Temporal Justification

[norapture]

Ranger in post # 11 you said this.

And the biggest problem with
making this an eternal context is that if Abraham was justified on an eternal basis for what he did (offering up Isaac), then we must equally conclude that one can be justified if they give clothing to the cold and food to the hungry. Both absurd, as I am sure you would agree.




Absurd?

Matthew 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his righthand, come ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom, prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
35 For I was an hungered, and you gave me meat, I was thirsty, and you gave me drink, I was a stranger , and you took me in
36 Naked , and ye clothed me , I was sick , and ye visited me, i was in prison , and ye came unto me.
37 Then shall the righteous answer him saying , Lord when saw we thee an hungered, and fed thee, or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked , and clothed thee?
39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you , Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

Absurd? No I do not agree

James 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works?
can faith SAVE him?

James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

 

[Sue D.]

But those works do not save us -- they Are signs that we Are believers because we will Want to do those things.

 

[S.T.Ranger]

The Old Testament people looked Towards a future Savior

I would disagree with on a number of counts, first one being the Gospel was a Mystery (which is truth which has not been revealed to men). I will give a couple of verses that show this to be the case and makes it impossible to say that men were "looking forward to Jesus Christ:"

Romans 16:25-26 King James Version (KJV)

25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:


Ephesians 3:3-5 King James Version (KJV)

3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,

4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;


Secondly, we have Paul teaching us that faith in Christ was not available during the Age of Law (which makes it unavaialablein the Ages prior to it, this also verified by Ephesians 3:5 as well):


Galatians 3:23-27 King James Version (KJV)

23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

We also see the same thing taught in John 1:11-13, that men did not become sons of God prior to faith in Christ (which is specific to faith in His death and Resurrection) in vv.26-27.


Third, we can read the Old Testament and see that while the Gospel is found there by those of us who have had the Gospel revealed to us, not only was understanding not given to men...there is no way to equate what they were actually told with the full understanding of the Gospel as it has been revealed to us (the Death, Burial, and Resurrection of Jesus Christ Who is God manifest in the flesh for the express purpose of dying in our stead to take upon Himself the penalty for our sin, as well as rise again that we might have eternal life and not perish). An example of that is the Gospel as heard by Abraham (our key Bible character in this discussion of Temporal Justification:


Genesis 12:1-3 King James Version (KJV)

12 Now the Lord had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:

2 And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:

3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.


This is the Gospel, you and I can understand why, but for Abraham it was a matter of receiving a son and the world being blessed through his offspring. But the Scripture, not Abraham...looks forward to Christ:


Galatians 3:6-8 King James Version (KJV)

6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.

7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.


I will leave it at those three points for you-or anyone else-to address, but I will also go back to the point I repeated in the last post and ask you again to address it:


Luke 1:5-6 King James Version (KJV)

5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.

6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.


This states without controversy that Zacharias and Elisabeth were declared righteous, and this is before God. They were keeping the Law, walking in all of the commandments and ordinances...blameless. This is a clear statement that states they were justified due to their obedience to the Law. This corresponds to Paul's statement that "...the doers of the Law shall be justified:"


Romans 2:13-15 King James Version (KJV)

13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another)


Now we contrast Luke 1:5-6 with another statement in Scripture found just a few verses after this statement (which demands we examine the text for correlation):


Romans 3:10-11 King James Version (KJV)

10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.


And here is the question: do we nullify the fact that Zacharias and Elisabeth were justified based on their obedience to the Law, as well as Paul's statement that the doers of the Law shall be justified...in an attempt to maintain a tired and erroneous view that has existed for centuries?

Please address these two points:

1. No man was "looking forward to Jesus Christ" with an understanding that He would die for their sin and bestow Eternal Life;

2. Men and women were justified based on their obedience to God's will as revealed to men, but...that does not equate to Eternal Justification which is a result of Eternal Redemption.


