The "elect"

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Hi Chris,

That's why I asked you to explain what you meant.

My understanding of Ephesians 1:3-12 isn't wrong. I'd be happy to walk through it with you if you'd like. I'm not sure what you mean by, "if that is what you do with Scripture". What I do is read it in context. if we look at the opening verses, Paul uses first and second personal plural pronouns, "we, us, our", and "you, your". This indicates that he is referencing two groups of people. We also see this in his opening statement.

Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus: (Eph. 1:1 KJV)

I've written a commentary on this passage of Scripture which explains it in more detail. Ephesians 1

'Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God,
to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:
Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,
Who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
According as He hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world,
that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love:
Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to Himself,
according to the good pleasure of His will,
To the praise of the glory of His grace, wherein He hath made us accepted in the Beloved.
In Whom we have redemption through His blood,
the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace; wherein He hath abounded toward us
in all wisdom and prudence; Having made known unto us the mystery of His will,
according to His good pleasure which He hath purposed in Himself:
That in the dispensation of the fulness of times He might gather together in one all things in Christ,
both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in Him:
(Eph 1:1-11)

Hello @Butch5,

Thank you for this further explanation.

Yes the epistle is addressed to 'the saints' (holy - set apart unto God) and 'faithful in Christ Jesus'. The 'saint' (1:1) is one by redeeming grace, and are such by their 'calling' (1:4), and that this calling is realized by the finished work of Christ on their behalf (5:27), and that , while their sainthood in the first instance derives from what God has done rather than what they are in themselves, there is such a thing, subsequently, as a manner of life that 'becometh' saints (5:3). The 'faithful' is one who, having been raised with Christ, seeks to walk worthy of the high calling that they have been called into.

* I have looked at your commentary in relation to these opening verses, and though I can understand why you should say what you do in relation to the first person pronouns within it, I believe that the change from 'we' and 'us' to 'you' and 'your' is simply an aside, referring to his listeners directly, before praying for them.

'In Whom (Christ) ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth,
the gospel of your salvation:
in Whom also after that ye believed,
ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,'

* For he includes them in the 'we' and 'us' by the use of the word 'our' in the following verse:-

'Which is the earnest of our inheritance
until the redemption of the purchased possession,
unto the praise of His glory.'

* Those whom He was addressing were not excluded from what was said earlier in terms of 'we' and us', but were themselves included in that. The use of' you' and 'ye' being used only in reference to their own salvation by grace and the sealing of the Holy Spirit.

* There is no divide between Jew and Gentile intended as you suggest, but total inclusion of His listeners with himself in the calling, and associated blessings listed in the 'we' and 'us' section from verses 1-12. For his listeners he prays that they will receive the spirit of wisdom and revelation required to fully appreciate and enter into the truth of what he had just written in those verses.

* It is this vital difference between your understanding and mine, in regard to interpretation, which could inhibit the possibility of our being able to discuss Scriptural matters further.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

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Hi Chris,

You said that the Olive Tree isn't mentioned after Romans. I said if the basis for your statement was that the Olive Tree isn't mentioned after Romans that your claim would be an inference.

Hello @Butch5,

Yes, it is an inference, in as much as an inference is a conclusion made upon reason and deduction, by comparing Scripture with Scripture, also taking into account Israel's history in regard to what occurred in AD70, when Titus destroyed Jerusalem.

Paul was converted in AD32; two years after the crucifixion in AD30; Cornelius was converted in AD41; the Jerusalem council on circumcision referred to by Paul in Galatians 2:1 took place in AD50; Paul arrived in Rome and was imprisoned in AD62, and the letter to the Ephesians was also written following divine revelation concerning the Mystery in that year. Paul died in AD67 in the same year as Peter. Three years later Israel were scattered. in AD70

AD30 - AD40 = 40 years when the door was open for Israel to come to repentance.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

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Eklektos G1588
From G1586; meaning select; and by implication favourite
Translated: - chosen, elect.

Hello Butch5,

The word ' Elect' is found in the prison epistles of Paul, - [written after receiving the revelation of God concerning the Mystery, that Gentiles should be fellow-heirs, and of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ by the gospel (Ephesians 3:6), and Paul given the grace 'to preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ; and to make all see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, Who created all things by Jesus Christ.' (Ephesians 3:8-9)] - in Titus 1:1; 2 Timothy 2:10; Colossians 3:12. These were written to Gentile believers, for Christ was 'in' (or among) them, their hope of glory. In 'the new man' there is 'neither Jew nor Greek, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, Bond nor free,: but Christ is all and in all' (Colossians 3:11).

'Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved,
bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;'
(Col 3:12)

' Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes,
that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.'
(2 Timothy 2:10)

'Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ,
according to the faith of God's elect,
and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;'
(Tit 1:1)

* The believers at Colossi were addressed as 'the saints and faithful brethren in Christ'.
Timothy is addressed by Paul, as his own 'son' in the faith, Titus also.
Paul refers to himself to Titus as an Apostle of Jesus Christ according to the faith of God's elect.

* The common factor in relation to all of these believers was that they were 'in Christ' in whom there is neither Jew nor Greek, for Christ is all in all.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

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Eklektos G1588
From G1586; meaning select; and by implication favourite
Translated: - chosen, elect.
Usage:-

Matthew 20:16 (chosen); 22:14 (chosen); 24:22, 24, 31 (elect)
Mark 13:20, 22, 27 (elect)
Luke 18:7 (elect); 23:35 (chosen)
Romans 8:33 (elect); 16:13 (chosen)
Colossians 3:12 (elect)
1 Timothy 5:21 (elect angels)
2 Timothy 2:10 (elect)
Titus 1:1 (elect)
1 Peter 1:2(elect); 2:4 (chosen), 6 (elect), 9 (chosen)
2 John 1:1, 13 (elect)
Revelation 17:14 (chosen)

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
our risen and glorified
Saviour, Lord and Head.
Chris

 

[Sue D.]

Interjecting a thought -- have been reading this thread. Re: the olive tree and who is being grafted on or off. The 'tree' is salvation by faith -- The Jews rejected Jesus Christ as their Promised Messiah -- they were cut off the tree. Salvation was ten extended to the Gentiles -- whomever of the Gentiles are of the elect are 'grafted in' by salvation. The rest of the Jews Will be grafted back in because they are the Children of Israel -- the Jews. That will take place in the future. We All become born again believers through Faith in Jesus Christ. Jews are still Jews / Gentiles still Gentiles -- but when they accept Jesus Christ as personal Savior -- they become born again believers.

God the Father is the Only one who knows who His elect are.

