The dreaded "works" doctrine.

[Butch5]

Hello there, @BUTCH,

Your opening words reveal a difference in understanding between us. I do not follow your reasoning, it is alien to me.

I also prefer to confine my understanding of these things to what is said within the Word of God itself, and the Old Testament 'types' and 'shadows' should find their expression in the person and work of the Lord Jesus Christ in the writings of the New Testament. That is why I refer to the Old Testament as I do, to interpret the New.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

There is a difference in our understandings. In your post you essentially said that Satan was a jailor at the behest of God. So, when God turns man over to Satan, Satan is only doing a job. As you said, he doesn't have authority over man. In this scenario man is always under God's authority. So, where does a ransom come in? A ransom is paid to buy back something that has been taken. In your scenario man is never out of God's control, never taken from God, thus no ransom is needed. Also, as I pointed out a ransom isn't paid to oneself.

Irenaeus also confined his understanding to those things within the word of God. In addition to that he also had the teaching of a man who was taught by the apostle John.

 

[complete]

There is a difference in our understandings. In your post you essentially said that Satan was a jailor at the behest of God. So, when God turns man over to Satan, Satan is only doing a job. As you said, he doesn't have authority over man. In this scenario man is always under God's authority. So, where does a ransom come in? A ransom is paid to buy back something that has been taken. In your scenario man is never out of God's control, never taken from God, thus no ransom is needed. Also, as I pointed out a ransom isn't paid to oneself.

Irenaeus also confined his understanding to those things within the word of God. In addition to that he also had the teaching of a man who was taught by the apostle John.

Hello @Butch5,

As I have said, reference to the Old Testament types and shadows would go a long way to explaining these things for you. Such as that of the Kinsman Redeemer, and the mercy seat on the day of atonement in Leviticus 16.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[B-A-C]

But, that doesn't answer the question of why believers die? If Christ paid that price why do believers also pay it?

This is a deep subject (sorry I couldn't resist).
Many Christians believe we ( like God ) are triune beings. Made up of body, soul, and spirit.

The body dies. But Christians will get new bodies one day.
The soul is the battle ground - our minds. Our decisions, our ego's. Our will.
The Spirit lives forever... for everyone. That's a bit of a misnomer, and confusing, but I will explain.

In a sense.. no one ever really dies. Only our physical body does. (Now maybe it'll be different for the rapture, but that's another subject).
There is a saying in Christianity...
born once... die twice.
born twice... die once.

This mostly comes from John 3:3; and John 3:5;

...and this is closely related aniihilationism.... there is already a thread for that, so I don't want to get too side-tracked here.
But even unbelievers really never die .

There is a "second death" that happens after the physical body dies. Rev 2:11; Rev 20:6; Rev 20:14; ... but primarily Rev 21:8;
This is the Lake of Fire. You don't really get annihilated in the Lake of Fire. But it's not exactly what I would call "living" either.

But aniihilationism breaks the whole concept of people living forever, (or dying forever as the case may be)
So it makes the concept of "ownership" of death difficult to explain to people who believe this.

So to answer the question above... believers "don't" pay it. Believers "don't" die.

 

[Butch5]

Hello @Butch5,

As I have said, reference to the Old Testament types and shadows would go a long way to explaining these things for you. Such as that of the Kinsman Redeemer, and the mercy seat on the day of atonement in Leviticus 16.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

I'm aware of them. As I asked before, can they be understood differently than you're understanding them?

 

[complete]

'For by grace are ye saved through faith;
and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Not of works, lest any man should boast.
For we are His workmanship,
created in Christ Jesus unto good works,
which God hath before ordained
that we should walk in them.'
(Eph. 2:8-10)

Hello B-A-C,

Do you believe that your OP has been addressed in the manner that you intended it to be?

I have looked back at the first three entries that completed your OP again today, and it would seem that you believe essentially what the first verses you quote maintain (quoted above). Stressing however the necessity that good works should follow salvation.

In those verse it makes clear that we are His workmanship created in Christ Jesus unto good works which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. If that is the case, then it must surely be fully accomplished, simply because it is His work.

In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[complete]

I'm aware of them. As I asked before, can they be understood differently than you're understanding them?

Hello @Butch5,

Perhaps you would show me how you perceive them?

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Butch5]

Hello @Butch5,

Perhaps you would show me how you perceive them?

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Hi Chris,

I can't tell you how to perceive them. I just asked if they could be understood differently.

 

[Butch5]

Some food for thought. Often I find that we as Christians tend to read a passage of Scripture, understand it a certain way and say the Bible says, (insert what we believe). We don't look to see if maybe it could be understood differently. Often it can be.

 

[complete]

Hi Chris,

I can't tell you how to perceive them. I just asked if they could be understood differently.

Hello @Butch5,

I was not asking you to tell me how I should perceive them, but how you yourself do? For you appear to consider that they could be understood differently; whereas it has never entered my head to evaluate what is written in such passages as Leviticus 16, by using my own understanding. For it is what it is.

What does that passage tell you about the necessity for atonement, and to whom the price is paid?

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Butch5]

Hello @Butch5,

I was not asking you to tell me how I should perceive them, but how you yourself do? For you appear to consider that they could be understood differently; whereas it has never entered my head to evaluate what is written in such passages as Leviticus 16, by using my own understanding.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Hi Chris,
I perceive them from the Ransom view perspective. When I held to Penal Atonement I perceived them from that perspective. Now I view them from another perspective. The question I asked myself is, which perspective fits better with Scripture. There have been three primary perspectives through history, Ransom, Satifaction, and Penal. I think most Christians hold the Penal model simply because that's all they've ever known about. I'd submit many if not most don't even know there are other models out there. When held the Penal Model it was because it was the only one I knew of. When I looked at the history of Atonement models I became aware of the other two. After looking into them I began to see the differences and I began to see the problems. I concluded that Penal Atonement doesn't fit with the Scriotures.

 

[B-A-C]

Hello B-A-C,

Do you believe that your OP has been addressed in the manner that you intended it to be?

I have looked back at the first three entries that completed your OP again today, and it would seem that you believe essentially what the first verses you quote maintain (quoted above). Stressing however the necessity that good works should follow salvation.

In those verse it makes clear that we are His workmanship created in Christ Jesus unto good works which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. If that is the case, then it must surely be fully accomplished, simply because it is His work.

LOL, we got a little off-track with penalism vs propitiation vs ransom a long time ago, and that's OK.

However I wouldn't say "should follow salvation". I would say MUST follow salvation, it is an absolute requirement when a person is able. I would also stress "follow" salvation, doing works before you are saved has no value.
His work is finished, but ours in not. Salvation is a synergism, a covenant that two parties participate in. Both sides are required to hold up their end of the agreement. Obedience is an absolute necessity.

 

[complete]

Hi Chris,
I perceive them from the Ransom view perspective. When I held to Penal Atonement I perceived them from that perspective. Now I view them from another perspective. The question I asked myself is, which perspective fits better with Scripture. There have been three primary perspectives through history, Ransom, Satisfaction, and Penal. I think most Christians hold the Penal model simply because that's all they've ever known about. I'd submit many if not most don't even know there are other models out there. When held the Penal Model it was because it was the only one I knew of. When I looked at the history of Atonement models I became aware of the other two. After looking into them I began to see the differences and I began to see the problems. I concluded that Penal Atonement doesn't fit with the Scriptures.

Hello @Butch5,

This is a disappointment to me: I asked you a question regarding one portion of Scripture, in reply#149, in order to progress from the general to the specific. For it is all too easy to hide behind generalities.

I read my Bible, and was totally unaware of these three perspectives until you introduced them.

Apparently there are seven such theories in existence:- 7 Theories of the Atonement Summarized - Stephen D. Morrison

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[complete]

LOL, we got a little off-track with penalism vs propitiation vs ransom a long time ago, and that's OK.

