The dreaded "works" doctrine.

[Butch5]

So we are back to Universalism.

No, I explained it in the post to Chris. In the Ransome theory mankind is ransomed back to God. However, man still has his sin issue to be addressed. If he turns to Christ for forgiveness he is forgiven if he does not his sins aren't forgiven.

 

[B-A-C]

mankind is ransomed back to God. However, man still has his sin issue to be addressed.

We are getting a little closer in agreement. Christians definitely MUST repent. But does everyone belong to Jesus?

1Jn 2:2; and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

1Jn 3:8; the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil.
1Jn 3:10 By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.

1Jn 3:8;
(NLT) But when people keep on sinning, it shows that they belong to the devil, who has been sinning since the beginning. But the Son of God came to destroy the works of the devil.
(NIrV) Those who do what is sinful belong to the devil. They are just like him. He has been sinning from the beginning. But the Son of God came to destroy the devil's work.
(ISV) The person who practices sin belongs to the evil one, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason that the Son of God was revealed was to destroy what the devil has been doing.
(CEV) Anyone who keeps on sinning belongs to the devil. He has sinned from the beginning, but the Son of God came to destroy all that he has done.

We are either sons of God, or sons of someone else. It isn't what we believe that determines this, it's whether we are obedient to God or not.

Eph 5:6; Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.
Col 3:6; For it is because of these things that the wrath of God will come upon the sons of disobedience,
Tit 1:16; They profess to know God, but by their deeds they deny Him, being detestable and disobedient and worthless for any good deed.

 

[Admon Mikha'el]

I think we may have to consider Romans 2:6-11 in this discussion.

We cannot work to be saved however, I think we miss a lot in scripture if we think God shall not judge us by our works once we stand before him after this life. Proverbs 24:12, Ecclesiastes 12:14
The unbelievers shall be judged before the great white throne of judgment . Revelation 20:12 That is not where the Christians shall be judged. However, we shall be judged and for our works none the less. “I am he who searches hearts and minds, and I will repay each of you according to your deeds” (Revelation 2:23). And our rewards shall be resultant of that judgment.
Romans 14
1 Corinthians 3
2 Corinthians 5:10

There is such a thing that we will go through...Judgment for rewards....Research this in the Word. You could start here...
1 Corinthians 3:12-15

Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, each man’s work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man’s work. If any man’s work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward.read more.
Colossians 3:23-24

Whatever you do, do your work heartily, as for the Lord rather than for men, knowing that from the Lord you will receive the reward of the inheritance. It is the Lord Christ whom you serve.

 

[Cactus Kitten]

There is such a thing that we will go through...Judgment for rewards....Research this in the Word. You could start here...
1 Corinthians 3:12-15

Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, each man’s work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man’s work. If any man’s work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward.read more.
Colossians 3:23-24

Whatever you do, do your work heartily, as for the Lord rather than for men, knowing that from the Lord you will receive the reward of the inheritance. It is the Lord Christ whom you serve.

Yes. Thank you for adding those scriptures to my posting.

 

[complete]

Hi Chris,

Let me challenge one of your preconceptions. Can we establish from Scripture that God's Justice "demands" atonement?

Yes Christ is the mediator between God and man. He has ransomed, or bought back mankind, thus He can be the mediator between God and man.

One of the biggest issues with the satisfaction/Penal models of the atonement is that they make man the enemy of God rather than the Devil. Under these models the Devil really plays no role in anything. He's really just a secondary character in the battle between God and man. In the Ransom model the Devil is a primary player. In the ransom model there is a battle between God and the Devil over the the future of man kind. Why did the Devil tempt Eve in the garden? Why did the Devil seek to test Job?

Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came among them to present himself before the LORD. And the LORD said to Satan, “From where have you come?” Satan answered the LORD and said, “From going to and fro on the earth, and from walking up and down on it.” And the LORD said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, who fears God and turns away from evil? He still holds fast his integrity, although you incited me against him to destroy him without reason.” Then Satan answered the LORD and said, “Skin for skin! All that a man has he will give for his life. But stretch out your hand and touch his bone and his flesh, and he will curse you to your face.” And the LORD said to Satan, “Behold, he is in your hand; only spare his life.”

Hello @Butch5,

So, as you say, there are two schools of thought in regard to atonement.

(1) Satisfaction or Penal atonement theory.
(2) Ransom theory.

* These are both 'theories', yes?

