Sinners Reject God's Word and Create their own Theology

[Dylan569]

There is agreement between the 413 year old KJV, and the 3 year old NRSVue on many verses rejected by those who wish to teach doctrines foreign to the Holy Scriptures.

"Joshua made war a long time with all those kings. There was not a city that made peace with the children of Israel, save the Hivites the inhabitants of Gibeon: all other they took in battle. For it was of the LORD to harden their hearts, that they should come against Israel in battle, that he might destroy them utterly, and that they might have no favour, but that he might destroy them, as the LORD commanded Moses." (Jos 11:18-20 KJV)
"Joshua made war a long time with all those kings. There was not a town that made peace with the Israelites except the Hivites, the inhabitants of Gibeon; all were taken in battle. For it was the LORD’s doing to harden their hearts so that they would come against Israel in battle, in order that they might be utterly destroyed and might receive no mercy but be exterminated, just as the LORD had commanded Moses." (Jos 11:18-20 NRSVue)

"The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil." (Pro 16:4 KJV)
"The LORD has made everything for its purpose, even the wicked for the day of trouble." (Pro 16:4 NRSVue)

"For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth." (Rom 9:17-18 KJV)
"For the scripture says to Pharaoh, 'I have raised you up for this very purpose, that I may show my power in you and that my name may be proclaimed in all the earth.' So then he has mercy on whomever he chooses, and he hardens the heart of whomever he chooses." (Rom 9:17-18 NRSVue)

"And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed." (1Pe 2:8 KJV)
“'A stone that makes them stumble and a rock that makes them fall.'” They stumble because they disobey the word, as they were destined to do." (1Pe 2:8 NRSVue)

"But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;" (2Pe 2:12 KJV)
"These people, however, are like irrational animals, mere creatures of instinct, born to be caught and killed. They slander what they do not understand, and as those creatures are destroyed, they also will be destroyed," (2Pe 2:12 NRSVue)

"For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ." (Jud 1:4 KJV)
"For certain intruders have stolen in among you, people who long ago were designated for this condemnation as ungodly, who pervert the grace of our God into debauchery and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ." (Jud 1:4 NRSVue)

The Bible, being a book about redemption by God, speaks of God's everlasting love, solely to His elect, which love cannot be said of those ending up in the everlasting lake of fire.
"In a little wrath I hid my face from thee for a moment; but with everlasting kindness will I have mercy on thee, saith the LORD thy Redeemer." (Isa 54:8 KJV)
"In overflowing wrath for a moment I hid my face from you, but with everlasting love I will have compassion on you, says the LORD, your Redeemer." (Isa 54:8 NRSVue)

"The LORD hath appeared of old unto me, saying, Yea, I have loved thee with an everlasting love: therefore with lovingkindness have I drawn thee." (Jer 31:3 KJV)
"the LORD appeared to him from far away. I have loved you with an everlasting love; therefore I have continued my faithfulness to you." (Jer 31:3 NRSVue)

"Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied." (1Pe 1:1-2 KJV)
"Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To the exiles of the dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who have been chosen and destined by God the Father and sanctified by the Spirit to be obedient to Jesus Christ and to be sprinkled with his blood: May grace and peace be yours in abundance." (1Pe 1:1-2 NRSVue)

From the BDAG on meaning of foreknowledge:
foreknowledge "predetermination, of God’s omniscient wisdom and intention (so Alex. Aphr., Fat. 30 p. 200, 31 Br.; Proverbia Aesopi 131 P.; Jdth 9:6; Just., D. 92, 5 πρόγνωσιν ἔχων) w. βουλή Ac 2:23. κατὰ πρόγνωσιν θεοῦ πατρός destined by God the Father (NRSV) 1 Pt 1:2 (Just., D. 134, 4; s. WArndt, CTM 9, 1929, 41–43).—DELG s.v. γιγνώσκω. M-M. TW."

From the Thayer on the meaning of foreknowledge:
foreknowledge "forethought, prearrangement (see προβλέπω): 1Pe 1:2; Act 2:23"

 

[Rhema]

There is agreement between the 413 year old KJV, and the 3 year old NRSVue on many verses rejected by those who wish to teach doctrines foreign to the Holy Scriptures.

You mean like Gay sex being okay with God?

Yep... you have provided a perfect example for your thread title.

Rhema

 

[Rhema]

From the BDAG

An inbred cultic lexicon providing Evangelical only entries to sell to the Evangelical customers.

From the Thayer

A lexicon outdated before it was even published.

All those books in your library, and not an ounce of wisdom.

Amazing,
Rhema

 

[B-A-C]

An inbred cultic lexicon providing Evangelical only entries to sell to the Evangelical customers.

A lexicon outdated before it was even published.

Everyone has an opinion.

 

[Rhema]

Everyone has an opinion.

But few have an informed opinion.

 

[backNforth]

...the 3 year old NRSVue...

Corrupt and eclectic Greek and Hebrew texts underly the corrupt new versions, e.g. the NASB and NRSV. The National Council of Churches holds the copyright of the New Revised Standard Version Updated Edition.

