The Bible and the Word of God

[Bill]

That's Jesus

Iam not Jesus , but i am the Sword of God

 

[Dylan569]

I'd be happy to. Actually, let me give you the exact scripture verse, even.

και την περικεφαλαιαν του σωτηριου δεξασθε και την μαχαιραν του πνευματος ο εστιν ρημα θεου​

(Ephesians 6:17 GRK)

"O" is neuter to agree with PNEUMA, not feminine to link to the word MAXAIRA (sword). The PNEUMA is the RHEMA of GOD. The Spirit is the Word(speaking) of God, not the Sword. When one really digs into the Greek, one even finds that the Sword is prayer.

For a longer explanation, please see my post here: It IS worth the read.

Post in thread 'How Do I Put on the Armor of God?'

Jun 29, 2021

Sword of the Spirit: The sword of the Spirit is the Word of God. This includes God's written Word (the Bible), God's incarnate Word (Jesus as Logos), and God's spoken Word (the Holy Spirit within us).

Well there... Hi to all.

It's my first post here, and I'm about to post something that might just freak everybody out on this website, but please bear with me... while my post is meant to edify it will take some thinking (if not study) on your part. In other words, don't dismiss this post out of hand, and yes, I quite understand the scope of its implications.

I wish to...

• Rhema

• 

Just a caution, though, don't fall for the fallacy of Appeal to Authority and dismiss my words out of hand because you haven't heard this teaching from your authorities. I can't count the number of times I've won this argument with Greek linguists. The modern teaching of Eph. 6:17 fails, because the practice of reading the English language has morphed over the last 400 years.

The modifying clause ("which is the RHEMA of God") is written in perfect English in the KJV because the modifying clause is supposed to attach to the antecedent noun. But Americans attach the modifying clause to "Sword" as they drop out the clause "of the Spirit" up inside their heads. It's just the way Americans read English. But in Greek there is no confusion, in that the gender of the modifier follows that of the noun which is modified.

Do you read Greek? I'm not trying to put you down, or puff myself up, it's just a fact of language that when we translate LOGOS into "Word" and we also translate RHEMA into "Word," English speakers cannot tell the difference between the LOGOS and the RHEMA. You can't see it - literally.

LINK to Liddell Scott Lexicon for RHEMA

A. that which is said or spoken, word, saying,​

Now I'll go back and check, but I'm pretty sure that I did not say that RHEMA was the Holy Spirit, but rather that the RHEMA OF GOD is the Holy Spirit. The voice of God SPEAKS to people, and He expects that we as believers are to hear his voice (which is not the ideas from our own mind figuring things out). In Romans 10, Paul described what he heard on the Road to Damascus as RHEMA.

So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the RHEMA of God (the speaking by Holy Spirit).​

(Romans 10:17 KJV)

Paul's faith came from his hearing (on the Road to Damascus) and such hearing comes from the Holy Spirit - the RHEMA THEOU.

When Peter confessed the Son of Man, was it by his human thoughts that he figured this out? I trow not.

And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. ​

(Matthew 16:17 KJV)

So who said this to Peter? Who told Peter? What RHEMA did Peter receive? A revelation from the Father in heaven (dia) by means of the Holy Spirit.


Yes, not RHEMA, but RHEMA THEOU, as shown above.


And I encourage you to do the entire word study for RHEMA, but let's start with the first verse in which it is written:

But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every RHEMA that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.​

(Matthew 4:4 KJV)

Sometimes these are recorded. Sometimes they are not.

Here was the Hebrews BIG mistake:

And they said unto Moses, Speak thou with us, and we will hear: but let not God speak with us, lest we die.​

(Exodus 20:19 KJV)

They rejected the RHEMA THEOU. It's a pretty scary thing the first time GOD talks to you.





Blessings,
Rhema

I learned many years ago in online discussions of doctrine, that when someone tries to snow me with their pretension to NT Greek scholarship, to go to the true recognized scholars of NT Greek. So, I'll present what true scholarship says about the Greek you have twisted and distorted.

First from the BDAG which stands for Bauer-Danker-Arndt-Gingrich, a renowned Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other Early Christian Literature. It is a third edition, published in 2000, and is widely regarded as the standard authority on Greek words and their meanings.

