Welcome!

By registering with us, you'll be able to discuss, share and private message with other members of our community.

SignUp Now!
  • Welcome to Talk Jesus Christian Forums

    Celebrating 20 Years!

    A bible based, Jesus Christ centered community.

    Register Log In

The god of free will

CarlosB

Member
Joined
Jul 12, 2013
Messages
2
With this article I want to show the image ridiculous that the defenders of free will give about God.


The god of free will, is the god of the flesh, you need the consent of the man to act, because without his decision, such a God can not save, forgive or bless, or change whatever in man's life.


Ie: it will only be God if man leave. It's like a dog on a leash, that where the owner will just leave, do so with this God, he blesses only when man allows.


A breeder that depends entirely on the creature that created, but at the same time also like to see the suffering of their children, because only blesses will force campaigns, chains, fasts, and many prayers, a god that is sold, for only giving 10 % of my salary does have its share of the guarantee to be blessed and protected from the curse and the devourer.


And this is not an option, or a voluntary gift of love, but is under the threat of a curse, and under a yoke of fear, for I am compelled to do it not to be cursed by the devil.


But this offer is that Christ brought me whether I have to pay 10% of my salary, and that for life to be blessed? And do not give up yet I am called a robber, but God did not call Lazarus a thief, but fair.


They say that God regards our decisions is a God of love, but according to the free will seems to me anything but a God of love.


Because he watches for millennia sitting on his throne to all the suffering and misery that plague the land and does nothing for humanity. We see storms, earthquakes and large natural destructions which destroy thousands, taking him all the power, where is the god of love for these?


Diseases and pests which claim thousands of lives every day, taking him all the power, where is the god of love for these? The death of children will be born, others are born handicapped, sick and maimed, and horrible suffering, taking him all the power, which is God's love for these?


Wars in which the powerful exert tyranny over men and enslave and kill, he being a god of justice, where is the god of love for these? The growing corruption where the unrighteous always prevails over the poor, being God and Lord of all, where is the god of love for these?


Being the all powerful and wise, because after expelling the devil from heaven because of their wickedness, yet fell once again made the mistake of giving him dominion over the world and rule over the nations and tormented day and night, and lets just continue. This was the punishment that God gave the devil because he sinned in heaven? To me it seems more a reward than a punishment.


A God of love who leaves his saints of all generations being persecuted, tortured and killed, many were sawn asunder, were mutilated, hanged, burnt, crucified, starved, and all manner of afflictions because of the word of God including the very Son of God, whom God hath oppressed and wanted to let die at the hands of men: where is the love for them? It is this love of a Father who loves his children? If he has all power are you waiting for?


If you had all the power like God has abandoned them to your son suffer afflictions? Even if he was ever bad destruirias? Where do you see the world the love of God? Is not he the one who can prevent all this? So why not do it? Actually those seeking the love of God according to the free will of men, which is the flesh, never find.


But to continue:


Where do you see the perfect God and mighty on the earth according to free will?


Soon began to fail with the devil in the sky, although it was the most perfect has become the most corrupt, so it caused an uproar and corrupted angels. Although the cast out of heaven, not learning the lesson, put him in Eden, and once again the devil frustou God's plans deceiving Adam and corrupting all mankind.


Soon once again failed to humanity, why not put Adam in a position to resist Satan, and the sin of Adam have all born sinners and death.


And after casting the devil out of heaven, because scripture says that he continued to go to the presence of God (jewelry)? That guy so stubborn and God as apathetic and stupid. And on top of it after doing all this still gives you control of the world.


Also failed with Noah's generation, because nobody believed in his word that Noah announced, and then destroyed the world he had created the flood. Failed with aa covenant of the law, because no one was justified by the law before everyone was under a curse, and so today since there is no law, neither temple nor ark, or anything. Failed with the promises to Israel, because this people rejected Christ who was always announced by the law and the prophets.


Failed to David and Solomon, the kings of Israel, because he promised on oath to never miss heir on the throne, and now neither exists nor throne, nor kings, nor the promised land, but Israel is made in a land of war and desolation, where God is absent. Continues to fail in the covenant of grace, because it all depends on the decision of the man, his promise to Abraham is invalidated by the decision of man whenever he rejects it, although it was made under oath.


And if the promises of God depends on man, your entire project is in danger of collapsing because promises and oaths made based on the decision of man, then is he who has to trust in man and not man for God? Because everything depends on man, soon everything will be done thanks to him not thank God. What does it mean that man has power to make true God or a liar, preventing their promises are made! And thus, He is God and Lord only if the man wants!


It is this all-powerful god of the bible? This seems to me a loser from the start. A God who is weak and pathetic fellow ace decisions of man, this god actually has more problems than those who call upon him.


A god who fabricated in his heart, a god they made in your image and likeness, a god according to his will, according to their own desires and lusts. è why the wicked blaspheme God, for all that they have the free will not come, that is: there is no love of God according to the free will preach.


As for you, this comes under slavery and come to know the Almighty God that the Bible talks since the beginning of the world, who created all things, and all things obey him in heaven on earth and in hell.


He dominates and always rule over his creation, and no one can resist the will, especially the man, but everything and everyone will make all the will of God from Adam to the last man on earth.




My intention in writing this text is not to generate strife or gratuitous wars against the faith of the people, but to destroy the idea of ​​free referee that is an affront to God, whom many are cursing God all day.


My wish is the liberation of man from the bondage of deception to freedom of God's love, salvation wondering who really fear God, for all that is of God hears God's voice.


For I've been on that side until Christ came to me and delivered me from the power of darkness into the light now manifest in Christ Jesus.


Peace to those who fear God!
 
Hi Carlos
I think I understand some of your post but it is not translating correctly.
I assume your using some type of translator and
in some cases it may be saying the opposite of what you intended.
This is a complicated subject that may be beyond a computer translation.

I have never been so confused.
That's a sign that your paying attention.
 
Can we choose for ourselves whether we will follow God?
Jos 24:15; "If it is disagreeable in your sight to serve the LORD, choose for yourselves today whom you will serve: whether the gods which your fathers served which were beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you are living; but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD."

Can we choose for ourselves decision God offers us?
1 Chron 21:10; "Go and speak to David, saying, 'Thus says the LORD, "I offer you three things; choose for yourself one of them, which I will do to you."'"

Do we have the power to choose to break God's commands?
Gen 2:16; The LORD God commanded the man, saying, "From any tree of the garden you may eat freely;
Gen 2:17; but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die."
Gen 3:13; Then the LORD God said to the woman, "What is this you have done?" And the woman said, "The serpent deceived me, and I ate."

Do we have the power to choose the fear of the Lord?
Prov 1:29; Because they hated knowledge And did not choose the fear of the LORD.

Do we have the power to resist God reaching out to us?
Rom 10:21; But as for Israel He says, "ALL THE DAY LONG I HAVE STRETCHED OUT MY HANDS TO A DISOBEDIENT AND OBSTINATE PEOPLE."

Do we have the choice to resist listening to God's voice?
Eze 2:4; "I am sending you to them who are stubborn and obstinate children, and you shall say to them, 'Thus says the Lord GOD.'
Eze 2:5; "As for them, whether they listen or not--for they are a rebellious house--they will know that a prophet has been among them.

Do we truly have self will?
Tit 1:7; For the overseer must be above reproach as God's steward, not self-willed, not quick-tempered, not addicted to wine, not pugnacious, not fond of sordid gain,

Does our self will have the ability to go against God's will?
Gen 49:6; "Let my soul not enter into their council; Let not my glory be united with their assembly; Because in their anger they slew men, And in their self-will they lamed oxen.

Does man have the ability to reject God?
1 Thes 4:8; So, he who rejects this is not rejecting man but the God who gives His Holy Spirit to you.

Does man have the ability to resist the Holy Spirit?
Acts 7:51; "You men who are stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears are always resisting the Holy Spirit; you are doing just as your fathers did.

There are certain things God decrees and God ordains, there will be savior born of a virgin. It happened.
There will be one who betrays the Lamb with a kiss. It happened.
There will be a beast who takes over the world and tries to force everyone to worship him. God said it will happen, so it will happen.

That doesn't mean God ordains everything to happen. It doesn't mean his will always happens no matter what.
2 Pet 3:9; The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

And yet some (probably most).. will perish.
So because God doesn't force us to do things, does that mean he isn't God? Maybe we are lot more insignificant that we realize. God doesn't need us in order to be God.
The Earth itself is a mere speck in the cosmos. Whether we choose him or not doesn't matter (as far as whether he is sovereign or not) he is still God regardless of what we think or do.