I read the following in a book I have regarding the word 'Ransom' and it's usage within Scripture:-

'A word concerning the modern use of the word ransom may be timely. A traveller, for example, may have been taken prisoner by bandits, and held to ransom. His relatives, while abominating the whole evil system, nevertheless pay up, out of love for their kindred. This aspect, in early days, led to the idea that the death of Christ actually paid ransom to the Devil! About the third century Origen calls such a doctrine 'blasphemous folly', and Gregory of Nazianzus said that it is an outrage to suppose that the robber could receive God Himself in payment for us. No such idea is resident in the Scriptural words translated 'ransom', and the preacher and teacher should be at pains to make this very clear to his hearers.'

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Butch5]

Hello @Butch5,

So, as you say, there are two schools of thought in regard to atonement.

(1) Satisfaction or Penal atonement theory.
(2) Ransom theory.

* These are both 'theories', yes?

I read the following in a book I have regarding the word 'Ransom' and it's usage within Scripture:-

'A word concerning the modern use of the word ransom may be timely. A traveller, for example, may have been taken prisoner by bandits, and held to ransom. His relatives, while abominating the whole evil system, nevertheless pay up, out of love for their kindred. This aspect, in early days, led to the idea that the death of Christ actually paid ransom to the Devil! About the third century Origen calls such a doctrine 'blasphemous folly', and Gregory of Nazianzus said that it is an outrage to suppose that the robber could receive God Himself in payment for us. No such idea is resident in the Scriptural words translated 'ransom', and the preacher and teacher should be at pains to make this very clear to his hearers.'

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Hi Chris,
With all die respect, its someone's opinion. There was no evidence even presented. If we look at Scripthre to see how the word was used, it's pretty clear what it meant.

But again, we have to look at history. This is what was originally believed. Where did those taught by the apostles get this idea?

I also see a false preconception in the statement you presented. He said,

"Gregory of Nazianzus said that it is an outrage to suppose that the robber could receive God Himself in payment for us."

In the Ransom theory it's not God Himself that is the Ransom, it is Jesus God's Son.

 

[complete]

Hi Chris,
With all die respect, its someone's opinion. There was no evidence even presented. If we look at Scripthre to see how the word was used, it's pretty clear what it meant.

But again, we have to look at history. This is what was originally believed. Where did those taught by the apostles get this idea?

I also see a false preconception in the statement you presented. He said,

"Gregory of Nazianzus said that it is an outrage to suppose that the robber could receive God Himself in payment for us."

In the Ransom theory it's not God Himself that is the Ransom, it is Jesus God's Son.

Hello @Butch5,

Yes, it is someone's opinion, expressed at the end of a discourse on the word 'Ransom' as used in Scripture. Yet you could say the same about both 'theories', yes?

* Surely it is the Old Testament types and shadows that should give the proof regarding this subject, and not the word of those whose writings were not included in the Bible record.

(Matthew 20:28 & Mark 10:45) :- 'Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give His life a ransom for many.'
(1 Timothy 2:6):- 'Who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.'
---------------------------

(1 Peter 1:18-19):- 'Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:'

* This takes us to the Old Testament type of the sacrificial Lamb and a ransom for a soul. To Whom were the Old Testament sacrifices made to?
---------------------------

(Hosea 13:14):- I will ransom them from the power of the grave; I will redeem them from death:
O death, I will be thy plagues; O grave, I will be thy destruction: repentance shall be hid from mine eyes.

------------------------------

These are just scattered thoughts, I'm sorry, but I hope they have a collective testimony to give.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[complete]

Hello @Butch5,

Why is there a need for a 'Mediator', or an 'Intercessor' before God? If God is not the One to be appeased?

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Butch5]

Hello @Butch5,

Yes, it is someone's opinion, expressed at the end of a discourse on the word 'Ransom' as used in Scripture. Yet you could say the same about both 'theories', yes?

* Surely it is the Old Testament types and shadows that should give the proof regarding this subject, and not the word of those whose writings were not included in the Bible record.

(Matthew 20:28 & Mark 10:45) :- 'Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give His life a ransom for many.'
(1 Timothy 2:6):- 'Who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.'
---------------------------

(1 Peter 1:18-19):- 'Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:'

* This takes us to the Old Testament type of the sacrificial Lamb and a ransom for a soul. To Whom were the Old Testament sacrifices made to?
---------------------------

(Hosea 13:14):- I will ransom them from the power of the grave; I will redeem them from death:
O death, I will be thy plagues; O grave, I will be thy destruction: repentance shall be hid from mine eyes.

------------------------------

These are just scattered thoughts, I'm sorry, but I hope they have a collective testimony to give.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Hi Chris,

Yes, we do see types. But, were they paid to God? Or, were they instituted by God to teach Israel?

 

[complete]

Hi Chris,

Yes, we do see types. But, were they paid to God? Or, were they instituted by God to teach Israel?

Hello @Butch5,

Both I should think.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Butch5]

Hello @Butch5,

Why is there a need for a 'Mediator', or an 'Intercessor' before God? If God is not the One to be appeased?

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

My question would be, is He to be appeased? Where does that idea come from?

How does one alienated from God approach Him without a mediator?

 

[Butch5]

Hello @Butch5,

Both I should think.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Why both? Is there anything in Scripture that states God requires payment for sin?
Paul said the blood of sheep and goats could never take away sins. It would seem then that these weren't a payment but rather a teaching tool for Israel.

 

[complete]

My question would be, is He to be appeased? Where does that idea come from?

How does one alienated from God approach Him without a mediator?

Hello @Butch5,

Yes, I agree that 'appeased' is not a word used in Scripture in relation to God, though it has the meaning of 'satisfying'. As to where that 'idea' came from? The Old Testament sacrifices, which were types of the true, were for this purpose surely?

Romans 8:26-27 and Romans 8:34 speak of the intercessory role played by both the Lord Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit, on behalf of the saints, during this time. Praying on our behalf. However the mediator role is as an intermediary. As you say it is vital for the one who is seeking after God.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[complete]

Why both? Is there anything in Scripture that states God requires payment for sin?
Paul said the blood of sheep and goats could never take away sins. It would seem then that these weren't a payment but rather a teaching tool for Israel.

Hello @Butch5,

Without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sins (Hebrews 9:22).

In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[B-A-C]

My question would be, is He to be appeased? Where does that idea come from?

Perhaps Isa 53:10-11;

Is there anything in Scripture that states God requires payment for sin?

Perhaps Rom 6:23;

Paul said the blood of sheep and goats could never take away sins. It would seem then that these weren't a payment but rather a teaching tool for Israel.

Well many don't believe Paul wrote Hebrews, but still it does say that.
In fact Hebrews chapters 7-10; discuss this. It wasn't so much ateaching tool (I suppose it could taken that way)
as symbolism.

There were animal 'blood' sacrifices for sin in the OT, there was a 'Lamb' that was sacrificed in the NT
There were priests you confessed your sins, and high priest that priests confessed their sins to in the OT, there is a high priest in the NT, and all believers are now 'priests' in a sense.
The temple, the ark of the covenant, (which had the 10 commandments inside) the mercy seat, are all copies of the same thing in heaven.
All the animals slaughtered in the OT didn't save anyone, they were just place-holders (symbols) of the ultimate sacrifice in the NT. ( Heb 10:4; )
If you never read the book of Hebrews, a lot of this doesn't make sense.

Jesus's blood 'IS' the new covenant. ( Matt 26:28; Mark 14:24; Luke 22:20; 1Cor 11:25; Heb 12:24; )
His blood covered what the blood of millions of dead animals couldn't.

 

[Butch5]

Hello @Butch5,

Yes, I agree that 'appeased' is not a word used in Scripture in relation to God, though it has the meaning of 'satisfying'. As to where that 'idea' came from? The Old Testament sacrifices, which were types of the true, were for this purpose surely?

Romans 8:26-27 and Romans 8:34 speak of the intercessory role played by both the Lord Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit, on behalf of the saints, during this time. Praying on our behalf. However the mediator role is as an intermediary. As you say it is vital for the one who is seeking after God.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Where the sacrifices to appease or satisfy God?

Hear the word of the LORD, you rulers of Sodom! Give ear to the teaching of our God, you people of Gomorrah! “What to me is the multitude of your sacrifices? says the LORD; I have had enough of burnt offerings of rams and the fat of well-fed beasts; I do not delight in the blood of bulls, or of lambs, or of goats. “When you come to appear before me, who has required of you this trampling of my courts? Bring no more vain offerings; incense is an abomination to me. New moon and Sabbath and the calling of convocations— I cannot endure iniquity and solemn assembly. Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hates; they have become a burden to me; I am weary of bearing them. When you spread out your hands, I will hide my eyes from you; even though you make many prayers, I will not listen; your hands are full of blood.

