love one another too. But any further proofs (e.g. improved behavior) are meaningless without faith in Christ and love for God and one another.

 

[B-A-C]

@Barny:

In post #157 you quoted me saying "there is a minimum number of shots", but it should say, "there is NO minimum number of shots".