When you really love someone. You don't force them to be what you want.
When you really love someone, you love them enough to let them make their own choices.
 
Last edited:
Another "fact" of God without a single scripture to be seen.

Hello All, Grace and Peace!


Does man have free will?


Take the case of Adam, Adam had no knowledge of good and evil, because this knowledge was in the tree, how could he have free will?


It was with this deception that the devil tempted him saying if you eat you will be like God knowing good and evil, suggesting that later could decide for himself!


Not that he had, but according to the lie of Satan would have and could decide for themselves, through knowledge!


But God said if you eat you die, did not say who would be able to decide ,who was right God or the Devil?


And the descendants of Adam, who was born in the slave of sin and death, have free will?


Jesus said, everyone who sins is a slave of sin, the slave is not free to choose!


The man who is born again, becomes a slave of Christ, does not have free will, right?


We conclude that man has no free will, right?


There are thousands of biblical verses that contradict the free will and never says we have free choice!
 
Hello B.A.C


One thing is the choice, another choice is free!


every man makes his choices, but are based on their willingness and understanding.


The natural man never chooses spiritual things, because they do not understand and can not understand, so just choose the natural.


The spiritual man never chooses carnal things, because its slope is Christ and when does the will of the flesh, not by choice but out of weakness!


So the choice is not free, depends on the nature, depends on the spiritual condition of the sinner chooses sin, sanctified choose holiness, right?


So there is no free will, but a choice based on man's spiritual condition, if the wicked choose to serve Christ, he will turn into a Judas!
 
God created man in His likeness with the ability to choose freely. God is limited on the Earth by man. This is proved by the fact that Jesus asks us to pray "Thy will be done on Earth as in Heaven". God's will is always done in Heaven, but not always done on Earth. So we need to pray, this gives God the permission to move on the Earth.

Human beings are not so fallen that they cannot choose God or choose what is good. God said to murderous and fallen Cain: Gen 4:6-7
6 Then the Lord said to Cain, “Why are you angry? Why is your face downcast? 7 If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must rule over it.”

We can choose to do what is right. Humans, even those without God have the ability to rule over sin. This is proved by the fact that there are many atheists who live good moral upright lives in victory over sin.
 
Last edited:
The natural man never chooses spiritual things, because they do not understand and can not understand, so just choose the natural.


The spiritual man never chooses carnal things, because its slope is Christ and when does the will of the flesh, not by choice but out of weakness!

I think you are (badly) paraphrasing this verse: 1 Cor 2:14
The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit.

This person without the Spirit does not accept the spiritual things by choosing not to accept them.

It is our choice whether to live in the Spirit or not (Gal 5:16).
 
God created man in His likeness with the ability to choose freely. God is limited on the Earth by man. This is proved by the fact that Jesus asks us to pray "Thy will be done on Earth as in Heaven". God's will is always done in Heaven, but not always done on Earth. So we need to pray, this gives God the permission to move on the Earth.

Human beings are not so fallen that they cannot choose God or choose what is good. God said to murderous and fallen Cain: Gen 4:6-7
6 Then the Lord said to Cain, “Why are you angry? Why is your face downcast? 7 If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must rule over it.”

We can choose to do what is right. Humans, even those without God have the ability to rule over sin. This is proved by the fact that there are many atheists who live good moral upright lives in victory over sin.


GOD is limited on the earth by man???? Man free-will overcomes GOD's???

Thank GOD you're wrong or no one would be saved from death.
 
In that case, it should be easy to post 20 or 30 to support your case.

  • B-A-C

    I agree with Vitor and Carlos (I guess that's no surprise)...


And yes.. the whole bible shows you this... no free will... and it's not just verses, but it is the whole bible and it's teachings.

I'll give you just one small verse to see if there's acceptance from you.

"A person's steps are directed by the LORD. How then can anyone understand their own way?"
Pv 20:24

Now, show me ONE VERSE that says that man has free will.


JAMES
I think you are (badly) paraphrasing this verse: 1 Cor 2:14
The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit.

This person without the Spirit does not accept the spiritual things by choosing not to accept them.

It is our choice whether to live in the Spirit or not (Gal 5:16).

And how is this diferent James???
Of course they CHOOSE not to accept them... they CAN'T choose otherwise...

