Speaking in Tongues: A Sign for Nonbelievers

[gdemoss]

When we die our imperfection leaves and before God ( face to face) we are glorified and become perfect.

This took me a little while to get my mind wrapped around it. I had never heard of this view till now. What you have said here is truth. It just can't apply to the verse in question.

Two different Greek words for perfect

τέλειος - carries more of a definition of maturity as perfect

τελειόω - carries more of a definition of completeness as perfect

All of the verses in scripture that speak of this type of becoming perfect before God use the latter word. All of the verses that speak of our walk in Christ in this life being perfected use the first word. So to say that this 'when that which is perfect is come' is our death and subsequent glorification before God goes against the use of the words in scripture.

Paul claimed to be τέλειος (mature in Christ) but said that he was not yet τελειόω (made perfect by God).

For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face:

I understand why one would look at this and think that now we have prophecy, knowledge and tongues but that will be nothing compared to standing before God where all doubt will be removed. But seeing through a glass, darkly does not refer to prophecy, knowledge and tongues. Seeing through a glass (mirror) refers to scripture and in this case the Old Testament. See also 2 Cor 3:18 , Jam 1:23.

Beholding through a glass darkly - The Old Testament - Veiled
Seeing face to face - The New Testament - Unveiled

The whole point of 1 Cor 13 is to show them how much greater benevolent love is than any gift of the Holy Spirit as the gifts of the Holy Spirit were nothing without it.

I still believe that the best given definition for that which is perfect is the completed New Testament scriptures. Gods completed Word rendered prophecy, tongues and a word of knowledge as unnecessary partial revelations to be discontinued.

Thanks for the exercise in bible study and for solidifying my understanding of the text.

Gary

 

[jiggyfly]

Good Evening:

To speak to God is fine, but as one reads the entire chapter, it says that basically God is not confusion, disorganization and or disorder. That tongues are a sign to the unbeliever, but if witnessed can also cause them to run away......
So it says to keep silent with that, unless there is someone present that can understand and comprehend and convey this to the one or ones wondering what has been said.

Having said this, I myself trust no man on earth, no further than I can throw them, so why would I believe anything that I cannot understand in my own given language? They can and have and will say almost anything to suit themselves.

You see I myself can and do at times speak in tongues in prayer or in question, but I have no real idea of what I have said, not a clue, so what sense does it make??

My first experience with this was in a Pentecostal Church in Liberty, Missouri. As a matter of fact myself and my wife were baptized in that church. And along the way, they showed me how extreme they could be, and tried to use that tongues and interpretation of tongues to say I had married a woman not of my race, and religion and she was the devil for sure. If I was to ever be saved I needed to get out of this marriage. All nonsense, but hey at the time I did not know, I was just scared. Divorce is also against God, but extreme religion is of Satan. Of this I am sure of.

Well I saw the light on that stuff and we have been married now for 32 years. Sometimes they were right, she is a devil. Lol!! That same chapter says for all women to remain silent and not speak in church , she is definitely not silent Kit when you gonna finish the sunroom" Can you tile the floor for your oldest son?? I dunno I cannot hear you.....Lol!

I know the message of the gifts of the spirit remain. What is to be perfect has not come yet. That will be when Jesus comes. And that we have faith, hope and love. When Jesus does come hope will die as we will be where we need to be and no more need for hope, as will faith be gone as we will see God, faith will no longer be needed, but love will remain.

In summary, this is a situation very much abused and misused today. If I or anyone cannot understand what is said, and with the knowledge that others will mislead you on purpose or for their own agenda, then to me public speaking in tongues is useless and to be mistrusted. If I cannot understand what someone says, it is to me totally useless. And I for sure will never trust some other human to interpret anything as fact. I learned that lesson long ago, they had me scared and seeing demons behind every bush.

I have since grown and like I said, can and do sometimes speak in tongues while in prayer or thought, normally just to myself or by myself.

But as I advised a young man on here a week or so ago, beware of the situation, a new person will become scared and may never accept God at all. It may open the door for total rejection. So I keep my rabies vaccine all ready to go....never mind me I love to be silly sometimes. It makes the world go by......