 

[UncleD]

Hello my fellow believers in Christ. Here is some input I would like you to consider. I apologise for the length but this gives a better picture of the ELECT:

WHO ARE THE ELECT?

Mat 4:18 And Jesus, walking by the sea of Galilee, saw two brethren, Simon called Peter, and Andrew his brother, casting a net into the sea: for they were fishers. Mat 4:19 And he saith unto them, Follow me, and I will make you fishers of men. Mat 4:20 And they straightway left their nets, and followed him. Mat 4:21 And going on from thence, he saw other two brethren, James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother, in a ship with Zebedee their father, mending their nets; and he called them. Mat 4:22 And they immediately left the ship and their father, and followed him.

Mar 3:13 And he goeth up into a mountain, and calleth unto him whom he would: and they came unto him. Mar 3:14 And he ordained twelve, that they should be with him, and that he might send them forth to preach,

Mat 10:1 And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease. Mat 10:2 Now the names of the twelve apostles are these; The first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother; Mat 10:3 Philip, and Bartholomew; Thomas, and Matthew the publican; James the son of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddaeus; Mat 10:4 Simon the Canaanite, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed him. Mat 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: Mat 10:6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Mat 10:7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.

In the above passages from scripture we see the twelve disciples that Jesus called. Jesus personally ordained them to go out and preach (Mar 3:14). He specifically said to them that they were not to go into the way of the Gentiles or into and Samaritan city but to go to the lost sheep of Israel and preach saying that the kingdom of heaven is at hand. Note: Jesus had not yet been crucified. He had not yet purchased men for God. His Body had not yet been broken nor had He shed His Blood and thereby bring in the New Covenant therefore they could not go and preach to the gentiles too. Only once His work on the cross was complete could they then go into the gentile nations. We also see in Rom 1:16 that the gospel is for the Jew first then the Gentile. When Jesus said His final words “It is finished” He was saying that the work of redemption and salvation was complete for both the Jews and the gentiles. He came and accomplished what God would have Him accomplish through the nation of Israel as their Messiah (Jn 1:41: 4:25) and through them they would go and teach the nations. We see in Jn 4:25 Jesus speaking to the Samaritan woman something He had told the disciples not to do but Jesus was showing that He had come for both Jew and Gentile and all that believe would be saved.

We all know that Jesus was crucified and had accomplished all that God had set out to do through Him. He was buried and raised again to the righthand of the Father. He, being the first fruits of the resurrection, (1 Cor 15:20) showed both Jew and Gentile the way that they ought to go. He would be the door and the gate through whom we will enter into the kingdom of heaven (Jn 14:6). We are therefore commanded to take up our cross and follow Him. We must live the crucified life, laying down our lives for the Gospel through which God would draw people to Christ Jesus and ultimately salvation.

THE GREAT COMMISSION

After His resurrection He appeared to the remaining eleven apostles and gave them the great commission.

Mat 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Mat 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

The Great commission, found in Matt 28:18-20, was given to the eleven remaining apostles. We see that salvation is of the Jews (Jn 4:22) so Jesus had given it to the Jews first so that they could fulfil Gods original intention, that is, to go teach all the nations! We therefore see that everything that Jesus had taught and commanded them over the years of His ministry here on earth would have to be taken out into all the nations and taught to them. So, we see that the New Testament has the foundation of the twelve Apostles and the prophets with Jesus Christ as the Chief Corner Stone (Eph 2:20; 1 Cor 15:3-4; Lk 24: emphasis 25-27+44). There is no better place to show this than in Revelation 21 with emphasis on verse 14.

Now, did the apostles fulfil this God given commission? YES, they did. We see it in the book of acts and throughout the epistles. But, you may say, Paul was not part of the original twelve apostles. Paul was not part of the original twelve apostles but He was called and taught by Jesus Christ Himself (Gal 1: emphasis verses 11-24) and was “appointed an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God”. Most of his epistles start with this fact as an introduction. He was an Apostle to the gentiles (Eph 3).

Since the foundation of the apostles was laid, we, the church, which consists of Jews and Gentiles, are built up on it. All those called by the preaching of the Gospel and who respond and are born again are the elect of God first for the Jew and then the gentile. Consider these verses Paul was given by the teaching of the Holy Spirit:

Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. Gal 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

The law, given to Israel, was our schoolmaster to bring us to Christ, that we (Jew and Gentile) may be justified by faith in the Messiah, His finished work on the cross.

We are all children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. Why Christ Jesus and not Jesus Christ? Because Christ Jesus speaks of Jesus Christ as resurrected and seated at the right hand of the Father in heaven and therefore, we too are children of that resurrection.

We, both Jew and Gentile, who are born again of the Spirit of God, have put on Christ.

There is neither Jew nor Greek …. For we are all one in Christ.

Since we are in Christ we are then of Abrahams seed (note: singular). We are all, both Jew and Gentile, children of God through that seed.

With all this in mind then let us have a look at the word elect. I use the International Standard Bible Encyclopaedia (ISBE) for this (any emphasis mine):

Elect

ē̇-lekt´: That is, “chosen,” “selected.” In the Old Testament the word represents derivatives of בּחר, bā̄ḥar, elegit; in the New Testament ἐκλεκτός, eklektóš. It means properly an object or objects of selection. This primary meaning sometimes passes into that of “eminent,” “valuable,” “choice”; often Thus as a fact, in places where the King James Version uses “chosen” (or “elect”) to translate the original (e.g. Isa_42:1; 1Pe_2:6). In the King James Version “elect” (or “chosen”) is used of Israel as the race selected for special favor and to be the special vehicle of Divine purposes (so 4 times in Apocrypha, Tobit and Ecclus); of the great Servant of Yahweh (compare Luk_23:35; the “Christ of God, his chosen”); compare eminent saints as Jacob, Moses, Rufus (Rom_16:13); “the lady,” and her “sister” of 2 Jn; of the holy angels (1Ti_5:21); with a possible suggestion of the lapse of other angels. Otherwise, and prevalently in the New Testament, it denotes a human community, also described as believers, saints, the Israel of God; regarded as in some sense selected by Him from among men, objects of His special favor, and correspondingly called to special holiness and service. See further under ELECTION. In the English versions “elect” is not used as a verb: “to choose” is preferred; e.g. Mar_13:20; Eph_1:4.

1Pe 2:6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded. This verse speaks of Jesus being the elect, He is the first fruits! This ties in with Is 42:1- Isa 42:1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles. Therefore, Jesus Christ being the elect of God is the first fruits and all those in Him are chosen out of the world to be one in Christ and co-heirs with Him. Since He was the first elect, all those who believe in Him, and are in Him, are Gods elect (chosen). Luke 23:35 shows that the Jews knew this: Luk 23:35 And the people stood beholding. And the rulers also with them derided him, saying, He saved others; let him save himself, if he be Christ, the chosen of God.

Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, Eph 1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. Eph 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace.

Paul writing to the Ephesians, as he was the Apostle to the Gentiles, said himself, by the Holy Spirit, that He has chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world. By doing this he had predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ Himself. We are therefor accepted in the beloved.

MATHEW 24, MARK 13 AND LUKE 21

Mat_24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.Mat_24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Mat_24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Mar_13:20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days. Mar_13:22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect. Mar_13:27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.Luk_18:7 And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them?

Most of the above verses have to do with the last days and refer to the elect. We have seen that the initial disciples were Jews. They were appointed as Apostles. The Apostles were given the Great Commission and told to go out and teach the nations, teaching them to observe all that Jesus had commanded them. The Olivette Discourse was part and parcel of what Jesus had taught them and so this would have formed part of their teachings as they were lead by the Holy Spirit into all the nations. We know that Paul was appointed an Apostle and also taught on these things (Gal 1:12). 1 and 2 Thessalonians are an example. Jude talked of the last days. Peter spoke of the last days. Paul warned in his teachings of what would happen in the last days. They were fulfilling the great commission to go and teach the nations and so those who believe the Gospel and are born again by the Spirit of God are chosen and become part of the elect, first for the Jew then for the Gentile.

So, when Paul says in 2 Thessalonians 2 the following he did not say that this is for the Jews only as you will not be here because the resurrection and rapture will take place before this happens. He was taking from the prophets and explaining what will take place in the future and that the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together unto Him would not take place until there is a falling away (which we see happening already) and that the Antichrist, that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition. Who exalts himself (Is 14:12-14; Ezek 28; Daniel)

2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 2Th 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 2Th 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 2Th 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 2Th 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Looking at the above it is obvious that when Jesus was referring to the elect that He was referring to both the Jews and the Gentiles who would believe in the messiah and become co-heirs with Him and will be in the rapture, resurrection, the millennial reign and the new heaven and new earth to come. Amen

 

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Interjecting a thought -- have been reading this thread. Re: the olive tree and who is being grafted on or off. The 'tree' is salvation by faith -- The Jews rejected Jesus Christ as their Promised Messiah -- they were cut off the tree. Salvation was ten extended to the Gentiles -- whomever of the Gentiles are of the elect are 'grafted in' by salvation. The rest of the Jews Will be grafted back in because they are the Children of Israel -- the Jews. That will take place in the future. We All become born again believers through Faith in Jesus Christ. Jews are still Jews / Gentiles still Gentiles -- but when they accept Jesus Christ as personal Savior -- they become born again believers.

God the Father is the Only one who knows who His elect are.

Hi @Sue D,

Thank you for expressing that thought. However, why I do not believe the Olive tree to be 'salvation by faith' as you say, is because the Olive Tree is said to have branches, likened to believing branches and unbelieving branches. The unbelieving branches are broken of, and gentile believers are grafted in, in order to bring life to that ailing tree, as is done by the olive dresser in the field. Israel was the ailing tree, it was failing to acknowledge the Lord Jesus Christ as their Messiah and King, and there was no sign of them repenting nationally. It was the hope that by grafting in the believing gentiles that they would be made jeal'ous and seek to emulate them.

If it were a figure of 'salvation by faith' there would be no unbelieving branches and all would be wonderful, there would be fruit in abundance without any necessity for the breaking off of branches.

God the Father is indeed the Only One Who knows who His elect are: for He alone knows man's hearts. Yet in regard to the truth of God's word, and what it has to say concerning election, there is no reason why any of us should be ignorant of what company of believers, or what individuals within those pages are called either 'elect' or 'chosen'. For today we now have the means at our fingertips to search out the usage of these words in Scripture and know with certainty just what it teaches us about this, don't we? Taking into account the context of the passage in which the words are used in order to know 'who' and 'why' and 'for what purpose' that Divine electing and choosing was done.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Gregoryp]

Rather than argue with recalcitrant,s try reading this, it explains everything very well. God chose us before we were even born, its up to us to heed his call. Even Among Well-Meaning Christians, ‘Born Again’ Is Often Misunderstood

 

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'Behold My servant, whom I uphold;
Mine elect, in Whom My soul delighteth;
I have put My spirit upon Him:
He shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.'
(Isa 42:1)

Hello there,

The supreme elect one is Christ Himself, isn't it, as this prophetic word above shows.

Having seen how the word translated 'elect' in the New Testament is distributed, I am now looking up the word 'Elect' in the Old Testament:-

H972- Bâchı̂yr (baw-kheer}
From H977; meaning select
Translated: - choose, chosen one, elect.m
Usage:-

'O ye seed of Israel His servant, ye children of Jacob, His chosen ones.' (1 Chronicles 16:13)

'I have made a covenant with My Chosen, I have sworn unto David My servant,
Thy seed will I establish for ever, and build up thy throne to all generations. ( Psalm 89:3-4)

' O ye seed of Abraham His servant, ye children of Jacob His chosen. (Psalm 105:6)

'For He remembered His holy promise, and Abraham His servant.
And He brought forth His people with joy, and His chosen with gladness: ( Psalm 105:42-43)

'Remember me, O LORD, with the favour that thou bearest unto Thy People: O visit me with Thy salvation;' (Psalm 106:4-5)
That I may see the good of Thy Chosen, that I may rejoice in the gladness of Thy Nation, that I may glory with Thine Inheritance.

'Therefore He said that He would destroy them, had not Moses His chosen stood before Him in the breach,
to turn away His wrath, lest He should destroy them. ' (Psalm 106:23)

'Behold My Servant, whom I uphold; Mine Elect, in whom My soul delighteth; I have put My spirit upon
Him: He shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.' (Isaiah 42:1)

'The beast of the field shall honour Me, the dragons and the owls: because I give waters in the wilderness,
and rivers in the desert, to give drink to My People, My Chosen.
This People have I formed for Myself; they shall shew forth My praise.' (Isaiah 43:20-21)

'And I will give thee the treasures of darkness, and hidden riches of secret places,
that thou mayest know that I, the LORD, which call thee by thy name, am the God of Israel.
For Jacob My servant's sake, and Israel Mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name:
I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known Me.'
(Isaiah 45:3-4)

'And I will bring forth A Seed out of Jacob, and out of Judah an inheritor of My mountains:
and Mine Elect shall inherit it, and My servants shall dwell there.' (Isaiah 65:9)

'And ye shall leave your name for a curse unto My Chosen:
for the Lord GOD shall slay thee, and call His servants by another name:
That he who blesseth himself in the earth shall bless himself in the God of truth;
and he that sweareth in the earth shall swear by the God of truth;
because the former troubles are forgotten, and because they are hid from mine eyes. ' ( Isaiah 65:15-16)

'They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat:
for as the days of a tree are the days of My People, and Mine Elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.'
-------------------------------------------------------------

Also:-
H977 - bâchar (baw-khar}
A primitive root; properly to try, that is, (by implication) select
Translated: - acceptable, appoint, choose (choice), excellent, join, be rather, require.
Total KJV occurrences: 169.
--------------------------------------------------------------

* I have been blessed in looking up these references, I hope you will read them and be blessed too, as you see that Moses, David, the Nation of Israel and the Messiah, our Lord Jesus Christ, now risen and glorifed are among God chosen.

