So tired of Christians not knowing what a Christian is!

[KingJ]

"There is absolutely NO such thing as an atheist who was once a true Christian."

This is what i based my statement on. "Your hypothesis is based on there is no free will."

Humans have free will to choose Jesus or not. Repent of their sins or not.

When they do this, God vets them and grafts them in if they pass. When someone is grafted in they are given a very real revelation of Jesus 1 Cor 12:3, Matt 16:16-17, such that denying His existence is on par with denying gravity. IE, No true atheist can have been a true Christian.

We have free will before we choose Jesus and we have free will in heaven and hell. We know this because there are levels of servitude and disobedience to God.

Now, please, show me where my argument does not support ''free will''.

 

[Bill]

Why I don't claim the title of Christian... I see most Christians produce worldly fruits also many like to argue bicker debate and demean others who don't see as they do..
The Lord said follow me n no matter how many times I've looked and seeked for a title He claimed I find not one time He claimed Himself as a Christian not speak the word Christian it was man that started that as far as I can come to understand I know the Lord said Mine is a nation of priest I know He said Ye are my witnesses I know He said to be followers of Him I know He tells His children to separate and to turn from evil n there's no except in His sentence..

Idk I just don't get why many are so much more proud of the name Christian instead of just following the ways of the Lord and learning to do good like He tells His children to do

One can not claim to them learning to do good while arguing demeaning bickering n what ever else that comes along with the Christian church being in Total separation and division for the Lord has told us a house divided will fall n to think His word will not be fulfilled ya r just fooling yourself n ya r full of pride or ya don't believe the Word

Better is a dry morsel, and quietness therewith, than an house full of sacrifices with strife.

In heaven , no one calls themselves Baptists, no one calls themselves Catholic, Methodists, or anything else.

They all call eachother " the children of God ".

 

[Bill]

Humans have free will to choose Jesus or not. Repent of their sins or not.

When they do this, God vets them and grafts them in if they pass. When someone is grafted in they are given a very real revelation of Jesus 1 Cor 12:3, Matt 16:16-17, such that denying His existence is on par with denying gravity. IE, No true atheist can have been a true Christian.

We have free will before we choose Jesus and we have free will in heaven and hell. We know this because there are levels of servitude and disobedience to God.

Now, please, show me where my argument does not support ''free will''.

If you have the free will to recieve Jesus , you also have the free will to reject Jesus after wards as well.

I have met a few "old Christians" who after years of being Christians with deep faith, have lost the faith though events and trials in thier lives.

I pray for them in thier bitterness

 

[Dave M]

In my opinion, yes. He wasn't guilty until he actually committed the sin, not before.

to me this is very interesting, I am not 100% sure I agree, maybe it depends???

for example, Jesus tells us just looking at a women in a lustful way is sin, that we don't have to actually do anything, just thinking about it is wrong!

Jesus also tells us hating our brother is just like murder, again this is just thinking about it, not doing it, it is wrong.

On the either hand we know being tempted and not following through is not sin, for it says Jesus was tempted in the desert and fought off the temptation with the word of God.

So maybe it depends on the type of sin and how much we actually think on it, and let its dwell in our thoughts. IF we get a wrong thought and run to Jesus maybe the thought is not ours, but if we get a wrong thought and dwell on it, and let take hold of us then that thought of sin becomes sin.

I do not really know for sure, but I know I fear sin and sin scares me because I know how easy it is to become hardened and blind to sin, so what happens in our minds when sinful thoughts occur really is the difference between if we sin or do not is probably what I lean towards on this subject.

 

[Dave M]

The fact is that you believe God cannot vet a persons heart! You believe God is a fool that would allow a person with a rotten heart into heaven. Judas had a very rotten heart. He was a mortal sinner. He would have pulled a Lucifer type stunt in heaven if he was ever placed there.

You better stop with this accusation type of language, Ray loves God and does not think God is a fool, why would you write such a hateful foolish thing to someone who loves God,, your pride is why, anyone who disagrees with you you do this type of thing, I am warning you it is a foolish thing.... I am probably guilty of it as well, but the way we treat others matters and this is not way to treat someone

 

[Bill]

to me this is very interesting, I am not 100% sure I agree, maybe it depends???

for example, Jesus tells us just looking at a women in a lustful way is sin, that we don't have to actually do anything, just thinking about it is wrong!