For example if a person gets mad in the church parking lot over a fender bender, this is not a Demon, it is us, our own spirit and for a brief time before the spirit of God calms us....we can be angry. So to get that person and convict them they have a Demon of Anger in them, and cast it our and speak in tongues and scare them to death....they may never be back . Lol~

Some of it is real. Most of it is not. It is highly abused and mis used.
So I hold to speak with your spirit and remain silent in church. If what I have to say no one can understand, what use it is at all? All it does is create disorder and confusion. And what can that accomplish?

My personal experience with this leads me to believe that much of this is self induced. It may even be demonic , and my experience in that particular church certainly was. It has always been my interpretation of speaking in tongues was to mean to speak in a strange language but to speak clearly and in an understandable way. But I will in the next couple days study this really hard and ask God for guidance. I have up to this point mostly dismissed it all as false and with no purpose for anyone if you cannot understand it. And since my experience with it , greatly mistrust it all. Even my own occasional babbling makes no sense to me, how can I speak to God if I know not what I say?? So if something is unintelglient to me, or anyone who hears, what purpose can it serve and what would its meaning be?....Now if you are German or Italian and I know your language that I did not know and I can speak to you clearly this has always been my idea of this. .....so will have to study this one carefully.

Oh I do not understand part of your message. but nisamehe is I do not understand. And if I do not understand, it means nothing to me. Not said in disrespect......simply is useless.



Kit

Your ignorance of what is said, does not discredit what was said.

But people who aren't spiritual [fn] can't receive these truths from God's Spirit. It all sounds foolish to them and they can't understand it, for only those who are spiritual can understand what the Spirit means. 1Cor. 2:14

 

[jiggyfly]

This took me a little while to get my mind wrapped around it. I had never heard of this view till now. What you have said here is truth. It just can't apply to the verse in question.

Two different Greek words for perfect

τέλειος - carries more of a definition of maturity as perfect

τελειόω - carries more of a definition of completeness as perfect

All of the verses in scripture that speak of this type of becoming perfect before God use the latter word. All of the verses that speak of our walk in Christ in this life being perfected use the first word. So to say that this 'when that which is perfect is come' is our death and subsequent glorification before God goes against the use of the words in scripture.

Paul claimed to be τέλειος (mature in Christ) but said that he was not yet τελειόω (made perfect by God).

For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face:

I understand why one would look at this and think that now we have prophecy, knowledge and tongues but that will be nothing compared to standing before God where all doubt will be removed. But seeing through a glass, darkly does not refer to prophecy, knowledge and tongues. Seeing through a glass (mirror) refers to scripture and in this case the Old Testament. See also 2 Cor 3:18 , Jam 1:23.

Beholding through a glass darkly - The Old Testament - Veiled
Seeing face to face - The New Testament - Unveiled

The whole point of 1 Cor 13 is to show them how much greater benevolent love is than any gift of the Holy Spirit as the gifts of the Holy Spirit were nothing without it.

I still believe that the best given definition for that which is perfect is the completed New Testament scriptures. Gods completed Word rendered prophecy, tongues and a word of knowledge as unnecessary partial revelations to be discontinued.

Thanks for the exercise in bible study and for solidifying my understanding of the text.

Gary

How does your definition of "that which is perfect" being the scriptures fit with either of your Greek definitions? Can you connect them for us please?

 

[Kit Carson]

Your ignorance of what is said, does not discredit what was said.

But people who aren't spiritual [fn] can't receive these truths from God's Spirit. It all sounds foolish to them and they can't understand it, for only those who are spiritual can understand what the Spirit means. 1Cor. 2:14

Good Morning:

No Sir, I think I have a very good understanding, but always willing to listen and learn. I prayed last night for understanding, and read the scriptures again this morning and taking that, and my experience in life in the pentecostal church, and the wisdom that God seems to have given me the answer for me is for me, may not suit all.....but it is as so.

I believe that when I or you or anyone speaks in the spirit it is for us and us alone and is a way of speaking with and to God. It is for us. It fully exists and how anyone can say the writing of scriptures and their completion means that the gifts of the holy spirit have ceased is beyond my understanding, as nothing says this to me. What I understand is the spirit speaks for us, and with us and although we may have no understanding of it, it in some way does educate us or make us more open to God and is a way for our spirit to relate to God. That is basically how I understand it.

I also understand the restrictions on it and see that in our modern world there are no restrictions and it runs hand in hand with deception and my statement that if you want to find Satan, you can easily find him in many churches. The deceiver is there, takes all that is and turns it to his use. Even before the known history of Christ pagan gibberish has been used and is well known , and is for sure self induced.