Nowhere in the entire entry under rhema is it defined as the Holy Spirit! I'll quote the section about Eph. 6:17 -

"ῥῆμα 1 that which is said, word, saying, expression, or statement of any kind...Gener. the sing. brings together all the divine teachings as a unified whole, w. some such mng. as gospel, or confession: ἐγγύς σου τὸ ῥῆμά ἐστιν Ro 10:8a (Dt 30:14); cp. vs. 9 v.l. MSuggs, ‘The Word Is Near You’ Ro 10:6–10, JKnox Festschr. ’67, 289–312. Cp. Eph 5:26. ἐπότισεν ῥήματι he (Paul) gave (Artemilla) a drink of words to ponder AcPl Ha 4, 5. τὸ ῥῆμα τὸ εὐαγγελισθὲν εἰς ὑμᾶς 1 Pt 1:25b. W. objective gen. τὸ ῥῆμα τῆς πίστεως Ro 10:8b. W. subjective gen. ῥῆμα θεοῦ Eph 6:17; Hb 6:5. τὸ ῥ. κυρίου 1 Pt 1:25a (cp. Is 40:8)"

From the Expositor's Greek New Testament - "Eph 6:17... and the sword of the Spirit. The gen. here cannot be that of appos. (although it is so taken by Harl., Olsh., etc.), for the following explanation renders that inept. It must be the gen. of origin, = “the sword supplied by the Spirit”.—ὅ ἐστι ῥῆμα Θεοῦ: which is the word of God. Some strangely make the ὅ refer to the πνεύματος, = “the Spirit who is the Word of God” (Olsh., Von Sod., etc.); but nowhere else is the Spirit identified with the Word."

From H. Meyer Critical and Exegetical NT - "Eph 6:17...τὴν μάχαιραν τοῦ πνεύματος] The genitive cannot here be appositional (in opposition to Harless, Olshausen, Schenkel, and older expositors), since there follows the explanation ὅ ἐστι ῥῆμα Θεοῦ, from which it is clear that the sword of the Spirit is not the Spirit itself, but something distinct therefrom, namely, the word of God (comp. Heb 4:12). Comp. also Bleek. If Paul had wished to designate the Spirit itself as sword, the explanation ὅ ἐστι ῥῆμα Θεοῦ would have been inappropriate, inasmuch as the word of God and the Holy Spirit are different things;[311] in Romans, too, πνεῦμα means nothing else than the Holy Spirit."

From Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon - "Eph. 6:17... doctrine, instruction (cf. Winer's Grammar, 123 (117)): (τό) ῥῆμα (τοῦ) Θεοῦ, divine instruction by the preachers of the gospel, Rom 10:17 (R G; but L T Tr WH ῥήματος Χριστοῦ; others give ῥήματος here the sense of command, commission; (cf. Meyer)); saving truth which has God for its author, Eph 6:17; also τοῦ κυρίου, 1Pe 1:25; words of prophecy, prophetic announcement, τά ῥήματα τοῦ Θεοῦ, Rev 17:17, Rec. (others, οἱ λόγοι τοῦ Θεοῦ).

From the 1611/1769 King James version - "And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:" (Eph 6:17 KJV)

From the 2021 NRSVue - "Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God." (Eph 6:17 NRSVue)

Over the span of 400+ years, the standard English translations make "sword" to be the "word", not the Spirit! I have many English translations, and I find none that translate rhema as being the Holy Spirit.

In this day, I only know of the con-artist TV-evangelists who try to define the "word" as the "Holy Spirit" and concoct a deceitful doctrine in order to fleece the gullible.

 

[Bill]

I learned many years ago in online discussions of doctrine, that when someone tries to snow me with their pretension to NT Greek scholarship, to go to the true recognized scholars of NT Greek. So, I'll present what true scholarship says about the Greek you have twisted and distorted.

First from the BDAG which stands for Bauer-Danker-Arndt-Gingrich, a renowned Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other Early Christian Literature. It is a third edition, published in 2000, and is widely regarded as the standard authority on Greek words and their meanings.

Nowhere in the entire entry under rhema is it defined as the Holy Spirit! I'll quote the section about Eph. 6:17 -

"ῥῆμα 1 that which is said, word, saying, expression, or statement of any kind...Gener. the sing. brings together all the divine teachings as a unified whole, w. some such mng. as gospel, or confession: ἐγγύς σου τὸ ῥῆμά ἐστιν Ro 10:8a (Dt 30:14); cp. vs. 9 v.l. MSuggs, ‘The Word Is Near You’ Ro 10:6–10, JKnox Festschr. ’67, 289–312. Cp. Eph 5:26. ἐπότισεν ῥήματι he (Paul) gave (Artemilla) a drink of words to ponder AcPl Ha 4, 5. τὸ ῥῆμα τὸ εὐαγγελισθὲν εἰς ὑμᾶς 1 Pt 1:25b. W. objective gen. τὸ ῥῆμα τῆς πίστεως Ro 10:8b. W. subjective gen. ῥῆμα θεοῦ Eph 6:17; Hb 6:5. τὸ ῥ. κυρίου 1 Pt 1:25a (cp. Is 40:8)"

From the Expositor's Greek New Testament - "Eph 6:17... and the sword of the Spirit. The gen. here cannot be that of appos. (although it is so taken by Harl., Olsh., etc.), for the following explanation renders that inept. It must be the gen. of origin, = “the sword supplied by the Spirit”.—ὅ ἐστι ῥῆμα Θεοῦ: which is the word of God. Some strangely make the ὅ refer to the πνεύματος, = “the Spirit who is the Word of God” (Olsh., Von Sod., etc.); but nowhere else is the Spirit identified with the Word."

