The dangerous doctrine that we can lose our salvation.

[Glow]

Before you respond, I ask that you read everything I write. And don't take my word for it, but seek God in prayer and search the scriptures to get a full understanding.

Again, I ask that you read everything.

The doctrine that you can lose your salvation makes me sick to my stomach. It completely rejects that the gift of God is through grace, and makes people think that after you are saved, you can "work" your way into Heaven by keeping the law. The reason used by many, for us being able to lose our salvation is because "people will think they are saved forever, and sin, and go against God," but this is completely unbiblical.

Here are my arguments:

1) The doctrine that you can lose your salvation is not biblical.

Ephesians 1:13-14 says, referring to Christ: "In whom you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after you believed, you were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory."

2 Corinthians 1:21,22 says: "Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us, set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come."

If we receive the Holy Spirit by faith (which we do), and if the Holy Spirit is a seal, guaranteeing what is to come, then we cannot lose our salvation.

2) The doctrine that you can lose your salvation assumes that we are not new creatures in Christ.

The major reason I understand from those with the viewpoint that we can lose our salvation, is that believing we can't lose it will cause us to sin and fall away from God, taking advantage of grace. But this is unbiblical. It misunderstands that we are now new creatures in Christ, and that the Holy Spirit transforms our hearts to love God and want to serve Him: 2 Corinthians 5:16-17 says: "Therefore, from now on, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him thus no longer. 17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new."

And Hebrews 8:10-12 also talks about the heart transformation that occurs once we believe, quoting from Jeremiah 31, saying: "For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them. For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.”

And again, Romans 2:28-29 says, "For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh, but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God."

Those whom would try and use grace as a license for lawless deeds are showing that they are still enslaved to sin, which is evidence that they haven't been transformed by the regenerating power of the Holy Spirit. Romans 6:15-16 says, "What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?"

We have no need to fear that a true believer will ever fall away from the faith. The Bible talks of God's chastisement. In Hebrews 12:5-11, it talks about how God chastises His children, not for wrath, but for their own good:

"And you have forgotten the exhortation which speaks to you as to sons: 'My son, do not despise the chastening of the Lord, Nor be discouraged when you are rebuked by Him; For whom the Lord loves He chastens, And scourges every son whom He receives.” If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom a father does not chasten? But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons. Furthermore, we have had human fathers who corrected us, and we paid them respect. Shall we not much more readily be in subjection to the Father of spirits and live? For they indeed for a few days chastened us as seemed best to them, but He for our profit, that we may be partakers of His holiness. Now no chastening seems to be joyful for the present, but painful; nevertheless, afterward it yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it.'" (Hebrews 12:5-11)

3) The doctrine that you can lose your salvation results in a "work-oriented" approach to God.

I myself used to think that we could lose our salvation. I was plagued by constantly asking God to forgive me for my sins, thinking that if I didn't pray over every single sin that I would go to Hell. I also was afraid that I would fall away and turn away from the faith. But God showed me His great love, that we can't do anything to earn it. If we could do anything to earn our salvation on our own willpower, then it would negate the fact that it's all of grace, and not of works. We should be resting in Christ, not resting in ourselves. We should be resting in the finished atonement of Jesus on the cross; not on our own good deeds. If we rest in one, we cannot rest in the other, because Paul says in Romans 11:6, "And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work."

Romans 4:4 says, "Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt."

We cannot earn our salvation. No matter how many good deeds we do, no matter how hard we struggle, no matter how hard we try, we can pray every day, go to church every day, read the Bible every day, and no matter what -- it will amount to nothing. Our salvation is a free gift. Jesus, God in the flesh, came down from heaven and died, bearing the full wrath of God on the cross so that not a single drop would have to be poured out on us. Jesus was the atonement for our sins. We can't do anything to earn it. We receive it by faith, by putting our trust in Jesus and Himself alone, so that His righteousness will be imputed to us, and we can receive mercy.

My eyes have been opened so much recently, to the beauty and love of God that He has bestowed on us in Christ. Whenever I learn more of the amazing thing God has done for us in Christ, and think about being with Him forever, my heart is overjoyed, and I want to serve God even more eagerly. If we can lose our salvation, then that would mean that we would have to do something on our own, or in other words, "It's 99% Jesus but 1% me." And then we would be boasting in Heaven about how that 1% came from us.

No, but Jesus is the full atonement. It's 100% Jesus, start to finish. God does a work in us, and then He completes it. Philippians 1:6 says, "being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ;"

I wouldn't have it any other way! Can you imagine if it depended on us?

 

[farout]

Well done! Most who don't agree have their view and can support it with Scripture as well. First and foremost, is to show the love of Christ with those whom we don't agree. Showing kindness and respect is a key of being a Christian.

Those who believe you can loose your security in Christ, often point out that when you surrender to Christ you just can not live life of sin and be saved. I totally agree.

My saying is this; Faith that falters, had flaw from the first. To all this is an in house debate the core is, Jesus Christ is LORD, and there is no other way to the Father but by JESS CHRIST.

 

[Glow]

Well done! Most who don't agree have their view and can support it with Scripture as well. First and foremost, is to show the love of Christ with those whom we don't agree. Showing kindness and respect is a key of being a Christian.

Those who believe you can loose your security in Christ, often point out that when you surrender to Christ you just can not live life of sin and be saved. I totally agree.

My saying is this; Faith that falters, had flaw from the first. To all this is an in house debate the core is, Jesus Christ is LORD, and there is no other way to the Father but by JESS CHRIST.

I agree. Also, please pardon me if I seemed like I was attacking anyone. It was never my intention to be rude! I was a bit on edge as I was writing it because I felt deeply stressed over the fact that there's many people who think that you can lose your salvation. They're also probably living in constant turmoil and stress, and I want them to be set free!

I apologize if I seemed rude. I edited my first post a bit. I hope this will be a blessing to those who need it.

 

[NetChaplain]

I believe this is the most important concept concerning the gift of salvation. I think to suspect that one could loose such a gift is not mindful concerning God's omniscience, in that it would doubt that He knows the gift would always remain with the receiver. It's not as though He would not foreknow such an important issue.

 

[farout]

I agree. Also, please pardon me if I seemed like I was attacking anyone. It was never my intention to be rude! I was a bit on edge as I was writing it because I felt deeply stressed over the fact that there's many people who think that you can lose your salvation. They're also probably living in constant turmoil and stress, and I want them to be set free!

I apologize if I seemed rude. I edited my first post a bit. I hope this will be a blessing to those who need it.

You were not rude, good post!

 

[farout]

I believe this is the most important concept concerning the gift of salvation. I think to suspect that one could loose such a gift is not mindful concerning God's omniscience, in that it would doubt that He knows the gift would always remain with the receiver. It's not as though He would not foreknow such an important issue.

Perhaps what some think of s those who profess being saved but never change, and even do more sinful things. I call it false conversion.

 

[NetChaplain]

Perhaps what some think of s those who profess being saved but never change, and even do more sinful things. I call it false conversion.

James said one could say he has faith (profess--2:18) but not possess it (no true works to justify the presence of faith).

"Ye see then how that by works a man is justified (shown or displayed), and not by faith only" (v 24). Godly works will always eventually accompany faith, for if there is no true works, there is no true faith.

"For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead (nonexistent) also." (v 26).

There will be true works with true faith because there is no true Christian without true works (Phl 2:13).

 

[farout]

James said one could say he has faith (profess--2:18) but not possess it (no true works to justify the presence of faith).

"Ye see then how that by works a man is justified (shown or displayed), and not by faith only" (v 24). Godly works will always eventually accompany faith, for if there is no true works, there is no true faith.

"For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead (nonexistent) also." (v 26).

There will be true works with true faith because there is no true Christian without true works (Phl 2:13).

Net: excellent points! Nothing says it better than Scripture! Do you believe a Christian can backslide?

 

[NetChaplain]

Net: excellent points! Nothing says it better than Scripture! Do you believe a Christian can backslide?

Hi FO - Good question and I believe very significant to understand. The Scriptural use of the word "backslider" (used once in Scripture) is "cuwg," pronounced as "sug," Strong's Hebrew H5472.

It defines an apostate, which is one who leaves the appearance of being on the road to salvation, never to return (professor). These are those Scripture reveals concerning "drawing back" (Heb 10:39), because they never accepted the Gospel; they were not (never) of us (1 John 2:19).