Jesus also tells us hating our brother is just like murder, again this is just thinking about it, not doing it, it is wrong.

On the either hand we know being tempted and not following through is not sin, for it says Jesus was tempted in the desert and fought off the temptation with the word of God.

So maybe it depends on the type of sin and how much we actually think on it, and let its dwell in our thoughts. IF we get a wrong thought and run to Jesus maybe the thought is not ours, but if we get a wrong thought and dwell on it, and let take hold of us then that thought of sin becomes sin.

I do not really know for sure, but I know I fear sin and sin scares me because I know how easy it is to become hardened and blind to sin, so what happens in our minds when sinful thoughts occur really is the difference between if we sin or do not is probably what I lean towards on this subject.

"IF we get a wrong thought and run to Jesus maybe the thought is not ours, but if we get a wrong thought and dwell on it, and let take hold of us then that thought of sin becomes sin."

Exactly!

Love you brother

 

[KingJ]

If you have the free will to recieve Jesus , you also have the free will to reject Jesus after wards as well.

If you understood what it takes to pass God's vetting of your heart and mind in order to become a Christian, you would not say this.

It is on par with saying a person who gave their life for you, will one day murder you. Imagine that.

A vast majority of people are simply not Christians.

I have met a few "old Christians" who after years of being Christians with deep faith, have lost the faith though events and trials in thier lives.

Thinking that one can lose their salvation after years of servitude when the thief next to Jesus went to paradise after no servitude is madness! It implies that God will pervert justice!

God does not pervert justice! This should be unthinkable Job 34:12 It is unthinkable that God would do wrong, that the Almighty would pervert justice.

The thief next to Jesus sunk to a depth of intent of repentance of sin that opened the door for Jesus to come in and save him Rev 3:20.

Your friend, is probably just in a bad space, to assume he will not make it to heaven simply because he is falling to trials I would say is a terrible assumption. If ever he displayed true love and commitment for Jesus, he will be in heaven.

I have a close family member that served Jesus his whole life and has now become an atheist. He had a terrible upbringing. Completely rejected and abandoned by his own family from the age of three! This person once preached to black people in a very white town. He got death threats and kept preaching. Even as an atheist, he helps everyone he can. Financially, love, time, work. His heart is humble and soft to Jesus. He just hates that God never helped him. He holds onto atheism as he is hurting. To think God is a fool that would send him to eternal hell, is literal insanity!!! He will be in heaven. No doubt! Christianity is more then sitting in a church seat and saying ''I belong to a Christian denomination''. As we see in James 1:27.

Now as I say to all non-OSAS believers. Your belief is so ridiculous that you need to lock yourself up in a room, maybe a bunker and try avoid all temptation from television and engaging with sinners, until Jesus comes or you die. Maybe eat a lot of sugar and hope you have a heart attack. If God ever uses you to preach Jesus to prostitutes, run for your life!!! Don't do it, let them go to hell. Let some other poor Christian sucker preach to sinners like that. Let them get tempted and fall into sin. Not you! Keep your butt safe! Look for the easy avenues to share Jesus!

The problem is that most non-OSAS don't meditate on how badly their belief misrepresents God. It is actually a rather sick and silly belief.

It certainly teaches that God is evil and perverts justice!!! Sending a thief to paradise after no servitude and your friend or my family member to eternal hell after 40 years of servitude. Imagine that. Not only do you believe that God is a fool that can't properly vet someone before He adopts them into His family Eph 1:5, but that He is also unjust. Terrible view of God some of you have!!!!

 

[KingJ]

You better stop with this accusation type of language, Ray loves God and does not think God is a fool, why would you write such a hateful foolish thing to someone who loves God,, your pride is why, anyone who disagrees with you you do this type of thing, I am warning you it is a foolish thing.... I am probably guilty of it as well, but the way we treat others matters and this is not way to treat someone

1. If you believe God would graft a Judas, who is able to betray Jesus, into heaven before he gets an opportunity to do so, you believe God is a fool who can't properly vet someone.

This is not a personal attack. It is simply a statement of fact.

2. If you believe God can send to eternal damnation a Christian who truly loves God and serves Him for 50 years but makes mistakes in the 51'st year. And then send a thief next to Him on the cross, that gives no servitude, only repentance, to eternal bliss, you believe God perverts justice.

This is not a personal attack. It is simply a statement of fact.

