The prince of the power of the air: the spirit that works in the children of disobedience - Ephesians 2:2

[Christ4Ever]

Dear @Amethyst
It appears, the couple of verses you used, do not convince me, or so far anyone else that the Adversary is anything but in fact an actual Fallen Angel, and not just the Adamic Nature of man. There are too many Scripture verses that show this, in one form or another, or by one name or another. If you'd like to go over the more than 100 verses, and within the context of how they were used, show how they all are from the Adamic Nature of man only. You go for it Amethyst. Just looking at the word Devil in the Greek you will find it has 4 different spellings, used in 57 verses alone.

Understand that just making a statement like "The Devil is very simply a personification of the adamic nature of flesh and blood - " doesn't make it so in all instances, since which Greek word is being used to infer what you have said, is not the same word used in the Greek for Devil in all the other verses. To state that one specific word takes precedence of the other uses, or negates the other meanings, is to narrow the actual understanding of what Scripture is trying to convey.

It doesn't require me to have studied under any denomination to come to this understanding of Scripture. The Holy Spirit is a most excellent guide for my understanding. So, please don't generalize what "Christians of this era believe" or for that matter what they do not believe in total. It's an insult, to those who through self study, and Spiritual guidance have come to understand a fraction of what can be find in the Word of God. Knowing nothing of you personally, except that you've "been around the block a thousand times" gives voice to many experiences, and not many of them satisfying is my sense. However, I would still not lay them at your feet in a negative way, for I do not know what is in your heart, or what calling you may have or even the purpose of you coming to Talk Jesus to share your thoughts.

With that being said. Thank-you for sharing your thoughts with me, and though I don't agree with the position you hold. I do appreciate the sharing of it.

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
Nick
\o/
<><

 

[complete]

I know exactly how you believe, I've been around the block a thousand times and know exactly how christians of this era believe.
Again, if you have any substantive rebuttal to what I've provided from scripture, have at it.

Hello @Amethyst,

You do not know this believer, Amethyst. We are all responsible for ensuring that what we believe is actually the truth according to God's written word.

So, no! I will let the Scriptures themselves be the arbiter in regard to the belief you have expressed: and I'm sure you have a copy of that of your own. For I know that no words of mine will produce a change of mind.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Amethyst]

Dear @Amethyst
It appears, the couple of verses you used, do not convince me, or so far anyone else that the Adversary is anything but in fact an actual Fallen Angel, and not just the Adamic Nature of man. There are too many Scripture verses that show this, in one form or another, or by one name or another. If you'd like to go over the more than 100 verses, and within the context of how they were used, show how they all are from the Adamic Nature of man only. You go for it Amethyst. Just looking at the word Devil in the Greek you will find it has 4 different spellings, used in 57 verses alone.

Understand that just making a statement like "The Devil is very simply a personification of the adamic nature of flesh and blood - " doesn't make it so in all instances, since which Greek word is being used to infer what you have said, is not the same word used in the Greek for Devil in all the other verses. To state that one specific word takes precedence of the other uses, or negates the other meanings, is to narrow the actual understanding of what Scripture is trying to convey.

It doesn't require me to have studied under any denomination to come to this understanding of Scripture. The Holy Spirit is a most excellent guide for my understanding. So, please don't generalize what "Christians of this era believe" or for that matter what they do not believe in total. It's an insult, to those who through self study, and Spiritual guidance have come to understand a fraction of what can be find in the Word of God. Knowing nothing of you personally, except that you've "been around the block a thousand times" gives voice to many experiences, and not many of them satisfying is my sense. However, I would still not lay them at your feet in a negative way, for I do not know what is in your heart, or what calling you may have or even the purpose of you coming to Talk Jesus to share your thoughts.

With that being said. Thank-you for sharing your thoughts with me, and though I don't agree with the position you hold. I do appreciate the sharing of it.

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
Nick
\o/
<><







when there are over 100 other verses that directly state or infer the Being of the Fallen Angle that is identified with different names, but still the one and the same Adversary, and at one time favored of God.

You might try using at least one verse. You like others, here are in obvious denial of Ephesians 2:2
I've not even begun to share why Jesus called Peter, "Satan" or why he called Judas, a Devil.

You're far too baked in the cake of traditionalism.

Typical.

 

[Christ4Ever]

You're far too baked in the cake of traditionalism.

Typical.

