Should Christians be Pacifist?

[Butch5]

So now you are the authority on what Jesus meant huh? Nah, its just a way for those like you to ignore obvious statements.

Who's ignoring the 300 years of Church history and teaching on this subject?

 

[KingJ]

Then you also have to contend that for 300 years all Christians, including those taught by the apostles, were in conflict with every verse of Scriptures that says a Christian must live by faith. Are you willing to make that contention?

I am assuming you are referring to the '300' years before Christianity was legalized in 311 AD?

According to wikipedia the estimates of the number of dead Christians in this period is between 1. WHC Frend estimated that 3,000–3,50 and 2. The historian Min Seok Shin estimates that over 23,500 Christians suffered martyrdom under Diocletian.

The total number of Christians at that time was estimated at between 6-15 million, making 23 500 out of the most conservative number of 6 million, only 0.39% of all Christians. Not even 1%?

Persecution of Christians in the Roman Empire - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

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Do you assume that Christians did not have secret meetings during this time? Is that a form of self defense that is allowed? Where would you draw the line? Would Christian men pray and fast whilst their daughters are being raped? Is that Christianity 101?

There is a lot to consider with the persecution of Christians. Jesus for example says in Matt 24:16 '' do not go back to your house, flee!''. Note He does not say, ''go back to your house and lie in bed''.

Also, I'm not sure how you see it as in conflict with a Christian living by faith. Depending on God for one's security is the very definition of faith. It's the one who defends himself that is not relying of God in faith.

God would have to do miracles every five seconds to protect us. There would be zero need for 'living by faith'. The early Jews for example, those who saw the red sea part, I doubt they needed much 'faith' in their walk with God. Is this not obvious?

Where does 'relying on God' become testing and tempting God? Would you propose Christians not get vaccinated? (not referring to Covid, that vaccine was rushed ) If your children are ill you would not go to a doctor?

I think the real issue here is that many Christians don't believe that God will defend them. If they truly believed it they wouldn't defend themselves.

Many Christians know that God gave them working brains to invent vaccines, hands to defend themselves, eyes to see danger, nose to smell poison, taste-buds to taste rotten food before swallowing. To ignore these realities would be to test God.
_______________________

As the link in the OP that @MedicBravo posted correctly stated, Christian pacifists have cherry picked a few scriptures. You cannot and must not do that. Scripture corrects scripture.

The devil said ''jump, angels will catch you''. Jesus corrected him by quoting 'more' scripture. If someone is trying to push you off a cliff and God provides a branch that can be used to escape. Must you just ignore it?

God does create a way of escape. Today, in wars, that assistance comes in the form of Christian soldiers in the army defending the woman and children at home from wicked men. Non-Christian men I would think avoid the army. Death is terrible if you believe you only have this life.

I cannot believe we are even debating this topic . I expect a Jehovah's witness to disagree not a protestant Christian.

 

[KingJ]

Butch, you and Hekuran keep posting your opinions as "the" authoritative source. Medic Bravo and I are sold out to the Christ, making the Scriptures the Finale Court of Arbitration. This selling out is what brings the Indwelling of Ruach/the Holy Spirit. MB has proven his case and you stand there like the Lost Man I once was, pleading a pointless, unbase, tearful case. Being a disabled war veteran myself, I dispise war because the heart of man is revealed there. watch waThat does not mean that I will not drive my wheelchair out and watch, tearfully, as the captors march past, Then as their backs are to me I will snipe 1 to 6 before there send me into Eternity. We are called to defend.

Thanks for your service Bill!! Much appreciated!!

 

[Bill Taylor]

@Bill Taylor it's not a matter of opinion that the church was non-violent for the first three centuries, it is a matter of fact. The great thinkers in the early church - Cyprian, Tertullian, Origen - were united in renouncing violence. There is no contemporary record of any debate about this. Here's a very well know passage from Tertullian -- better to be slain than to slay:

“If we are enjoined, then, to love our enemies, as I have remarked above, whom have we to hate? If injured, we are forbidden to retaliate, lest we become as bad ourselves: who can suffer injury at our hands? . . . We are but of yesterday, and we have filled every place among you—cities, islands, fortresses, towns, market-places, the very camp, tribes, companies, palace, senate, forum,—we have left nothing to you but the temples of your gods. For what wars should we not be fit, not eager, even with unequal forces, we who so willingly yield ourselves to the sword, if in our religion it were not counted better to be slain than to slay?” (Tertullian, Apology 38)​

I am very sorry you misunderstood. The Word of Yahova and Yashua is and will remain the final arbitrator in all matters for the Followers of the book. If you use the words of men to negate the Word you are (being nice) not acting properly for a Christian.

 

[joestue]

In my experience God gives us the necessary information to choose the correct path. and rarely does it include standing idly by while your neighbors are taken away as political prisoners.

its important to believe that satan/aka the governments of the world, the drug dealers, the tax man, the cartels.. they don't, and never have cared what you think.

they care what you do and how much money they are making off of you.

let 50 homeless people live on your farm self sufficiently? you'll need God's help to do that, just about anywhere on the planet.

now, God is not mocked, you'll reap what you sow. governments too.. but governments are made up of people, not entities..
so when you reap what you sow.. who dies? more innocent people.
had the feds not blown up David Koresh - Wikipedia the oklahoma city bombing probably wouldn't have happened.

who is at fault? the person who stands idly by and keep voting the same way..

so the only solution is to leave the rat race behind.

 

[MedicBravo]

I am assuming you are referring to the '300' years before Christianity was legalized in 311 AD?

According to wikipedia the estimates of the number of dead Christians in this period is between 1. WHC Frend estimated that 3,000–3,50 and 2. The historian Min Seok Shin estimates that over 23,500 Christians suffered martyrdom under Diocletian.

The total number of Christians at that time was estimated at between 6-15 million, making 23 500 out of the most conservative number of 6 million, only 0.39% of all Christians. Not even 1%?

Persecution of Christians in the Roman Empire - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

-----------------------

Do you assume that Christians did not have secret meetings during this time? Is that a form of self defense that is allowed? Where would you draw the line? Would Christian men pray and fast whilst their daughters are being raped? Is that Christianity 101?

There is a lot to consider with the persecution of Christians. Jesus for example says in Matt 24:16 '' do not go back to your house, flee!''. Note He does not say, ''go back to your house and lie in bed''.



God would have to do miracles every five seconds to protect us. There would be zero need for 'living by faith'. The early Jews for example, those who saw the red sea part, I doubt they needed much 'faith' in their walk with God. Is this not obvious?

Where does 'relying on God' become testing and tempting God? Would you propose Christians not get vaccinated? (not referring to Covid, that vaccine was rushed ) If your children are ill you would not go to a doctor?



Many Christians know that God gave them working brains to invent vaccines, hands to defend themselves, eyes to see danger, nose to smell poison, taste-buds to taste rotten food before swallowing. To ignore these realities would be to test God.
_______________________

As the link in the OP that @MedicBravo posted correctly stated, Christian pacifists have cherry picked a few scriptures. You cannot and must not do that. Scripture corrects scripture.

The devil said ''jump, angels will catch you''. Jesus corrected him by quoting 'more' scripture. If someone is trying to push you off a cliff and God provides a branch that can be used to escape. Must you just ignore it?

God does create a way of escape. Today, in wars, that assistance comes in the form of Christian soldiers in the army defending the woman and children at home from wicked men. Non-Christian men I would think avoid the army. Death is terrible if you believe you only have this life.

I cannot believe we are even debating this topic . I expect a Jehovah's witness to disagree not a protestant Christian.

@KingJ
Lots of good information.
Anyone can type in a phrase and find verses for what they want and it will be taken out of context.
Ex:
1 Peter 3:9 "9 "Do not repay evil with evil or insult with insult. On the contrary, repay evil with blessing, because to this you were called so that you may inherit a blessing."
I could list all manner of examples of "evil" on a Christian by another person. This is a warning about revenge, anger, and hate.
There is a difference between a slap and full-on punch which depending on the location can not only put someone in the hospital but maim and kill.
To suggest, as some do that we take abuse and harm and even death without response is laughably absurd.

 

[joestue]

going further than what i said a moment ago.

How much blood on a person's hands do they need before you lift a finger to stop them taking more?

and don't tell me "what if they might be saved in the future"
what of the people they kill, steal, abduct, destroy?

 

[Hekuran]

I am very sorry you misunderstood. The Word of Yahova and Yashua is and will remain the final arbitrator in all matters for the Followers of the book. If you use the words of men to negate the Word you are (being nice) not acting properly for a Christian.

Yes, I agree that the teaching of the Bible should be our final authority.

Please explain to me what you think I have misunderstood. I have stated a fact about the first Christians, and backed it up with an example.

 

[Bill Taylor]

On the contrary, Bill. What I have posted are historical facts. I haven't given my opinion on this subject. I realize that these facts are inconvenient for many Christians. However, they are historical facts nonetheless. I'm not sure why telling Christians they can't use violence draws such ire from so many. After all, we do serve the "Prince of Peace."

This isn't entirely accurate. It gives a false sense of authority to your "interpretation." While you seek the Scriptures for understanding, it is "your" interpretation that you actually hold as the final authority. The Scri[ptures are your final authority only when you correctly understand them. Since your understanding of them is not in line with the historical facts I would have to submit that it is your Interpretation that you're arguing is the final authority

Actually, he hasn't. His "case" does not align with the historical facts as presented.

That's between you and God. Better hope you're right.

Butch, you also missed the point. The Bible is the final court of arbitration for any Follower of the Christ.

 

[Bill Taylor]

Yes, I agree that the teaching of the Bible should be our final authority.

Please explain to me what you think I have misunderstood. I have stated a fact about the first Christians, and backed it up with an example.

you want me to dwell on someone's skewed reporting of history and then let it carry more weight on my life than the Word my LORD left to guide me... just crazy if you did understand and still posted that trash. History is His Story in my life and every followers life.

 

[Hekuran]

To suggest, as some do, that we take abuse and harm and even death without response is laughably absurd.

Hi @MedicBravo , the typical Christian non-violence approach is to respond to threats and abuse. It is merely a commitment not to repay evil in kind - not to respond to violence with violence, nor evil with evil.

 

[Hekuran]

you want me to dwell on someine's skewed reporting of history and then let it carry more weight on my life than the Word my LORD left to guide me... just crazy if you did understand and still posted that trash.

Pardon me. It's not trash, it's the teaching of the church fathers.

 

[Bill Taylor]

aid Pardon me. It's not trash, it's the teaching of the church fathers.watched

I am sorry but in the face of Yahova's Holy Word, it matters not and should never guide the heart of a Christian. You remind me of the German Christian that watched and said and did nothing as the Brown Shirt Nazis collected the Insane and gassed them. Then he watched as the gathered up the Jews, then the Methodists and on until they came for him and noone was left to save him. In Texan; it ain't scriptural, son.

 

[Hekuran]

I am sorry but in the face of Yahova's Holy Word, it matters not and should never guide the heart of a Christian. You remind me of the German Christian that watched and said and did nothing as the Brown Shirt Nazis collected the Insane and gassed them. Then he watched as the gathered up the Jews, then the Methodists and on until they came for him and noone was left to save him. In Texan; it ain't scriptural, son.

Again, the non-violent approach is not about doing nothing in the face of evil, it is about responding in a way that does not replicate evil.

And you claim the authority of the Bible. What New Testament teaching do you have in mind?

 

[Hekuran]

I am sorry but in the face of Yahova's Holy Word, it matters not and should never guide the heart of a Christian. You remind me of the German Christian that watched and said and did nothing as the Brown Shirt Nazis collected the Insane and gassed them. Then he watched as the gathered up the Jews, then the Methodists and on until they came for him and noone was left to save him. In Texan; it ain't scriptural, son.

I think it's this poem you have in mind, written by a German pastor who was held in a concentration camp during WWII. Note, it's about speaking out, not violent resistance.

First they came for the Communists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Communist
Then they came for the Socialists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Socialist
Then they came for the trade unionists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a trade unionist
Then they came for the Jews
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Jew
Then they came for me
And there was no one left
To speak out for me

Holocaust Memorial Day Trust | First They Came – by Pastor Martin Niemöller

First They Came is a poem by Pastor Martin Niemoller

www.hmd.org.uk

 

[KingJ]

Again, the non-violent approach is not about doing nothing in the face of evil, it is about responding in a way that does not replicate evil.

And you claim the authority of the Bible. What New Testament teaching do you have in mind?

I don't think many here, if any disagree with the statement of not repaying evil with evil. All Christians should agree with Geneva convention type laws in dealing with the wicked.

I say that but then remember how my post on 'what to expect in hell' has the majority believing God will repay evil with evil.

I am just curious, in that thread, what was your vote?

What to expect in hell

Hi all I am very interested in your interpretation of scripture on hell / eternal lake of fire. I think a poll will show this. Feel free to explain why you believe as you do. I mention pets as they speak to a more humane living condition. Many unrepentant sinners love pets and treat them...

www.talkjesus.com

 

[Hekuran]

I don't think many here, if any disagree with the statement of not repaying evil with evil.

I was responding to @Bill Taylor who has been indulging in fantasies about shooting his enemies in the back

 

[Brad Huber]

Who's ignoring the 300 years of Church history and teaching on this subject?

"Obviously", what Jesus says in scripture "should" carry more weight than what early christian leaders believed. Its sad that you chose to believe them over scripture.

 

[MedicBravo]

Hi @MedicBravo , the typical Christian non-violence approach is to respond to threats and abuse. It is merely a commitment not to repay evil in kind - not to respond to violence with violence, nor evil with evil.

Self defense and of others is not evil.

 

[MedicBravo]

going further than what i said a moment ago.

How much blood on a person's hands do they need before you lift a finger to stop them taking more?

and don't tell me "what if they might be saved in the future"
what of the people they kill, steal, abduct, destroy?

Only a good person can stop an evil person.