Praise His Holy Name!

In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

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Hello my fellow believers in Christ. Here is some input I would like you to consider. I apologise for the length but this gives a better picture of the ELECT:

WHO ARE THE ELECT?

Mat 4:18 And Jesus, walking by the sea of Galilee, saw two brethren, Simon called Peter, and Andrew his brother, casting a net into the sea: for they were fishers. Mat 4:19 And he saith unto them, Follow me, and I will make you fishers of men. Mat 4:20 And they straightway left their nets, and followed him. Mat 4:21 And going on from thence, he saw other two brethren, James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother, in a ship with Zebedee their father, mending their nets; and he called them. Mat 4:22 And they immediately left the ship and their father, and followed him.

Mar 3:13 And he goeth up into a mountain, and calleth unto him whom he would: and they came unto him. Mar 3:14 And he ordained twelve, that they should be with him, and that he might send them forth to preach,

Mat 10:1 And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease. Mat 10:2 Now the names of the twelve apostles are these; The first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother; Mat 10:3 Philip, and Bartholomew; Thomas, and Matthew the publican; James the son of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddaeus; Mat 10:4 Simon the Canaanite, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed him. Mat 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: Mat 10:6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Mat 10:7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.

In the above passages from scripture we see the twelve disciples that Jesus called. Jesus personally ordained them to go out and preach (Mar 3:14). He specifically said to them that they were not to go into the way of the Gentiles or into and Samaritan city but to go to the lost sheep of Israel and preach saying that the kingdom of heaven is at hand. Note: Jesus had not yet been crucified. He had not yet purchased men for God. His Body had not yet been broken nor had He shed His Blood and thereby bring in the New Covenant therefore they could not go and preach to the gentiles too. Only once His work on the cross was complete could they then go into the gentile nations. We also see in Rom 1:16 that the gospel is for the Jew first then the Gentile. When Jesus said His final words “It is finished” He was saying that the work of redemption and salvation was complete for both the Jews and the gentiles. He came and accomplished what God would have Him accomplish through the nation of Israel as their Messiah (Jn 1:41: 4:25) and through them they would go and teach the nations. We see in Jn 4:25 Jesus speaking to the Samaritan woman something He had told the disciples not to do but Jesus was showing that He had come for both Jew and Gentile and all that believe would be saved.

We all know that Jesus was crucified and had accomplished all that God had set out to do through Him. He was buried and raised again to the righthand of the Father. He, being the first fruits of the resurrection, (1 Cor 15:20) showed both Jew and Gentile the way that they ought to go. He would be the door and the gate through whom we will enter into the kingdom of heaven (Jn 14:6). We are therefore commanded to take up our cross and follow Him. We must live the crucified life, laying down our lives for the Gospel through which God would draw people to Christ Jesus and ultimately salvation.

THE GREAT COMMISSION

After His resurrection He appeared to the remaining eleven apostles and gave them the great commission.

Mat 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Mat 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

The Great commission, found in Matt 28:18-20, was given to the eleven remaining apostles. We see that salvation is of the Jews (Jn 4:22) so Jesus had given it to the Jews first so that they could fulfil Gods original intention, that is, to go teach all the nations! We therefore see that everything that Jesus had taught and commanded them over the years of His ministry here on earth would have to be taken out into all the nations and taught to them. So, we see that the New Testament has the foundation of the twelve Apostles and the prophets with Jesus Christ as the Chief Corner Stone (Eph 2:20; 1 Cor 15:3-4; Lk 24: emphasis 25-27+44). There is no better place to show this than in Revelation 21 with emphasis on verse 14.

Now, did the apostles fulfil this God given commission? YES, they did. We see it in the book of acts and throughout the epistles. But, you may say, Paul was not part of the original twelve apostles. Paul was not part of the original twelve apostles but He was called and taught by Jesus Christ Himself (Gal 1: emphasis verses 11-24) and was “appointed an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God”. Most of his epistles start with this fact as an introduction. He was an Apostle to the gentiles (Eph 3).

Since the foundation of the apostles was laid, we, the church, which consists of Jews and Gentiles, are built up on it. All those called by the preaching of the Gospel and who respond and are born again are the elect of God first for the Jew and then the gentile. Consider these verses Paul was given by the teaching of the Holy Spirit:

Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. Gal 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

The law, given to Israel, was our schoolmaster to bring us to Christ, that we (Jew and Gentile) may be justified by faith in the Messiah, His finished work on the cross.

We are all children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. Why Christ Jesus and not Jesus Christ? Because Christ Jesus speaks of Jesus Christ as resurrected and seated at the right hand of the Father in heaven and therefore, we too are children of that resurrection.

We, both Jew and Gentile, who are born again of the Spirit of God, have put on Christ.

There is neither Jew nor Greek …. For we are all one in Christ.

Since we are in Christ we are then of Abrahams seed (note: singular). We are all, both Jew and Gentile, children of God through that seed.

With all this in mind then let us have a look at the word elect. I use the International Standard Bible Encyclopaedia (ISBE) for this (any emphasis mine):

Elect

ē̇-lekt´: That is, “chosen,” “selected.” In the Old Testament the word represents derivatives of בּחר, bā̄ḥar, elegit; in the New Testament ἐκλεκτός, eklektóš. It means properly an object or objects of selection. This primary meaning sometimes passes into that of “eminent,” “valuable,” “choice”; often Thus as a fact, in places where the King James Version uses “chosen” (or “elect”) to translate the original (e.g. Isa_42:1; 1Pe_2:6). In the King James Version “elect” (or “chosen”) is used of Israel as the race selected for special favor and to be the special vehicle of Divine purposes (so 4 times in Apocrypha, Tobit and Ecclus); of the great Servant of Yahweh (compare Luk_23:35; the “Christ of God, his chosen”); compare eminent saints as Jacob, Moses, Rufus (Rom_16:13); “the lady,” and her “sister” of 2 Jn; of the holy angels (1Ti_5:21); with a possible suggestion of the lapse of other angels. Otherwise, and prevalently in the New Testament, it denotes a human community, also described as believers, saints, the Israel of God; regarded as in some sense selected by Him from among men, objects of His special favor, and correspondingly called to special holiness and service. See further under ELECTION. In the English versions “elect” is not used as a verb: “to choose” is preferred; e.g. Mar_13:20; Eph_1:4.

