The dangerous doctrine that we can lose our salvation.

[brakelite]

Born Again: me too! Bless your heart, sometimes I feel alone in trying to say The Most Dangerous Doctrine is Believing God can't keep you in His eternal protection of your salvation ! That's Jesus' promise in John 10. Jesus don't lie.....ever!!!!!!!

Hi farout, I presumes you are speaking of John 10:28,29 which states quite categorically that no-one can take us away from Jesus or His Father. As you say, Jesus cannot lie, He never has, nor ever will. Totally trustworthy, that is why in Him we can have so much confidence and hope.
Did you notice however verse 27? "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. " Now verse 28 says "And I give unto them eternal life....." Who is them? Certainly it is they who
1. Hear Jesus' voice....
2. Are known by Jesus....
3. and follow Him....

That last one is the clincher. Following Jesus wherever He goes and leads; obeying His voice; is up to us! It is only those who meet all the requirements, who meet the conditions, that are finally granted eternal life. Sure, those who know Jesus' voice, who hear Him, and follow Him, are safe, secure, and assured of eternal life. And right now I am sure that would apply to all who have contributed thus far to the discussion, but should one of us wander off, such as Israel did on many occasions and such as we are warned not to follow in their footsteps on as many occasions, then the guarantee of eternal life must surely be automatically rescinded, not because anyone has plucked us out of God's hand, but because we have allowed ourselves to go another way. We are no longer following the Shepherd.

Now sure, being the Shepherd we all know Him to be, He is not going to sit idly by while half His sheep wander all over the farm without any leadership or restraint or guidance. So Jesus is going to come looking, just as He did the first time looking for the lost sheep of Israel, but we have our freedom arout. We can choose to ignore Him and continue going our own way. And while I know through experience it is not easy to ignore Jesus when He is pleading for you to repent, for it is far far harder to be lost than it is to be saved, yet scripture does tell us farout that it is possible.

 

[RJ]

Hi farout, I presumes you are speaking of John 10:28,29 which states quite categorically that no-one can take us away from Jesus or His Father. As you say, Jesus cannot lie, He never has, nor ever will. Totally trustworthy, that is why in Him we can have so much confidence and hope.
Did you notice however verse 27? "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. " Now verse 28 says "And I give unto them eternal life....." Who is them? Certainly it is they who
1. Hear Jesus' voice....
2. Are known by Jesus....
3. and follow Him....

That last one is the clincher. Following Jesus wherever He goes and leads; obeying His voice; is up to us! It is only those who meet all the requirements, who meet the conditions, that are finally granted eternal life. Sure, those who know Jesus' voice, who hear Him, and follow Him, are safe, secure, and assured of eternal life. And right now I am sure that would apply to all who have contributed thus far to the discussion, but should one of us wander off, such as Israel did on many occasions and such as we are warned not to follow in their footsteps on as many occasions, then the guarantee of eternal life must surely be automatically rescinded, not because anyone has plucked us out of God's hand, but because we have allowed ourselves to go another way. We are no longer following the Shepherd.

Now sure, being the Shepherd we all know Him to be, He is not going to sit idly by while half His sheep wander all over the farm without any leadership or restraint or guidance. So Jesus is going to come looking, just as He did the first time looking for the lost sheep of Israel, but we have our freedom arout. We can choose to ignore Him and continue going our own way. And while I know through experience it is not easy to ignore Jesus when He is pleading for you to repent, for it is far far harder to be lost than it is to be saved, yet scripture does tell us farout that it is possible.

• John 10:28,29 which states quite categorically that no-one can take us away from Jesus or His Father. You state that you beleive in this passage, then you say you don't:baffle:?
• then the guarantee of eternal life must surely be automatically rescinded, not because anyone has plucked us out of God's hand, but because we have allowed ourselves to go another way. First you agree that know one can snatch you away from Jesus, then you say that you can snatch you away; you can't have it both ways.
• Don't confuse "falling away" to unbelief with pulling away, letting your fleshy sin- centered-self to give in to doubt. Remember, even John the Baptist, towards the end of his life and a year + in jail, sent a letter to Jesus doubting he was truly the Messiah.
• Please don't give in to works!

 

[eddieb]

I have respectfully just backed up my claim with ample verse to that one can't fall away, no matter it be a believer, a non-believer or a person who pretends to be a believer but is not; the outcome is still the same. I have nothing here to win because I have won salvation. Maybe you have an agenda but, finally we find something to agree to, it has gotten old!

you have indeed backed up your claim that one cant fall away. However, you have NOT backed up your claim the book of hebrews is to believers warning about pretenders.

here is a scripture to back up my claim that the book of hebrews is to jews converted to christianity wondering if they had made the right choice and were in danger of abandoning the faith, which is why the warning of apostasy is found in hebrews.

hebrews chapter 10:
32 Remember those earlier days after you had received the light, when you endured in a great conflict full of suffering. 33 Sometimes you were publicly exposed to insult and persecution; at other times you stood side by side with those who were so treated. 34 You suffered along with those in prison and joyfully accepted the confiscation of your property, because you knew that you yourselves had better and lasting possessions. 35So do not throw away your confidence; it will be richly rewarded.

36 You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised.

I am glad you have won salvation, but you tried to say the book of hebrews was talking about something that you so far wont back up. this is the bible study forum. do you care about the truth in Gods word or are you willing to just make claims for the whole world wide web to see and not follow thru with them? your unwillingness to back up your claim is speaking loudly to your position on how sincere you are about what you say about the word of God.

My agenda is truth.

 

[RJ]

you have indeed backed up your claim that one cant fall away. However, you have NOT backed up your claim the book of hebrews is to believers warning about pretenders.

here is a scripture to back up my claim that the book of hebrews is to jews converted to christianity wondering if they had made the right choice and were in danger of abandoning the faith, which is why the warning of apostasy is found in hebrews.

hebrews chapter 10:
32 Remember those earlier days after you had received the light, when you endured in a great conflict full of suffering. 33 Sometimes you were publicly exposed to insult and persecution; at other times you stood side by side with those who were so treated. 34 You suffered along with those in prison and joyfully accepted the confiscation of your property, because you knew that you yourselves had better and lasting possessions. 35So do not throw away your confidence; it will be richly rewarded.

36 You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised.

I am glad you have won salvation, but you tried to say the book of hebrews was talking about something that you so far wont back up. this is the bible study forum. do you care about the truth in Gods word or are you willing to just make claims for the whole world wide web to see and not follow thru with them? your unwillingness to back up your claim is speaking loudly to your position on how sincere you are about what you say about the word of God.

My agenda is truth.

eddieb,

• I respect your opinion / commentary....please accept mine. I don't agree with you and you don't agree with me.
• I have tried to explain, I think , in part, that the writer of Hebrews was talking to believers about non-believers, who were pretending to be believers.
• I have also tried to explain to exhaustion that, in fact, it does not really matter who he was talking about because non of these people can fall away to unbelief: not the believer and certainly ( for obvious reasons) not the other two. Peace please!
• This is my belief and you have yours, lets leave it at that and , at least, agree that Christ is lord and Savior!

 

[B-A-C]

I find it doubtful that "pretenders" would have taken part with the Holy Spirit.

Heb 6:4; For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
Heb 6:5; and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,

I wonder if non-believers (pretenders?) can be enlightened by God? Can they partake of the Holy Spirit?

Heb 6:6; and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.

along the same lines...

2 Pet 2:20; For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.
2 Pet 2:21; For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them.
2 Pet 2:22; It has happened to them according to the true proverb, "A DOG RETURNS TO ITS OWN VOMIT," and, "A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire."

Can a non-believer ( pretender? ) escape the defilement of the world on their own? If so, why would they have knowledge of the Lord?

Is it possible that even those who Jesus chooses sometimes choose to leave him?

Luke 10:1; Now after this the Lord appointed seventy others, and sent them in pairs ahead of Him to every city and place where He Himself was going to come.

These people either had power over demons on their own, or ( more likely ) the power was given to them by Jesus.

Luke 10:17; The seventy returned with joy, saying, "Lord, even the demons are subject to us in Your name."
Luke 10:18; And He said to them, "I was watching Satan fall from heaven like lightning.
Luke 10:19; "Behold, I have given you authority to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing will injure you.

Yet despite Jesus appointing them, and giving them power over demons, many of them left him. It seems he was back to the original twelve.

John 6:66; As a result of this many of His disciples withdrew and were not walking with Him anymore.
John 6:67; So Jesus said to the twelve, "You do not want to go away also, do you?"

In the parable of the sower, we see it is possible for some to believe "for a while", then fall away.

Luke 8:13; "Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away.

Even Paul says some will fall away. (He states the Holy Spirit says some will fall away).

1 Tim 4:1; But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons,

 

[B-A-C]

Luke 10:1; Now after this the Lord appointed seventy others, and sent them in pairs ahead of Him to every city and place where He Himself was going to come.

Interesting note on Luke 10. King James, The Message, The Amplified, The New American Standard all say seventy ( 70 ) pairs.
Yet the NIV, and the TalkJesus pop-up Bible say seventy-two ( 72 ) pairs.