Keep in mind that Abraham did not "seek after God and he was not righteous in an eternal standing based on the Work of Christ (Romans 3:10-11)." God went to Him, made promises that Hebrews 11:13 and Hebrews 11:39-40 say he died not receiving, Abraham believed, and just as Zacharias and Elisabeth were declared righteous, even so, was Abraham. But he died still in need of the Atonement and Reconciliation.

Continued...

 

[S.T.Ranger]

they were making yearly animal sacrifices to take care of their sins.

And that is one of the biggest indicators that they had not received the Atonement...they had to continue in vicarious animal death until Christ's vicarious death was applied.

Those sacrifices were temporal and temporary and must be viewed in that context because they did not contribute to Eternal Redemption at all. They could not take away sins, only the Sacrifice of Christ can do that and make it unnecessary for animal sacrifice to continue:


Hebrews 10:1-4 King James Version (KJV)

1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.

3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.

4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.


Hebrews 10:10 and 14-18 King James Version (KJV)

10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.


14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,

16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.


The Writer contrasts the inability of those sacrifices (and in Hebrews 12:22-24 includes sacrifice all the way back to Abel) to take away sins, and then points out that the Sacrifice of Christ sanctifies us (sets apart, makes holy) once and for all...and makes us perfect (complete, see v.4) forever.

"Perfection" means a bringing to an end, completion of a goal. The goal of animal sacrifice was to make atonement and to bring about remission of sins. The Sacrifice of Christ makes us complete in regard to that goal, that is, Atonement and Remission of sins...forever.

You say in a following post...

Realized that I hadn't finished my thought about the yearly animal sacrifices -- Jesus Chris became the Final Perfect Lamb of God. So all those many years of yearly sacrifices were done in obedience to God.

I would suggest He was the only Lamb, and that the sacrifices that went before His death were meant only to foreshadow His Work on the Cross. And I agree, they were done in obedience, but the primary point I would ask you to consider is that just as remission of sins and atonement were temporal and applied only in that context, even so we have a temporal application to the justification of the Old Testament Saints.

And we must not equate the figures/types/shadows/parables with the realities. We know that the offering of animals didn't bring remission of sins and atonement equal to that bought by Christ in Eternal Redemp[tion, so why would we equate justification for people clearly awaiting Eternal Redemption?


Continued...

 

[S.T.Ranger]

Because they Did have the prophets to tell them / warn them and their need to repent. King David did that. His sins and his repentence.

And this is contrasted with God granting repentance by grace:


Acts 11:13-18 King James Version (KJV)

13 And he shewed us how he had seen an angel in his house, which stood and said unto him, Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon, whose surname is Peter;

14 Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.

15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.

16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.

17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?

18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.


If you read about Cornelius and his conversion in Acts 11, you will see that this was a man of faith, said to be Just (righteous), yet still in need of being saved (v.14), and still in need of being Baptized with the Holy Ghost (immersed into Christ through receiving Christ (John 14:16-18). But what some might miss is that it is not just this Old Testament Saint that has been saved...the Apostles are also said to have been saved in the same manner. We can pinpoint when because Peter quotes the Lord's statement in Acts 1:4-5, which means...they were not yet saved, not yet baptized into Christ, and therefore still awaiting Eternal Redemption in Acts 1.

This is repentance that is granted through salvation in Christ, it is not an intellectual work of men.

All those 'by faith' people. And all of us 'by faith' people. They -- anticipating a future Savior and us looking back at the past risen Savior.

Sorry, but men are not saved by faith, they are saved by grace through faith.

And there is no anticipation of salvation through a Man Who was God in the flesh Who died to take upon us the penalty for sin. There was an anticipation of a Messiah, yes, but the Gospels show that they had no clue, even when God reveals to them that Jesus is the Christ the Son of God:


Matthew 16:15-17 King James Version (KJV)

15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?

16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.


Immediately after this revelation (given to the disciples by God, also not an intellectual conclusion drawn by men) is declared Peter will-howbeit inadvertently-due to his lack of the revelation of the Gospel...reject the Gospel preached by none other than Jesus Christ Himself:


Matthew 16:20-23 King James Version (KJV)

20 Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.