Dear Amethyst,
Now for my other hat.
Your last line is uncalled for, and if you persist to attempt to denigrate any member here at Talk Jesus in this fashion, you'll receive a warning, and if it continues you'll be banned. This is a warning, in the most loving of fashions. For your comment was unnecessary, regardless of what you believe to be true, concerning those here. This is not the first post in which you've done this.

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
Moderator
Nick
\o/
<><
P.S. I'll be responding as a member to the pertinent content of your post here shortly.

 

[Christ4Ever]

You might try using at least one verse. You like others, here are in obvious denial of Ephesians 2:2
I've not even begun to share why Jesus called Peter, "Satan" or why he called Judas, a Devil.

You're far too baked in the cake of traditionalism.

Typical.

Dear Amethyst,
Here are four verses in which the word devil is used. Just so you know, there are many more of them. Now, in each verse the Greek word meaning is different for the word devil. You of course are welcome to address this as it does affect the foundation of what your position is since they each have a different definition. So you don't have to do all the research, I've already done, I've added the pertinent information for each word (bolded). That is, unless you don't trust me for this and would prefer to do it yourself to confirm its accuracy

Heb 2:14 KJV - Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

G1228 (Greek διάβολος )- prone to slander, slanderous, accusing falsely – a calumniator, false accuser, slanderer – metaph. Applied to a man who, by opposing the cause of God, may be said to act the part of the devil or to side with him.

Mat 4:24 KJV - And his fame went throughout all Syria: and they brought unto him all sick people that were taken with divers diseases and torments, and those which were possessed with devils, and those which were lunatick, and those that had the palsy; and he healed them.

G1139 (Greek δαιμονίζομαι ) - to be under the power of a demon

1Ti 4:1 KJV - Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

G1142 (Greek δαίμων) – a god, a goddess – an inferior deity, whether good or bad – in the NT, an evil spirit

Now you mention Ephesians 2:2, but Sister Chris @complete I believe addressed this rather well. Which by the way you did nothing to refute her exegesis of God's Word as it pertains to the verse given (post #11) by you. Your response in post #12 was as follows: "Yes, most think "the air" means the sky. I don't."

Now you may not have agreed with it, but just stating the above short response shows that you gave little consideration for its content, besides just a personal disagreement, and not a studied one. At least if you have one, this would have been the time to share it. This way the rebuttal could have been viewed side by side. Allowing readers to come to their own conclusion to the rightness of the position being discussed.

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
Nick
\o/
<><

 

[Amethyst]

Hello @Amethyst,

You do not know this believer, Amethyst. We are all responsible for ensuring that what we believe is actually the truth according to God's written word.

So, no! I will let the Scriptures themselves be the arbiter in regard to the belief you have expressed: and I'm sure you have a copy of that of your own. For I know that no words of mine will produce a change of mind.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Beyond all that, make sure THE DEVIL does not steal, kill and destroy you -
You can insure that by NOT "Living after the flesh unto death" - Romans 8:13.
The DEVIL will keep you from "mortifying the deeds of the body by the Spirit to live".
You know, "the spirit that works IN the children of disobedience" - those living after the flesh - The Five Foolish Virgins.

 

[complete]

Beyond all that, make sure THE DEVIL does not steal, kill and destroy you -
You can insure that by NOT "Living after the flesh unto death" - Romans 8:13.
The DEVIL will keep you from "mortifying the deeds of the body by the Spirit to live".
You know, "the spirit that works IN the children of disobedience" - those living after the flesh - The Five Foolish Virgins.

Hello again, @Amethyst,

Thank you for this word of caution.

Though God has placed me 'in Christ Jesus' (1 Corinthians 1:30), Who is far above all principality, power, might and dominion, and every name that is named both in this world and in that which is to come; so I have no fear that Satan will destroy me. However, I do acknowledge that we have to reckon as dead (ie., mortify) the deeds of the body, by reckoning ourselves to be dead indeed unto sin but alive unto God; and live accordingly.

Satan is the spirit that works in the children of disobedience as Ephesians 2:2 tells us. We, who have been delivered from the power of Satan, in Christ Jesus, are to walk in love, as did Christ our Saviour:-

'Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children;
And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us,
and hath given Himself for us
an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.
But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness,
let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;
Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting,
which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.
For this ye know, that no whoremonger,
nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater,
hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
Let no man deceive you with vain words:
for because of these things cometh the wrath of God
upon the children of disobedience.'
(Ephesians 5:1-5)

* Here again is a cautionary word.