However I wouldn't say "should follow salvation". I would say MUST follow salvation, it is an absolute requirement when a person is able. I would also stress "follow" salvation, doing works before you are saved has no value.
His work is finished, but ours in not. Salvation is a synergism, a covenant that two parties participate in. Both sides are required to hold up their end of the agreement. Obedience is an absolute necessity.

Hello B-A-C,

In his epistles, Paul speaks of 'the obedience of faith' doesn't he? Is this what you believe is meant by such a term? In his opening words to the believers at Rome, he introduces himself and the gospel that he was called unto:-

'Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ,
.. called to be an apostle,
.... separated unto the gospel of God (Which He had promised afore by His prophets in the holy scriptures,)
...... Concerning His Son Jesus Christ our Lord,
........ Which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
.......... And declared to be the Son of God with power,
............ according to the spirit of holiness,
............ by the resurrection from the dead:
By Whom we have received grace and apostleship,
for obedience to the faith among all nations,
for His Name:'

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[complete]

Hello B-A-C,

Paul also closes that epistle with reference to the obedience of faith in Romans 16:25-26.

'Now to Him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel,
.. and the preaching of Jesus Christ,
.... according to the revelation of the mystery,
...... which was kept secret since the world began,
But now is made manifest,
.. and by the scriptures of the prophets,
.... according to the commandment of the everlasting God,
...... made known to all nations
........ for the obedience of faith:'

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[complete]

'By Whom we have received grace and apostleship,
.. for obedience to the faith among all nations,
.... for His Name:
...... Among whom (the nations) are ye also
........ the called of Jesus Christ:
To all that be in Rome,
.. beloved of God,
.... called to be saints:
...... Grace to you and peace
........ from God our Father,
.......... and the Lord Jesus Christ.
(Rom 1:5-7)

Hello again @B-A-C,

This is my third response in relation to the words, 'the obedience of faith' found in the epistle to the Romans. How are we to understand these words?
A comparison of Romans 1:8b and 16:19a suggests the true meaning:-

'your FAITH is spoken of throughout the whole world.'(Rom 1:8b)
'your OBEDIENCE is come abroad unto all men.' (Rom. 16:19a)

* Also in Romans 10:14 & 16:-

'and how shall they BELIEVE in Him of Whom they have not heard? ' (Rom 10:14)
'But they have not all OBEYED the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath BELIEVED our report?

* Faith obedience is contrasted with legal obedience, The one is grace, the other works. The sphere of the one is spirit the other flesh. Christ is the Head of the one, Moses of the other. This faith obedience was for all nations, and for His Name.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[B-A-C]

* Faith obedience is contrasted with legal obedience, The one is grace, the other works.

Yes, you could break it up that way if you want to. But the bottom line ... no matter what the motivation is... obedience is necessary.

But you hit upon an important point I think a lot of people miss.
Faith is tied directly to obedience, you can't have one without the other.

John 3:36; "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

belief is contrasted with disobedience.

Heb 3:18; And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who were disobedient?
Heb 3:19; So we see that they were not able to enter because of unbelief.

disobedience = unbelief.

It would be interesting to study this further.
I think I could find another example or two.

 

[complete]

'And you hath He quickened,
.. who were dead in trespasses and sins;
.... Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world,
...... according to the prince of the power of the air,
........ the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience;
.......... Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh,
............ fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind;
.............. and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
But God, Who is rich in mercy,
.. for His great love wherewith He loved us,
.... Even when we were dead in sins,
...... hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved )
........ And hath raised us up together,
.......... and made us sit together
............ in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
.............. That in the ages to come
................ might shew the exceeding riches of His grace
.................. in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
For by grace are ye saved through faith;
.. and that not of yourselves:
.... it is the gift of God:
...... Not of works, lest any man should boast.
........ For we are His workmanship,
.......... created in Christ Jesus unto good works,
............ which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.'
(Eph 2:1-10)

Praise God!

In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Br. Bear]

Greetings,

may i add a little?

regarding faith and obedience,

Faith is tied directly to obedience, you can't have one without the other.

here i see "faith without works is dead" but i do also wish to question that 'ultimatum'.

Remember Jonah? From what i remember, he was OK with the LORD being the LORD and he (Jonah) believed or 'faithed' that the LORD wanted him (Jonah) to go to Nineveh and tell them the message of repentance (?) BUT, he (Jonah) didn't, In other words, he disobeyed or was disobedient.
Was the LORD happy about that? Was there a consequence for Jonah?
What we do see however, is the faithfulness of the LORD. Simply because Jonah was going the opposite direction, did not sway the LORD.

A couple of little bites to consider.


Bless you ....><>

 

[Br. Bear]

@Butch5

Greetings,

I know that we had better not derail the thread but i would like to consider something you have written about, namely, the penal thing.

When push comes to shove, Israel were very much under a penal code and system.

The Law had to be satisfied of it was to be a law. Law is never a one way agenda. There are rules and consequences which are usually delivered as penalty.
With the Children under a tutor, they were kept in line by the 'legal' system.
Their Legal/Penal system also separated them from the Gentiles. If you wanted to 'immigrate' you had to follow the rules of the land (like nearly everywhere, today)

Something happened when Jesus was crucified. Recall the Curtain. He also said, "It is Finished".

The Law was paid in full, once and for all and now that wall of separation is broken down, both metaphorically/spiritually and physically....

For He is our peace, Who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
Ephesians 2:14

A little about that wall:
===
Both the Bible and the Jewish historian Josephus speak of a Temple sanctuary located at the center of the Herodian complex, with a holy place and the holy of holies where Jewish sinners could come near to the presence of God, make sacrifice for sin, and fulfill their vows and legal obligations. From these sources we also read of the existence of an altar located just outside the holy place, and that this entire inner sanctuary was surrounded by massive walls and doors.

Outside this sanctuary, but located within the enormous Temple complex, was the “Court of the Gentiles” where non-Jewish visitors could enter but were forbidden to go no further. It was here that an actual barrier existed separating Jews from non-Jews. Josephus himself verified the existence of this wall of separation when he said: “Proceeding … toward the second court of the Temple, one found it surrounded by a stone balustrade, three cubits high and of exquisite workmanship; in this at regular intervals stood slabs giving warning, some in Greek, others in Latin characters, of the law of purification, to wit that no foreigner was permitted to enter the holy place” (Wars 5.5.2).

from: A WALL OF SEPARATION
===

Before the crucifixion of our Lord, the ability to have relationship of any form with the LORD was kept for the Children of Israel.

Can i also introduce Melchizedek here? We read about Abraham and Melchizedek. This was prior to the first and celebrated Passover.Now, on this side of the Cross, we return to that Order, or shall it be better said, that Order has returned, and Jesus Christ is Priest of that Order.

However, had the Penal requirements not been met, then the present age would not have been ushered in. Only a sinless Lamb of God could be a sacrifice to end sacrifices according to the law.

Now, He did this through obedience, while we were yet sinners, we are told.

Something about believing and faith turns a key to the kingdom door.


Not sure if all this makes any sense but see how you go with it.


Bless you ....><>


The LORD hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.
Psalm 110:4
see also Hebrews 5:6

We have this hope as an anchor for the soul,
......firm and secure.
It enters the inner sanctuary behind the curtain, where Jesus our forerunner has entered on our behalf.

He has become a high priest forever
in the order of Melchizedek.
Hebrews 6:19-20

 

[Downunder]

1Samual 15:22 And Samuel said, “Has the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to listen than the fat of rams.

Exodus 19:5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey my voice and keep my covenant, you shall be my treasured possession among all peoples, for all the earth is mine;
19:6 and you shall be to me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.’ These are the words that you shall speak to the people of Israel.” [cited by Peter]

Hosea 6:6 For I desire steadfast love and not sacrifice, the knowledge of God rather than burnt offerings.
6:7 But like Adam they transgressed the covenant; there they dealt faithlessly with me.

Proverbs 21:3 To do righteousness and justice is more acceptable to the LORD than sacrifice.

Acts 5:32 And we are witnesses to these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him.

Hebrews 5:8 Although he [Jesus] was a son, he learned obedience through what he suffered.
5:9 And being made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey him,