The RV changed into the RSV, which changed into the NRSV and ESV. The RV also became the ASV, which was reformed into
the NASV, translated in part from readings based on the Catholic Vaticanus manuscript.

The NRSV and the NASB are so close to Roman Catholic doctrine; all new versions have salvation by works, a lower view of Jesus Christ, and a higher view of man. Over forty years of using these versions has convinced some evangelical and charismatic “leaders” that Rome is not as
bad as Luther, Calvin, Zwingli, and the Anabaptists believed. Second Thessalonians 2:3 warned, “Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition…” The new versions follow the exact same Greek manuscripts that the Catholic church has used since Constantine (A.D. 330). The true church throughout history never used those Alexandrian-type manuscripts (Vaticanus, Sinaiticus, P75, et al.). They always knew that these manuscripts were corrupt. But now, in these last days of the prophesied “falling away,” these manuscripts have been resurrected to prod the fall and finally to usher in the one-world ‘church’ of Satan.

To further illustrate, Constantine, the Roman Emperor in the fourth century A.D., wanted to unite the pagans and the Christians; therefore he needed a religious document that appeased both. It had to have both the Christian and the shortened pagan adaptation of the Lord's Prayer in it. He called for the creation of the Vaticanus and Sinaiticus manuscripts, which now underlie new versions. This is why we see new versions with one kind of Lord's Prayer in Matthew and another kind of Lord's Prayer in Luke.

The manuscripts he created disappeared from use from the fourth century until the late nineteenth century. In 1881 liberal churchmen, Westcott, Hort, and other spiritualists and liberals in England, saw in those manuscripts the same ecumenical spirit that Constantine liked sixteen hundred years earlier. Westcott and Hort modified the historical Greek New Testament text to match those manuscripts.

SINNERS REJECT GOD'S WORD AND CREATE THEIR OWN THEOLOGY​

​

 

[Rhema]

SINNERS REJECT GOD'S WORD AND CREATE THEIR OWN THEOLOGY​

Apparently they create their own history too.

 

[Dylan569]

Corrupt and eclectic Greek and Hebrew texts underly the corrupt new versions, e.g. the NASB and NRSV. The National Council of Churches holds the copyright of the New Revised Standard Version Updated Edition.

The RV changed into the RSV, which changed into the NRSV and ESV. The RV also became the ASV, which was reformed into
the NASV, translated in part from readings based on the Catholic Vaticanus manuscript.

The NRSV and the NASB are so close to Roman Catholic doctrine; all new versions have salvation by works, a lower view of Jesus Christ, and a higher view of man. Over forty years of using these versions has convinced some evangelical and charismatic “leaders” that Rome is not as
bad as Luther, Calvin, Zwingli, and the Anabaptists believed. Second Thessalonians 2:3 warned, “Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition…” The new versions follow the exact same Greek manuscripts that the Catholic church has used since Constantine (A.D. 330). The true church throughout history never used those Alexandrian-type manuscripts (Vaticanus, Sinaiticus, P75, et al.). They always knew that these manuscripts were corrupt. But now, in these last days of the prophesied “falling away,” these manuscripts have been resurrected to prod the fall and finally to usher in the one-world ‘church’ of Satan.

To further illustrate, Constantine, the Roman Emperor in the fourth century A.D., wanted to unite the pagans and the Christians; therefore he needed a religious document that appeased both. It had to have both the Christian and the shortened pagan adaptation of the Lord's Prayer in it. He called for the creation of the Vaticanus and Sinaiticus manuscripts, which now underlie new versions. This is why we see new versions with one kind of Lord's Prayer in Matthew and another kind of Lord's Prayer in Luke.

The manuscripts he created disappeared from use from the fourth century until the late nineteenth century. In 1881 liberal churchmen, Westcott, Hort, and other spiritualists and liberals in England, saw in those manuscripts the same ecumenical spirit that Constantine liked sixteen hundred years earlier. Westcott and Hort modified the historical Greek New Testament text to match those manuscripts.

​

BakNforth, you wrote: "all new versions have salvation by works, a lower view of Jesus Christ, and a higher view of man" but you gave no scripture texts as examples. On the opposite view, which of the following translations emphasizes the Deity of Jesus Christ the best:

No one has ever seen God. It is God the only Son, who is close to the Father’s heart, who has made him known. (John 1:18 NRSV)

No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared [him]. (John 1:18 KJV)

There is much made about the Formal Equivalence Translation approach, direct word for word against the Dynamic Equivalence approach which does not interpreting in the translation;

The NRSV uses the Formal Equivalence translation of Isaiah 7:14 -

Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign. Look, the young woman is with child and shall bear a son, and shall name him Immanuel. (Isa 7:14 NRSV) *The NRSV in the footnote: "Grk virgin".
The Septuagint takes the Dynamic Equivalence approach which is quoted in Matthew:

Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; behold, a virgin shall conceive in the womb, and shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Emmanuel. (Isa 7:14 LXXE)

Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us. (Matt 1:23 KJV)

Jesus and the Apostles often read and quoted from the Septuagint.