Hebrew Lexicon :: H5472 (KJV)

 

[farout]

Hi FO - Good question and I believe very significant to understand. The Scriptural use of the word "backslider" (used once in Scripture) is "cuwg," pronounced as "sug," Strong's Hebrew H5472.

It defines an apostate, which is one who leaves the appearance of being on the road to salvation, never to return (professor). These are those Scripture reveals concerning "drawing back" (Heb 10:39), because they never accepted the Gospel; they were not (never) of us (1 John 2:19).

Hebrew Lexicon :: H5472 (KJV)

Our Pastor is solidly against the possibility of a Christian being able to backslide. He would say backsliding is impossible! Now no Christian is without sin, so it must be the definition of backsliding that is the issue.

So is it the amount of sin's person is involved in, or the length of tm a person continues in a sin or is it the type of sin a person commits? Can a believer commit adultery, steal, lie, cheat, use bad language, or so many other sin's? If a believer can't sin in just about any sin, then doesn't 1 John 1:9 address that? I am not saying a so called believer who now says he rejects Christ.

I look at King David, Peter, as examples of those who I see as backsliders. Your thoughts please?

 

[New Legacy]

Being unable to lose your salvation also supposes a lack of free will. If you cannot turn away God, then you are not free, no?

There is also the problem that many people live long lives as devout Christians bringing often bearing a lot of fruit, only to lose it. The typical response is that 'they were never saved'. If that is the case, then I don't know why this issue is so important to people. Either way, there is no guarantee of salvation: either you are saved or not and you don't know which one you really are.

I am also not away of any early writings on this issue. This theology seems to have developed more recently through the Calvinistic line of thinking.

 

[NetChaplain]

Being unable to lose your salvation also supposes a lack of free will. If you cannot turn away God, then you are not free, no?

There is also the problem that many people live long lives as devout Christians bringing often bearing a lot of fruit, only to lose it. The typical response is that 'they were never saved'. If that is the case, then I don't know why this issue is so important to people. Either way, there is no guarantee of salvation: either you are saved or not and you don't know which one you really are.

I am also not away of any early writings on this issue. This theology seems to have developed more recently through the Calvinistic line of thinking.

Hi NL - The reason why many are not sure about the doctrine of eternal security is because of deficient teaching and learning of the Scriptures, and Scripture deficiency results from the same problem any of any deficiency--lack of product. Most have not read the Scriptures enough so the Spirit can properly teach them (1 Cor 2:13), or they are not seeking wholeheartedly, and the only reason remaining would be due to not truly desiring regeneration in Christ. The more Scripture we are exposed to, the more potential there is for the Spirit to increase our understanding.

Until the Millennium there will be a continuation of this problem! This isn't a "departing from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils" (1 Tim 4:1), but just an immature learning of the believer.

The believer is to share "truth in love" (Eph 4:15), and may this always be to the believer, but those who choose to remain unsaved cannot receive love because if one does not desire to give it, one cannot receive it.

 

[farout]

Being unable to lose your salvation also supposes a lack of free will. If you cannot turn away God, then you are not free, no?

There is also the problem that many people live long lives as devout Christians bringing often bearing a lot of fruit, only to lose it. The typical response is that 'they were never saved'. If that is the case, then I don't know why this issue is so important to people. Either way, there is no guarantee of salvation: either you are saved or not and you don't know which one you really are.

I am also not away of any early writings on this issue. This theology seems to have developed more recently through the Calvinistic line of thinking.

May I suggest using scripture when taken in context, like a chapter before and after the verses you are using as your proof text might be worth while. Security in Jesus is a key assurance by Jesus Himself in John 10. Unless Jesus had hidden the real meaning of "no one can pluck you out of HIS hand" means just that. Why would Jesus assure us of our Security and not mean it?

The issue is are we a GENUINE FOLOWER ! You have no reason of security if you are not a GENUINE FOLWER. That seems to me very basic. You can't say you love your new RAM truck if you bought a FORD. Can't say your a Christian if you are not a FOLOWER, Can't say you have Security of the Believer if you are not a FOLLOWER and DO as Jesus says to do. We obey because we LOVE HIM.

 

[New Legacy]

Hi NL - The reason why many are not sure about the doctrine of eternal security is because of deficient teaching and learning of the Scriptures, and Scripture deficiency results from the same problem any of any deficiency--lack of product. Most have not read the Scriptures enough so the Spirit can properly teach them (1 Cor 2:13), or they are not seeking wholeheartedly, and the only reason remaining would be due to not truly desiring regeneration in Christ. The more Scripture we are exposed to, the more potential there is for the Spirit to increase our understanding.

I think the reason people don't believe it has nothing to do with 'lack of decent teaching and learning of the scriptures'. There are many people who subscribe to the theology that know very little about the bible and simply believe it because they were told it. There are some that may know the verses used to argue in support of the theology. They were told 'this is the right away to interpret the bible' and accept that interpretation and the interpretation of verses to support it. There are other people who simply like that viewpoint and accept it and may or may not take the time to learn which scriptures and how to interpret them to support their claim.
There are other people who know a lot about the bible, including how to interpret particular passages in support of that theology but simply don't for whatever reason.

Theologies are not a product of scripture, but man's ability to reason and interpret scripture.

Until the Millennium there will be a continuation of this problem! This isn't a "departing from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils" (1 Tim 4:1), but just an immature learning of the believer.

The believer is to share "truth in love" (Eph 4:15), and may this always be to the believer, but those who choose to remain unsaved cannot receive love because if one does not desire to give it, one cannot receive it.

Not sure how this relates to my post.

 

[New Legacy]

May I suggest using scripture when taken in context, like a chapter before and after the verses you are using as your proof text might be worth while.

Not sure what you mean here.

Security in Jesus is a key assurance by Jesus Himself in John 10. Unless Jesus had hidden the real meaning of "no one can pluck you out of HIS hand" means just that. Why would Jesus assure us of our Security and not mean it?

He is assuring us that no one can force us to leave Him. That is the not the same as lacking the ability to leave of your own will.
If Jesus told me that no one would ever hurt me, that doesn't mean I lose the ability to hurt myself.

The issue is are we a GENUINE FOLOWER ! You have no reason of security if you are not a GENUINE FOLWER. That seems to me very basic. You can't say you love your new RAM truck if you bought a FORD. Can't say your a Christian if you are not a FOLOWER, Can't say you have Security of the Believer if you are not a FOLLOWER and DO as Jesus says to do. We obey because we LOVE HIM.

Not sure how this relates.

 

[james1523]

Salvation has different aspects:
Salvation from eternal hellfire- this cannot be lost, because when a person is born again they are delivered from death to life, and become God's child. The lake of fire is for the devil and his children.
Salvation of the soul - this can be lost, e.g. being cast out into outer darkness, disobedient servants etc.
Salvation of the body - this can be lost. (Phil 3:11 - resurrection was something Paul strived to attain)

 

[NetChaplain]

I believe there is only one type of salvation--eternal salvation--there is no temporal salvation. One cannot be assured of salvation in this life, nor understand it sufficiently until this is Scripturally settled and comprehended.

Lacking the proper understanding here will result is misunderstanding and deficient learning in many doctrinal areas of Scripture, until the Spirit eventually resolves this in the believer.

 

[New Legacy]

Then there is no free will. If you cannot choose to walk away, then you have no free will.

I think some people find it comforting to think they cannot lose their salvation. The problem is that people do believe they are Christians, do good things, teach good things, and then lose their faith and die without. They are accused of never having believed. Let's say that is true- that means you might think you are saved when you aren't.

 

[Glow]

Not sure what you mean here.



He is assuring us that no one can force us to leave Him. That is the not the same as lacking the ability to leave of your own will.
If Jesus told me that no one would ever hurt me, that doesn't mean I lose the ability to hurt myself.



Not sure how this relates.

I think what he means is that you should post scripture when you're bringing up points, for clarification. After all, if the scripture says something is not true (or true), then it's correct, because the scripture is the infallible, authoritative word of God.

 

[Glow]

Then there is no free will. If you cannot choose to walk away, then you have no free will.

I think some people find it comforting to think they cannot lose their salvation. The problem is that people do believe they are Christians, do good things, teach good things, and then lose their faith and die without. They are accused of never having believed. Let's say that is true- that means you might think you are saved when you aren't.

Jesus teaches that there will be many people who think they are saved when they're not. Jesus said in Matthew 7:20-23:

“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!