...they CANNOT choose anything else because they CANNOT understand the things of GOD because they do not have the spirit... In order to accept GOD (choose HIM) you must first have the Spirit.
Isn't that what is being explained in that passage??

Gal 5:16 -
accepting GOD is not done by our walk... acceptance is in the heart, not in your works.
 
Last edited:
Gal 5:16 - accepting GOD is not done by our walk... acceptance is in the heart, not in your works.

Hmmm... not even close to what my Bible says.
Gal 5:16; But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh.

But you are right accepting God comes from OUR hearts.
 
We do have exactly two real choices. We can choose to live or we can choose to remain dead.

"Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die" John 11:25-26

Those who do not believe in Jesus are dead to God. If a person doesn't even really know who Jesus is, can he believe in Him?

In another place Jesus speaks of those who are dead and He is not talking about those who have had dirt shoveled in their faces:

"And another of his disciples said unto him, Lord, suffer me first to go and bury my father.
But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead." Matt 8:21-22

There a lot of dead people walking around. They can make many choices as men see choices, but none of them matter in the end if they never choose Life.
 
Hmmm... not even close to what my Bible says.
Gal 5:16; But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh.

But you are right accepting God comes from OUR hearts.

Not even close to what I asked.
 
We do have exactly two real choices. We can choose to live or we can choose to remain dead.

"Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die" John 11:25-26

Those who do not believe in Jesus are dead to God. If a person doesn't even really know who Jesus is, can he believe in Him?

In another place Jesus speaks of those who are dead and He is not talking about those who have had dirt shoveled in their faces:

"And another of his disciples said unto him, Lord, suffer me first to go and bury my father.
But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead." Matt 8:21-22

There a lot of dead people walking around. They can make many choices as men see choices, but none of them matter in the end if they never choose Life.


A dead man cannot generate faith of his own. A dead man cannot understand GOD, much less can he believe in HIM. First he has to be saved from death by GOD's grace.
 
I was thinking about making a topic like this after reading a recent topic titled 'How can a God of love send anybody to Hell?'

I strongly disagree with the writing there but I didn't feel right about posting this there. If you are on the wrong side or a Christian who is very prone to struggling with 'assurance'(been there x.x, this is how faith grows in my experience/opinion. I thank God for being a merciful, great and lovingkind help. He is compassionate. Continue always with Him and you will see it too.) you may take this negatively.

I hate when people make God weak and/or lie about him.

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. Isaiah 45:7 (really this whole chapter is good and Iove God all the more for it.)

The LORD has made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil. Proverbs 16:4

All of God's word is truth. God is love. He Himself paid for salvation. Believe on Him and you will be saved. John 3:16-18
 
2 Corinthians 5:19
that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.

So we have been entrusted with this word of reconciliation. A testimony
of reconciliation of God with mankind. Not a reconciliation of God and the
predestined chosen elect. The scripture is simple and clear that God's love
in Jesus Christ is for all.

Please read on.

1 Timothy 2
1 First of all, then, I urge that entreaties and prayers, petitions and thanksgivings, be made on behalf of all men,
2 for kings and all who are in authority, so that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and dignity.
3 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
5 For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
6 who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony given at the proper time.


It is not difficult to understand the two important lines above.

4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

6 who gave Himself as a ransom for all.

God desires all to be saved.

God gave Himself for all.

God loves all of His creation make no mistake.

The doors of the kingdom of Heaven are wide open.

Anyone who calls on the name of Jesus Christ will be saved.
 
GOD is limited on the earth by man???? Man free-will overcomes GOD's???

Thank GOD you're wrong or no one would be saved from death.

Yes God is limited.

Why would God ask us to pray for his will to be done on Earth, if His will is always done? Please answer this if you can.
 
And how is this diferent James???
Of course they CHOOSE not to accept them... they CAN'T choose otherwise...

...they CANNOT choose anything else because they CANNOT understand the things of GOD because they do not have the spirit... In order to accept GOD (choose HIM) you must first have the Spirit.
Isn't that what is being explained in that passage??

Gal 5:16 - accepting GOD is not done by our walk... acceptance is in the heart, not in your works.

They don't have the Spirit because they have not chosen to ask Him:
Luke 11:13 "If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!""

If we cannot choose to be saved, why did the apostle Peter in Acts 2:40 say we can save ourselves?: "And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation." (KJV)
 
Back
Top