 

[eddieb]

eddieb,

• I respect your opinion / commentary....please accept mine. I don't agree with you and you don't agree with me.
• I have tried to explain, I think(do you, because I can quote your posts from earlier to jog your memory) , in part,(but without any scripture only a claim) that the writer of Hebrews was talking to believers about non-believers, who were pretending to be believers.
• I have also tried to explain to exhaustion that, in fact, it does not really matter who he was talking about because non of these people can fall away to unbelief: not the believer and certainly ( for obvious reasons) not the other two. Peace please!
• This is my belief and you have yours, lets leave it at that and , at least, agree that Christ is lord and Savior!

the bold red text is the only concern i have. you only made the claim, and did not back it up. the issue of falling away or not falling away is at this point moot. stop mentioning it and back up your claim.

you debating weather one can or cannot fall away is NOT the issue. you did NOT back up your claim.

now for the blue text: it does matter because you tried to disprove what I said by claiming it was a warning about pretenders. and that was your basis for debate.
the truth is you made it up and now that I wont back down you have to try to avoid with whats called a "lawyers dodge" you wont even name your commentary.

Follow the rules please.

 

[RJ]

I find it doubtful that "pretenders" would have taken part with the Holy Spirit.

Heb 6:4; For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
Heb 6:5; and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,

I wonder if non-believers (pretenders?) can be enlightened by God? Can they partake of the Holy Spirit?

Heb 6:6; and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.

along the same lines...

2 Pet 2:20; For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.
2 Pet 2:21; For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them.
2 Pet 2:22; It has happened to them according to the true proverb, "A DOG RETURNS TO ITS OWN VOMIT," and, "A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire."

Can a non-believer ( pretender? ) escape the defilement of the world on their own? If so, why would they have knowledge of the Lord?

Is it possible that even those who Jesus chooses sometimes choose to leave him?

Luke 10:1; Now after this the Lord appointed seventy others, and sent them in pairs ahead of Him to every city and place where He Himself was going to come.

These people either had power over demons on their own, or ( more likely ) the power was given to them by Jesus.

Luke 10:17; The seventy returned with joy, saying, "Lord, even the demons are subject to us in Your name."
Luke 10:18; And He said to them, "I was watching Satan fall from heaven like lightning.
Luke 10:19; "Behold, I have given you authority to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing will injure you.

Yet despite Jesus appointing them, and giving them power over demons, many of them left him. It seems he was back to the original twelve.

John 6:66; As a result of this many of His disciples withdrew and were not walking with Him anymore.
John 6:67; So Jesus said to the twelve, "You do not want to go away also, do you?"

In the parable of the sower, we see it is possible for some to believe "for a while".

Luke 8:13; "Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away.

Even Paul says some will fall away. (He states the Holy Spirit says some will fall away).

1 Tim 4:1; But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons,

• I find it doubtful that "pretenders" would have taken part with the Holy Spirit.
  My point exactly!
• I wonder if non-believers (pretenders?) can be enlightened by God? Can they partake of the Holy Spirit?
  Of course God is capable of doing anything. I am not sure if one can just "taste" the Holy Spirit and not recieve him fully to salvation. Maybe that is what partake and taste means. I think in the case of the true believer falling away, then God's grace would not be sufficient and perfect. That is the reason for: it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame. It says to me that you can't just go in and out of salvation because to come back into repentance, Jesus would have to die on the cross and be shamed again and that is not going to happen.."once for all".
• Can a non-believer ( pretender? ) escape the defilement of the world on their own? If so, why would they have knowledge of the Lord?
  That is easy..even the Devil has the highest level of knowledge about Christ. Orthodox Jews have high regard and knowledge of Jesus but don't accept him as Messiah.
• In the parable of the sower, we see it is possible for some to believe "for a while".
  I love the Parable of the Sower, one of my all time favorites! I would say that anyone who never makes it to or is cultivate in "good soil" is never saved in the first place. If you're cultivate in lesser soil it is possible to grow stron at first but whither away or choked out because you had not been saved yet. In fact I have new armor for the next debate, the parable fits perfectly in the discussion of falling away!
• Even Paul says some will fall away. (He states the Holy Spirit says some will fall away). Matthew 7: 21-23 Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles? Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers
  

 

[Fragrant Grace]

This thread seems to have become a rather unfriendly debate.

I am closing the thread, for the time being, so that Chad and the moderator team can review it

 

[Chad]

@RJ and @eddieb

Take a break. You both are not getting anywhere at this point.

Ask yourself this now:
Are you glorifying GOD? Are you edifying the body? Are you preaching the Gospel to the lost?

None of this is evident in this thread. I'm closing it to avoid any further heated nonsense.