21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.

22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.

23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.


Peter will go on to attempt to keep Christ from the Cross with physical violence (which itself is an attempt to see his own understanding of what Messiah was to accomplish fulfilled (physical redemption for Israel, see also Acts 1:6-7)), then will deny he even knows the Lord, and then will go back to his former occupation because he has lost all hope).

And I would throw in right here that John the Baptist was used to preach about the Lamb of God, yet in prison we see that he himself was not privy to an understanding of Who Christ was and what He would do:


Matthew 11 King James Version (KJV)

2 Now when John had heard in the prison the works of Christ, he sent two of his disciples,

3 And said unto him, Art thou he that should come, or do we look for another?


Yes, people had faith in the Old Testament, and were "saved by grace through faith," but we don't equate that with being eternally redeemed by the finished Work of Christ. There is a reason why He states "It is finished" just prior to His death.

Put 'us' back in the Old Testament times Now -- how would we be getting saved?

The same way any man will ever be saved...by grace through faith. But as I have said before, they were saved yet not Eternally Redeemed, just as we are saved and not glorified. Both of our eternal destinies are secured by grace through faith but that doesn' mean there isn't more that will take place within our salvation.

I'm a NKJ person. I grew up with KJ -- it was the only Bible available.

I use the KJV because, first, it is a great translation and I view much of newer translations to be sloppy, dry, and lacking in a fuller attempt to bring out concepts being presented in the original languages. Another primary reason I use it is that it is accepted by those who will read only a KJV, their reasons being but a side issue in my mind. So I don't want to alienate someone simply because he/she thinks God has replaced the original languages with KJV English. One thing I will say about the KJVonly (and no-one paying attention to my teaching would accuse me of that because I rely heavily on the original languages) is that at least they have a fervent loyalty to the Word of God. A loyalty that surpasses some of the teachings I see going around these days.

We even had Dr. Scoffields' notes at the bottom of the pages with either dark blue or black cover.

Commentaries have their place. Systems of Theologies can have their place. But I see that most people adopt the teachings of men and for many, this essentially keeps them from allowing God to speak to them. Everyone who has adopted a System who refuses to acknowledge the error of those systems (and they all have error) will be found to proof-texting error in an attempt to justify their adopted system and thereby...justifying their own beliefs. For many, any declaration of error within their system is often held as an attack on themselves. And if you pay very close attention to what most people say in their posts you are going to find that most people are defending themselves, rather than defending the Faith.

The saddest part of all this is that those who adopt systems and views they have not themselves verified in Scripture is this: they have adopted someone else's faith, rather than developing a faith of their own.


God bless.

 

[S.T.Ranger]

Sorry. I know you want to use the term 'temporal' as it is involved in the subject of this thread.

No need to be sorry, just a need to address the points which show your own view to be in error. Let's start with these two:

Luke 1:5-6 King James Version (KJV)


5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.


6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.



This states without controversy that Zacharias and Elisabeth were declared righteous, and this is before God. They were keeping the Law, walking in all of the commandments and ordinances...blameless. This is a clear statement that states they were justified due to their obedience to the Law. This corresponds to Paul's statement that "...the doers of the Law shall be justified:"



Romans 2:13-15 King James Version (KJV)


13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.


14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:


15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another)



Now we contrast Luke 1:5-6 with another statement in Scripture found just a few verses after this statement (which demands we examine the text for correlation):



Romans 3:10-11 King James Version (KJV)


10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:


11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.



And here is the question: do we nullify the fact that Zacharias and Elisabeth were justified based on their obedience to the Law, as well as Paul's statement that the doers of the Law shall be justified...in an attempt to maintain a tired and erroneous view that has existed for centuries?


Please address these two points:


1. No man was "looking forward to Jesus Christ" with an understanding that He would die for their sin and bestow Eternal Life;


2. Men and women were justified based on their obedience to God's will as revealed to men, but...that does not equate to Eternal Justification which is a result of Eternal Redemption.


Continued...

 

[S.T.Ranger]

But I disagree with what you are trying to do with it.

It's not me you are disagreeing with, it is the Word of God. You are nullifying some very simple statements in Scripture.

You aren't going to change what this states:


Romans 2:13-15 King James Version (KJV)

13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another)


You aren't going to change that the doers of the Law shall be justified, or the example of those who are justified because they do the Law, such as the Gentiles here, or Zacharius and Elisabeth in Luke 1:5-6, or for that matter...Cornelius. Many examples given in Scripture of Temporal Justification. And no examples of Scripture that detract from this simple truth. No address of the points raised...not even one of them.

The Israelites were never able to keep the Law. They broke the Law constantly. The demands of the Law, they fell short of.

You are imposing into Scripture the concept of "keeping the Law perfectly that one might have eternal life (Galatians 3:21). Of course no-one kept it perfectly because if they had been able to there would have been no need for Jesus Christ, eternal life would have been by the Law (as Paul states in Galatians 3:21).

And you point out that they fell short yet you still insist that Abraham...didn't. If he were justified on an equal basis of being justified by grace through the Redemption which is in Christ Jesus...why did CHrist need to die?

Because he (Abraham) wasn't justified in an eternal context whereby his need for a Savior was nullified.

Now, to the believing Israelites under the Law, they recognized this.

Sometimes.

And they recognized the provision the Law gave for a sacrifice when you fail under the Law.

And that provision was temporal:

Hebrews 10 King James Version (KJV)

1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.


2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.


3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.


4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

Even the annual sacrifice for the sins of Israel as a nation...was a parable:


Hebrews 9:7-9 King James Version (KJV)

7 But into the second went the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and for the errors of the people:

8 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:

9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;


Everything that precedes Jesus Christ, His Work, and what He accomplished was a figure/type.shadow/parable...not the reality. You are equating what was meant only to foreshadow the realities to the very realities unveiled in the New Testament

And so the believing Israelite would see that he broke the Law and he would come with his sacrifice which was a product of his faith. These were as Zacharias, and Elisabeth.

Again, you argue with the Scripture and impose into the text what is not there.


Luke 1:5-6 King James Version (KJV)

5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.

6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.


Show me why the declaration of their righteousness is false? Show me the basis is "they properly sacrificed."

Show me how this doesn't say "...they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless."

It is hard for thee to kick against the goads.

They were not righteous before God because they never broke the Law.

Doesn't matter, it still remains...

"...they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless."

You aren't going to nullify the Word of God with an attempt to hold on to the traditions and teachings of men.

They are declared righteous based on their walking in all the ordinances and commandments of the Lord...blameless." We know, based on a balanced understanding of Scripture, that the declaration of righteousness is based on...

...grace. The Grace of God. Not their works. But what you are rejecting is what Scripture states, they are declared righteous based on their response to God's will, just as Abraham and Rahab are in James 2. And when you can see that despite that they still needed a Savior because their righteousness was Temporal then you will be able to balance the Word of God yourself, and leave what it states in there without trying to nullify it.


Continued...

 

[S.T.Ranger]

They were righteous before God because they saw they could not keep the Law and in faith would bring the correct sacrifice.

And where exactly do you see this in Luke 1?

"...walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless" implies quite a bit more than simply properly offering up sacrifice.

And with that faith, God imputed righteousness to them.

We see why He imputed righteousness:


Luke 1:5-6 King James Version (KJV)

5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.

6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.


Justification based on what they did, not Justification based on what Christ did. It's right there, lol.

This is why God gave the Law.

The Law was given because of sin, and it showed man he was a sinner, and thus created a knowledge of the need of salvation. But it is the revelation GOd provided men which was bestowed by His grace that resulted in belief and faith, as well as works. Salvation is by grace alone. No man has ever been or will be saved unless God intervenes in their lives and goes to them. You won't find a simgle person this isn't true of in Scripture, beginning with Adam.

He didn't give it for man to think that he could keep it. He gave it to reveal man's need of a Saviour.

It's just a basic principle that men were cmmanded to keep the Law and that men received punishment for not keeping it. You can deny this if you like but it is a basic truth. You are nullifying what God has spoken:


Ezekiel 18:4-9 King James Version (KJV)

4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

5 But if a man be just, and do that which is lawful and right,

6 And hath not eaten upon the mountains, neither hath lifted up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, neither hath defiled his neighbour's wife, neither hath come near to a menstruous woman,

7 And hath not oppressed any, but hath restored to the debtor his pledge, hath spoiled none by violence, hath given his bread to the hungry, and hath covered the naked with a garment;

8 He that hath not given forth upon usury, neither hath taken any increase, that hath withdrawn his hand from iniquity, hath executed true judgment between man and man,

9 Hath walked in my statutes, and hath kept my judgments, to deal truly; he is just, he shall surely live, saith the Lord God.


Because most impose an eternal context into this passage as well they overlook that in view is physical life and physical death based on...keeping the Law.

Not eternal life, because no man will receive eternal life until Christ comes, dies, rises again, returns to Heaven...and begins baptizing men with the Holy Ghost. Which is the process of immersing men into God and He into them. We have eternal life because we are now in Him Who is Eternal.


Continued...

 

[Sue D.]

@S.T. Range -- you sound a bit Calvinistic in your comment that people are not saved by faith, but by grace through faith. Then again - Ephesians 2:8 - 9 " For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith -- and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God -- not by works, so that no one can boast."

It IS Because of God's Grace -- His unmerited favor towards us -- that we Can be saved at all.

But it's what / where a person places their Faith in , that does save them. 'we' place our Faith in the fact that the cross of Christ is sufficient to save us. Completely. No good works on part is needed.


And, the people in the Old Testament upon their death went to Abraham's bosom to wait -- the righteous were waiting for Christ to come get them upon His death and bodily resurrection. He took Them back with Him. The others in Hades did have the opportunity to accept Him right where they were. If some Did accept Him then they were taken up , too. Other wise they stayed where they are - waiting for the Final judgement day and they end up in the lake of fire and brimstone, also.

 

[S.T.Ranger]

Concerning (Rom. 2) I have already addressed it.

Actually, you haven't. You have simply stated your opinion and refused to address the points raised that show your opinion is erroneous.

You state that the text only shows no man can keep the Law when in fact the whole point is that justification is not because one hears the Law but does the Law...

...followed by an example among the Gentiles who perform the works of the Law despite being outside of the Sphere of the Word of God.

Your opinion is the exact opposite of what is actually said.

You have missed entirely what Paul is saying.

On the contrary, lol, I am the only one in this discussion who is leaving what is stated as it is. I am not dependent on imposing into the text...what isn't there.

If man can keep the Law, is he justified? Yes. But he can't keep the Law.

Not in the text:


Romans 2:13-15 King James Version (KJV)

13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another


Why do you think Paul gives an example of someone...doing the Law? How on earth can you possibly deny that they are...performing the works of the Law? They are doers, and if the Word of God states that the doers of the Law shall be justified, and it does (v.13)...who are you to deny the Word of God?

Thus you who sit in judgment of others because you think you are keeping the Law, are guilty as well, because no one can keep the Law. (Rom. 2:1)

This sounds as though you are reading from a commentary. None of it applies to the actual texts we are looking at.

It is true that those who judge others but are doing the same thing are judged by the same Law, however, we see a contrast between those who do good and those who do not preceding Paul's statement of Justification by keeping the Law:


Romans 2:7-11 King James Version (KJV)

7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

11 For there is no respect of persons with God.


Paul is contrasting Jew (who had the Law and the Word, Romans 3:1-2) and the Gentile, and makes the simple point that those who are doers of the Law, not hearers only (which refers to those who have heard the Law and judge others despite being themselves guilty)...shall be justified.

Just read your Bible.

The Jews had the Law.

Right. And their knowledge of sin based on the Law and the Word is contrasted with the knowledge of sin among Gentiles who have had the Law revealed to them by God. He is the One that wrote/writes it on the hearts of those outside the sphere of the Law and the Word of God.

The Gentiles knew the Law given to them by nature.

Nature didn't give them the Law, that is made clear in the fact that the natural man cannot perceive or receive the spiritual things of God within his natural condition (Romans 3:11; 1 Corinthians 2:14). God is the One that reveals truth to men. This is a consistent principle of Scripture, seen explicitly as well as implicitly.

Both are guilty if they sit in judgement of others as if they were not guilty.

True but not relevant to your denial of what Romans 2:13 states.

No, the conclusion is, (Rom. 2:12) "For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law."

And that is how men will be determined just of not:


Romans 2:13-16 King James Version (KJV)

13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another)

16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

Both Jew and Gentile are accountable to God as both have the Law. Both Jew and Gentile are guilty under the Law.

Again you state the exact opposite of what Scripture states:


Romans 2 King James Version (KJV)

14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another)


You say "Both Jew and Gentile are accountable to God as both have the Law," see above for what Scripture states.


Continued...

 

[Sue D.]

In the book of Job -- it was said that his kids had their parties / celebrations at various times and Job would offer up sacrifices in their behalf for any sins they might have committed in the process of having their fun. He was fulfilling his role as their father in protecting them spiritually. That would be a 'picture' of what Christ has now done on the cross for us. Except that now -- it's a matter of each person's acknowledging their own sinfulness and need For a Savior -- and God the Father becomes their personal heavenly Father.

And the thief on the cross -- the repentative one -- Jesus Christ assured him that that very day -- that man in his repentant state would be be with Christ in Paradise. That one thief went to Paradise a split second or so Before Christ died / Giving His life for mankind / He went to Paradise and got that one thief and brought him back up with him along with everyone else in Paradise.

The Other thief went to the Hades part. He rejected Christ just before his own death. Kind of wonder -- just now -- did the other one accept Him After all? Maybe Both thieves are with Christ.

 

[S.T.Ranger]

They are not justified because of the Law.

That is not what Scripture states:

Romans 2:13 King James Version (KJV)

13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

The problem, again, is that you are so afraid that someone might think Justification on an eternal basis is by performing the works of the Law you have blanked out anything that might even remotely support that. You don't need to worry about that because the justification in view...

...is temporal.

No-one will be saved by those works, simply justified on a temporal basis. It is the belief and faith that underlies the works which evidence the true reason why that person might overcome when they are judged. And both belief and faith are a result of God's grace. He reveals truth to the natural man, natural man responds. How he responds will determine whether he is justified or not.

They are guilty under the Law.

RIght...they. Because we have to remember that Paul is using this as an example to clarify his teachings concerning what is now being revealed to men:


Romans 3:20-25 King James Version (KJV)

20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;


Learn to understand what the "therefore" is there for. Romans 1 and 2 look back to the economies that precede this one. This one specifies that now the righteousness of God...apart from the Law...is manifest. That is brand new and it was established on the Death, Burial, and Resurrection of Christ.

There is no temporal justification by the law.

Of course there is:


Luke 1:5-6 King James Version (KJV)

5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.

6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

The only justification will be by faith.

Actually the only justification men will receive will be based on grace, not faith. You are putting the horse in the cart.

The Law cares not for temporal or eternal.

Quantrill

It does:

Hebrews 10 King James Version (KJV)

1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.


God bless.

 

[Sue D.]

If only one of those laws was broken - a person was guilty of All of it. And No one could keep every single one of them all the time Because Then they would be guilty of Pride Because they Had supposedly been able to keep every single one of them. As in "hey, I've just kept all these laws all week - Amazing isn't it. "

The law was given to show us what sin was And to show us our need For a Savior.

 

[Blunder_Duck]

I doubt this thread will put a stop to the centuries of Protestant Catholic debate on this topic. However, it is a relationship not a religion.

For me, I am justified by faith.
John 3:14-16 “And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in him may have eternal life For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. "

John 5:24
"Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life."

While working in service to God is an example of my salvation and an example of our justification unto sanctification, being we are led by God in his service (works), I think the misunderstanding arises when people think they need do good things in order to stay saved.

Matthew 5:16
"In the same way, let your light shine before others, so that they may see your good works and give glory to your Father who is in heaven."

James 2:14-20
"What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food, and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what good is that? So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works."

 

[S.T.Ranger]

@S.T. Range -- you sound a bit Calvinistic in your comment that people are not saved by faith, but by grace through faith.

Sorry to disappoint, but I am not a Calvinist and anyone that knows what Calvin taught will know that he taught men have always been regenerated in order to have faith. That is erroneous.

But I am glad your next statement comes into agreement with the point that was made.

I have not read your other responses so hopefully they will address the points, or at least one of the points I have asked you to address, that we might continue in this discussion...on topic.

Then again - Ephesians 2:8 - 9 " For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith -- and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God -- not by works, so that no one can boast."

It IS Because of God's Grace -- His unmerited favor towards us -- that we Can be saved at all.

That was the point.

Many today embrace and teach salvation by faith through grace, and that is error. We must always maintain the simple truth that no-one is saved apart from God's grace. Belief and Faith and Works are a result of that grace.

But it's what / where a person places their Faith in , that does save them. 'we' place our Faith in the fact that the cross of Christ is sufficient to save us. Completely. No good works on part is needed.

I agree, and that is why I have spent so much time pointing out, with numerous Scriptures...what the Old Testament placed their faith in, and what they did not place their faith in. That is being ignored. The Gospel of Christ was a Mystery not revealed to men in past Ages (Romans 16:25-26; Ephesians 3:3-5; Colossians 1:25-27) and faith in Christ was not available to men during the Age of Law nor after (Galatians 3:20-17).

And men were not redeemed from the Law and adotped as children of God until God sent His Son (Galatians 4:4-6).

Men were not reconciled to GOd until God was in Christ (manifested in the flesh among men, see also John 1:11-14) reconciling the world unto HImself (2 Corinthians 5:17-19).

Not much point in reposting these passages (though Ref-Tagger allows the passages to be viewed in this post) until someone takes a sincere interest in addressing them.

And, the people in the Old Testament upon their death went to Abraham's bosom to wait --

This is true. so why didn't they go to be with God in Heaven (Hebrews 9:8-9)?

the righteous were waiting for Christ to come get them upon His death and bodily resurrection.

No, actually they weren't, because they, like the disciples of Christ both before and after the REsurrection...knew not the Scriptures that He should rise from the dead (John 20:9).

He took Them back with Him.

THis is true as well, He liberated the Just (and only the Just) from Hades.

The others in Hades did have the opportunity to accept Him right where they were.

There isn't a single solitary Scriptural statement to this effect. If I have missed it I would please like to see it.

If some Did accept Him then they were taken up , too.

Again, I see no Biblical basis for this, and would have to see what it is you base this on in order to comment further.

Other wise they stayed where they are - waiting for the Final judgement day and they end up in the lake of fire and brimstone, also.

Only the Just were liberated from hades. Man's destiny is decided while they are alive, there is absolutely no basis for hope of salvation for those who die outside of God's will, regardless of the Age they lived in.


God bless.

 

[S.T.Ranger]

In the book of Job -- it was said that his kids had their parties / celebrations at various times and Job would offer up sacrifices in their behalf for any sins they might have committed in the process of having their fun. He was fulfilling his role as their father in protecting them spiritually. That would be a 'picture' of what Christ has now done on the cross for us. Except that now -- it's a matter of each person's acknowledging their own sinfulness and need For a Savior -- and God the Father becomes their personal heavenly Father.

Not really sure how this is relevant to the topic. Job's sacrifices were temporal and while they are a foreshadowing of the Cross, it was not Job dying in the stead of his children.

And the thief on the cross -- the repentative one -- Jesus Christ assured him that that very day -- that man in his repentant state would be be with Christ in Paradise.

RIght, Paradise, another name for the compartment of the Just in Hades. And that is where the thief was that day...in Hades.

That one thief went to Paradise a split second or so Before Christ died / Giving His life for mankind /

Actually, he did not: Christ dies before the thief.

He went to Paradise and got that one thief and brought him back up with him along with everyone else in Paradise.

While "Paradise" is used to speak of Heaven in two places, I lean heavily towards the Lord's statement meaning he would be in Hades with Him that day, because that is where Christ was...for three days:


Matthew 12:40

For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.


There is a good argument to be made that the Just of Hades did not precede the Lord in His return to Heaven.

The Other thief went to the Hades part. He rejected Christ just before his own death. Kind of wonder -- just now -- did the other one accept Him After all? Maybe Both thieves are with Christ.

Rather than speculate about issues like this, could you address the two points I asked you to (and if you have already great, I am responding to these in order).

God bless.

 

[S.T.Ranger]

If only one of those laws was broken - a person was guilty of All of it. And No one could keep every single one of them all the time Because Then they would be guilty of Pride Because they Had supposedly been able to keep every single one of them. As in "hey, I've just kept all these laws all week - Amazing isn't it. "

The law was given to show us what sin was And to show us our need For a Savior.

We all know no-one kept the Law perfectly, but that doesn't mean that we don't see people keeping the Law. The entire Covenant is based on keeping the Law.

We aren't talking about keeping the Law for salvation, we are simply speaking about being justified because the Law was kept. Again, we see this here:


Luke 1:5-6 King James Version (KJV)

5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.

6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.


Does this say they are righteous and walking in all of the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless or not?

God bless.

 

[Quantrill]

@S.T.Ranger

The whole core of this argument of yours rests on (Rom. 2). Most especially (Rom. 2:13). Because you are amiss in your interpretation of this, your whole argument goes down the drain.

If you isolate it from the context, then it appears as you want it to appear. (Rom. 2:13) "For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified." Only the doers of the law are justified. This is why many isolate verses or sentences.

But the whole point of (Rom. 2) is clearly stated in (Rom. 2:1). "Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things. You see? "Thou that judgest another, thou condemnest thyself"

Then read (Rom. 2:13) in light of that. "For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justifiied." Point being, you who make a pretence of keeping the law condemnest thyself. Why? Because you don't keep the law.

The whole chapter of (Rom. 2) is about showing the hypocrisy of those who think they are not like those described in (Rom. 1:18-32)

Point being...your argument rests on a faulty foundation. Your 'temporal justification' is not based on truth.

Quantrill

 

[Sue D.]

That Luke section is simply saying that they lived very righteous lives. But they were still sinners -- because All have sinned.

Lots of people in this world live pretty good lives. They obey all the laws , they are good neighbors, pay their taxes, etc. but that doesn't mean they are without sin. They are 'blameless' in that they don't purposely break laws.

Good point -- the soldiers were going to break the legs of Jesus to hasten His death, but found that He was already dead. So He was still dying on the cross for their sins.

Now I found the passage -- it's in 1 Peter 3:19 "through whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison vs 20 who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. -- apparently vs 19 could be taken out of context and used to talk about the spirits who were in Hades.

And maybe it's the RCC version of purgatory. That Old Testament people will get another chance for salvation while in the 'dark side' of Paradise. I was just researching it -- found that there are just as many 'versions' OF as there are people with opinions.

I guess that That is one of those questions that will be answered when we get to the New Jerusalem / heaven. And at That point it won't matter.

We are living in This age of grace.

 

[Sue D.]

@S.T.Ranger -- remind me what the two issues were that you want me to clarify. It's gotten lost in the shuffle of discussion.