From H. Meyer Critical and Exegetical NT - "Eph 6:17...τὴν μάχαιραν τοῦ πνεύματος] The genitive cannot here be appositional (in opposition to Harless, Olshausen, Schenkel, and older expositors), since there follows the explanation ὅ ἐστι ῥῆμα Θεοῦ, from which it is clear that the sword of the Spirit is not the Spirit itself, but something distinct therefrom, namely, the word of God (comp. Heb 4:12). Comp. also Bleek. If Paul had wished to designate the Spirit itself as sword, the explanation ὅ ἐστι ῥῆμα Θεοῦ would have been inappropriate, inasmuch as the word of God and the Holy Spirit are different things;[311] in Romans, too, πνεῦμα means nothing else than the Holy Spirit."

From Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon - "Eph. 6:17... doctrine, instruction (cf. Winer's Grammar, 123 (117)): (τό) ῥῆμα (τοῦ) Θεοῦ, divine instruction by the preachers of the gospel, Rom 10:17 (R G; but L T Tr WH ῥήματος Χριστοῦ; others give ῥήματος here the sense of command, commission; (cf. Meyer)); saving truth which has God for its author, Eph 6:17; also τοῦ κυρίου, 1Pe 1:25; words of prophecy, prophetic announcement, τά ῥήματα τοῦ Θεοῦ, Rev 17:17, Rec. (others, οἱ λόγοι τοῦ Θεοῦ).

From the 1611/1769 King James version - "And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:" (Eph 6:17 KJV)

From the 2021 NRSVue - "Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God." (Eph 6:17 NRSVue)

Over the span of 400+ years, the standard English translations make "sword" to be the "word", not the Spirit! I have many English translations, and I find none that translate rhema as being the Holy Spirit.

In this day, I only know of the con-artist TV-evangelists who try to define the "word" as the "Holy Spirit" and concoct a deceitful doctrine in order to fleece the gullible.

So when i tell you I am the Sword of God. Where does that fit ?

There is a reason a more " learned " person can be confused, because having all the intellegence, knowlege, and logic of humans, is nothing when it is compaired to God.

Look at Moses, taught by the teachers in Egypt as a prince. Yet he could not comprehend how a bush that burns was not consumed.

You have little to none experience in Spiritual Warfare. And when i talk about it, the concepts are foreign to you. You are very intelligent as others here at Talk Jesus. But comprehend little of the depth of God.

 

[Rhema]

I learned many years ago in online discussions of doctrine, that when someone tries to snow me with their pretension to NT Greek scholarship, to go to the true recognized scholars of NT Greek. So, I'll present what true scholarship says about the Greek you have twisted and distorted.

(B for effort?)

I rather think you snowed yourself. And at this point I can't tell if you just want to be combative or too emotionally worked up to read what I actually wrote.

Nowhere in the entire entry under rhema is it defined as the Holy Spirit! I'll quote the section about Eph. 6:17 -

Because Nowhere did I say that.

If you would take the time to cool down, take a deep breath, put on your reading speckles and try again, it might be beneficial, because NO WHERE did I say "RHEMA" is defined as the Holy Spirit. (Truly, like what's wrong with you dude. Your Straw Man (word deleted) isn't appreciated.)

I said the RHEMA of GOD is defined as the Holy Spirit in Ephesians. And if you don't know how to read Greek, none of your dictionaries or commentaries or expositories are going to help you understand what a modifying clause is and how modifiers must match the gender of the nouns they modify.

I gave a perfectly rational explanation, and you come back with this nonsense?

Some strangely make the ὅ refer to the πνεύματος, = “the Spirit who is the Word of God” (Olsh., Von Sod., etc.); but nowhere else is the Spirit identified with the Word."

Well you can add Dr. Alfred Marshal to that list (from the Zondervan Interlinear) along with every other Greek teacher you know.

And it's not "strange." The grammar is simple, and just because "nowhere else is the Spirit identified with the Word" means it isn't so in Eph.6:17 ??

OMG what a wonderful way to trash scripture. It CAN'T be HERE (in this passage) because it isn't over THERE (in any other passage).