It would seem to me that those types weren't really appealing to satisfying God.

 

[B-A-C]

Hear the word of the LORD, you rulers of Sodom! Give ear to the teaching of our God, you people of Gomorrah! “What to me is the multitude of your sacrifices? says the LORD; I have had enough of burnt offerings of rams and the fat of well-fed beasts; I do not delight in the blood of bulls, or of lambs, or of goats. “When you come to appear before me, who has required of you this trampling of my courts? Bring no more vain offerings; incense is an abomination to me. New moon and Sabbath and the calling of convocations— I cannot endure iniquity and solemn assembly. Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hates; they have become a burden to me; I am weary of bearing them. When you spread out your hands, I will hide my eyes from you; even though you make many prayers, I will not listen; your hands are full of blood.

In the OT when you sinned, an animal had to be sacrificed, there were certain sacrifices that were offered once a year, but most were sin based.
If you committed a small sin, then a dove was sufficient, 'medium' sins were covered by goats and lambs. Large sins were covered by bulls and heifers.
These couldn't just be any animal. They have to be perfect. They couldn't be old, or sick or lame. They had to be the best you had. And if you didn't own any animals
they were expensive to buy.

So God is saying in all these verses, it's great you are doing all these sacrifices according to the law. But what I really wanted was for you to obey the law, and not even have to do most of these sacrifices.
It's much the same in the New testament. he passage you gave goes along with these. Matt 9:13; Mark 12:33; and Matt 12:7;
(also see Isa 1:13-14: )

It's all fine a good that Jesus died for your sins, but what He really wants, is for us to obey the commandments and love one another.
He wasn't sacrificed just so we could go on sinning. That kind of defeats the purpose.

 

[Butch5]

In the OT when you sinned, an animal had to be sacrificed, there were certain sacrifices that were offered once a year, but most were sin based.
If you committed a small sin, then a dove was sufficient, 'medium' sins were covered by goats and lambs. Large sins were covered by bulls and heifers.
These couldn't just be any animal. They have to be perfect. They couldn't be old, or sick or lame. They had to be the best you had. And if you didn't own any animals
they were expensive to buy.

So God is saying in all these verses, it's great you are doing all these sacrifices according to the law. But what I really wanted was for you to obey the law, and not even have to do most of these sacrifices.
It's much the same in the New testament. he passage you gave goes along with these. Matt 9:13; Mark 12:33; and Matt 12:7;
(also see Isa 1:13-14

It's all fine a good that Jesus died for your sins, but what He really wants, is for us to obey the commandments and love one another.

Hi B-A-C,

I agree. My point was that those sacrifices didn't appease or satisfy God. He said He hated them. I believe it's because they were a constant reminder of what was going to happen to His Son in the future.

 

[complete]

Where the sacrifices to appease or satisfy God?

Hear the word of the LORD, you rulers of Sodom! Give ear to the teaching of our God, you people of Gomorrah! “What to me is the multitude of your sacrifices? says the LORD; I have had enough of burnt offerings of rams and the fat of well-fed beasts; I do not delight in the blood of bulls, or of lambs, or of goats. “When you come to appear before me, who has required of you this trampling of my courts? Bring no more vain offerings; incense is an abomination to me. New moon and Sabbath and the calling of convocations— I cannot endure iniquity and solemn assembly. Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hates; they have become a burden to me; I am weary of bearing them. When you spread out your hands, I will hide my eyes from you; even though you make many prayers, I will not listen; your hands are full of blood.

It would seem to me that those types weren't really appealing to satisfying God.

Hello @Butch5,

The context plays a big part in the tone of these words. It you read Leviticus 1:4 for example when the instruction was first given, and references within Exodus, then you will see it's purpose.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[complete]

Hello @Butch5,

I will simply praise God that He has accomplished salvation through the person and work of His only Begotten Son, that we, through simple faith in Him, may be delivered from the power of sin, which is death. For it cannot hold us. We will be raised to life again by the operation of the power of God. Praise His Holy Name!

If I try, by my own understanding, to explain what is written concerning the various aspects of this wondrous work, expressed in such words as, 'atonement', 'redemption,' 'Justification', 'sanctification' etc., I will mar the beauty and wonder of the glory of God. So, I will simply receive His word by faith, and trust Him to fulfill His promises, in and through Christ Jesus, in Whom I live and move and have my being.

As for man's theories and man's opinion, including my own, I will not give them houseroom.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris