The gifts of the Holy Spirit for the Church??

[vhusley]

why are you quoting scripture like it is pop corn? and if verses numbers are divinely inspired by GOD.
Alright i been nice. and kind. and i did say i like you. alright be nice.

ps. what part of Mississippi you from? Gulfport?

Biloxi. Been to the MS Gulf Coast before?

 

[PloughBoy]

Biloxi. Been to the MS Gulf Coast before?

my mother family grew up in Forrest, Ms. i came south every summer from the time i was wearing diapers. I did a lot work coming through there also during the last bad Storms through there from early 2004 through 2013 as well for "FEMA" and Military contractor here. retired. I am familiar with all down there, even Louisiana and Texas.

 

[vhusley]

my mother family grew up in Forrest, Ms. i came south every summer from the time i was wearing diapers. I did a lot work coming through there also during the last bad Storms through there from early 2004 through 2013 as well for "FEMA" and Military contractor here. retired. I am familiar with all down there, even Louisiana and Texas.

Come on!
You’re practically a country boy then!
Small world!

 

[PloughBoy]

Come on!
You’re practically a country boy then!
Small world!

I can slop hogs with the best and ride mules and horses better than most. and have swim in snake invested ponds more than i can remember.

 

[NetChaplain]

Hi and God bless! Just wanted to encourage others by mentioning that the meaning of Mat 24:24 is that it is "impossible" to deceive the elect (all whom God knows will be saved).

 

[vhusley]

*Duplicate post. Sorry.

 

[vhusley]

Hi and God bless! Just wanted to encourage others by mentioning that the meaning of Mat 24:24 is that it is "impossible" to deceive the elect (all whom God knows will be saved).

So the “elect” cannot be deceived?
Then why does Jesus even bother giving these warnings to His disciples? (because that’s who He was speaking here to directly)

Also, if you go back several verses, Jesus says this, “ At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another. Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many……but the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.” - Mathew 24:10-13

It seems that Jesus is warning His disciples about the danger of falling away. It also seems as if He’s saying that even THEY (and thus we) must endure until the end in order to be saved.

Scripture must be read and considered in the fullness of its context.

 

[NetChaplain]

So the “elect” cannot be deceived?
Then why does Jesus even bother giving these warnings to His disciples? (because that’s who He was speaking here to directly)

To manifest those who will persevere. Perseverance doesn't attain unto salivation, but salvation manifests itself via perseverance (I don't think we can have a profitable discussion on this issue unless it's understood that "elect" are those whom God knows will be saved).

"If it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect" Albert Barnes ( 1798-1870) - "So nearly would their pretended miracles resemble true miracles as to render it difficult to detect the imposture; so much so, that if it were possible they would persuade even true Christians that they were the Messiah. But that was not possible. His real friends would be too firmly established in the belief that He was the Christ to be wholly led away by others. Christians may be sometimes led far astray; they may be in doubt about some great doctrines of religion; they may be perplexed by the cavils and cunning craftiness of those who do not love the truth, but they cannot be entirely deceived and seduced from the Savior. Our Savior says that if this “were possible,” it would be done then; but it was not possible.

Matthew 24 - Barnes' Notes on the Whole Bible - Bible Commentaries - StudyLight.org

Matthew 24, Barnes' Notes on the Whole Bible, Barnes' Notes on the Whole Bible provides Christians with deep insights into the Scriptures, emphasizing original texts and historical context.

www.studylight.org

John Gil ( 1697-1771) - "The reason why they are elect, and why they are so called, is not because they are converted, are believers, and persevering Christians; but, on the contrary, the reason why they are converted, become true believers, and persevere to the end, is, because they are elected; conversion, faith, and perseverance are not the causes or conditions, but the fruits and effects of election."
Matthew 24 Bible Commentary - John Gill’s Exposition of the Bible

Also, if you go back several verses, Jesus says this, “ At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another. Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many……but the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.” - Mathew 24:10-13

When Scripture refers to "falling away" (2Th 2:3), "fallen from grace" (Gal 5:4), "depart from the faith" (1Ti 4:1), it means they are separating themselves from professing the doctrines of such, and not from what the doctrines teach, which they never truly accepted as truth (apostatize - never been saved), or they would have "continued" - (1Jo 2:19).

John Gill - "From the true grace of faith there can be no final and total apostasy, such as is here designed; for that can never be lost. It is of an incorruptible nature, and therefore more precious than gold that perishes; Christ is the author and finisher of it; his prevalent mediation is concerned for it; it is a gift of special grace, and is without repentance; it springs from electing grace, and is secured by it; and between that and salvation there is an inseparable connection; it may indeed decline, be very low, and lie dormant, as to its acts and exercise, but not be lost: there is a temporary faith, and a persuasion of truth, or a mere assent to it, which may be departed from, but not that faith which works by love: here it intends a profession of faith, which being made, should be dropped by some; or rather the doctrine of faith, which some would embrace, and then err concerning, or entirely quit, and wholly apostatize from."

1 Timothy 4 Bible Commentary - John Gill’s Exposition of the Bible

Study 1 Timothy 4 using John Gill’s Exposition of the Bible to better understand Scripture with full outline and verse meaning.

www.christianity.com

Albert Barnes - "Some shall depart from the faith - The Greek word here - ἀποστήσονται apostēsontai - is that from which we have derived the word “apostatize,” and would be properly so rendered here. The meaning is, that they would “apostatize” from the belief of the truths of the gospel. It does not mean that, as individuals, they would have been true Christians; but that there would be a departure from the great doctrines which constitute the Christian faith. The ways in which they would do this are immediately specified, showing what the apostle meant here by departing from the faith. They would give heed to seducing spirits, to the doctrines of devils, etc."

1 Timothy 4 - Barnes' Notes on the Whole Bible - Bible Commentaries - StudyLight.org

1 Timothy 4, Barnes' Notes on the Whole Bible, Barnes' Notes on the Whole Bible provides Christians with deep insights into the Scriptures, emphasizing original texts and historical context.

www.studylight.org

 

[vhusley]

Duplicate post. Sorry again.

 

[vhusley]

To manifest those who will persevere. Perseverance doesn't attain unto salivation, but salvation manifests itself via perseverance (I don't think we can have a profitable discussion on this issue unless it's understood that "elect" are those whom God knows will be saved).

"If it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect" Albert Barnes ( 1798-1870) - "So nearly would their pretended miracles resemble true miracles as to render it difficult to detect the imposture; so much so, that if it were possible they would persuade even true Christians that they were the Messiah. But that was not possible. His real friends would be too firmly established in the belief that He was the Christ to be wholly led away by others. Christians may be sometimes led far astray; they may be in doubt about some great doctrines of religion; they may be perplexed by the cavils and cunning craftiness of those who do not love the truth, but they cannot be entirely deceived and seduced from the Savior. Our Savior says that if this “were possible,” it would be done then; but it was not possible.

Matthew 24 - Barnes' Notes on the Whole Bible - Bible Commentaries - StudyLight.org

Matthew 24, Barnes' Notes on the Whole Bible, Barnes' Notes on the Whole Bible provides Christians with deep insights into the Scriptures, emphasizing original texts and historical context.

www.studylight.org

John Gil ( 1697-1771) - "The reason why they are elect, and why they are so called, is not because they are converted, are believers, and persevering Christians; but, on the contrary, the reason why they are converted, become true believers, and persevere to the end, is, because they are elected; conversion, faith, and perseverance are not the causes or conditions, but the fruits and effects of election."
Matthew 24 Bible Commentary - John Gill’s Exposition of the Bible


When Scripture refers to "falling away" (2Th 2:3), "fallen from grace" (Gal 5:4), "depart from the faith" (1Ti 4:1), it means they are separating themselves from professing the doctrines of such, and not from what the doctrines teach, which they never truly accepted as truth (apostatize - never been saved), or they would have "continued" - (1Jo 2:19).

John Gill - "From the true grace of faith there can be no final and total apostasy, such as is here designed; for that can never be lost. It is of an incorruptible nature, and therefore more precious than gold that perishes; Christ is the author and finisher of it; his prevalent mediation is concerned for it; it is a gift of special grace, and is without repentance; it springs from electing grace, and is secured by it; and between that and salvation there is an inseparable connection; it may indeed decline, be very low, and lie dormant, as to its acts and exercise, but not be lost: there is a temporary faith, and a persuasion of truth, or a mere assent to it, which may be departed from, but not that faith which works by love: here it intends a profession of faith, which being made, should be dropped by some; or rather the doctrine of faith, which some would embrace, and then err concerning, or entirely quit, and wholly apostatize from."

1 Timothy 4 Bible Commentary - John Gill’s Exposition of the Bible

Study 1 Timothy 4 using John Gill’s Exposition of the Bible to better understand Scripture with full outline and verse meaning.

www.christianity.com

Albert Barnes - "Some shall depart from the faith - The Greek word here - ἀποστήσονται apostēsontai - is that from which we have derived the word “apostatize,” and would be properly so rendered here. The meaning is, that they would “apostatize” from the belief of the truths of the gospel. It does not mean that, as individuals, they would have been true Christians; but that there would be a departure from the great doctrines which constitute the Christian faith. The ways in which they would do this are immediately specified, showing what the apostle meant here by departing from the faith. They would give heed to seducing spirits, to the doctrines of devils, etc."

1 Timothy 4 - Barnes' Notes on the Whole Bible - Bible Commentaries - StudyLight.org

1 Timothy 4, Barnes' Notes on the Whole Bible, Barnes' Notes on the Whole Bible provides Christians with deep insights into the Scriptures, emphasizing original texts and historical context.

www.studylight.org

You are correct. We can not have a fruitful discussion because I believe that your understanding of “the elect” is based upon a mishandling of scripture. I don’t subscribe to the doctrine of “eternal security” nor of “perseverance of the Saints” because it’s simply not based on a right reading of God’s Word.

These NT warnings regarding apostasy and falling away…from Christ Himself as well as from the Apostles, were not messages directed to the lost….but obviously to followers/believers. These were warnings directed to the Church.
Have a blessed day.

 

[vhusley]

When Scripture refers to "falling away" (2Th 2:3), "fallen from grace" (Gal 5:4), "depart from the faith" (1Ti 4:1), it means they are separating themselves from professing the doctrines of such, and not from what the doctrines teach, which they never truly accepted as truth (apostatize - never been saved), or they would have "continued" - (1Jo 2:19).

“Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. IF that which ye have heard from the beginning shall REMAIN in you, ye also shall continue in the Son and in the Father. And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life. ,” - 1 John 2:24-25

If what you claim regarding falling away is true, why then is this warning even needed? It seems to clearly suggest that there is the possibility that it may not REMAIN in them. Please explain.

 

[B-A-C]

It seems to clearly suggest that there is the possibility that it may not REMAIN in them.

True.

(apostatize - never been saved)

Apostate can never mean, not saved. It always means saved and "fallen away".

 

[NetChaplain]

You are correct. We can not have a fruitful discussion because I believe that your understanding of “the elect” is based upon a mishandling of scripture. I don’t subscribe to the doctrine of “eternal security” nor of “perseverance of the Saints” because it’s simply not based on a right reading of God’s Word.

These NT warnings regarding apostasy and falling away…from Christ Himself as well as from the Apostles, were not messages directed to the lost….but obviously to followers/believers. These were warnings directed to the Church.
Have a blessed day.

Appreciate your kind manner of communication, and as we know there will always be differences of understanding between believers on many Bible doctrines concerning spiritual growth. Our knowledge is presently limited, but we will eventually know things more completely, as well as we are now known by God (1Co 13:12). Fortunately how one understands spiritual growth doctrines does not effect the attaining unto salvation through faith in the Lord Jesus.

 

[B-A-C]

John 14:26; "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.
1Cor 2:10; For to us God revealed them through the Spirit; for the Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God.
Eph 1:17; that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the knowledge of Him.

Luke 8:10; And He said, "To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God, but to the rest it is in parables, so that SEEING THEY MAY NOT SEE, AND HEARING THEY MAY NOT UNDERSTAND.
1Cor 4:1; Let a man regard us in this manner, as servants of Christ and stewards of the mysteries of God.

1Cor 14:2; For one who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God; for no one understands, but in his spirit he speaks mysteries.

 

[Curtis]

1Jn 5:4 For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.


everyone who has been born of God has an absolute guarantee of their salvation, they have eternal life today and forevermore.

1Jn 5:13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.


the problem arises with those who do not understand the Word of God. Satan can only "steal" that which we do not understand.

Mat 13:19 When anyone hears the word of the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what has been sown in his heart. This is what was sown along the path.

Mat 13:23 As for what was sown on good soil, this is the one who hears the word and understands it. He indeed bears fruit and yields, in one case a hundredfold, in another sixty, and in another thirty.”

The very first fruit that the Word produces is the "New birth"

1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

Jesus said the "parable of the sower" is the most important parable of all, and if we do not "understand it" we will get all the rest wrong.

Mar 4:13 And he said unto them, Know ye not this parable? and how then will ye know all parables?

If we want to know why certain people who call themselves believers fall away this parable explains why.

 

[vhusley]

1Jn 5:4 For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.


everyone who has been born of God has an absolute guarantee of their salvation, they have eternal life today and forevermore.

1Jn 5:13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.


the problem arises with those who do not understand the Word of God. Satan can only "steal" that which we do not understand.

Mat 13:19 When anyone hears the word of the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what has been sown in his heart. This is what was sown along the path.

Mat 13:23 As for what was sown on good soil, this is the one who hears the word and understands it. He indeed bears fruit and yields, in one case a hundredfold, in another sixty, and in another thirty.”

The very first fruit that the Word produces is the "New birth"

1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

Jesus said the "parable of the sower" is the most important parable of all, and if we do not "understand it" we will get all the rest wrong.

Mar 4:13 And he said unto them, Know ye not this parable? and how then will ye know all parables?

If we want to know why certain people who call themselves believers fall away this parable explains why.

“If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask and God will for him give life to those who commit sin not leading to death. There IS a sin leading to death; I do not say that he should make request for this.” - 1 John 5:16

Four quick questions here: (1) When John is talking about a “brother,” to whom is he referring?
(2)What is “the sin leading to death”?
(3) Is John talking about physical death or spiritual death?
(4) Is John suggesting that a brother is capable of committing “the sin that leads to death”?

 

[Curtis]

“If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask and God will for him give life to those who commit sin not leading to death. There IS a sin leading to death; I do not say that he should make request for this.” - 1 John 5:16

Four quick questions here: (1) When John is talking about a “brother,” to whom is he referring?
(2)What is “the sin leading to death”?
(3) Is John talking about physical death or spiritual death?
(4) Is John suggesting that a brother is capable of committing “the sin that leads to death”?

The "brother" would be a born-again person.

The only sin "not" forgivable is "blasphemy of the Holy Ghost", which would also fall under "apostasy" which is denying the faith they once professed. Professing faith and possesing faith are not the same thing. Anyone can profess to have faith but not everyone possess saving faith.

John did not say a "brother" can sin the sin unto dearh which is why he said "...a brother whom sins "not" leading to death ...."

Only a non believer can sin the sin unto death. No prayer can save them.

 

[Waggles]

1Jn 5:4 For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.
everyone who has been born of God has an absolute guarantee of their salvation, they have eternal life today and forevermore.

Who are they that are born of God?? The NT is very specific about what complies with the commandment to be born from above.
Given that the gospel and the church in the NT is written before the emergence of the RCC and Eastern Orthodox and Protestant churches then we may ask who are those born of God??
Our faith?? This would of course be faith in the original Pentecostal gospel delivered once to the saints.
And where does scripture give disciples an absolute guarantee of their salvation?

 

[Curtis]

Who are they that are born of God?? The NT is very specific about what complies with the commandment to be born from above.
Given that the gospel and the church in the NT is written before the emergence of the RCC and Eastern Orthodox and Protestant churches then we may ask who are those born of God??
Our faith?? This would of course be faith in the original Pentecostal gospel delivered once to the saints.
And where does scripture give disciples an absolute guarantee of their salvation?

Jud 1:24 Now all glory to God, who is able to keep you from falling away and will bring you with great joy into his glorious presence without a single fault.
Jud 1:25 All glory to him who alone is God, our Savior (NLT)

 

[Waggles]

Jud 1:24 Now all glory to God, who is able to keep you from falling away and will bring you with great joy into his glorious presence without a single fault.
Jud 1:25 All glory to him who alone is God, our Savior (NLT)

We are in danger of derailing the thread through yet another endless circular debate over the false teaching of OSAS.
Let us stay on target and keep to the topic of "The gifts of the Holy Spirit for the church?"
And these gifts are manifest in our Pentecostal churches today.