1Pe 2:6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded. This verse speaks of Jesus being the elect, He is the first fruits! This ties in with Is 42:1- Isa 42:1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles. Therefore, Jesus Christ being the elect of God is the first fruits and all those in Him are chosen out of the world to be one in Christ and co-heirs with Him. Since He was the first elect, all those who believe in Him, and are in Him, are Gods elect (chosen). Luke 23:35 shows that the Jews knew this: Luk 23:35 And the people stood beholding. And the rulers also with them derided him, saying, He saved others; let him save himself, if he be Christ, the chosen of God.

Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, Eph 1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. Eph 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace.

Paul writing to the Ephesians, as he was the Apostle to the Gentiles, said himself, by the Holy Spirit, that He has chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world. By doing this he had predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ Himself. We are therefor accepted in the beloved.

MATHEW 24, MARK 13 AND LUKE 21

Mat_24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.Mat_24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Mat_24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Mar_13:20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days. Mar_13:22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect. Mar_13:27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.Luk_18:7 And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them?

Most of the above verses have to do with the last days and refer to the elect. We have seen that the initial disciples were Jews. They were appointed as Apostles. The Apostles were given the Great Commission and told to go out and teach the nations, teaching them to observe all that Jesus had commanded them. The Olivette Discourse was part and parcel of what Jesus had taught them and so this would have formed part of their teachings as they were lead by the Holy Spirit into all the nations. We know that Paul was appointed an Apostle and also taught on these things (Gal 1:12). 1 and 2 Thessalonians are an example. Jude talked of the last days. Peter spoke of the last days. Paul warned in his teachings of what would happen in the last days. They were fulfilling the great commission to go and teach the nations and so those who believe the Gospel and are born again by the Spirit of God are chosen and become part of the elect, first for the Jew then for the Gentile.

So, when Paul says in 2 Thessalonians 2 the following he did not say that this is for the Jews only as you will not be here because the resurrection and rapture will take place before this happens. He was taking from the prophets and explaining what will take place in the future and that the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together unto Him would not take place until there is a falling away (which we see happening already) and that the Antichrist, that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition. Who exalts himself (Is 14:12-14; Ezek 28; Daniel)

2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 2Th 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 2Th 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 2Th 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 2Th 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Looking at the above it is obvious that when Jesus was referring to the elect that He was referring to both the Jews and the Gentiles who would believe in the messiah and become co-heirs with Him and will be in the rapture, resurrection, the millennial reign and the new heaven and new earth to come. Amen

Hello @UncleD,

Thank you for your time and patience in compiling this entry. I have read it through, and like the Bereans of Act 17:11 have received the word with all readiness of mind, and will now search the scriptures to ensure that what you have said concerning these things are so. Which I am sure you yourself would recommend.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
our risen and glorified
Saviour, Lord and Head
Chris

 

[Sue D.]

@complete -- a comment -- concern -- your last sentence in post #111. "I hope you will read them and be blessed, too, as you see that Moses, David and the Nation of Israel and the Messiah, the Lord Jesus Christ , now risen and glorified are among God's chosen." Isn't that putting Jesus Christ, even being risen and glorified, on the same level as Moses and David? Which they are not. Jesus Christ is the Son of God which is the only reason He Can be the risen and glorified Savior.

 

[Butch5]

'Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God,
to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:
Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,
Who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
According as He hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world,
that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love:
Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to Himself,
according to the good pleasure of His will,
To the praise of the glory of His grace, wherein He hath made us accepted in the Beloved.
In Whom we have redemption through His blood,
the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace; wherein He hath abounded toward us
in all wisdom and prudence; Having made known unto us the mystery of His will,
according to His good pleasure which He hath purposed in Himself:
That in the dispensation of the fulness of times He might gather together in one all things in Christ,
both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in Him:
(Eph 1:1-11)

Hello @Butch5,

Thank you for this further explanation.

Yes the epistle is addressed to 'the saints' (holy - set apart unto God) and 'faithful in Christ Jesus'. The 'saint' (1:1) is one by redeeming grace, and are such by their 'calling' (1:4), and that this calling is realized by the finished work of Christ on their behalf (5:27), and that , while their sainthood in the first instance derives from what God has done rather than what they are in themselves, there is such a thing, subsequently, as a manner of life that 'becometh' saints (5:3). The 'faithful' is one who, having been raised with Christ, seeks to walk worthy of the high calling that they have been called into.

* I have looked at your commentary in relation to these opening verses, and though I can understand why you should say what you do in relation to the first person pronouns within it, I believe that the change from 'we' and 'us' to 'you' and 'your' is simply an aside, referring to his listeners directly, before praying for them.

'In Whom (Christ) ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth,
the gospel of your salvation:
in Whom also after that ye believed,
ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,'

* For he includes them in the 'we' and 'us' by the use of the word 'our' in the following verse:-

'Which is the earnest of our inheritance
until the redemption of the purchased possession,
unto the praise of His glory.'

* Those whom He was addressing were not excluded from what was said earlier in terms of 'we' and us', but were themselves included in that. The use of' you' and 'ye' being used only in reference to their own salvation by grace and the sealing of the Holy Spirit.

* There is no divide between Jew and Gentile intended as you suggest, but total inclusion of His listeners with himself in the calling, and associated blessings listed in the 'we' and 'us' section from verses 1-12. For his listeners he prays that they will receive the spirit of wisdom and revelation required to fully appreciate and enter into the truth of what he had just written in those verses.

* It is this vital difference between your understanding and mine, in regard to interpretation, which could inhibit the possibility of our being able to discuss Scriptural matters further.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

HI Chris,

I believe it's pretty clear in the Scriptures. As I pointed out the use of the pronouns shows two groups. We also have the opening statement to the saints and the faithful. Two groups. In the commentary I showed where Paul actually tells us who these two groups are.