So is Paul just prejudiced against women, is this just a way of the times, a tradition? A carry over from the old way and the old teachings, has he let his own opinion enter into things, I have to realize no that God has his word in his way and in the bible for his reason, and although some words may have been changed and moved around with time the basic message since time began is woman is the Glory of Man, and is subordinate to Man As Man is to God. So Paul says women are to remain silent, and women are not to speak in tongues in the church. This is very clear and in this chapter that speaks of the gifts of the spirit and of tongues.

Also Paul tells all that if tongues cannot be understood and or interpreted to just plainly keep your mouth shut. That anything not understood only serves to confuse and create disorder. So it has no purpose other than to be the work of Satan and for the pride and self serving practices that I have seen up close and personal in a church.

So I walk into a charismatic church and I realize that tongues can and is real....but is also the tool in public for Satan.

Oh how I remember on particular message said by one and interpreted by another and how known information was used to try to pull the wool over my eyes, you see God says test them, always. So I do. My wife is from India, and this long winded message given to us was how she had traveled from a far land to come to us and to teach them......the members of the church. Well at this time she could not teach them anything, as she had not even accepted Christ as of yet......and you see, we still to this day do not know if this message was true, as neither of us could understand what was said and had to rely on the interpretation of another member and how can we be sure what they said was true as we could not know.

So I see a lot of abuse of it. I see it used in ways that do not educate anyone, and when I walk into a charismatic church , I see men, women, and small children speaking in self induced so called tongues that have no meaning, to me or to anyone who hears. All that I see completely and in total context is against the things Paul said should be. Therefore I consider almost all of it false.

I do not say it is all false, as I sometimes do also speak in this way but by myself and during times I do feel the spirit of God but as Paul says, I have no understanding of what the spirit is saying on my behalf .

So I understand the truth of it, and I see it also very much abused and those of pride telling others that unless you do speak in tongues that you are not saved, and you are not spiritual and many other false teachings. This is a way of trying to use fear to control others and tell them if you do not do this you are not spiritual, to place unwarranted fears on others. So yes I understand fully.

In summary I believe in God, God will never let me go as I have wandered this way and that way and he says, you are not going nowhere, each time I go a wrong way he brings me back, and I do live in this world and I do see all things and I am like how Solomon says to be.......be as wise and cunning as the snake, but gentle as the lamb. So I do not trust all. I test it all. And I find much to be false. From the self pride of many, to false teachings, to ten opinions about one thing, confusion, disorder, Satan standing at the pulpit, casting out of false demons and allowing a real one in, and many other things. So yes you and I can speak in tongues at times, but this is for us , we do not know what the spirit says, and can not really trust another with any interpretation, unless we may know this person well, and know their heart, then if two or more interpret the same, I will believe it.

This is my answer and my understanding, of it all, what God tells me, and what life has shown me by experience. This morning I read this and that written by men and got opinions from the completion of the new testament to whatever to mean the gifts of the spirit have ceased, to this or that meaning, and I realize it is all man, and his own wish to control, and in some way be God, and not except God.
I just try to accept what God puts in my heart and kindly without condemnation laugh at what I call the antics of the monkeys.

Respectfully......May God be with you today

Kit

 

[gdemoss]

How does your definition of "that which is perfect" being the scriptures fit with either of your Greek definitions? Can you connect them for us please?

Great question! I would be happy to share my understanding with you and have it examined.

The first word 'perfect' means complete in a mature fashion. In my interpretation we are talking about the replacement of that which is incomplete (tongues, prophecy, word of knowledge) with that which is complete (the completed scriptures). As Paul stated there was his understanding when he was a child that was replaced by his understanding as an adult. As an adult he had better information, more complete. The bible is definitely the all sufficient word of God. I have no need or use for those things which only partially supplied the believer with information. I can answer every question using the scriptures alone.

May the word of God be exalted,

Gary

 

[RJ]

This took me a little while to get my mind wrapped around it. I had never heard of this view till now. What you have said here is truth. It just can't apply to the verse in question.

Two different Greek words for perfect

τέλειος - carries more of a definition of maturity as perfect

τελειόω - carries more of a definition of completeness as perfect

All of the verses in scripture that speak of this type of becoming perfect before God use the latter word. All of the verses that speak of our walk in Christ in this life being perfected use the first word. So to say that this 'when that which is perfect is come' is our death and subsequent glorification before God goes against the use of the words in scripture.