 

[Rhema]

BakNforth, you wrote: "all new versions have salvation by works, a lower view of Jesus Christ, and a higher view of man" but you gave no scripture texts as examples. On the opposite view, which of the following translations emphasizes the Deity of Jesus Christ the best:

No one has ever seen God. It is God the only Son, who is close to the Father’s heart, who has made him known. (John 1:18 NRSV)

No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared [him]. (John 1:18 KJV)

YO DYLAN,

What you've failed to mention (on purpose? or do you just do not know?) is that there are two distinct families of Greek manuscript compilations (the Byzantine and the Alexandrian) that quite differ from one another on this verse, John 1:18. I highlight the differences:

Textus Receptus (aka The Byzantine texts) reads:

θεον ουδεις εωρακεν πωποτε ο μονογενης υιος ο ων εις τον κολπον του πατρος εκεινος εξηγησατο​

The Alexandrian (aka Westcott Hort) reads:

θεον ουδεις εωρακεν πωποτε μονογενης θεος ο ων εις τον κολπον του πατρος εκεινος εξηγησατο​

The TR family reads SON, while the Alexandrian reads GOD. So look at the NRSV upon which you've based your belief -Your beloved NRSV is a bastardization of both.

No one has ever seen God. It is God the only Son, who is close to the Father's heart, who has made him known.​

(John 1:18 NRSV)

There is NO manuscript that has both θεος AND υιος in the same phrase. It either reads, μονογενης υιος OR μονογενης θεος. The phrase "God the only Son" is NOT present unless you invent a fictional manuscript - one born of adultery, twisting words together in order to present a biased theology. The absolute hubris of birthing a mutant translation of fiction is quite beyond me, or any other HONEST scholar.

I'd suggest that you select your translation wisely, but you have ALL THOSE BOOKS, and not one ounce of wisdom.

Rhema
(knowing you have me on ignore because you just cannot stand rational truth.)

 

[Admon Mikha'el]

There is agreement between the 413 year old KJV, and the 3 year old NRSVue on many verses rejected by those who wish to teach doctrines foreign to the Holy Scriptures.

"Joshua made war a long time with all those kings. There was not a city that made peace with the children of Israel, save the Hivites the inhabitants of Gibeon: all other they took in battle. For it was of the LORD to harden their hearts, that they should come against Israel in battle, that he might destroy them utterly, and that they might have no favour, but that he might destroy them, as the LORD commanded Moses." (Jos 11:18-20 KJV)
"Joshua made war a long time with all those kings. There was not a town that made peace with the Israelites except the Hivites, the inhabitants of Gibeon; all were taken in battle. For it was the LORD’s doing to harden their hearts so that they would come against Israel in battle, in order that they might be utterly destroyed and might receive no mercy but be exterminated, just as the LORD had commanded Moses." (Jos 11:18-20 NRSVue)

"The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil." (Pro 16:4 KJV)
"The LORD has made everything for its purpose, even the wicked for the day of trouble." (Pro 16:4 NRSVue)

"For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth." (Rom 9:17-18 KJV)
"For the scripture says to Pharaoh, 'I have raised you up for this very purpose, that I may show my power in you and that my name may be proclaimed in all the earth.' So then he has mercy on whomever he chooses, and he hardens the heart of whomever he chooses." (Rom 9:17-18 NRSVue)

"And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed." (1Pe 2:8 KJV)
“'A stone that makes them stumble and a rock that makes them fall.'” They stumble because they disobey the word, as they were destined to do." (1Pe 2:8 NRSVue)

"But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;" (2Pe 2:12 KJV)
"These people, however, are like irrational animals, mere creatures of instinct, born to be caught and killed. They slander what they do not understand, and as those creatures are destroyed, they also will be destroyed," (2Pe 2:12 NRSVue)

"For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ." (Jud 1:4 KJV)
"For certain intruders have stolen in among you, people who long ago were designated for this condemnation as ungodly, who pervert the grace of our God into debauchery and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ." (Jud 1:4 NRSVue)

The Bible, being a book about redemption by God, speaks of God's everlasting love, solely to His elect, which love cannot be said of those ending up in the everlasting lake of fire.
"In a little wrath I hid my face from thee for a moment; but with everlasting kindness will I have mercy on thee, saith the LORD thy Redeemer." (Isa 54:8 KJV)
"In overflowing wrath for a moment I hid my face from you, but with everlasting love I will have compassion on you, says the LORD, your Redeemer." (Isa 54:8 NRSVue)

"The LORD hath appeared of old unto me, saying, Yea, I have loved thee with an everlasting love: therefore with lovingkindness have I drawn thee." (Jer 31:3 KJV)
"the LORD appeared to him from far away. I have loved you with an everlasting love; therefore I have continued my faithfulness to you." (Jer 31:3 NRSVue)

"Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied." (1Pe 1:1-2 KJV)
"Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To the exiles of the dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who have been chosen and destined by God the Father and sanctified by the Spirit to be obedient to Jesus Christ and to be sprinkled with his blood: May grace and peace be yours in abundance." (1Pe 1:1-2 NRSVue)

From the BDAG on meaning of foreknowledge:
foreknowledge "predetermination, of God’s omniscient wisdom and intention (so Alex. Aphr., Fat. 30 p. 200, 31 Br.; Proverbia Aesopi 131 P.; Jdth 9:6; Just., D. 92, 5 πρόγνωσιν ἔχων) w. βουλή Ac 2:23. κατὰ πρόγνωσιν θεοῦ πατρός destined by God the Father (NRSV) 1 Pt 1:2 (Just., D. 134, 4; s. WArndt, CTM 9, 1929, 41–43).—DELG s.v. γιγνώσκω. M-M. TW."