11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; (Eph. 2:11-19 KJV)

Here Paul begins to draw a distinction between Jew and Gentile. He goes on to explain how they become one in Christ. However, notice what he says. 'You being in time past Gentiles', here he tells us that the "you" group is the Gentiles. This is the you group from chapter one. Then he identifies the other group, the Circumcision in the flesh made with hands. That was the Jews. He goes on to explain how the Gentiles were aliens, strangers from the covenants of promise, and without God. Contrast that to what he said about the "we, us, our" group. Of them he said,

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. (Eph. 1:3-12 KJV)

Paul told the Gentiles that they were without God, yet he said of the "we, us, our, group, that God had blessed them with all spiritual blessings. He said the Gentiles were without God in the world, yet of the "we, us, our" group he said God had chosen them before the foundation of the world. He said the Gentiles were without God, yet of the "we, us, our", group he said they had been predestined to adoption. To whom did the adoption pertain? It was Israel. Paul states that plainly in Romans 9.

3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises; (Rom. 9:3-4 KJV)

Paul said that the Gentiles were without God, yet of the 'we, us, our,' group he said that God had abounded toward they in all wisdom and prudence. He said God had made His will known to them, that was the Jews. God didn't present Himself to the Gentiles. Paul also said this group had obtained an inheritance. The Jews did obtain an inheritance, they received a land inheritance. The Gentiles didn't receive any inheritance from God. The did receive a down payment on a future inheritance, but none in the past. And then the final verse shows us who this group is. Paul says it was, we who first trusted, or actually, before hoed, in the Christ. Who had previously hoped in the Christ? It was the Jews, not the Gentiles. The Jews had been hoping for their Christ for a long time. There's just no way these two groups can be the same people. There are just too many differences.

He continues saying that the Gentiles who were far off, have been brought near. He says that Christ has broken down the middle wall of partition between them and done away with the Law. The middle wall of partition is a reference to the wall in the temple that separated the Jews from the Gentiles. The Gentiles could only go so far into the temple, the Jews could go all the way. Paul is saying that Christ has done away with this wall, making the two equal. Then he draws a conclusion saying of the "you" group, you, therefore are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints. So, the you group, the Gentiles have become citizens with the saints. The contrast here has been Gentile and Jew. Thus the saints is a reference to the Jews. This takes us back to the opening statement addressed to the saints and the faithful. Clearly we have two different groups here.

Another thing to note in the passage is that all of the verbs in verses 3-12 are in the past tense except for one. That means these are all things God had already done. They had already been done when Paul wrote.

 

[Butch5]

Hello @Butch5,

Yes, it is an inference, in as much as an inference is a conclusion made upon reason and deduction, by comparing Scripture with Scripture, also taking into account Israel's history in regard to what occurred in AD70, when Titus destroyed Jerusalem.

Paul was converted in AD32; two years after the crucifixion in AD30; Cornelius was converted in AD41; the Jerusalem council on circumcision referred to by Paul in Galatians 2:1 took place in AD50; Paul arrived in Rome and was imprisoned in AD62, and the letter to the Ephesians was also written following divine revelation concerning the Mystery in that year. Paul died in AD67 in the same year as Peter. Three years later Israel were scattered. in AD70

AD30 - AD40 = 40 years when the door was open for Israel to come to repentance.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Hi Chris,

I understand that your inference came through reason and deduction. My point is that an inference, An inference can be correct or incorrect depending on how we understand facts. It can also change if we learn new facts. That believers are grafted into the Olive Tree, is stated plainly. I didn't draw that by way of inference, it's stated. I haven't seen anything that would indicate that that has changed. You suggested that it has and that Paul received further revelation. You presented several epistles. Have you stated what that further revelation is that changed it? Did I miss it?

 

[Butch5]

Hello @Butch5,

Forgive me for over-reacting, but I had spent a long time composing and referencing my response to you, and to have you misappropriating what I said was upsetting.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Hi Chris,

I didn't realize you did. No problem though.

 

[Butch5]

Eklektos G1588
From G1586; meaning select; and by implication favourite
Translated: - chosen, elect.

Hello Butch5,

The word ' Elect' is found in the prison epistles of Paul, - [written after receiving the revelation of God concerning the Mystery, that Gentiles should be fellow-heirs, and of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ by the gospel (Ephesians 3:6), and Paul given the grace 'to preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ; and to make all see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, Who created all things by Jesus Christ.' (Ephesians 3:8-9)] - in Titus 1:1; 2 Timothy 2:10; Colossians 3:12. These were written to Gentile believers, for Christ was 'in' (or among) them, their hope of glory. In 'the new man' there is 'neither Jew nor Greek, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, Bond nor free,: but Christ is all and in all' (Colossians 3:11).

'Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved,
bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;'
(Col 3:12)

' Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes,
that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.'
(2 Timothy 2:10)

'Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ,
according to the faith of God's elect,
and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;'
(Tit 1:1)

* The believers at Colossi were addressed as 'the saints and faithful brethren in Christ'.
Timothy is addressed by Paul, as his own 'son' in the faith, Titus also.
Paul refers to himself to Titus as an Apostle of Jesus Christ according to the faith of God's elect.

* The common factor in relation to all of these believers was that they were 'in Christ' in whom there is neither Jew nor Greek, for Christ is all in all.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Hi Chris,

I thought I knew where you were going with this until the end when you said there is neither Jew nor Geek. I would submit that the phrase, neither Jew nor Greek, is a term to stress equality. I wouldn't think that Paul is denying their ethnicity, I don't think you would either, correct? What am I missing?

 

[Butch5]

Another point I would submit in support of the idea that Gentiles are still grafted into Israel is the fact that believers are saved under the New Covenant. Let's look at the New Covenant.

31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more. (Jer. 31:31-34 KJV)

The New Covenant is made with the house of Israel, and the house of Judah. If the Covenant is made with them, how is a Gentile to enter this Covenant yet not be grafted into Israel?

 

[complete]

Rather than argue with recalcitrant,s try reading this, it explains everything very well. God chose us before we were even born, its up to us to heed his call. Even Among Well-Meaning Christians, ‘Born Again’ Is Often Misunderstood

Hello @Gregoryp.

Thank you for the link. Yet this thread subject heading is 'The Elect', and not about being born

@complete -- a comment -- concern -- your last sentence in post #111. "I hope you will read them and be blessed, too, as you see that Moses, David and the Nation of Israel and the Messiah, the Lord Jesus Christ , now risen and glorified are among God's chosen." Isn't that putting Jesus Christ, even being risen and glorified, on the same level as Moses and David? Which they are not. Jesus Christ is the Son of God which is the only reason He Can be the risen and glorified Savior.

Hello @Sue D,

Thank you for your comment. I think my opening remarks in that post, in relation to the verse in which our Lord is called God's Elect, is sufficient to counter that thought, although I apologise if you found my inclusion of His Election with that of Moses, David and the Nation of Israel offensive. For I can assure you it is not for want of regard, on my part, of honour to Him, I agree that it is only because He is Son of God as well as Son of Man that He has been able to be our Saviour.