From the Expositor's Greek New Testament

Well now you know what book you can trash.

From H. Meyer Critical and Exegetical NT

Make that two.

If Paul had wished to designate the Spirit itself as sword, the explanation ὅ ἐστι ῥῆμα Θεοῦ would have been inappropriate,

He didn't. The author wished to designate that the Sword of RHEMA is prayer. So that's a Straw Man inside your book.

I don't "snow" anybody, sir, and you should learn to have some respect for people you don't know. Because I am dead certain at this point that you have no clue what I meant, or what Eph 6:17,18 means either. (Ahh... old guy. Now I get it. You don't have respect for anybody. Okay, it happens. I'll live with it.)

from which it is clear that the sword of the Spirit is not the Spirit itself,

Now I can agree with that, because the sword is prayer. The passage never said, nor ever meant to say that the Sword was the Spirit itself. The Greek text literally says that the PNUEMA is the RHEMA THEOU.

πνευματος ο εστιν ρημα θεου​

inasmuch as the word of God and the Holy Spirit are different things

Which "word of God"? Does your "scholarly authority" mean LOGOS or RHEMA here? One cannot tell. And odds are that even he doesn't' know, and thinks it to mean BIBLE. So I'm not surprised that you would be just as confused as your authorities.

Over the span of 400+ years, the standard English translations make "sword" to be the "word", not the Spirit! I have many English translations, and I find none that translate rhema as being the Holy Spirit.

Sir. You truly cannot be that thick. In English, the modifying clause attaches to the antecedent noun. (Might you have a former 10th grade English teacher nearby?)

The modifying clause is "which is the word(RHEMA) of God" so what's the antecedent noun? Read your own quotes.

From the 1611/1769 King James version - "And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:" (Eph 6:17 KJV)

From the 2021 NRSVue - "Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God." (Eph 6:17 NRSVue)

The truth is, you don't read the King's English, and likely never did. You nor your pastors.

In this day, I only know of the con-artist TV-evangelists who try to define the "word" as the "Holy Spirit" and concoct a deceitful doctrine in order to fleece the gullible.

As Trump would say, "You're a nasty little man. Just nasty." You don't know me. Why would you say such a nasty thing?

BUT... since your post seems to claim some air of scholarly superiority, I would ask two things. First, your CV. The seminary you graduated from.

Second. BY YOURSELF, give me your translation:

και την περικεφαλαιαν του σωτηριου δεξασθε και την μαχαιραν του πνευματος ο εστιν ρημα θεου δια πασης προσευχης και δεησεως προσευχομενοι εν παντι καιρω εν πνευματι και εις αυτο τουτο αγρυπνουντες εν παση προσκαρτερησει και δεησει περι παντων των αγιων​

And if you don't read Greek, admit it.

(As kind as I can possibly be at this point),
Rhema

 

[twcstp]

Yes. Why would you judge me. I have had a problem with judgement for a long time, judgement so bad which God alone could deliver me from. Read the story of Jonah, Watch it, and let's rejoice. Even cattle, EVEN cattle our Lord God is compassionate towards!! Look at the KJV yourself and see that it is true! Our GOD is Glorious!

 

[KingJ]

It has been a long theological debate (decades before my time) as to whether the Bible IS the Word of God or whether the Bible CONTAINS the Word of God.

Technically, one could say that the Bible IS NOT the Word of God if there is anything in the Bible that directly states that it is NOT the Word of God. Oddly enough Paul provides such evidence:

But to the rest I, not the Lord, say: If any brother has a wife who does not believe, and she is willing to live with him, let him not divorce her.​

(1 Corinthians 7:12 NKJV)

To the rest I say—I and not the Lord—that if any believer has a wife who is an unbeliever, and she consents to live with him, he should not divorce her.​

(1 Corinthians 7:12 NRSV)

Paul directly states that his council is from him and "not the Lord." If something is Not from the Lord, then it's not the Word of God. How could it be? Rather, it's the Word of Paul.

Now I'm sure there are other considerations and opinions and excuses and objections and rants and raves, but the above would lead one to conclude that the Bible contains the Word of God. Even Jesus seems to give testimony about this, since it is by Jesus that one is saved, not the scripture.

You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me.​

(John 5:39 NKJV)

"You search the scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that testify on my behalf.​

(John 5:39 NRSV)

As one can read above, then, Jesus directly states that the scriptures (GRAPHE or Bible) testifies to Him - the Word of God (LOGOS).

So the Bible is not the Word of God, but rather is a testimony about the Word of God. It contains a testimony about the LOGOS(word) of God - Jesus.

And that testimony should be in our hearts rather than clutched to our hearts because of superstition in having a holy book.

