The Nativity

[B-A-C]

Lastly The birth of Christ was not a miracle but prophecy. Whether the Jews believe in Jesus or not they all believe in the validity of Isaiah 7:14. The miracle or sign was the star not the birth.

That's true, however who His biological Father is... does! As for Jews believing in Isa 7. They don't believe the Christ has come yet. There are no Judiast Christians.
So whether the sign was the star or the virgin birth matters not to them. Still, for sake of discussion, can you give the scripture to support it was the star?
You and I were both born of a man and woman. We aren't God. If Jesus was born of a human and woman, what would make Him God?

 

[Ivar]

Part 1 Sign

Isa 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

What is the sign?
Gen 1:14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:

Mat 2:1 Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judaea in the days of Herod the king, behold, there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem,
Mat 2:2 Saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him.

Mat 2:9 When they had heard the king, they departed; and, lo, the star, which they saw in the east, went before them, till it came and stood over where the young child was.
Mat 2:10 When they saw the star, they rejoiced with exceeding great joy.

In this context and according to the precepts the sign appears to be a light in the firmament of the heaven or a star.


@B-A-C
you asked a question and I provided and will provide the answer. it originally is post 20. my viewpoint is Joseph is the father according to the flesh and I articulated it with scripture.
The simpler the question the simpler the answer i will give. do you have another question on my stance? or scripture that you believe contradicts my stance.

 

[Sue D.]

@Hekuran
Interesting comment. Not asking you this question and expect no answer but one must wonder. Is it backslided or backhanded? Is it some sort of proverbial underhanded low jab and insult? Lol. Definitely seems like it can be taken as such. Just remember that you yourself are on this platform and the same can be said about you. Very interesting comment indeed. Especially when you are counted as being on this platform for almost a decade "Nov 2008"
Also consider "which applies to me to"
Matthew 12:36-37

Does it really matter how long a person has been in the forum?

It has sounded like you don't want Jesus Christ to be the promised Messiah.

Some time ago I was on a Forum where an individual was trying to discredit that it was actually Jesus Christ being born. That is was some other Jesus' birth being talked about. 'They' were still waiting for their promised Messiah to come. Maybe that's your position? Because in That case, your argumentation would make sense. Not Correct. But understandable.

 

[B-A-C]

Isa 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

What is the sign?
Gen 1:14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:

Isa says the "sign" is that a virgin will conceive and have a Son. It doesn't say anything about the sign being a star. You are adding that on your own.

Gen 1:4; says the "signs" (s - plural) are for the seasons, days and years, it doesn't say anything about the sign being for a Messiah here. You are adding that on your own as well.

 

[Sue D.]

@Sue D.
our conversation ends here. you are seemingly self imposing quite a few things on me. I myself have never asked anything about your personals. I only been conversing about the word and my beliefs thru that word. Everything I have backed up or showed correlation thru scripture. You can or could have either agreed or disagreed. You can or could explained why and leave it at that. I have only responded to support my argument and strengthen my argument. I have answered your questions to the best of my abilities thru scripture but you have avoided mines. I have also used your arguments to strengthen mines keeping on topic with the birth of Christ in the flesh "whether you agree or disagree".
Also for the fourth or fifth and final time the birth of Christ in the flesh does not strengthen or diminish his divinity or deity status.

Lastly The birth of Christ was not a miracle but prophecy. Whether the Jews believe in Jesus or not they all believe in the validity of Isaiah 7:14. The miracle or sign was the star not the birth.

The star was showing them where they could find the Christ child. Shepherds in the area knew the stars and 'this' star was different. Scripture says it was a miraculous birth -- because the young woman, Mary, was a virgin -- she was impregnated through the Holy Spirit. The 3rd person of the Trinity / Godhead. A man was Not involved -- as per Scripture.

@BAC -- actually -- the Matthew account chapter 2:1 -2 does mention a star "Where is the one who has been born king of the Jews?" We saw His star in the east and have come to worship Him."

 

[B-A-C]

@BAC -- actually -- the Matthew account chapter 2:1 -2 does mention a star "Where is the one who has been born king of the Jews?" We saw His star in the east and have come to worship Him."

I'm not arguing that point. But that was in Matthew, the new testament. Where is the OT prophecy of the star?

 

[Ivar]

I'm not arguing that point. But that was in Matthew, the new testament. Where is the OT prophecy of the star?

@B-A-C
No arguments; I specifically stated that " you asked a question and I provided and will provide the answer."

The old testament. Specifically Genesis 1:14 says that the lights of heaven which are the stars or luminaries are for signs and seasons "personal example; the North Star".
By studying and dividing the word we see the bigger picture.
It was a star and not the birth that alerted the Jews with Wisdom "Wise Men" that Christ was born.
Do not forget that the Old Testament are a shadow of things to come.

 

[Ivar]

@B-A-C

Isaiah 7:14 is two parts. Notice the ;

The semicolon or semi colon (;) is a punctuation mark that separates major sentence elements. A semicolon can be used between two closely related independent clauses, provided they are not already joined by a coordinating conjunction.

Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign Part 1 of 2
Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel. Part 2 of 2

Isa 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

If you think that the star is not the sign, miracle, or wonder then either we can agree to disagree or you can expound on your premise or stance. If we agree to disagree; then do you have any other questions for me in relation to my stance on Joseph being the father according to the flesh?

 

[Ivar]

I'm not arguing that point. But that was in Matthew, the new testament. Where is the OT prophecy of the star?

@B-A-C
Oh!!! Apologies. I did not notice that this particular question was not directed towards me. That is why I answered; I would have kept silent otherwise.

 

[Ivar]

Does it really matter how long a person has been in the forum?

It has sounded like you don't want Jesus Christ to be the promised Messiah.

Some time ago I was on a Forum where an individual was trying to discredit that it was actually Jesus Christ being born. That is was some other Jesus' birth being talked about. 'They' were still waiting for their promised Messiah to come. Maybe that's your position? Because in That case, your argumentation would make sense. Not Correct. But understandable.

@Sue D.
ok you are in apprehensive mode. There are various verses to find out someones stance.
A good way to find out someones position is if they acknowledge the following scripture.
1Jn 5:5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?
However their is emphasis on those being led by the spirit being a Son of God which we see in Rom 8:3
Romans 8:3 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

True unlike us Christ is special but not because Joseph was or was not the Father.

Also you can refer nonbelievers that believe in Old Testament to Isaiah 53 or the Great Isaiah scroll.

 

[Sue D.]

Ivar - how about this -- 1 Corinthians 15: 1-4 ---- "Now , brothers/ sisters/ I want to remind you of the Gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. By this Gospel you are saved....... that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that He was buried, that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures....... after that He appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers at the same time."

So -- Why would the death of Christ make any difference for our salvation. "By this Gospel you are saved".

And, yes, Christ is special -- in that He is the Son of God. And that is quite unlike you and I.

In what way Is Christ special from Your perspective?

Yes Isaiah 53 is a wonderful, sad, descriptive passage "He was despised and rejected by men........ He was pierced for our transgressions, He was crushed for our iniquities..... He was oppressed and afflicted, yet He did not open His mouth....
For he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors."

Of course there's a Lot more in that chapter.

It's vitally important that Mary was conceived of the Holy Spirit and NOT by/ through Joseph. It makes or breaks the deity of Jesus Christ. The meaning / importance of His death, burial and bodily resurrection.

 

[Sue D.]

I don't think there Was an Old Testament prophesy about the star. Does their need to be one? The prophesy is about a virgin conceiving and be called Immanuel.

 

[Ivar]

@Sue D.
I do believe is more important for Joseph to be the Father to not break scripture. Below is comprehensive recap so if we get into deity of Christ I don’t have to re-circle the wagon back into the birth of Christ.

[HASH=132]#1[[/HASH]/B] Mary referred to Joseph as Jesus father; and when Jesus said he was about his Fathers business they did not know what he was talking about

Luk 2:48 And when they saw him, they were amazed: and his mother said unto him, Son, why hast thou thus dealt with us? behold, thy father and I have sought thee sorrowing.

Luk 2:49 And he said unto them, How is it that ye sought me? wist ye not that I must be about my Father's business?

Luk 2:50 And they understood not the saying which he spake unto them.

Jesus was more than likely referring to the

Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.


[HASH=133]#2[[/HASH]/B] Christ was tempted like Man.

Heb 2:18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.


[HASH=134]#3[[/HASH]/B] Christ Had to be like unto his people

Heb 2:17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.


[HASH=135]#4[[/HASH]/B] To make Christ according to the flesh of “Adam" Man you need male and female

Gen 5:2 Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.

1Co 15:39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.


[HASH=136]#5[[/HASH]/B] The flesh of Man is Male and Female

Gen 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.


[HASH=137]#6[[/HASH]/B] The seed or sperma "greek" of David can only be passed thru his male offspring

Rom 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;


[HASH=138]#7[[/HASH]/B] Joseph lineage is of the throne of David ; not Mary

2Sa 7:13 He "Solomon" shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever.


[HASH=139]#8[[/HASH]/B] Joseph did not want to make Mary a publick example

Mat 1:19 Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing to make her a publick example, was minded to put her away privily.


[HASH=140]#9[[/HASH]/B] Perhaps Mary and Joseph before they came together in accordance with Hebrew tradition; Joseph penetrated Hymen and no Tokens of Virginity blanket could be given to Her Father . In any case context of before they came together not clearly given.

Mat 1:18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.

#10 Luke 1:31 to Luke 1:37 is before the conception which starts to be mentioned from Mat 1:18 “refer to scripture verses”


#11 Luk 1:37 is specifically talking about Luk 1:36

Luk 1:37 For with God nothing shall be impossible.

Luk 1:36 And, behold, thy cousin Elisabeth, she hath also conceived a son in her old age: andthis is the sixth month with her, who was called barren.


#12 All sons of man are born of the Holy Spirit “Theory that I don’t think I should try to explain"

So unless you have anything to add I will talk about the deity

 

[Curtis]

[HASH=135]#4[[/HASH]/B] To make Christ according to the flesh of “Adam" Man you need male and female

That is not true!!! If Joseph was Jesus's biological father he would have been born a sinner. Jesus was born without sin. The blood of a child (which is the life of the flesh) does not come from the mother, but from the father who had to be sinless.

Mat 1:18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.

Mat 1:19 Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing to make her a publick example, was minded to put her away privily.
Mat 1:20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.

 

[Ivar]

@Curtis
ok I agree to disagree with you. i already layed out my premise and if you disagree then so be it
All babies are born without sin or are blameless; Babies are innocent; As we grow however we can get rebellious or are able to be tempted because of our sin nature.
Christ was born into the flesh of Man therefore had that sin nature and could be tempted however he overcame all temptation and was blameless so became our perfect example.

All life is of the Holy Ghost. How do you think our spirit or soul is delivered into our temple/body? No need to answer though whether you agree or disagree.

 

[Curtis]

#12 All sons of man are born of the Holy Spirit “Theory that I don’t think I should try to explain"

No body on this earth is born of the Holy Spirit from a virgin except Jesus Christ!!

Jesus was not a "descendant" of Adam, but Mary was. God told the Serpent that it would be the "seed of the woman" who would crush his head.(Gen 3:15)

Jesus was God made man in the likeness of sinful flesh.

 

[Curtis]

All babies are born without sin or are blameless; Babies are innocent

No babies are born without sin!!! Every one is born with sin, or else Jesus would not have had to come to this earth!!

Psa 51:5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me.

Psa 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb; they go astray from birth, speaking lies.

 

[Curtis]

Christ was born into the flesh of Man

This is what is called "heretical" teaching. No Christian born of God would ever believe that!!!

 

[Ivar]

No body on this earth is born of the Holy Spirit from a virgin except Jesus Christ!! ok disagree
Jesus was not a "descendant" of Adam Disagree. Originally was not but became descendant of Adam thru taking on the Flesh of Man.
seed of woman = male child or offspring. The seed of the woman is of the Man.

Joh_1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
1Jn 4:12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.

Joh 1:34 And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God.

john bare record or testimony that he is the Son of God
Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

 

[Ivar]

This is what is called "heretical" teaching. No Christian born of God would ever believe that!!!

ok.
It would be convenient if you gather your entire premise in one post for me. please make it as simple and straightforward so i can go thru line by line
@Curtis