Praise His Holy Name!

Thank you
With love in Christ Jesus
our risen and glorified
Saviour, Lord and Head.
Chris

 

[complete]

HI Chris,

I believe it's pretty clear in the Scriptures. As I pointed out the use of the pronouns shows two groups. We also have the opening statement to the saints and the faithful. Two groups. In the commentary I showed where Paul actually tells us who these two groups are.

11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; (Eph. 2:11-19 KJV)

Here Paul begins to draw a distinction between Jew and Gentile. He goes on to explain how they become one in Christ. However, notice what he says. 'You being in time past Gentiles', here he tells us that the "you" group is the Gentiles. This is the you group from chapter one. Then he identifies the other group, the Circumcision in the flesh made with hands. That was the Jews. He goes on to explain how the Gentiles were aliens, strangers from the covenants of promise, and without God. Contrast that to what he said about the "we, us, our" group. Of them he said,

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. (Eph. 1:3-12 KJV)

Paul told the Gentiles that they were without God, yet he said of the "we, us, our, group, that God had blessed them with all spiritual blessings. He said the Gentiles were without God in the world, yet of the "we, us, our" group he said God had chosen them before the foundation of the world. He said the Gentiles were without God, yet of the "we, us, our", group he said they had been predestined to adoption. To whom did the adoption pertain? It was Israel. Paul states that plainly in Romans 9.

3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises; (Rom. 9:3-4 KJV)

Paul said that the Gentiles were without God, yet of the 'we, us, our,' group he said that God had abounded toward they in all wisdom and prudence. He said God had made His will known to them, that was the Jews. God didn't present Himself to the Gentiles. Paul also said this group had obtained an inheritance. The Jews did obtain an inheritance, they received a land inheritance. The Gentiles didn't receive any inheritance from God. The did receive a down payment on a future inheritance, but none in the past. And then the final verse shows us who this group is. Paul says it was, we who first trusted, or actually, before hoed, in the Christ. Who had previously hoped in the Christ? It was the Jews, not the Gentiles. The Jews had been hoping for their Christ for a long time. There's just no way these two groups can be the same people. There are just too many differences.

He continues saying that the Gentiles who were far off, have been brought near. He says that Christ has broken down the middle wall of partition between them and done away with the Law. The middle wall of partition is a reference to the wall in the temple that separated the Jews from the Gentiles. The Gentiles could only go so far into the temple, the Jews could go all the way. Paul is saying that Christ has done away with this wall, making the two equal. Then he draws a conclusion saying of the "you" group, you, therefore are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints. So, the you group, the Gentiles have become citizens with the saints. The contrast here has been Gentile and Jew. Thus the saints is a reference to the Jews. This takes us back to the opening statement addressed to the saints and the faithful. Clearly we have two different groups here.

Another thing to note in the passage is that all of the verbs in verses 3-12 are in the past tense except for one. That means these are all things God had already done. They had already been done when Paul wrote.

Butch5 said:-
... Another thing to note in the passage is that all of the verbs in verses 3-12 are in the past tense except for one. That means these are all things God had already done. They had already been done when Paul wrote.

'For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants,
and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came,
Who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.'
(Rom 9:3-5)

Hello @Butch5,

Yes! Praise God! They had already been done! It was a finished work, Lets take a look at what they are:-

'Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,
Who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:' (Eph. 1:3)

'According as He hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world,
that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love: ... ' (Eph.1:4)

'Having pre-destinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to Himself,
according to the good pleasure of His will,' (Eph.1:5)

'To the praise of the glory of His grace, wherein He hath made us accepted in The Beloved.' (Eph 1:6)

'In whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace;'
Wherein He hath abounded toward us' (Eph 1:7-8a)

'In all wisdom and prudence; Having made known unto us the mystery of His will,
according to His good pleasure which He hath purposed in Himself:
That in the dispensation of the fulness of times He might gather together in one all things in Christ,
both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in Him: (Eph 1:8b-10)

'In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of Him
Who worketh all things after the counsel of His own will: ((Eph 1:11)

That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. (Eph 1:12)

* What a wonderful list of the blessings which are ours in Christ Jesus our risen Lord!
* Or do you in fact believe that these blessings, which are all spiritual blessings, and not the blessings 'of basket and store' (Deut 28:5) associated with the Kingdom of Israel, are not in fact ours in Christ Jesus?

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[complete]

Complete said in reply #101:-
'Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God,
to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:
Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,
Who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
According as He hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world,
that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love:
Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to Himself,
according to the good pleasure of His will,
To the praise of the glory of His grace, wherein He hath made us accepted in the Beloved.
In Whom we have redemption through His blood,
the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace; wherein He hath abounded toward us
in all wisdom and prudence; Having made known unto us the mystery of His will,
according to His good pleasure which He hath purposed in Himself:
That in the dispensation of the fulness of times He might gather together in one all things in Christ,
both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in Him:
(Eph 1:1-11)

Hello @Butch5,

Thank you for this further explanation.

Yes the epistle is addressed to 'the saints' (holy - set apart unto God) and 'faithful in Christ Jesus'. The 'saint' (1:1) is one by redeeming grace, and are such by their 'calling' (1:4), and that this calling is realized by the finished work of Christ on their behalf (5:27), and that , while their sainthood in the first instance derives from what God has done rather than what they are in themselves, there is such a thing, subsequently, as a manner of life that 'becometh' saints (5:3). The 'faithful' is one who, having been raised with Christ, seeks to walk worthy of the high calling that they have been called into.

* I have looked at your commentary in relation to these opening verses, and though I can understand why you should say what you do in relation to the first person pronouns within it, I believe that the change from 'we' and 'us' to 'you' and 'your' is simply an aside, referring to his listeners directly, before praying for them.

'In Whom (Christ) ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth,
the gospel of your salvation:
in Whom also after that ye believed,
ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,'

* For he includes them in the 'we' and 'us' by the use of the word 'our' in the following verse:-

'Which is the earnest of our inheritance
until the redemption of the purchased possession,
unto the praise of His glory.'

* Those whom He was addressing were not excluded from what was said earlier in terms of 'we' and us', but were themselves included in that. The use of' you' and 'ye' being used only in reference to their own salvation by grace and the sealing of the Holy Spirit.

* There is no divide between Jew and Gentile intended as you suggest, but total inclusion of His listeners with himself in the calling, and associated blessings listed in the 'we' and 'us' section from verses 1-12. For his listeners he prays that they will receive the spirit of wisdom and revelation required to fully appreciate and enter into the truth of what he had just written in those verses.