You are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read by all men; clearly you are an epistle of Christ, ministered by us, written not with ink but by the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of flesh, that is, of the heart.​

(2 Corinthians 3:2-3 NKJV)

Of course there is more I could say, and I might do so later, but I think the above provides a good start for explaining my views.

God bless,
Rhema

You are going off on a dangerous trail with this kind of thinking.

Tim 3:16 All scripture is God-breathed.

Every single word and line in scripture is anointed by God. Every single word and line was penned by a human. To cherry pick a line from Paul where he says he is quoting his opinion is very silly. He speaks his mind in many instances. He needed to specifically state ''this is my opinion'' as a result of the 'ruling' he was giving on the specific topic.

 

[KingJ]

(But by now, everybody should know that I'm not a Classic or Orthodox Trinitarian. I have forgotten more about the Trinity than I ever knew.

What are you then?

 

[KingJ]

What you wrote is not your peculiar theory, but a demonic theory, i.e. in the way the Devil likes.

Agreed.

@Rhema you need to think carefully with the statements you are making. Insulting the authenticity of scripture is insulting God. Do you believe God's helping hand has not been on the bible all these years? Of course it has!!

I worry about the remaining lifespan of all who mock the validity and truthfulness of scripture. Not saying you are 10/10 guilty, please note that, but you are certainly making statements that can stumble readers and cause mature Christians to raise their eyebrow at you.

It would be wise to avoid any discussion even remotely insulting and mocking scripture. You are treading on thin ice with God. Not wise.

Scripture is sound and it is the living word of God! God uses it to reveal truths to all His children on a daily basis!

What denomination are you?

 

[Dylan569]

(B for effort?)

I rather think you snowed yourself. And at this point I can't tell if you just want to be combative or too emotionally worked up to read what I actually wrote.


Because Nowhere did I say that.

If you would take the time to cool down, take a deep breath, put on your reading speckles and try again, it might be beneficial, because NO WHERE did I say "RHEMA" is defined as the Holy Spirit. (Truly, like what's wrong with you dude. Your Straw Man crap isn't appreciated.)

I said the RHEMA of GOD is defined as the Holy Spirit in Ephesians. And if you don't know how to read Greek, none of your dictionaries or commentaries or expositories are going to help you understand what a modifying clause is and how modifiers must match the gender of the nouns they modify.

I gave a perfectly rational explanation, and you come back with this nonsense?


Well you can add Dr. Alfred Marshal to that list (from the Zondervan Interlinear) along with every other Greek teacher you know.

And it's not "strange." The grammar is simple, and just because "nowhere else is the Spirit identified with the Word" means it isn't so in Eph.6:17 ??

OMG what a wonderful way to trash scripture. It CAN'T be HERE (in this passage) because it isn't over THERE (in any other passage).

Well now you know what book you can trash.


Make that two.


He didn't. The author wished to designate that the Sword of RHEMA is prayer. So that's a Straw Man inside your book.

I don't "snow" anybody, sir, and you should learn to have some respect for people you don't know. Because I am dead certain at this point that you have no clue what I meant, or what Eph 6:17,18 means either. (Ahh... old guy. Now I get it. You don't have respect for anybody. Okay, it happens. I'll live with it.)


Now I can agree with that, because the sword is prayer. The passage never said, nor ever meant to say that the Sword was the Spirit itself. The Greek text literally says that the PNUEMA is the RHEMA THEOU.

πνευματος ο εστιν ρημα θεου​

Which "word of God"? Does your "scholarly authority" mean LOGOS or RHEMA here? One cannot tell. And odds are that even he doesn't' know, and thinks it to mean BIBLE. So I'm not surprised that you would be just as confused as your authorities.


Sir. You truly cannot be that thick. In English, the modifying clause attaches to the antecedent noun. (Might you have a former 10th grade English teacher nearby?)

The modifying clause is "which is the word(RHEMA) of God" so what's the antecedent noun? Read your own quotes.


The truth is, you don't read the King's English, and likely never did. You nor your pastors.


As Trump would say, "You're a nasty little man. Just nasty." You don't know me. Why would you say such a nasty thing?

BUT... since your post seems to claim some air of scholarly superiority, I would ask two things. First, your CV. The seminary you graduated from.

Second. BY YOURSELF, give me your translation:

και την περικεφαλαιαν του σωτηριου δεξασθε και την μαχαιραν του πνευματος ο εστιν ρημα θεου δια πασης προσευχης και δεησεως προσευχομενοι εν παντι καιρω εν πνευματι και εις αυτο τουτο αγρυπνουντες εν παση προσκαρτερησει και δεησει περι παντων των αγιων​

And if you don't read Greek, admit it.

(As kind as I can possibly be at this point),
Rhema

It is true that Dr. Alfred Marshall in a footnote indicates that rhema refers to the Spirit, not the sword; but of course with no explanation or commentary. For those who have the understanding of rhema as the utterance of the Spirit, it is explained as in the following on page 158.

From The Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges, The book of Ephesians by H. C. G. Moule, M.A., 1893

"the word of God| The sure utterance of Revealed Truth. The Gr. word (as in ch. v. 26, where see note,) is not logos but rhéma. Doubtless the reference is not to be limited to the very words of Scripture; for true conclusions from them, in the Creeds for example, are ‘‘ utterances” of Divine truth. But the evidence of Scripture itself, as it indicates historically the principles and practice of the Lord and the Apostles in regard of the Written Word, is altogether in favour of interpreting the phrase here, as to its main and permanent meaning, of the believing use, in spiritual conflict, of the Scriptures; the Written Word, revealing the Living Word. It is true that when this Epistle was written, the Spirit, Whose work in producing Scripture was still in progress, was also speaking direct to the Church in other modes (see e.g, Acts xi. 28; 1 Cor. xiv. ; &c.). But that this was a great passing phase of the Church’s experience is indicated by 1 Cor. xiii. 8, and by the broad facts of history. And meanwhile both Christ and the Apostles appeal to the Written Word for proof and certainty in a manner altogether peculiar, and which calls for the close personal study of the Christian disciple.

Above all, observe that the Lord Himself, in His Temptation, the history of which should be compared carefully with this whole p 3 uses exclusively verbal citations, written ‘‘utterances,” from the Scriptures, as His sword; and this immediately after His Baptism and the Descent of the Holy Spirit (Matt. iii. r6—iv. 11; Luke iv. 1—13). No suggestion could be more pregnant than this as to the abiding position of the Written Word under the Dispensation of the Spirit."

The Epistle to the Ephesians : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

176 pages ; cm

archive.org

I underlined the explanation given as to why rhema instead of logos is used, because of the following:

"First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation, because no prophecy ever came by human will, but men and women moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God." 2Pe 1:20-21 NRSVue In 3:16 Paul's writing is indicated to be scripture.

The fact that the Holy Spirit gave "utterance" in revelation to the Apostles as authenticated by their "signs of an Apostle", their miracles; in no way gives support to those frauds in pulpits in this day!

 

[Bill]

Agreed.

@Rhema you need to think carefully with the statements you are making. Insulting the authenticity of scripture is insulting God. Do you believe God's helping hand has not been on the bible all these years? Of course it has!!

I worry about the remaining lifespan of all who mock the validity and truthfulness of scripture. Not saying you are 10/10 guilty, please note that, but you are certainly making statements that can stumble readers and cause mature Christians to raise their eyebrow at you.

It would be wise to avoid any discussion even remotely insulting and mocking scripture. You are treading on thin ice with God. Not wise.

Scripture is sound and it is the living word of God! God uses it to reveal truths to all His children on a daily basis!

What denomination are you?

Lol , you make me laugh as if God is going to be offended by something so petty.

The things that God gets offended on are people who say that they are followers of his son, and yet do nothing to follow his son. They constantly talk against people who do follow his son over stuff that is so ridiculously little, and yet paint them as being Heretics.

Another thing that really offends God is people who also claim to be followers of Jesus his son. And yet have no value to human life committing abortions willy-nilly as if the creation of God means nothing. As if God's Own work with creation of human beings has no value to it, or those who feel they can take the life of these humans these created children of God. Those are the ones that offend God.

There are many people in the world that may come across as those who offend God, but they don't know God yet and do harm to others. Like human traffickers and so on. It isn't that they are ignorant people it's rather that they do stupid things.

The greater offense comes from those who claim to be Christian but do not know what it means to be Christian

 

[Curtis]

The Bible is NOT Jesus who is the Word of God. The Word of God singular (Jesus) speaks the words of God plural.

The Bible contains the words of God.

 

[Admon Mikha'el]

It has been a long theological debate (decades before my time) as to whether the Bible IS the Word of God or whether the Bible CONTAINS the Word of God.

Technically, one could say that the Bible IS NOT the Word of God if there is anything in the Bible that directly states that it is NOT the Word of God. Oddly enough Paul provides such evidence:

But to the rest I, not the Lord, say: If any brother has a wife who does not believe, and she is willing to live with him, let him not divorce her.​

(1 Corinthians 7:12 NKJV)

To the rest I say—I and not the Lord—that if any believer has a wife who is an unbeliever, and she consents to live with him, he should not divorce her.​

(1 Corinthians 7:12 NRSV)

Paul directly states that his council is from him and "not the Lord." If something is Not from the Lord, then it's not the Word of God. How could it be? Rather, it's the Word of Paul.

Now I'm sure there are other considerations and opinions and excuses and objections and rants and raves, but the above would lead one to conclude that the Bible contains the Word of God. Even Jesus seems to give testimony about this, since it is by Jesus that one is saved, not the scripture.

You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me.​

(John 5:39 NKJV)

"You search the scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that testify on my behalf.​

(John 5:39 NRSV)

As one can read above, then, Jesus directly states that the scriptures (GRAPHE or Bible) testifies to Him - the Word of God (LOGOS).

So the Bible is not the Word of God, but rather is a testimony about the Word of God. It contains a testimony about the LOGOS(word) of God - Jesus.

And that testimony should be in our hearts rather than clutched to our hearts because of superstition in having a holy book.

You are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read by all men; clearly you are an epistle of Christ, ministered by us, written not with ink but by the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of flesh, that is, of the heart.​

(2 Corinthians 3:2-3 NKJV)

Of course there is more I could say, and I might do so later, but I think the above provides a good start for explaining my views.

God bless,
Rhema

Titus 3:9 9;But avoid stupid controversies, genealogies, quarrels and fights about the Torah; because they are worthless and futile.​

So much of what is discussed on TJ is worthless and futile

 

[KingJ]

Lol , you make me laugh as if God is going to be offended by something so petty.

God takes stumbling His children seriously, so disagree. Completely disagree!!

A close person to me has been terribly stumbled by some clown on youtube. We need to be so careful what we teach!!!!

Now in this thread, @Rhema is running down scripture. What do you think that does to a reader? Perhaps not the first post of his, but the second and third and fourth.

Leave a young or weak Christian with a smart ex Christian atheist for a day and they will be so shattered in their faith. It is your and my job to spot heresy that can do this and call it out for what it is.

The things that God gets offended on are people who say that they are followers of his son, and yet do nothing to follow his son.

Sure, agree.

They constantly talk against people who do follow his son over stuff that is so ridiculously little, and yet paint them as being Heretics.

Yes, many like that, agree.

Another thing that really offends God is people who also claim to be followers of Jesus his son. And yet have no value to human life committing abortions willy-nilly as if the creation of God means nothing. As if God's Own work with creation of human beings has no value to it, or those who feel they can take the life of these humans these created children of God. Those are the ones that offend God.

Agree high level. But, we need to note that every type of sin has degrees to it. I would not call any who abort in the germinal stage guilty of the mortal sin of murder. The ***** you waste on the floor is alive and has the ability to live and find an egg in the fallopian tube for six days. If a girl is raped and decides to abort in this first 6-8 days, she is guilty of a very small venial sin. After 8 days, when there is an embryo and then a fetus, it becomes a much more grievous sin.

There are many people in the world that may come across as those who offend God, but they don't know God yet and do harm to others. Like human traffickers and so on. It isn't that they are ignorant people it's rather that they do stupid things.

Human traffickers are among the most evil people on the planet. Nothing 'stupid' about their actions. We all know what is evil according to Gen 3:22. They know exactly what they are doing. Complete torture of children. They are days away from death and eternal suffering. They would never qualify for a session in Purgatory!

The greater offense comes from those who claim to be Christian but do not know what it means to be Christian

The most important thing about being a Christian is being an ambassador for Jesus 2 Cor 5:20 and keeping ourselves ready for Jesus like a bride awaiting her wedding day.

False teaching from a Christian, the kind that can stumble and do serious damage to weak and young believers, is a mortal sin!

Matt 18:6 If anyone causes one of these little ones those who believe in me to stumble, it would be better for them to have a large millstone hung around their neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.

 

[KingJ]

@Bill When anyone who should know better (IE Christian, one professing to be a Christian), mocks either God, Jesus, Holy Spirit and as in this case, scripture, they need to tread so carefully. They would be wise to be TERRIFIED of God! 100% TERRIFIED!!!!

It is false teaching and if you are someone who knows Jesus and how true scripture is, yet still don't care to mock it, wow, you would be lucky to live another week in my honest opinion.

I pray that Rhema is simply naive on the topic and does truly not grasp what he is insinuating.

 

[Bill]

The Bible is NOT Jesus who is the Word of God. The Word of God singular (Jesus) speaks the words of God plural.

The Bible contains the words of God.

In the same way you can be a Jew with the blood of Abraham in your viens, the "true Jew" is what God seeks, in the heart.

As Paul states, a Jew does not only look like a Jew with the physical circumcision. A " true Jew" is one whose heart is circumcised.

The same can be said about the Scripture. The scripture itself is the inspired Word of God, yet for those who recieve the scripture into thier hearts can be said to have recieved Jesus into thier hearts. Thier hearts have become circumcised by the Word.