Paul claimed to be τέλειος (mature in Christ) but said that he was not yet τελειόω (made perfect by God).

For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face:

I understand why one would look at this and think that now we have prophecy, knowledge and tongues but that will be nothing compared to standing before God where all doubt will be removed. But seeing through a glass, darkly does not refer to prophecy, knowledge and tongues. Seeing through a glass (mirror) refers to scripture and in this case the Old Testament. See also 2 Cor 3:18 , Jam 1:23.

Beholding through a glass darkly - The Old Testament - Veiled
Seeing face to face - The New Testament - Unveiled

The whole point of 1 Cor 13 is to show them how much greater benevolent love is than any gift of the Holy Spirit as the gifts of the Holy Spirit were nothing without it.

I still believe that the best given definition for that which is perfect is the completed New Testament scriptures. Gods completed Word rendered prophecy, tongues and a word of knowledge as unnecessary partial revelations to be discontinued.

Thanks for the exercise in bible study and for solidifying my understanding of the text.

Gary

The whole point of 1 Cor 13 is to show them how much greater benevolent love is than any gift of the Holy Spirit as the gifts of the Holy Spirit were nothing without it.

No, I beleive the whole point of 1 Cor 13, is this love is agape or God's love. Paul has already told us that the one word love replaces all of the commandments and, here, he is essentially saying that we can't do this type of love perfectly any more that we could do the commandments.
That we only know and are capable in part. But, there will come a time when we Christians die in the flesh, we will be raised incorruptable, see God face to face and be made perfect.

At this time, tongues will cease, phrophecy will cease, there will be no more laws. Perfection will come, we will know God as fully as he knows us and eternity will be at hand.

I am sure you have another explanation.

 

[jiggyfly]

Great question! I would be happy to share my understanding with you and have it examined.

The first word 'perfect' means complete in a mature fashion. In my interpretation we are talking about the replacement of that which is incomplete (tongues, prophecy, word of knowledge) with that which is complete (the completed scriptures). As Paul stated there was his understanding when he was a child that was replaced by his understanding as an adult. As an adult he had better information, more complete. The bible is definitely the all sufficient word of God. I have no need or use for those things which only partially supplied the believer with information. I can answer every question using the scriptures alone.

May the word of God be exalted,

Gary

Which bible? Some contain more scripture than others. When do you think the scriptures completed?

 

[gdemoss]

I am sure you have another explanation.

Yes, you and I are not led by the same spirit. Either one of us is being led by an evil spirit or both of us are. Either one or both of us are currently condemned to the lake of fire as heretic(s).

Like I said before, I cannot see any truth in what you teach. I trust the spirit that is guiding me. That said, I also trusted my beliefs before when I believed there was no God. I was wrong then.

This brings me to an honest place of leaving off discussion with you. Whether I am right or not, which of course I hope I am as my eternal destination relies on it, I must obey God. According to what the spirit has taught me of the Holy Scriptures you are a heretic. I have tried to teach you what he has taught me and you openly reject it. In obedience to God I cannot continue to dialog with you.

In the event that I am blind, cannot see the truth and God condemns me to the lake of fire, he is still a righteous and holy God. As for who I have been I deserve eternal death. I give him my life.

 

[gdemoss]

Which bible? Some contain more scripture than others. When do you think the scriptures completed?

Which bible? The original. Yes I understand there are multiple manuscripts that differ in various ways but there was only one original. How do we know beyond a shadow of a doubt which one it is? Good question.

The scriptures were completed sometime before the last author died.

 

[jiggyfly]

Which bible? The original. Yes I understand there are multiple manuscripts that differ in various ways but there was only one original. How do we know beyond a shadow of a doubt which one it is? Good question.

The scriptures were completed sometime before the last author died.

Seems to me your referencing the "completed scriptures" and the bible to be the same entity, is that correct?


What is your definition and criteria of scripture.

 

[gdemoss]

Seems to me your referencing the "completed scriptures" and the bible to be the same entity, is that correct?