From the Thayer on the meaning of foreknowledge:
foreknowledge "forethought, prearrangement (see προβλέπω): 1Pe 1:2; Act 2:23"

I wonder why Joshua made peace with the Hivites? He was tricked. The Hivites were giants and were totally evil

 

[backNforth]

BakNforth, you wrote: "all new versions have salvation by works, a lower view of Jesus Christ, and a higher view of man" but you gave no scripture texts as examples.

The thread was not going in that direction, so I avoided posting long.

Jesus and the Apostles often read and quoted from the Septuagint.

Yet again, I will rebut that lie with the facts.

There are absolutely no manuscripts pre-dating the third century A.D. to validate the claim that Jesus or Paul quoted a Greek Old Testament. Quotations by Jesus and Paul in new versions’ New Testaments may match readings in the so-called Septuagint because new versions are from the exact same corrupt fourth and fifth century A.D. manuscripts which underlie the document sold today and called the Septuagint. These manuscripts are Alexandrinus, Vaticanus, and Sinaiticus.

According to the colophon on the end of Sinaiticus, it came from Origen’s Hexapla. The others likely did also. Even church historians, Jerome, Hort, and our contemporary D.A. Carson, would agree that this is true. Origen wrote his Hexapla two hundred years after the life of Christ and Paul! NIV New Testament and Old Testament quotes may match occasionally because both originated from a manuscript penned by the same hand - a hand which recast both Old and New Testament to suit his Platonic and Gnostic leanings. New versions take the Sinaiticus, Vaticanus, and Alexandrinus manuscripts - which came from Origen’s Hexapla - and change the traditional Masoretic Old Testament text to match these. Alfred Martin, who was a past vice-president of Moody Bible Institute, called Origen “unsafe.” Origen’s Hexapla is a very unsafe source to use to change the historic Hebrew Old Testament.

The preface of the Septuagint marketed today points out that the stories surrounding the B.C. (before Christ) creation of the Septuagint (also called the LXX) and the existence of a Greek Old Testament are based on fables. All of the Septuagint manuscripts cited in its concordance were written after A.D. 200 and represent Origen’s Hexapla, in kind. The Encyclopedia of Religion and Ethics elaborates, calling “the letter of
the pseudo-Aristeas, a manifest forgery and the fragments of Aristobulus highly suspect.” It also points out many of the LXX’s Gnostic and Platonic readings.

The fable of the Septuagint arose from the counterfeit letter of pseudo-Aristeas. It said that seventy-two scholars were called, around 250 B.C., by Ptolemy, king of Egypt, to create a Greek Old Testament. This Egyptian ruler supposedly asked them a number of questions related to pagan philosophy and pagan theology. If they could answer these questions, they could be on the Septuagint ‘committee.’ The fable further pretends that six Jews from each of the twelve tribes were involved. The word Septuagint means seventy, however, not seventy-two. The Septuagint (LXX) cannot be the word of God for several reasons:

1. Only the tribe of Levi was permitted by God to write the scriptures (1 Chron. 16:4).

2. Any Jew living in or returning to Egypt was in direct disobedience to God’s command in Deuteronomy 17:16. “But he shall not... cause the people to return to Egypt... forasmuch as the LORD hath said unto you, Ye shall henceforth return no more that way.”

3. It contains apocryphal books such as Tobit, The Prayer of Manasses, 2 Esdras, Wisdom, Ecclesiasticus, \Baruch, 1 and 2 Maccabees; there are also additions to Esther and Daniel. Jesus never quoted the Apocrypha and the Jews rejected it also. (Corrupt manuscripts followed by the NIV, TNIV, ESV, HCSB, and NASB contain these false books within the Old Testament text itself!)

4. Origen’s six-column Old Testament, the Hexapla, parallels O.T. versions by Theodotian, Symmachus, and Aquilla. All three were Gnostic occultists.

What you've failed to mention (on purpose? or do you just do not know?) is that there are two distinct families of Greek manuscript compilations (the Byzantine and the Alexandrian) that quite differ from one another...

Indeed there are two "families."

But, as an S.O. (Scholarship-Only) proponent, Rhema conflates the two families because he is without spiritual discernment and thus fails to recognize one family is of God and one is of Satan.

 

[Dylan569]

The thread was not going in that direction, so I avoided posting long.


Yet again, I will rebut that lie with the facts.

There are absolutely no manuscripts pre-dating the third century A.D. to validate the claim that Jesus or Paul quoted a Greek Old Testament. Quotations by Jesus and Paul in new versions’ New Testaments may match readings in the so-called Septuagint because new versions are from the exact same corrupt fourth and fifth century A.D. manuscripts which underlie the document sold today and called the Septuagint. These manuscripts are Alexandrinus, Vaticanus, and Sinaiticus.

According to the colophon on the end of Sinaiticus, it came from Origen’s Hexapla. The others likely did also. Even church historians, Jerome, Hort, and our contemporary D.A. Carson, would agree that this is true. Origen wrote his Hexapla two hundred years after the life of Christ and Paul! NIV New Testament and Old Testament quotes may match occasionally because both originated from a manuscript penned by the same hand - a hand which recast both Old and New Testament to suit his Platonic and Gnostic leanings. New versions take the Sinaiticus, Vaticanus, and Alexandrinus manuscripts - which came from Origen’s Hexapla - and change the traditional Masoretic Old Testament text to match these. Alfred Martin, who was a past vice-president of Moody Bible Institute, called Origen “unsafe.” Origen’s Hexapla is a very unsafe source to use to change the historic Hebrew Old Testament.

The preface of the Septuagint marketed today points out that the stories surrounding the B.C. (before Christ) creation of the Septuagint (also called the LXX) and the existence of a Greek Old Testament are based on fables. All of the Septuagint manuscripts cited in its concordance were written after A.D. 200 and represent Origen’s Hexapla, in kind. The Encyclopedia of Religion and Ethics elaborates, calling “the letter of
the pseudo-Aristeas, a manifest forgery and the fragments of Aristobulus highly suspect.” It also points out many of the LXX’s Gnostic and Platonic readings.

The fable of the Septuagint arose from the counterfeit letter of pseudo-Aristeas. It said that seventy-two scholars were called, around 250 B.C., by Ptolemy, king of Egypt, to create a Greek Old Testament. This Egyptian ruler supposedly asked them a number of questions related to pagan philosophy and pagan theology. If they could answer these questions, they could be on the Septuagint ‘committee.’ The fable further pretends that six Jews from each of the twelve tribes were involved. The word Septuagint means seventy, however, not seventy-two. The Septuagint (LXX) cannot be the word of God for several reasons:

1. Only the tribe of Levi was permitted by God to write the scriptures (1 Chron. 16:4).

2. Any Jew living in or returning to Egypt was in direct disobedience to God’s command in Deuteronomy 17:16. “But he shall not... cause the people to return to Egypt... forasmuch as the LORD hath said unto you, Ye shall henceforth return no more that way.”

3. It contains apocryphal books such as Tobit, The Prayer of Manasses, 2 Esdras, Wisdom, Ecclesiasticus, \Baruch, 1 and 2 Maccabees; there are also additions to Esther and Daniel. Jesus never quoted the Apocrypha and the Jews rejected it also. (Corrupt manuscripts followed by the NIV, TNIV, ESV, HCSB, and NASB contain these false books within the Old Testament text itself!)

4. Origen’s six-column Old Testament, the Hexapla, parallels O.T. versions by Theodotian, Symmachus, and Aquilla. All three were Gnostic occultists.


Indeed there are two "families."

But, as an S.O. (Scholarship-Only) proponent, Rhema conflates the two families because he is without spiritual discernment and thus fails to recognize one family is of God and one is of Satan.

The writer of the book of Hebrews quoted from the OT somewhere in 1:6 -

"And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him. (Heb 1:6 KJV)

That is the, KJV, so where in the KJV OT is that quote found? You won't find it in the KJV. It came from the Septuagint:

"Rejoice, ye heavens, with him, and let all the angels of God worship him; rejoice ye Gentiles, with his people, and let all the sons of God strengthen themselves in him; for he will avenge the blood of his sons, and he will render vengeance, and recompense justice to his enemies, and will reward them that hate him; and the Lord shall purge the land of his people." (Deut 32:43 LXXE)

If the writer of Hebrews did not quote the Septuagint, where did it come from? The KJV Only folks can't explain that away!

 

[backNforth]

If the writer of Hebrews did not quote the Septuagint, where did it come from?

...was answered in my previous post. And FYI, the LXX we have now is not the same one that was used 1,700 years ago.

The KJV Only folks can't explain that away!

I'm not one of "[t]he KJV Only folks".

 

[Dylan569]

The Orthodox Church has used the Septuagint from the beginning and the Septuagint is what is found in the 2008 Orthodox Study Bible. A look at our English Bibles by an Orthodox scholar includes a discussion of the Septuagint. The link is: An Orthodox Look at English Translations of the Bible. Fr. John Whiteford

An example from that article I quote to back up what I had written about Hebrews 1:6 -
"Another example is the text quoted in Hebrews 1:6 (And let all the angels of God worship him) which is nowhere to be found in the Masoretic text, but is found in both the Septuagint and the Dead Sea Scrolls Hebrew text in Deuteronomy 32:43."

Another good web site that sheds light on the LXX is: Septuagint Online: Introduction

It pays to be cautious of pseudo-scholarship that gets parroted in the online forums. Do the research online and compare discussions from various reputable sources. Two paragraphs from this Orthodox Church source read as follow.