* Though I have expressed disagreement concerning your thoughts regarding the enemy of our souls, I am nonetheless glad that you started this thread, for it has proved to be instructive.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[complete]

Hello @Christ4Ever,

I have read through your entries in this thread today, and found them very informative, and I fully intend to look up the various Greek and Hebrew words used for the enemy of our souls, and their Scriptural usage and context.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Born Again 2004]

Yes, but the difference being, in non-believers, he doesn't ask permission, they are his.
In believers Satan can only do what we let him do. (some believers let him do way too much).

Maybe they are not true believers?!

 

[Born Again 2004]

In other words, the God of this World works IN the children of disobedience, including christians.

One may mess up once in a while but it is a "Heart Thing" and only God determines that, NOT Man!
For example, I don't know of anyone personally, but I suspect there are some "Born Again" homosexuals out there, that truly are saved but might actually commit there sin again. A true non-believer , could care less about their sin ,But a true believer does...doesn't mean they don't still mess up ; God knows the difference.
If you really look at it, ALL Christian humans are disobedient....I would think that sin and disobedience are defined by God as anything He is not...after all He is perfect; we are not, atleast not yet!...someday we will know Him as well as He knows us!!!
The bottom line is that all Christians are sinful, the big difference is that we acknowledge when it happens and are working on it, but , when we do mess up, we don't go around beating our backs bloody with sticks...we know Jesus already took care of it for us and God is satisfied...He requires no further Atonement!
AMEN!

 

[Amethyst]

Hello again, @Amethyst,

Thank you for this word of caution.

Though God has placed me 'in Christ Jesus' (1 Corinthians 1:30), Who is far above all principality, power, might and dominion, and every name that is named both in this world and in that which is to come; so I have no fear that Satan will destroy me. However, I do acknowledge that we have to reckon as dead (ie., mortify) the deeds of the body, by reckoning ourselves to be dead indeed unto sin but alive unto God; and live accordingly.

Satan is the spirit that works in the children of disobedience as Ephesians 2:2 tells us. We, who have been delivered from the power of Satan, in Christ Jesus, are to walk in love, as did Christ our Saviour:-

'Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children;
And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us,
and hath given Himself for us
an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.
But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness,
let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;
Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting,
which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.
For this ye know, that no whoremonger,
nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater,
hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
Let no man deceive you with vain words:
for because of these things cometh the wrath of God
upon the children of disobedience.'
(Ephesians 5:1-5)

* Here again is a cautionary word.

* Though I have expressed disagreement concerning your thoughts regarding the enemy of our souls, I am nonetheless glad that you started this thread, for it has proved to be instructive.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

The wages of sin is death . . christians are dying all the time.
It goes much deeper than your cognitive dissonance will allow.
The obvious is staring you right in the face every day.

 

[Amethyst]

Dear Amethyst,
Here are four verses in which the word devil is used. Just so you know, there are many more of them. Now, in each verse the Greek word meaning is different for the word devil. You of course are welcome to address this as it does affect the foundation of what your position is since they each have a different definition. So you don't have to do all the research, I've already done, I've added the pertinent information for each word (bolded). That is, unless you don't trust me for this and would prefer to do it yourself to confirm its accuracy

Heb 2:14 KJV - Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

G1228 (Greek διάβολος )- prone to slander, slanderous, accusing falsely – a calumniator, false accuser, slanderer – metaph. Applied to a man who, by opposing the cause of God, may be said to act the part of the devil or to side with him.

Mat 4:24 KJV - And his fame went throughout all Syria: and they brought unto him all sick people that were taken with divers diseases and torments, and those which were possessed with devils, and those which were lunatick, and those that had the palsy; and he healed them.

G1139 (Greek δαιμονίζομαι ) - to be under the power of a demon

1Ti 4:1 KJV - Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

G1142 (Greek δαίμων) – a god, a goddess – an inferior deity, whether good or bad – in the NT, an evil spirit

Now you mention Ephesians 2:2, but Sister Chris @complete I believe addressed this rather well. Which by the way you did nothing to refute her exegesis of God's Word as it pertains to the verse given (post #11) by you. Your response in post #12 was as follows: "Yes, most think "the air" means the sky. I don't."

Now you may not have agreed with it, but just stating the above short response shows that you gave little consideration for its content, besides just a personal disagreement, and not a studied one. At least if you have one, this would have been the time to share it. This way the rebuttal could have been viewed side by side. Allowing readers to come to their own conclusion to the rightness of the position being discussed.

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
Nick
\o/"
<><

Also, have you noticed that those that try to teach on Lucifer in Isa 14:12, the latin name later used as a translation, NEVER teach verse 16 - "Is this the MAN, that made the earth to tremble?".
That man was Adam.

Get rid of the name Lucifer all together, since it was not used by Isaiah the prophet.
Also, you add to the word and state Satan "came in the form of a serpent" - which of course you believe to be a literal snake.
Tell me, where is he slithering about today? -
"That OLD SERPENT, WHO IS THE DEVIL AND SATAN" - REV 12:9.
Obviously, you don't believe there is a Spiritual Interpretation.
So where is he?

 

[Christ4Ever]

Also, have you noticed that those that try to teach on Lucifer in Isa 14:12, the latin name later used as a translation, NEVER teach verse 16 - "Is this the MAN, that made the earth to tremble?".
That man was Adam.

Get rid of the name Lucifer all together, since it was not used by Isaiah the prophet.
Also, you add to the word and state Satan "came in the form of a serpent" - which of course you believe to be a literal snake.
Tell me, where is he slithering about today? -
"That OLD SERPENT, WHO IS THE DEVIL AND SATAN" - REV 12:9.
Obviously, you don't believe there is a Spiritual Interpretation.
So where is he?

Dear Amethyst,
Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour: 1 Peter 5:8 KJV
And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. Revelation 12:10 KJV

Now, to the rest of what you've written. You can't help but be an accuser as well, can you? As if I were the one who added to the word of God! Which is not something nice to be accused of is it? Especially since you came here to this Forum, and started this discussion and know little about me or others here. This is why most times I have issue with generalizations, because it throws the baby out with the bathwater, and is insulting to those who read these postings that you have included in your all encompassing comments. It makes you appear to stand as the lone arbiter of God's Word. That may not be your intent, but that is how you appear to me with the addition of your off hand comments.

To answer your second question, which was not a question, but a statement "Obviously, you don't believe there is a Spiritual Interpretation.". Sure I do. You yourself have provided instances of this. I guess the differences between us is that I don't believe this is the case in all instances where the Adversary is mentioned, and it appears that you do. Am I right?

With that being said. I was wondering your thoughts on the variations of the Greek words, as it pertains to the Adversary?

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
Nick
\o/
<><

 

[complete]

The wages of sin is death . . christians are dying all the time.
It goes much deeper than your cognitive dissonance will allow.
The obvious is staring you right in the face every day.

Hello @Amethyst,

It would be so much better if you refrained from using personal comment.

* As for me, I know of no contradiction on this subject within the bounds of Scripture.
* Mankind, both believing and unbelieving do die, it cannot be avoided, for man is mortal. The believer only puts on immortality at the resurrection from the dead.
* Perhaps you should lay out your own case in Scriptural terms so that it can be considered,

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Amethyst]

Hello @Amethyst,

It would be so much better if you refrained from using personal comment.

* As for me, I know of no contradiction on this subject within the bounds of Scripture.
* Mankind, both believing and unbelieving do die, it cannot be avoided, for man is mortal. The believer only puts on immortality at the resurrection from the dead.
* Perhaps you should lay out your own case in Scriptural terms so that it can be considered,

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Fun to watch you avoid Romans 8:13 -
You've "made a covenant with death and hell" - Isaiah 28:15.
"They shall promise liberty, but are servants of corruption" - II Peter 2:19

No being "transformed by the renewing of the mind" for @complete -

 

[complete]

Also, have you noticed that those that try to teach on Lucifer in Isa 14:12, the latin name later used as a translation, NEVER teach verse 16 - "Is this the MAN, that made the earth to tremble?".
That man was Adam.

Get rid of the name Lucifer all together, since it was not used by Isaiah the prophet.
Also, you add to the word and state Satan "came in the form of a serpent" - which of course you believe to be a literal snake.
Tell me, where is he slithering about today? -
"That OLD SERPENT, WHO IS THE DEVIL AND SATAN" - REV 12:9.
Obviously, you don't believe there is a Spiritual Interpretation.
So where is he?

Hello there, @Amethyst,

*Isaiah 14 - is a prophecy concerning Israel's restoration in verses 1-3.
* In verses 4-11 - the Oppressor ceased.
* Isaiah 14: 9-12- is a figurative description of Sheol (the grave or the place of the dead), and dead people are represented as 'speaking', as being 'moved' or 'stirred'. That it is referring to the grave is clear from the reference to 'worms'. It is the taunt of the dead (figuratively).

* In Isaiah 14:12 that you refer to specifically, is in an address made (prophetically) to Babylon, ( or Chaldea generally ): In which the remnant of Israel taunts Babylon.
* Lucifer = the morning star - (in the sense of 'brightness')(v.12), was worshipped by the Assyrians, the male at sunrise, and the female at sunset. It is only used in this one place in Scripture. It is also spoken of as a name for Satan, though as yet I do not know with certainty why this name is given to Satan, though I can understand why it would be.

* With reference to the words of Isaiah 14:16:- 'is this the man, that made the earth to tremble?' Verses 16-19 is a figure of speech in which two persons are represented but only one speaker,

'They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee,
and consider thee, saying,
.. "Is this the man that made the earth to tremble,
.... that did shake kingdoms;
...... That made the world as a wilderness,
........ and destroyed the cities thereof;
.......... that opened not the house of his prisoners?"
All the kings of the nations, even all of them,
.. lie in glory,
.... every one in his own house.
But thou art cast out of thy grave
.. like an abominable branch,
.... and as the raiment of those that are slain,
...... thrust through with a sword,
........ that go down to the stones of the pit;
.......... as a carcase trodden under feet.'
(Isaiah 14:16-19)

* In 12-14, we see the oppressor fallen., and from 16-20 the taunt of the living; from 21-22 depopulation, and 14:23 devastation. Verses 24-32 is prophecy concerning Jehovah's purpose for, Assyria, Philistia and Israel.

* Why do you say that the man was Adam? For nowhere are we told that Adam made the earth to tremble, are we? I believe the man to be 'The King of Babylon' - though it may have a prophetic reference unknown to me at present.

* In Genesis 3, except for the figurative language of verses 14-15, no one would have thought of referring to the being of the 3rd chapter of Genesis as a snake no more than when reading the third chapter from the end of Revelation (ch.20:2). That verse in Revelation, takes us back to Genesis 3, for it refers to the 'old serpent', and tells us that it is the Devil and Satan. The Hebrew word rendered 'serpent' in Gen. 3:1 means 'a shining one'. So I believe it simply refers to the being's appearance, as 'a shining one', for it is also used for a celestial or spirit-being, In 2 Corinthians 11:3 Satan is spoken of as 'an angel of light'.

I have to go off-line now.

Thank you
Chris

 

[complete]

Fun to watch you avoid Romans 8:13 -
You've "made a covenant with death and hell" - Isaiah 28:15.
"They shall promise liberty, but are servants of corruption" - II Peter 2:19

No being "transformed by the renewing of the mind" for @complete -

Hello @Amethyst,

In regard to Romans 8:13, see reply #27, for though I did not refer to it, I responded to it's content.

May God's perfect will be done in each one of us, for His Name and glory's sake.

This is my last response to you.
Within the love of Christ our Saviour
our Lord and Head.
Chris

 

[Born Again 2004]

The wages of sin is death . . christians are dying all the time.
It goes much deeper than your cognitive dissonance will allow.
The obvious is staring you right in the face every day.

Sorry, but I have to chime in here! Your statement: "The wages of sin is death..
Christians are dying all the time"..
Is blatantly false or mis-leading at best.
"The wages of sin is death", is Spiritual Death and meant for non-believers, which for Nominal Christians, there are many...maybe those are the Christians you are referring to!?

 

[Amethyst]

Sorry, but I have to chime in here! Your statement: "The wages of sin is death..
Christians are dying all the time"..
Is blatantly false or mis-leading at best.
"The wages of sin is death", is Spiritual Death and meant for non-believers, which for Nominal Christians, there are many...maybe those are the Christians you are referring to!?

Yup, christians are "sowing to the flesh and reaping corruption" Galatians 6:8 -
Just like Billy Graham, unless he had a fake funeral.

 

[Born Again 2004]

Yup, christians are "sowing to the flesh and reaping corruption" Galatians 6:8 -
Just like Billy Graham, unless he had a fake funeral.

God decides...not you!