* It is this vital difference between your understanding and mine, in regard to interpretation, which could inhibit the possibility of our being able to discuss Scriptural matters further.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

HI Chris,

I believe it's pretty clear in the Scriptures. As I pointed out the use of the pronouns shows two groups. We also have the opening statement to the saints and the faithful. Two groups. In the commentary I showed where Paul actually tells us who these two groups are.

11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; (Eph. 2:11-19 KJV)

Here Paul begins to draw a distinction between Jew and Gentile. He goes on to explain how they become one in Christ. However, notice what he says. 'You being in time past Gentiles', here he tells us that the "you" group is the Gentiles. This is the you group from chapter one. Then he identifies the other group, the Circumcision in the flesh made with hands. That was the Jews. He goes on to explain how the Gentiles were aliens, strangers from the covenants of promise, and without God. Contrast that to what he said about the "we, us, our" group. Of them he said,

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. (Eph. 1:3-12 KJV)

Paul told the Gentiles that they were without God, yet he said of the "we, us, our, group, that God had blessed them with all spiritual blessings. He said the Gentiles were without God in the world, yet of the "we, us, our" group he said God had chosen them before the foundation of the world. He said the Gentiles were without God, yet of the "we, us, our", group he said they had been predestined to adoption. To whom did the adoption pertain? It was Israel. Paul states that plainly in Romans 9.

3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises; (Rom. 9:3-4 KJV)

Paul said that the Gentiles were without God, yet of the 'we, us, our,' group he said that God had abounded toward they in all wisdom and prudence. He said God had made His will known to them, that was the Jews. God didn't present Himself to the Gentiles. Paul also said this group had obtained an inheritance. The Jews did obtain an inheritance, they received a land inheritance. The Gentiles didn't receive any inheritance from God. The did receive a down payment on a future inheritance, but none in the past. And then the final verse shows us who this group is. Paul says it was, we who first trusted, or actually, before hoed, in the Christ. Who had previously hoped in the Christ? It was the Jews, not the Gentiles. The Jews had been hoping for their Christ for a long time. There's just no way these two groups can be the same people. There are just too many differences.

He continues saying that the Gentiles who were far off, have been brought near. He says that Christ has broken down the middle wall of partition between them and done away with the Law. The middle wall of partition is a reference to the wall in the temple that separated the Jews from the Gentiles. The Gentiles could only go so far into the temple, the Jews could go all the way. Paul is saying that Christ has done away with this wall, making the two equal. Then he draws a conclusion saying of the "you" group, you, therefore are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints. So, the you group, the Gentiles have become citizens with the saints. The contrast here has been Gentile and Jew. Thus the saints is a reference to the Jews. This takes us back to the opening statement addressed to the saints and the faithful. Clearly we have two different groups here.

Another thing to note in the passage is that all of the verbs in verses 3-12 are in the past tense except for one. That means these are all things God had already done. They had already been done when Paul wrote.

Hello @Butch5,

I responded to your reasoning concerning the personal pronouns in Ephesians 1:1-11 in reply#101 (now quoted above, so I will not repeat that.

* The epistle to the Ephesians, and that of Colossians, is addressed to the 'saints' and 'faithful in Christ Jesus'. 'The saint' here are described as 'the faithful' and are 'in Christ Jesus'. As saints they have been redeemed, called, sanctified and assured of glory, and are seeking to faithfully walk worthy of the calling they have received.

* The opening verses of Ephesians is threefold and deals with:-

The Will of the Father - 1:3-6.
The Work of the Son - 1:7-12
The Witness of the Spirit - 1:13-14

Each section is devoted to one phase of the truth and is the charter of the Church which is His Body,' the fulness of Him that filleth all in all.' (Ephesians 1:22-23): taking us back to, 'before the foundation of the world' (1:4) and on to the future day of redemption (1:14 & 4:30). This redemption comes under the heading 'the Work of the Son'. For He alone is the Mediator. He alone the Redeemer for He alone offered Himself without spot an offering and a sacrifice for sin. The Spirit's seal and earnest follows and does not precede this great redemptive work; the Witness of the Spirit combines the promise given before age times (2 Tim. 1:8-10) & Eph. 1:4) with the Redemption accomplished by Christ.

What does the believer inherit? - 'All spiritual blessings'.
Where will this inheritance be enjoyed? - 'In heavenly places'.
When was this will made? - 'Before the foundation of the world'.
Who will inherit? - Those who receive 'The Adoption'.
Why did the Father so choose? - 'The good pleasure of his will.

@Butch5,
I disagree with your treatment of Ephesians 1:1-14.
I acknowledge with grateful thanks to God for the truth you have quoted in Ephesians 2:11-19, but do not agree with your treatment of it.
I do not, as I have said, agree with your interpretation of the use of personal pronouns in Ephesians 1:1-14.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
our risen and glorified
Saviour, Lord and Head.
Chris

 

[complete]

Hi Chris,

I understand that your inference came through reason and deduction. My point is that an inference, An inference can be correct or incorrect depending on how we understand facts. It can also change if we learn new facts. That believers are grafted into the Olive Tree, is stated plainly. I didn't draw that by way of inference, it's stated. I haven't seen anything that would indicate that that has changed. You suggested that it has and that Paul received further revelation. You presented several epistles. Have you stated what that further revelation is that changed it? Did I miss it?

Hello @Butch5,

Israel ceased to be a nation in AD70, it was scattered among the nations. The Olive Tree is a figure of Israel (Jeremiah 11:16, Hosea 14:6), on which there are branches both believing and unbelieving, the believing branched were broken off but not cast away, and the believing gentiles were grafted into the tree to revive the tree into new growth, by bringing Israel to repentance, by jealousy and the desire to emulate them.

When Israel failed to repent, and continued in unbelief, they went away into the darkness of unbelief (Acts 28:17-31), Jerusalem and the temple destroyed and Israel was scattered. There was therefore no longer an Olive Tree to be grafted into. Their repentance now awaits another yet future day.

Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, 1 & 2 Timothy and Titus were written just prior to that event, marked by Isaiah 6:9-10, quoted in Acts 28:28, while Paul was in prison, and provided the knowledge, Divinely revealed to Paul, concerning the administration of the church following this upheaval. This knowledge was 'hid in God' prior to it's revelation, and is therefore not the subject of the epistles written prior to it by Paul. Therefore Paul refers to the content of this new administration that he was called to minister as, 'the unsearchable riches of Christ', (Ephesians 3:8) for they cannot be found elsewhere in Scripture, either in the Old Testament Prophets, or in the other writings in both Old or New Testament Scriptures.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris