So tired of all the ignorant bashing of Catholics

[KingJ]

What I don't get is how what you're saying has anything to do with showing that Romans 14 is good for supporting the idea that observance of the Sabbath is no longer required for Christians, which is what I thought KingJ was saying. Maybe I misunderstood him.

100% correct. For a Christian, the Sabbath is a Rom 14:5 type matter. For a Jew, it is not as simple.

 

[Bill]

We tend to overlook a lot of Catholic teaching that is sound and correct. We are indoctrinated against it as Protestants at large have an inherent dislike for them that stems from the 300 year-long reformation wars. Wars, which had little to nothing to do with actual theology.



With the Rosary and in fact all prayer to the saints, the context is very important. All these prayers are centred on Jesus.

I would not teach that we should pray this, but we are out of line if we overly condemn those who do.



The Catholic bible includes the Maccabees which has a few scriptures that strongly hint at such a place. Many passages in other books are used to infer it.

I am not going to go into detail and defend this as I don't believe in it. But I will just say that there is absolutely nothing wrong with a belief of God giving those en-route to eternal damnation an opportunity to be properly scrutinized. As Protestants we believe that God properly judges and evaluates us during our time on earth. But with this, many 'human' questions arise. Such as, what of those who die right after the age of accountability? What of those who fall into sin after years of service? Given the time, would they not have repented of their sins and accepted Jesus?

When one meditates on the fact that hell is eternal and irreversible, the concept of a Purgatory becomes logical.



I cringe when I hear people mock their expensive cathedrals and such. It shows a complete lack of understanding.

A - Priests take a vow of poverty and if they don't, they live a simple and modest life.
B - In a church, the most expensive item is a massive crucifix with Jesus on it. Properly placed in the front and centre of the church.
C - A church is beautified in honour of Jesus. Stained windows, paintings and statues of Jesus and all those who help bring glory to Him. Mary, disciples and profound saints.

Now contrast this to some charismatic churches where a sound system and disco lights take centre stage, and the 'priests' seem to take a vow of prosperity. Which is certainly not modest and scriptural.



I don’t see too much wrong with this. In the OT priests were advised to wear certain items. See Lev 16 and Exo 28.

The matter of concern for me is vanity and hypocrisy. IE A. Is the priest wearing these garments to appear holy at church when at home he is a devil? Or B. is the priest wearing these garments for vanity and a carnal power trip?

I would argue that A could go either way as with all Christians and B, highly unlikely. I am sure most priests would prefer to wear sneakers, shorts and a t-shirt instead of dress up in apparel the bible recommended they wear at meetings.



This topic could be a thread all on its own.

Do you believe God is sentimental? Does He want us to be sentimental with Him?

I believe the answer is a resounding yes! If we look at the Sabbath. God wanted all Jews to respect and honour a 'day' of the week. The 'day' of the week was meaningless until it became the day that God helped them escape 400 years of slavery. So now, a Saturday is no longer just a 'day' of the week.

As such, Jews do not worship the 'day'. It is maximum naivety and low intelligence to think that. They desire to honour God, and from this desire they respect and give meaning to a 'day' of the week.

In my own life, there is a parking spot at a gas station where God performed a miracle for me as I shared here Share your miracle. That spot, I now visit as often as I can and thank God for the miracle. Every time I drive to or park in the spot, I feel God's literal presence near me. It is like me knocking on the door to His house. It is like pushing a button on a television remote that switches on a ''talking directly to God'' station. It is literal idiocy and insanity to think I am worshiping a parking spot!

What happened to sick people who simply touched the shadow of Peter after Pentecost? What happened to people who had faith in Jesus and simply touched His clothing?

The shadow and clothing, on their own, have absolutely no meaning. But when we by faith attach meaning. Miracles can and do happen. God is very sentimental.

God ordained a graphic and violent death by stoning for all Jews who did not respect the Sabbath. Meditate on that fact if you think God is not sentimental.

One day when we get to heaven, I am sure the crowns we receive will have the date and time we were born again engraved on them. I am sure that my mansion will have the parking spot from the gas station.

Now, it is exactly the same with relics and saints who did things for the Lord. If we have faith in Jesus, it should give us butterflies.



Fake relics are a separate topic. On certain items mostly a non-issue. Take a crucifix as an example. I know it is not a relic but like a relic, it is symbolic to Jesus and Christianity. No matter if it is the wood of the real cross or simply two twigs found on the ground put together, if you have faith in Jesus, it has powerful symbolism.

Maybe a little example of understanding Purgatory , an extention or a part of Heaven. Because getting into heaven your soul must be perfect.

If you die in sins, no matter how small they are, you just can not be with God. There is no sin in heaven.

So let us say you have just been born again, and as a young Christian have animosity towards a neighbor. You're still learning to know what it means to be Christian. Yet this feeling you have towards your neighbor has been with you for years, it isn't so easily forgiven or let go of. Then you get an automobile accident and die. You still have a certain amount of sin that needs to be dealt with. You are a child of God but you can't go into heaven yet.
What Purgatory is is the purging of sin. It is the grace of God

In Scripture, Jesus talks to the Pharisees. And he says that the people of Sodom and Gomorrah will be judged less harshly than the people of this day.

Now we all know that Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed by God's fire, and the angels encountered the evil that was there. And we might all jump to the conclusion that those people have gone to hell. But yet Jesus has stated that they will be judged less harshly then those Pharisees of that day.

How can anyone be judged less harshly if you're going to hell. I mean honestly LOL. If a person is going to hell that's it boom you're done

 

[Bill]

the problem I had when I was a Catholic is I thought for some reason that God had to forgive me of my sin weather I stopped spinning or not. I lived a life as habitual sinner and thought because I I confessed to a Preist I was ok. They do not teach you must be born again, that Jesus will give us his power to brake the yoke of sin that strangles us, and keeps us from God.

My heart goes out to anyone who does not see deceit in the religion. Only by chasing after God , through reading his word, will this be revealed to a person IMO

I'm certain that there are some few that become perfect in the eyes of God when they receive Jesus and the Holy Spirit by becoming born again. But yet there are so many that still continue to sin even though they are born again.

 

[KingJ]

Maybe a little example of understanding Purgatory , an extention or a part of Heaven. Because getting into heaven your soul must be perfect.

If you die in sins, no matter how small they are, you just can not be with God. There is no sin in heaven.

So let us say you have just been born again, and as a young Christian have animosity towards a neighbor. You're still learning to know what it means to be Christian. Yet this feeling you have towards your neighbor has been with you for years, it isn't so easily forgiven or let go of. Then you get an automobile accident and die. You still have a certain amount of sin that needs to be dealt with. You are a child of God but you can't go into heaven yet.
What Purgatory is is the purging of sin. It is the grace of God

In Scripture, Jesus talks to the Pharisees. And he says that the people of Sodom and Gomorrah will be judged less harshly than the people of this day.

Now we all know that Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed by God's fire, and the angels encountered the evil that was there. And we might all jump to the conclusion that those people have gone to hell. But yet Jesus has stated that they will be judged less harshly then those Pharisees of that day.

How can anyone be judged less harshly if you're going to hell. I mean honestly LOL. If a person is going to hell that's it boom you're done

I agree with your thoughts. A belief in Purgatory is perfectly rational and certainly not something to attack Catholics for.

I personally do not believe in Purgatory. That is because I believe many, Protestants included, do not properly grasp what in fact a Christian is.

A Christian is a human that is made perfect to God by the blood of Jesus, when they show the necessary depth of desire for God. Also known as opening the door to Jesus Rev 3:20. This is achieved by either a true repentance of sin Psalm 51:17, martyrdom Rev 2:10, or from selfless servitude James 1:27. Being washed clean of sin is a gift from God to us. Once received it cannot and will not be taken back. God is not a human that makes the mistake of grafting a demon into heaven or casting a demon out Num 23:19. This is why I believe in OSAS - Once Saved Always Saved.

I better explain here What is a Christian and how do you become one?.

 

[MedicBravo]

If Catholics have nothing to hide then all that is currently, accurately translated MUST be accessible to the public.
I'm not talking into the Archives b/c DUH, common sense stupid people want to touch EVERYTHING.
A list of names of everyone who's worked on ANY relic, book, paper, etc. and serious punshment for falsifying anything.
Better yet, people read the Bible and put it online for others.
Why NOT have a daily devotional time where someone reads and teaches from it?
Bible verses about "how to make a rosary" and the verses that say we MUST have one.
Point out the fact that Indulgences are true or bad and those that made them "law" for a time were wrong.

I could go on, but many people's attention spans are shorter than they used to be.
The CC at large has made themselves look bad so any "bashing" is largely deserved.

We must pray for them. When Cathlics are shown WHY what they do is not backed by the Bible many leave the CC.

 

[Bill]

If Catholics have nothing to hide then all that is currently, accurately translated MUST be accessible to the public.
I'm not talking into the Archives b/c DUH, common sense stupid people want to touch EVERYTHING.
A list of names of everyone who's worked on ANY relic, book, paper, etc. and serious punshment for falsifying anything.
Better yet, people read the Bible and put it online for others.
Why NOT have a daily devotional time where someone reads and teaches from it?
Bible verses about "how to make a rosary" and the verses that say we MUST have one.
Point out the fact that Indulgences are true or bad and those that made them "law" for a time were wrong.

I could go on, but many people's attention spans are shorter than they used to be.
The CC at large has made themselves look bad so any "bashing" is largely deserved.

We must pray for them. When Cathlics are shown WHY what they do is not backed by the Bible many leave the CC.

But what are they doing that is not in scripture , more over , if everyone follows the scripture why are they not all recieving the blessed bread and blessed wine , the body and blood as Jesus says to do. Infact, Jesus Himself states, if you do not recieve the body and the blood then you will not go to heaven.

Maybe everyone is so against Catholics, you choose to give up your place in heaven. How foolish is that

 

[Bill]

I agree with your thoughts. A belief in Purgatory is perfectly rational and certainly not something to attack Catholics for.

I personally do not believe in Purgatory. That is because I believe many, Protestants included, do not properly grasp what in fact a Christian is.

A Christian is a human that is made perfect to God by the blood of Jesus, when they show the necessary depth of desire for God. Also known as opening the door to Jesus Rev 3:20. This is achieved by either a true repentance of sin Psalm 51:17, martyrdom Rev 2:10, or from selfless servitude James 1:27. Being washed clean of sin is a gift from God to us. Once received it cannot and will not be taken back. God is not a human that makes the mistake of grafting a demon into heaven or casting a demon out Num 23:19. This is why I believe in OSAS - Once Saved Always Saved.

I better explain here What is a Christian and how do you become one?.

That theory does not fit with scripture.

Just look at Judas iscariot. After returning from the towns the apostles were rejoicing and talking about all the things that they had done. Casting out demons and healing people. Jesus said to them Rejoice not in these things, rather Rejoice that your names are written in heaven.

Then later when Judas chose to betray Jesus, Jesus said about Judas it would have been better that he had never been born.

This is why we know that you can throw away your place in heaven, just like what happened with Isaac and Jacob

 

[Dave M]

That theory does not fit with scripture.

Just look at Judas iscariot. After returning from the towns the apostles were rejoicing and talking about all the things that they had done. Casting out demons and healing people. Jesus said to them Rejoice not in these things, rather Rejoice that your names are written in heaven.

Then later when Judas chose to betray Jesus, Jesus said about Judas it would have been better that he had never been born.

This is why we know that you can throw away your place in heaven, just like what happened with Isaac and Jacob

this would imply that Jesus did not know Judas was going to betray him, and yet we know that Jesus knew that Judas would betray him. In fact I would argue that Jesus chose him because he knew that Judas was going to betray him.

I do however agree we can most likely throw our gift of salvation away, the Bible talks about many times blotting out someones name

 

[KingJ]

That theory does not fit with scripture.

Just look at Judas iscariot. After returning from the towns the apostles were rejoicing and talking about all the things that they had done. Casting out demons and healing people. Jesus said to them Rejoice not in these things, rather Rejoice that your names are written in heaven.

Then later when Judas chose to betray Jesus, Jesus said about Judas it would have been better that he had never been born.

This is why we know that you can throw away your place in heaven, just like what happened with Isaac and Jacob

Judas was not a Christian.

All names are written in the book of life. We know this because in Matt 19:14 Jesus says ''heaven belongs to the children''. IE From birth everyone's name is in the book of life. Our names are removed / blotted out by rejecting Jesus and or hardening our hearts to repentance of sin.

As I said, most have absolutely no idea as to what exactly a Christian is. People need to meditate on 1. The fact that in Rev 2:10 it says that God will expect martyrdom of some and nothing but it, gets you a crown. 2. God is no respecter of persons Acts 10:34. 3. God does not change His mind Num 23:19. Understanding these three facts should make one re-visit their depth of intent to repent of their sins and hate what is evil Rom 12:9. As Paul says, 'do so in fear and trembling'' Phil 2:12.

If Judas was a Christian / passed God's judgement of his heart and mind Jer 17:9-12, the question to ask would be ''Would Judas have betrayed Jesus if he was brought back to life after dying as a martyr''?

Most believe they are Christians because they repeat magical phrases, think positive thoughts, believe they are chosen when they are only called, or muster up faith to believe a man who walked the earth 2000 years ago is God. To think God would waste His time grafting these people into heaven is madness.

I would be more shocked if Peter betrayed Jesus at that degree. He was chosen to receive a revelation of who Jesus was Matt 16:16-17. Exactly what happens to us when we become a Christian 1 Cor 12:3.

 

[B-A-C]

Judas was not a Christian. He was called, not chosen.

John 6:70; Jesus answered them, "Did I Myself not choose you, the twelve, and yet one of you is a devil?"

John 15:15; "No longer do I call you slaves, for the slave does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all things that I have heard from My Father I have made known to you.
John 15:16; "You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you.
John 15:19; "If you were of the world, the world would love its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, because of this the world hates you.

Luke 6:13; And when day came, He called His disciples to Him and chose twelve of them, whom He also named as apostles:

Not only was he a Christian, he was an apostle.

 

[KingJ]

John 6:70; Jesus answered them, "Did I Myself not choose you, the twelve, and yet one of you is a devil?"

John 15:15; "No longer do I call you slaves, for the slave does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all things that I have heard from My Father I have made known to you.
John 15:16; "You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you.
John 15:19; "If you were of the world, the world would love its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, because of this the world hates you.

Luke 6:13; And when day came, He called His disciples to Him and chose twelve of them, whom He also named as apostles:

I edited that out as I new someone would quote it and miss the point being made. Note how you have not dealt with entirety of the rest of the post.

He was chosen as a disciple, not for heaven. He did not pass judgement of heart and mind Jer 17:9-12. He was not given a revelation of who Jesus was as Peter Matt 16:16-17 and Christians 1 Cor 12:3.

But as with all other anti-OSAS believers, ignore these facts.

Not only was he a Christian, he was an apostle.

Please read the OP here What is a Christian and how do you become one?.

Judas is as far from Christian as Nero was.

 

[MedicBravo]

But what are they doing that is not in scripture , more over , if everyone follows the scripture why are they not all recieving the blessed bread and blessed wine , the body and blood as Jesus says to do. Infact, Jesus Himself states, if you do not recieve the body and the blood then you will not go to heaven.

Maybe everyone is so against Catholics, you choose to give up your place in heaven. How foolish is that

1. He never states the bread and wine are his flesh and blood, literally.
2. The priest and pope state they are REALLY taking Christ's body (bread) and breaking it and the drinking of wine is a recreation of Jesus on the Cross. That people are taking Jesus' body and blood into themselves.
Jesus died ONCE and on that cross. NO need to "recreate it".
3. The idea that the CC is the ONLY group to "get it right" and the rest of us are screwed is not Biblical.

 

[Rhema]

Better not eat lamb on the sabbath.

Isn't Passover a sabbath?

 

[Rhema]

For what reason are you quoting Colossians 2:16?

See i knew there was a reason i remembered the other verse as referring to the sabbath...

 

[Bill]

1. He never states the bread and wine are his flesh and blood, literally.
2. The priest and pope state they are REALLY taking Christ's body (bread) and breaking it and the drinking of wine is a recreation of Jesus on the Cross. That people are taking Jesus' body and blood into themselves.
Jesus died ONCE and on that cross. NO need to "recreate it".
3. The idea that the CC is the ONLY group to "get it right" and the rest of us are screwed is not Biblical.

Matthew 26: 26 through 29
"Take and eat, this is my body"
John 6:53 through 57
"Very truly I tell you unless you eat the Flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood you have no life within you"
Mark 14:22-24
"Take it, this is my body"
Luke 22: 19 through 20
"This is my body"
"This cup is the New Covenant in my blood which will be shed for you"

In all four Gospels Jesus is taking the bread and blessing it and giving it to his disciples. And then he takes the cup of wine and blesses the wine as well.

If these passages are not in your scripture, then your scripture is seriously flawed. Because all the Protestant churches have these very scriptures in their Bibles including the King James.

 

[Rhema]

In all four Gospels Jesus is taking the bread and blessing it and giving it to his disciples. And then he takes the cup of wine and blesses the wine as well.

Not in John Bill. That gospel has the foot washing thing, not the bread and wine.

But Yes, bread and wine as in the manner of Melchizedek.

But note, he said "this" !! What the wine and bread represent is an interesting study.

Luther could only move slightly from Transubstantiation into Consubstantiation.

Protestants then moved completely into "memorial" symbolism.

And giving thanks, broke and said: Take ye and eat: This is my body, which shall be delivered for you. This do for the commemoration of me. In like manner also the chalice, after he had supped, saying: This chalice is the new testament in my blood. This do ye, as often as you shall drink, for the commemoration of me.​

(1 Corinthians 11:24-25 DRB)

Rhema

 

[MedicBravo]

Matthew 26: 26 through 29
"Take and eat, this is my body"
John 6:53 through 57
"Very truly I tell you unless you eat the Flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood you have no life within you"
Mark 14:22-24
"Take it, this is my body"
Luke 22: 19 through 20
"This is my body"
"This cup is the New Covenant in my blood which will be shed for you"

In all four Gospels Jesus is taking the bread and blessing it and giving it to his disciples. And then he takes the cup of wine and blesses the wine as well.

If these passages are not in your scripture, then your scripture is seriously flawed. Because all the Protestant churches have these very scriptures in their Bibles including the King James.

1. He was NOT being literal. It's SO simple. Why didn't He convince them to tear Him apart and eat/drink right then?
26-29 Jesus institutes the Lord's Supper
"Jesus took bread, blessed and broke it" - Everything eaten at the Passover meal had symbolic meaning.
"Take, eat; this is My body… This is My blood of the new covenant" - Pretty sure no one was under Jesus' bleeding body drinking and licking it.
It is a misinterpretating the CC uses to keep "them" under control just like Lent.

You're last is pointless b/c you know very well which Bible we use and which parts are conveniently hidden by the CC.

There is only ONE Lord's Supper that has any cred atn that is with Jesus in His Father's kingdom.
What happens if you miss Mass? Do they dock you points? Back to square one with "purgatory"?
You're not going to convince me or any knowledgeable person.
Not one Catholic has shown any instruction on the many things they do.

 

[Rhema]

This is My blood of the new covenant"

Hallelujah and Amen, the Wine was the blood of Jesus' new covenant.

In great joy,
Rhema

 

[Bill]

I guess it will all come out in the wash won't it

 

[KingJ]

John 6:70; Jesus answered them, "Did I Myself not choose you, the twelve, and yet one of you is a devil?"

John 15:15; "No longer do I call you slaves, for the slave does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all things that I have heard from My Father I have made known to you.
John 15:16; "You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you.
John 15:19; "If you were of the world, the world would love its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, because of this the world hates you.

Luke 6:13; And when day came, He called His disciples to Him and chose twelve of them, whom He also named as apostles:

Not only was he a Christian, he was an apostle.

BAC, just further to what I said in post # 51.

Judas was chosen by Jesus to serve Him on earth, not reign with Him in heaven as Christians are. He was a lot like those who taste of Christianity. They are given power to cast out demons, but God does not know them Matt 7:22-23. They are hated because they wear a Christian T-Shirt. But this does not mean they are a Christian.

The main issue of contention between OSAS and non-OSAS Christians is that non-OSAS seem to think that everyone who wears a Christian t-shirt is a Christian. As though God is a fool that would judge and graft into His family someone that would betray him and not repent, as Judas did. That is truly borderline madness. God is most certainly not a fool.

I was motivated by this point to create this thread here: So tired of Christians not knowing what a Christian is!

Please take time to read and try grasp where I am coming from.