For the Old Testament, the two textual traditions that the Church has preserved are that of the Greek Septuagint and the Syriac Peshitta. The Latin Vulgate played an important role in the pre-schism western Church, and so it too is a translation worthy of consultation. The Orthodox Church is of course well aware of the fact that most of the Old Testament books were written in Hebrew and Aramaic (the Deuterocanonical books having mostly been written in Greek), however, the Hebrew text that we have today is not the same text that existed during the Old Testament period or at the time of Christ. This is seen in the Dead Sea Scrolls, as well as in the Septuagint, Peshitta, and Latin Vulgate which were all translated from the Hebrew, and yet reflect a Hebrew original that often differs from that which we have today.

The Hebrew Text that has served as the basis for most translations of the Old Testament into English is based almost entirely on the Leningrad Codex, which dates from 1008 A.D. In comparison to the textual evidence that we have for the New Testament Greek text, this is a very late manuscript. It is an example of the Masoretic recension which is usually dated to have been shaped between the 6th and 10th centuries A.D. This is well after the Septuagint was translated (3rd century before Christ), the Peshitta (1st and 2nd Centuries A.D.), or the Vulgate (4th Century A.D.). According to Christian tradition, the non-Christian Jews began making changes in the Old Testament text to undercut the Christian use of Old Testament prophecies concerning the coming of Christ. In any case, the Hebrew Text that we now have was preserved outside the Church. The Septuagint and Peshitta texts were preserved within the Church, and so the Church believes that the text of the Old Testament has been authoritatively preserved in these textual traditions.

 

[backNforth]

Two paragraphs from this Orthodox Church source read as follow.

For the Old Testament, the two textual traditions that the Church has preserved are that of the Greek Septuagint and the Syriac Peshitta. The Latin Vulgate played an important role in the pre-schism western Church, and so it too is a translation worthy of consultation....

Full stop, as their Latin Vulgate is corrupt (a Catholic invention).

What the bewildered Christian fails to understand is that the cultist redefines orthodox terminology to suit his own belief system.

The plumb line of orthodoxy and heresy is given by cult expert Bob Larson who says: The basic fault of cults is that they demote God, devalue Christ, deify man, deny sin and denigrate scripture.

“[T]his may be cowardice -- I have sort of a craving that our text ['New' Greek New Testament] should be cast upon the world before we deal with matters likely to brand us with suspicion. I mean, a text issued by men who are already known for what will undoubtedly be treated as dangerous heresy will have great difficulty in finding its way to regions which it might otherwise hope to reach and whence it would not be easily banished by subsequent alarms....If only we speak our minds, we shall not be able to avoid giving grave offense to...the miscalled orthodoxy of the day." (Hort’s letter to Westcott regarding their writing other things.) (Hort, Vol. I, p. 445.)

http://www.westcotthort.com/books/Arthur_Hort_-_Life_And_Letters_of_Fenton_John_Anthony_Hort_Vol_1_(1896).pdf

 

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Hort's quotes continue...

"...Evangelicals seem to me perverted. . .There are, I fear still more serious differences between us on the subject of authority and especially the authority of the Bible. . .At present very many orthodox but rational men are being unawares acted upon by influences which will assuredly bear good fruit in due time if the process is allowed to go on quietly; but I cannot help fearing that a premature crisis would frighten back many into the merest traditionalism." (Hort, Vol. I, p. 400.)

Hort also refers to, "the common orthodox heresy: Inspiration". (Hort, Vol. I, p. 181.)

Westcott and Hort were necromancers and spiritualists and worse. Kindred spirits seek to communicate with one another.

Hort's co-spiritualist, Wescott, said this:

"I shall be very glad to learn what are the objectionable parts in my sermons. I fancied that I kept wonderfully within the limits of orthodoxy: but I trust that my object was rather to say what I felt rather than square what I said to any scheme." (Westcott, Vol. I, p. 208.)

http://www.westcotthort.com/books/Arthur_Westcott_-_Life_And_Letters_of_Brooke_Foss_Westcott_Vol_1_(1903).pdf

It pays to be cautious of pseudo-scholarship that gets parroted in the online forums. Do the research...

...because...

SINNERS REJECT GOD'S WORD AND CREATE THEIR OWN THEOLOGY​

​

 

[Dylan569]

Hort's quotes continue...

"...Evangelicals seem to me perverted. . .There are, I fear still more serious differences between us on the subject of authority and especially the authority of the Bible. . .At present very many orthodox but rational men are being unawares acted upon by influences which will assuredly bear good fruit in due time if the process is allowed to go on quietly; but I cannot help fearing that a premature crisis would frighten back many into the merest traditionalism." (Hort, Vol. I, p. 400.)

Hort also refers to, "the common orthodox heresy: Inspiration". (Hort, Vol. I, p. 181.)

Westcott and Hort were necromancers and spiritualists and worse. Kindred spirits seek to communicate with one another.

Hort's co-spiritualist, Wescott, said this:

"I shall be very glad to learn what are the objectionable parts in my sermons. I fancied that I kept wonderfully within the limits of orthodoxy: but I trust that my object was rather to say what I felt rather than square what I said to any scheme." (Westcott, Vol. I, p. 208.)

http://www.westcotthort.com/books/Arthur_Westcott_-_Life_And_Letters_of_Brooke_Foss_Westcott_Vol_1_(1903).pdf

...because...

​

When someone writes, "The plumb line of orthodoxy and heresy is given by cult expert Bob Larson", I know the level of knowledge and/or wisdom of the writer because Larson seems to be a fraud. I suggest, for those tempted to pay any attention to "expert Bob Larson" that they do some research online -

Bob Larson - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Compare the articles on the conservative scholar Daniel B. Wallace -

Daniel B. Wallace - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Or check the liberal scholar Bruce M Metzger

Bruce M. Metzger - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Then there is D. A. Carson, evangelical New Testament scholar

D. A. Carson - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

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When someone writes, "The plumb line of orthodoxy and heresy is given by cult expert Bob Larson", I know the level of knowledge and/or wisdom of the writer because Larson seems to be a fraud.

Forget Larson the man. ANYONE versed in cult behavior would observe the same five signs of heresy. Stooping to attack the man is a worn tactic and only sullies your own credibility. Try staying on point.

Rather, the "fraud" lies with the two characters who exposed themselves and their 'new' Greek New Testament via their own tongues, i.e. the spiritualists Westcott and Hort.

...Wikipedia...

One problem with your posts in general is a lack of primary (or even secondary) documentation. I’ll leave it to you to search out the definitions of those two terms. When one values his own opinion above God’s truth, then he will naturally seek out others of like mind in an attempt to verify his own imaginations.

However, the world of opinion is antithetical to the word of God, and no born again believer, firmly on the rock, would dabble with the leaven that is Wikipedia. Perhaps you were unaware that the fake news online encyclopedia Wikipedia is the laughing stock of academia.

As far as the latest study looking at Wikipedia's entries in general, the consensus is that Wikipedia is outdated at best, and blatantly dishonest at worst. People looking for accurate information about a particular issue would do best to look elsewhere, as Wikipedia simply isn't the reliable information source that many people think it is.

Because you’re looking for verifiability, rather than truth, there are countless antichrist internet sites out there willing to accommodate you. Wikipedia is merely one of those sites.

We'll look at one of your paste-up's:

...Metzger...

Today's modern bible versions (NIV, NASB, et al ) are based on the U.B.S. (United Bible Society) and Nestle/Aland texts, which, in turn, are based on the corrupt Westcott & Hort “new” Greek text of 1881.

The term “spiritualist” was ascribed to Wescott by his son. It was a thirty-year project for Westcott and Hort. Upon the release in 1881 of their 'New' Greek text and Revised Version, Hort's son says:

"[T]he work which had gone on now for nearly thirty years was perforce brought to a conclusion..." (Life of Hort, Vol II, p. 145).

This "new" Westcott and Hort Greek text was cloned for the following generation in 1898 by Eberhard Nestle. In 1927 his son Erwin became its warden. He confessed: "Nevertheless, of course, my father knew quite well that a certain one-sidedness adhered to his text..." (Novum Testamentum Graece, eds. Eberhard Nestle, Erwin Nestle, and Kurt Aland, NY: American Bible Society, p. 60).

In 1950, custody was transferred to Kurt Aland, who with the help of Matthew Black, Bruce Metzger and Allen Wikgren, today recommit allegiance to the Wescott-Hort text type.

Few know that the four wheels driving the current U.B.S. Greek New Testament -- Aland, Black, Metzger, and Wikgren -- were being steered by a fifth wheel -- in the driver’s seat -- Italy’s own Carlo M. Martini. His editorship is revealed only on the frontispiece of the edition for translators, lest Protestants panic. NIV and NASB outside, Catholic inside.

In this committee’s book, The Textual Commentary on the Greek New Testament, it gives a behind the scenes view of their work while admitting, “B.F. Westcott and F.J.A. Hort’s...edition...was taken as the basis for the present United Bible Societies edition.” The charge that the new Greek text, and consequently the new versions, are Roman Catholic is confirmed by the church itself, for they have stopped using the Latin Vulgate as a basis of translation and now use the Martini, Metzger, Aland, Black, and Wikgren text. Now both Protestant and Catholic versions are based on the same Vaticanus minority Greek text. (The Nestle text and United Bible Society text are now identical.)

 

[Rhema]

Westcott and Hort were necromancers and spiritualists and worse.

You make claims without substance. (Typical.)

The most radical within the fundamentalist movement are known as the King James Version Onlyist. Gail Riplinger quotes them in her book New Age Bible Versions.[6] In her book, she accuses Westcott of being involved in the occult. Nevertheless, it was Westcott himself who wrote,​

​

Many years ago, I had occasion to investigate “spiritualistic” phenomena with some care, and I came to a clear conclusion, which I feel bound to express in answer to your circular. It appears to me that in this, as in all spiritual questions, Holy Scripture is our supreme guide. I observe, then, that while spiritual ministries are constantly recorded in the Bible, there is not the faintest encouragement to seek them. The case, indeed, is far otherwise. I cannot, therefore, but regard every voluntary approach to beings such as those who are supposed to hold communication with men through mediums as unlawful and perilous. I find in the fact of the Incarnation all that man (so far as I can see) requires for life and hope.[7]​

​

False claim #1: “Writing that his father had a lifelong “faith in what for lack of a better name, one must call Spiritualism,” the son of famed biblical Greek text editor B. F. Westcott admits to considerable public alarm at his father’s activity.” (Jack Chick, Battle Cry, July/August 1993 issue)​

​

This combination of claim and quote comes from the July/August 1993 issue of “Battle Cry”, the newspaper put out by Jack Chick. The quote above still appears on Chick’s website at the time of this writing. Similarly, Gail Riplinger writes “Westcott’s son writes of his father’s lifelong “faith in what for lack of a better name, one must call Spiritualism. . .” ” (Riplinger, New Age Bible Versions, p.407). The context is from where Westcott’s son discusses Westcott’s short-lived involvement in the “Ghostlie Guild” when he was a young man still in university (see James May’s article and Robert L. Sumner’s article for more information), and the entire paragraph the quote is lifted from is as follows (bold added):​

“What happened to this Guild in the end I have not discovered. My father ceased to interest himself in these matters, not altogether, I believe, from want of faith in what, for lack of a better name, one must call Spiritualism, but because he was seriously convinced that such investigations led to no good.” (Life and Letters of Brooke Foss Westcott, Vol. I, p.119)​

​

There are several problems with the claim as made by Chick and Riplinger. First, and most importantly, notice that the quote had “want of” (lack of, e.g. Psalm 23:1) chopped off the front.. Westcott did not have “faith” in Spiritualism, he had “want of [(lack of)] faith” in Spiritualism. Secondly, it was one of two reasons he ceased to interest himself in the the matters the Guild was involved in, shortly after it was formed (notice Chick and Riplinger both falsely use the word “lifelong”). Thirdly, nothing in the quote (or surrounding material) even hints at “public alarm”, let alone “considerable” or even Westcott’s son admitting such. Chick’s claim is completely fabricated, and the quote he chopped to support his claim actually says the exact opposite when the context is examined. The entire quote is somewhat difficult to parse as it stands, but it’s easier to breakdown if viewed as follows: “Westcott ceased, not altogether (not entirely) from want (lack) of faith in Spiritualism, but also because such investigations led to no good.” Was the reason that Westcott ceased due to want (lack) of faith in Spiritualism? Yes, but it was “not altogether” the reason – it was also because “he was seriously convinced that such investigations led to no good.”—Ray McIntyre​

​

Setting Straight the Indefensible Defenders of the Textus Receptus

While Karl Lachmann was the one to overthrow the Textus Receptus, it would be B. F. Westcott and F. J. A. Hort in 1881 who would put the nails in the coffin of the Textus Receptus. The 1881 British Revised Version (RV), also known as the English Revised Version (ERV) of the King James Version, and the 1881 New Testament Greek text of Westcott and Hort did not sit well with the King-James-Version-Only[3] advocate John William Burgon (1813–1888), E. H. A. Scrivener (1813–1891), and Edward Miller (1825–1901), the latter authoring A Guide to the Textual Criticism of the New Testament (1886). We do not have space nor the time to offer a full-scale argument against the King James Version Only and the Textus Receptus Only groups. However, we will address what amounts to their main arguments. This should help the reader to see how desperate and weak their arguments are.

From:

CAN WE TRUST THE WESTCOTT AND HORT 1881 GREEK TEXT?: Were Westcott and Hort Occultist Unbelievers? - Christian Publishing House Blog

Before delving into whether Westcott and Hort were Occultists or unbelievers, let us look at their work first. Brooke Foss Westcott (1825–1901) and Fenton John Anthony Hort (1828–1892) were nineteenth-century theologians and Bible and textual scholars. Together, they produced The New Testament...

christianpublishinghouse.co

Unsubstantiated claims merely reveal the cluelessness of the poster. (And liars lie by clipping off a soundbite.)

Rhema

 

[backNforth]

There are several problems with the claim as made by Chick and Riplinger.

Your "Chick and Riplinger" rant is a non sequitur in this thread (typical).

CAN WE TRUST THE WESTCOTT AND HORT 1881 GEEK TEXT? Were Westcott a...

lol @ your damage control piece from the private company, one-man-band, Christian Publishing House:

"The final conclusion here is simple, Westcott and Hort had some missteps spiritually as young men, they were not perfect as to their beliefs as young men, and they are under attack because they were the producers of the text that undermined the Textus Receptus that had been worshipped for centuries..." - EDWARD D. ANDREWS, CEO and President of Christian Publishing House.

Or, if you want more of this guy Andrews, check out one of dozens of his other diatribes such as this head bender:

"FOR AS I THINK IN MY HEART SO AM I: Combining Biblical Counseling with Cognitive Behavioral Therapy"

New version 'editors' Westcott and Hort called themselves heretics, as documented in their biographies - which is easy to document, but would detract (as per your petty intent) from the OP's gist. Rather, as a followup to Dylan569's comments on the "Orthodox Church," I merely documented W&H's own words that confirm their attack on orthodoxy.