3. If you believe you can lose your salvation. You need to eat food that is more likely to give you a heart attack. The sooner you die the better your odds of going to heaven. Also, no preaching to sinners that may tempt you like prostitutes. In fact try avoid all such temptation, lock yourself up in your room for as long as you can, until Jesus comes. As you believe God is a fool that would pervert justice and send to eternal hell a Christian that falls into temptation when trying to do God's work.

This is not a personal attack. It is simply a statement of fact.

4. Accusing you guys of misrepresenting and incriminating God as you teach and support the above three items. When scripture is crystal clear that He can properly judge and vet a person in Jer 17:9-12 and that He does not pervert justice in Job 34:12.

This is not a personal attack. It is simply a statement of fact.

 

[Twistie]

This idea of mortal sins and venial sins is missing you up here. All sin leads to death.
Well OK, the Bible says "one" sin doesn't. All the other, 9,999 sins lead to death.

1Jn 5:17 All unrighteousness is sin, and there is a sin not leading to death.

Jas 2:9 But if you show partiality, you are committing sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors.
Jas 2:10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all.
Jas 2:11 For He who said, "DO NOT COMMIT ADULTERY," also said, "DO NOT COMMIT MURDER." Now if you do not commit adultery, but do commit murder, you have become a transgressor of the law.

Committing adultery is just as bad as murder. If you've broke one law ( any of the 616 in the OT ) you're just as guilty as if you broke all of them. If you show favoritism, or envy, or tell a lie, or commit fornication, you're just as guilty as if you broke any of the other laws.

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

All sin, any sin, leads to death. There are no little white lies, there are no fifty shades of grey sins. It's all sin.

Now, having said all that, if you're capable of committing 'ANY' sin, and you can still make it to heaven, it's only by the blood of Jesus
and the grace of God, and there is only one sin that the Bible says can't be forgiven. It isn't murder. In fact some of the people crying for Jesus to be crucified were likely saved later.

Acts 2:36 "Therefore let all the house of Israel know for certain that God has made Him both Lord and Christ—this Jesus whom you crucified."
Acts 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pierced to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Brethren, what shall we do?"
Acts 2:38 Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Even those who crucified Jesus can be forgiven and receive the Holy Spirit.

One more reason to "bash" Catholics, Protestant don't believe in mortal and venial sins.

If murder can never be forgiven, then David, Paul, Samson, Elijah, Gideon, Joshua, Barak, and a dozen others can never be saved.

All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death

Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

 

[Bill]

If you understood what it takes to pass God's vetting of your heart and mind in order to become a Christian, you would not say this.

It is on par with saying a person who gave their life for you, will one day murder you. Imagine that.

A vast majority of people are simply not Christians.



Thinking that one can lose their salvation after years of servitude when the thief next to Jesus went to paradise after no servitude is madness! It implies that God will pervert justice!

God does not pervert justice! This should be unthinkable Job 34:12 It is unthinkable that God would do wrong, that the Almighty would pervert justice.

The thief next to Jesus sunk to a depth of intent of repentance of sin that opened the door for Jesus to come in and save him Rev 3:20.

Your friend, is probably just in a bad space, to assume he will not make it to heaven simply because he is falling to trials I would say is a terrible assumption. If ever he displayed true love and commitment for Jesus, he will be in heaven.

I have a close family member that served Jesus his whole life and has now become an atheist. He had a terrible upbringing. Completely rejected and abandoned by his own family from the age of three! This person once preached to black people in a very white town. He got death threats and kept preaching. Even as an atheist, he helps everyone he can. Financially, love, time, work. His heart is humble and soft to Jesus. He just hates that God never helped him. He holds onto atheism as he is hurting. To think God is a fool that would send him to eternal hell, is literal insanity!!! He will be in heaven. No doubt! Christianity is more then sitting in a church seat and saying ''I belong to a Christian denomination''. As we see in James 1:27.

Now as I say to all non-OSAS believers. Your belief is so ridiculous that you need to lock yourself up in a room, maybe a bunker and try avoid all temptation from television and engaging with sinners, until Jesus comes or you die. Maybe eat a lot of sugar and hope you have a heart attack. If God ever uses you to preach Jesus to prostitutes, run for your life!!! Don't do it, let them go to hell. Let some other poor Christian sucker preach to sinners like that. Let them get tempted and fall into sin. Not you! Keep your butt safe! Look for the easy avenues to share Jesus!

The problem is that most non-OSAS don't meditate on how badly their belief misrepresents God. It is actually a rather sick and silly belief.

It certainly teaches that God is evil and perverts justice!!! Sending a thief to paradise after no servitude and your friend or my family member to eternal hell after 40 years of servitude. Imagine that. Not only do you believe that God is a fool that can't properly vet someone before He adopts them into His family Eph 1:5, but that He is also unjust. Terrible view of God some of you have!!!!

At least you're understanding of God is better than your understanding of me and that is good.

And although many will probably come down on you. It isn't the matter that the person has rejected God in his own mind, what is important is that he has not rejected God in his heart even though he doesn't understand God.

I also know someone who is an atheist or at least proclaims to be an atheist. But yet has compassion for inmates and always goes to the jails to show movies and to do good things for those in the jails. He also does counseling for those who are in jail. I know God loves him for this.

It is for people like these that Paul talks about the circumcision of the heart. That they may not know that they are Jews because they don't have the physical circumcision, but their heart is circumcised.

And what Paul is talking about is not the Jew as far as Israelites, what he's talking about is those who God loves

 

[KingJ]

At least you're understanding of God is better than your understanding of me and that is good.

And although many will probably come down on you. It isn't the matter that the person has rejected God in his own mind, what is important is that he has not rejected God in his heart even though he doesn't understand God.

I also know someone who is an atheist or at least proclaims to be an atheist. But yet has compassion for inmates and always goes to the jails to show movies and to do good things for those in the jails. He also does counseling for those who are in jail. I know God loves him for this.

It is for people like these that Paul talks about the circumcision of the heart. That they may not know that they are Jews because they don't have the physical circumcision, but their heart is circumcised.

And what Paul is talking about is not the Jew as far as Israelites, what he's talking about is those who God loves

I am not Catholic, but I believe only really Catholics can maintain a belief in God being good whilst holding to an anti - once saved always saved belief. Purgatory would be the place to come right. A Christian who lost their salvation would go to Purgatory and not be among those that go straight to hell.

Imagine seeing Jimmy Swaggart, who fell from grace and was seen with a prostitute, in hell for all eternity. Those that completely and utterly HATE Jesus from the bottom of their hearts, and Jimmy Swaggart in the same cell as them for all eternity. I would like to hear what @B-A-C and others think of that.

 

[Twistie]

I am not Catholic, but I believe only really Catholics can maintain a belief in God being good whilst holding to an anti - once saved always saved belief. Purgatory would be the place to come right. A Christian who lost their salvation would go to Purgatory and not be among those that go straight to hell.

Imagine seeing Jimmy Swaggart, who fell from grace and was seen with a prostitute, in hell for all eternity. Those that completely and utterly HATE Jesus from the bottom of their hearts, and Jimmy Swaggart in the same cell as them for all eternity. I would like to hear what @B-A-C and others think of that.

Actually they teach you to to purgatory for immortal sins not mortal or vice versa but claiming any title isn't the smart thing to do how I see it

But Jesus knew their thoughts, and said to them: “Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation, and every city or house divided against itself will not stand

 

[B-A-C]

Imagine seeing Jimmy Swaggart, who fell from grace and was seen with a prostitute, in hell for all eternity. Those that completely and utterly HATE Jesus from the bottom of their hearts, and Jimmy Swaggart in the same cell as them for all eternity. I would like to hear what @B-A-C and others think of that.

There are many who believe that Jimy Swaggart, like David and Samson, was restored. Jimmy Swaggart is ministering again.

Jimmy Swaggart Ministries

www.jsm.org

However, he was dismissed from the Assemblies of God.

Why the Assemblies Dismissed Swaggart - Christianity Today

TELEVANGELISMThe denomination decides two million members and integrity are more important than one man.As he stood sobbing on the platform in his rose-carpeted Family Worship Center, televangelist Jimmy Swaggart was most apologetic towards the Assemblies of God.“To its thousands and thousands...

www.christianitytoday.com

'What's Past Is Past' : A Defiant Swaggart Returns to the Pulpit

Jimmy Swaggart, defrocked but defiant, returned to the pulpit Sunday and sought to save his troubled ministry by unleashing the talent that once had made him and his operation the envy of television evangelism.

www.latimes.com

I am one who thinks Jimmy repented.