What is your definition and criteria of scripture.

correct. Bible and completed scriptures same.

definition? criteria? I am simple in this regard. I have been being led by a spirit out of a life of darkness to believing in God and his Christ. Along the way this spirit has used many things to shape my course. He introduced me to the KJV and taught me from it. As my education continued he showed me the need to understand the underlying Greek text for the KJV, that the translation wasn't perfect. He has since broadened by view by introducing many different manuscripts and translations. The point that I am in in my journey with him is reviewing the different manuscripts versus the English versions translated by them. I cannot say that I have any absolute authority to declare which is correct. What I do know is that there is a lot that they all absolutely agree on.

There is much written in regard to what man says the history of the bible is. I do not know if what they say is true. What I do know is that God promised to preserve his word. It is him I trust to lead me to what I need to serve him properly.

 

[Giggles4God]

I think this is a bit off topic.

 

[gdemoss]

I think this is a bit off topic.

true, not exactly on topic but related to how I came to the conclusion I did about the topic. It shouldn't stray any further.

 

[ozell]

]They were filled with the Holy Ghost and began to speak with other tongues.


Here is the key, "the spirit gave them utterance".

Remember the angels are the spirits that arrived in the house in the form of fiery tongues.

So, it was the angels that gave them the act of speaking. Note this in the above verse, "They were all filled with the Holy Ghost."


Does this mean something entered their bodies? No!

Here is an example of a spirit (or angel) giving an individual utterance.

 

[ozell]

And when they had prayed, the place was shaken where they were assembled together; and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they spake the word of God with boldness. (Acts 4: 31)

Note what the verse states, "they were all filled with the Holy Ghost."

Once they were filled with the Holy Ghost, what did they do?

They spake the word of God with boldness! Therefore in the case of Acts 2:4, the "Holy


Ghost is the Word of God. Let’s return to Acts chapter 2, pick up where we left off.

 

[ozell]

And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven. Now when this was noised abroad, the multitudes came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language. (Acts 2: 5-6)

Note what the verses states, "Every man heard them speak in his own language."

Here is more note worthy information in the above verses.


There were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.

In other words, there were "Jews" only in this assembly from every nation under heaven.

Now, read the next two verses carefully and see the tongue or language that was spoken was understood perfectly.

 

[jiggyfly]

correct. Bible and completed scriptures same.

definition? criteria? I am simple in this regard. I have been being led by a spirit out of a life of darkness to believing in God and his Christ. Along the way this spirit has used many things to shape my course. He introduced me to the KJV and taught me from it. As my education continued he showed me the need to understand the underlying Greek text for the KJV, that the translation wasn't perfect. He has since broadened by view by introducing many different manuscripts and translations. The point that I am in in my journey with him is reviewing the different manuscripts versus the English versions translated by them. I cannot say that I have any absolute authority to declare which is correct. What I do know is that there is a lot that they all absolutely agree on.

There is much written in regard to what man says the history of the bible is. I do not know if what they say is true. What I do know is that God promised to preserve his word. It is him I trust to lead me to what I need to serve him properly.

The bible is a varying compilation of a variety of scripture texts, even KJV has been revised many times so IMO it is impossible to refer to it as being complete.

Paul said something at the end of chapter 14.

Or do you think God's word originated with you Corinthians? Are you the only ones to whom it was given? If you claim to be a prophet or think you are spiritual, you should recognize that what I am saying is a command from the Lord himself. But if you do not recognize this, you yourself will not be recognized.
So, my dear brothers and sisters, be eager to prophesy, and don't forbid speaking in tongues. But be sure that everything is done properly and in order.


Concerning the OP or topic, speaking in tongues is a sign for unbelievers but more importantly it is also a spiritual gift to the body of Christ.

 

[ozell]

And they were all amazed and marveled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galileans? And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born? (Acts 2: 7-8)

How did every man hear them (Apostles/Galileans) speak in his own language (or tongue)?

Suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.

And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.


And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance, and they spake the word of God with boldness.

Therefore the angles were the interrupters for the whole assembly. [/


That’s why a cloven tongue sat by each one of them. So, Peter stood up as the spirit gave him utterance and quoted the Word of God to the Israelites that were present.

Peter quoted the Prophet Joel, take note!

 

[ozell]

And they were all amazed, and were in doubt, saying one to another, What meaneth this? Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine. But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words: For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day. But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come: And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved. (Acts 2: 12-21)

 

[ozell]

Let’s see what Peter quoted.

And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions: And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit. And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke. The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the Lord come. And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the Lord hath said, and in the remnant whom the Lord shall call. (Joel 2: 28-32)