 

[Charlie24]

It has been a long theological debate (decades before my time) as to whether the Bible IS the Word of God or whether the Bible CONTAINS the Word of God.

Technically, one could say that the Bible IS NOT the Word of God if there is anything in the Bible that directly states that it is NOT the Word of God. Oddly enough Paul provides such evidence:

But to the rest I, not the Lord, say: If any brother has a wife who does not believe, and she is willing to live with him, let him not divorce her.​

(1 Corinthians 7:12 NKJV)

To the rest I say—I and not the Lord—that if any believer has a wife who is an unbeliever, and she consents to live with him, he should not divorce her.​

(1 Corinthians 7:12 NRSV)

Paul directly states that his council is from him and "not the Lord." If something is Not from the Lord, then it's not the Word of God. How could it be? Rather, it's the Word of Paul.

Now I'm sure there are other considerations and opinions and excuses and objections and rants and raves, but the above would lead one to conclude that the Bible contains the Word of God. Even Jesus seems to give testimony about this, since it is by Jesus that one is saved, not the scripture.

You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me.​

(John 5:39 NKJV)

"You search the scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that testify on my behalf.​

(John 5:39 NRSV)

As one can read above, then, Jesus directly states that the scriptures (GRAPHE or Bible) testifies to Him - the Word of God (LOGOS).

So the Bible is not the Word of God, but rather is a testimony about the Word of God. It contains a testimony about the LOGOS(word) of God - Jesus.

And that testimony should be in our hearts rather than clutched to our hearts because of superstition in having a holy book.

You are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read by all men; clearly you are an epistle of Christ, ministered by us, written not with ink but by the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of flesh, that is, of the heart.​

(2 Corinthians 3:2-3 NKJV)

Of course there is more I could say, and I might do so later, but I think the above provides a good start for explaining my views.

God bless,
Rhema

Let me point out something that I said a while back and will point out again, you are reckless with the Word of God!

Back in vs.6 Paul said that what he was about to say was "by permission" from the Lord and not by commandment of the Lord.

He then discusses the issue of choosing to be celibate or married. God leaves this to the individual to decide, and Paul says that it's better to be as he is, celibate. We are plainly told by Paul in 2 Tim. 3:16 that "all Scripture is inspired by God." Even what Paul said by permission is inspired or we wouldn't be reading it in the Bible.

Then in the next vs. 10, he returns to the commandment of the Lord, "And unto the married I command." This is the direct commandment of God Paul is about to give.

Again in vs. 12 Paul returns to "But to the rest I speak, not the Lord." Paul is now discussing mixed marriages (saved and unsaved). The Lord never gave us anything about mixed marriages, but Paul is making it clear here that he is giving it us and it is inspired by the Lord.

You are reckless in creating doubt to the reader that Paul is speaking that which God did not allow. I don't know where you learned this, but I can assure you that God is not pleased with it

 

[Admon Mikha'el]

Is there anything we Christians will not argue about?! No wonder it is said that Christianity is a dying religion!

 

[Charlie24]

Is there anything we Christians will not argue about?! No wonder it is said that Christianity is a dying religion!

Therein lies the responsibility to God.

I'd much rather be ridiculed by man now in pointing this out, that to later be ridiculed by God for not pointing it out.

That's why I'm careful in reading this and that, the responsibility to God.

Sometimes I wish I hadn't read what I had just read!

 

[Curtis]

Jesus said......

John 5:39 You search and investigate and pore over the Scriptures diligently, because you suppose and trust that you have eternal life through them. And these [very Scriptures] testify about Me! (AMP)

Jesus Christ is the one and only (singular) Word of God. Scriptures that were God-breathed point to the one and only true Word of God who is Jesus Christ himself. All scriptures testify, and point to Jesus Christ who is called the Word of God.

 

[Charlie24]

Jesus said......

John 5:39 You search and investigate and pore over the Scriptures diligently, because you suppose and trust that you have eternal life through them. And these [very Scriptures] testify about Me! (AMP)

Jesus Christ is the one and only (singular) Word of God. Scriptures that were God-breathed point to the one and only true Word of God who is Jesus Christ himself. All scriptures testify, and point to Jesus Christ who is called the Word of God.

I agree, Curtis!

In John 5:39, Christ is responding to the Jews, the Sanhedrin who Christ is telling, you think you have found eternal life in the Scriptures, but you haven't, the Scripture is about Me, and you will not come to Me.

Paul told us that ALL Scripture is inspired by God. Every line in the Bible is what God wants us to know.

There should be no doubt as to the purity of the Scripture, and there won't be if the faith is proper.