But to answer your question... cells in hell, now there is a new concept.

Luke 8:30 And Jesus asked him, "What is your name?" And he said, "Legion"; for many demons had entered him.
Luke 8:31 They were imploring Him not to command them to go away into the abyss.

The word abyss here is interesting.

ἄβυσσος
abussos; from 1 (as a neg. pref.) and βυσσός bussos = 1037; abyss, underworld:—
abyss(9).

The same word is in Rev 9:1, it's called a bottomless pit there. It's also used in Rev 9:11.

But you may be right, there may be different levels of hell.

[NASB]
Deut 32:22 For a fire is kindled in My anger, And burns to the lowest part of Sheol, And consumes the earth with its yield, And sets on fire the foundations of the mountains.

[KJV]
Deut 32:22 For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains.

Perhaps the fires in "the lowest hell" burn hotter than other levels, I don't know. But in the end, I'm not sure it matters.
I believe hell is a temporary place. Anyone who goes there, will not be there for eternity.

Rev 20:14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
Rev 20:15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Hell, and anyone who's name is not in the Book of Life, will be thrown into the Lake of Fire. That's where they will spend eternity.
So then, I suppose the question becomes, are there different levels in the Lake of Fire?

I don't see any evidence of this in the Bible, but I'm not really planning on finding out.

 

[KingJ]

Actually they teach you to to purgatory for immortal sins not mortal or vice versa but claiming any title isn't the smart thing to do how I see it

But Jesus knew their thoughts, and said to them: “Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation, and every city or house divided against itself will not stand

High level, you are correct. The thinking is that mortal sinners would bypass Purgatory and go straight to hell. But according to my memory, it is not always taught as a given. It is possible to go to Purgatory if you are guilty of a mortal sin.

 

[KingJ]

There are many who believe that Jimy Swaggart, like David and Samson, was restored. Jimmy Swaggart is ministering again.

Jimmy Swaggart Ministries

www.jsm.org

However, he was dismissed from the Assemblies of God.

Why the Assemblies Dismissed Swaggart - Christianity Today

TELEVANGELISMThe denomination decides two million members and integrity are more important than one man.As he stood sobbing on the platform in his rose-carpeted Family Worship Center, televangelist Jimmy Swaggart was most apologetic towards the Assemblies of God.“To its thousands and thousands...

www.christianitytoday.com

'What's Past Is Past' : A Defiant Swaggart Returns to the Pulpit

Jimmy Swaggart, defrocked but defiant, returned to the pulpit Sunday and sought to save his troubled ministry by unleashing the talent that once had made him and his operation the envy of television evangelism.

www.latimes.com

I am one who thinks Jimmy repented.

But to answer your question... cells in hell, now there is a new concept.

Luke 8:30 And Jesus asked him, "What is your name?" And he said, "Legion"; for many demons had entered him.
Luke 8:31 They were imploring Him not to command them to go away into the abyss.

The word abyss here is interesting.

ἄβυσσος
abussos; from 1 (as a neg. pref.) and βυσσός bussos = 1037; abyss, underworld:—
abyss(9).

The same word is in Rev 9:1, it's called a bottomless pit there. It's also used in Rev 9:11.

But you may be right, there may be different levels of hell.

[NASB]
Deut 32:22 For a fire is kindled in My anger, And burns to the lowest part of Sheol, And consumes the earth with its yield, And sets on fire the foundations of the mountains.

[KJV]
Deut 32:22 For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains.

Perhaps the fires in "the lowest hell" burn hotter than other levels, I don't know. But in the end, I'm not sure it matters.
I believe hell is a temporary place. Anyone who goes there, will not be there for eternity.

Rev 20:14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
Rev 20:15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Hell, and anyone who's name is not in the Book of Life, will be thrown into the Lake of Fire. That's where they will spend eternity.
So then, I suppose the question becomes, are there different levels in the Lake of Fire?

I don't see any evidence of this in the Bible, but I'm not really planning on finding out.

BAC, now you just need to concede to the fact that if Jimmy Swaggart had a heart attack when he was with the prostitute, he would still have gone to heaven if he died!!

I am a member of the assemblies of God church here in S Africa. They would put one under 'discipline' for a certain period of time. Elders in the church would properly cross examine him before ever allowed to preach from the pulpit again. This is a perfectly sound practice. I am sure there is more that took place with him and the elders of the church that we are not aware of.

 

[B-A-C]

But you may be right, there may be different levels of hell.

I wonder if some of this comes from a poem, from a very famous play of the middle ages?

Dante's 9 Circles of Hell: A Guide to the Structure of 'Inferno'

Here's a structural overview of the nine circles of hell in the first part of the Italian poet Dante Alighier's "Divine Comedy."

www.thoughtco.com

 

[KingJ]

I wonder if some of this comes from a poem, from a very famous play of the middle ages?

Dante's 9 Circles of Hell: A Guide to the Structure of 'Inferno'

Here's a structural overview of the nine circles of hell in the first part of the Italian poet Dante Alighier's "Divine Comedy."

www.thoughtco.com

I do certainly not agree with Dantes inferno. Every level is a different kind of torture!

God does not torture as explained here Discussion on Torture.

When I state levels in hell, I infer this from Rom 2:6 God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”.

I envision more prison type punishment and rewards. Example, mortal sinners will spend a lot of time with other mortal sinners like them. Time in solitary confinement and other similar type areas. Only allowed in general population for good behaviour and after a long period of time. Whilst venial sinners would not spend that much time in solitary. You would also not place a murderer in the same 'block' as those housing simply let's say shoplifters. I believe people will spend differing sessions in fire according to their sin. As opposed to person A - Torture of removing fingernails and person B - Torture of swimming in larva. God does not repay evil with evil. Dante's inferno is pure evil, every level. Completely unscriptural. Just as many peoples dreams and opinions are.

 

[Dave M]

I envision more prison type punishment and rewards.

that is always a issue when WE envision , no need for that God gave us his word. What happens is we create something in our minds that is not reality.

God does not repay evil with evil.

the word of God says the exact opposite, but ones mind has to accept what God says,,, not what one thinks,, are you able?? Or will you make something up in your mind and pretend it does not say what it says in the word of God??

2 Corinthians 5:10​

For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil.

 

[B-A-C]

God does not torture as explained here Discussion on Torture.

We seem to go back to the same discussions frequently

I don't believe God tortures. But He allows people to be tortured.
The Bible says God doesn't tempt anyone. But He allows Satan to tempt people.
He allowed Peter to be tested, He allowed Jesus to be tempted, and He allowed Job to be tested.
There is probably a fine line between being tortured and being in torment. But I'm not sure there is a big difference.

Rev 14:9 Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand,
Rev 14:10 he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.
Rev 14:11 "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."

It seems some people will be "tormented" forever. Satan and the false prophet also, eventually.

Rev 20:9 And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them.
Rev 20:10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Is God Himself tormenting them? I don't believe so, but is He allowing them to be tormented? Scripture speaks for itself.

Luke 16:24; "And he cried out and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.'

Some say this is a separation from God, but I do notice in Rev 14:10 this torment ( or torture if you prefer ) will be in the presence
of the Lamb. Jesus will be right there watching. No rest day or night from the torment. Forever and ever.

We can go with what we think is right or wrong, or we can go with scripture. Scripture speaks for itself.

Matt 13:42 and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Matt 13:50 and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

This "furnace of fire" doesn't sound like a very pleasant place to spend vacation.

 

[B-A-C]

I am a member of the assemblies of God church here in S Africa

I find that a little surprising.

Assemblies of God (USA) Official Web Site | Reformed Theology, A Response to…

ag.org

The Assemblies of God does not accept the doctrine of “Eternal Security” and in particular the “once saved, always saved” extension of that teaching. At the same time, “eternal insecurity” (any idea that one must be saved over and over again, or is always at risk of losing their salvation) does not accord with Scripture or with Assemblies of God belief. The believer’s salvation is secure in Christ but can be abandoned by willful choice. (See the Assemblies of God position paper on this topic.)

While the Remonstrants chose not to affirm or dismiss the possibility of ultimately forsaking God, most current Wesleyan or Arminian thinkers agree that just as God does not force persons into relationship with himself, so also He does not force those who change their mind to stay in that relationship.

https://enrichmentjournal.ag.org/Issues/2012/Summer-2012/Is-Hell-Forever

You seem at odds with many of their doctrines.

https://ag.org/Beliefs/Position-Papers/Final-Judgment

The Assemblies of God rejects both the doctrines of ultimate reconciliation and annihilationism