The Trinity does not exist - Undermines God's nature and the cross

[KingJ]

Hi all

This thread is an offshoot of this one False teaching to discuss the trinity.

_______________________________

The Trinity does not exist - Undermines God's nature and the cross

Islam for example accepts Jesus as a prophet. They state He can't be God as He prayed to God, He was crucified, He could not do miracles in certain places. There are a few Christians that teach the trinity is not mentioned in scripture and that Jesus is a completely separate person to God. Simply a son, not a God to be worshipped.

This is heresy of the highest order 10/10. Teaching from the pits of hell. A complete mockery of core Christianity, the significance of the cross. If we believe Jesus is not God, well then we believe God got some unlucky fella to come and die for all mankind. God does not really love us, this other random creation ''called a son'' does. God is kind of sick to make someone a lamb to the slaughter for people he did not create or know.

The trinity is at the core of Christianity. It is very important for Christians to know and believe this. The bible does not need to say ''trinity'' for it to be true.

God the Son, God the Holy Spirit and God the Father.

Regarding the accusations of Jesus: God made Himself flesh John 1:14. God did not 'cheat'. He experienced the A-Z of our temptations Heb 4:15. He could have called angels to help Him, He did not Matt 26:53. He was truly abandoned by God the Father Matt 27:46. He did not heal all as He wanted them to have faith Matt 13:58. God has never been one to perform fancy tricks like a clown for our amusement Matt 16:4. He made Himself a Lamb to the slaughter as a sign of respect to mankind Isa 53:7. He wants us to know that even though He could have done ''death'' the easy way (instant death), He did not. It's crazy that God of the universe would want to 'earn' our respect. God is such a good God. Worthy of all our praise and worship.

The only matter that I feel requires some very special insight, is grasping the fact that Jesus prayed to God. This link explains it soundly I believe If Jesus was God, how could He pray to God? Was Jesus praying to Himself? | GotQuestions.org.

Some scriptures that prove the trinity:

Isaiah 9:6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
John 5:18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.
John 10:30 I and the Father are one.
John 8:58 Jesus answered, “I tell you the truth, before Abraham was even born, I Am!
John 10:38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.
John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

 

[KingJ]

Sure we can start with what you just stated. The Trinity "I call it a terrible belief" Is this what you really meant to say?

@Samson2020

Not believing in the trinity is in my humble opinion is a very sick belief to have. It paints God with a terrible brush. One that completely and utterly misrepresents Him to the lost He loved and died for.

We need to be 'terrified' of misrepresenting God to the lost. If we do not fully grasp the trinity, that is fine. But then, keep quiet and do not become guilty of misrepresenting God to the lost.

Let's 'not' fail at our 'one' Christian job 2 Cor 5:20.

 

[Samson2020]

Would you mind defining Trinity for the discussions sake?

 

[joestue]

i like my analogy on this matter.

suppose i telepathically spoke to you, and you heard my voice, knew it was from me. and you posted here about it, confused.

would you not say "the spirit of joestue spoke to me saying.. such and such"

would you instead declare that i am two people, one being myself, the second being my spirit which must have "gasp" "astral projected" into your living space?
no of course not, you would not declare me to be two people. or a demon-human hybrid. those thoughts wouldn't even cross your mind.

btw, my ex did appear to me in a vision and speak to me, i then crossed paths with her 2 days later and she appeared to be astonished i had found her so quickly.. the rest of that story probably shouldn't be on the internet. Coincidence? We hadn't been within 6 feet of each other in 6 years and 5 months.

 

[KingJ]

Would you mind defining Trinity for the discussions sake?

The Christian doctrine of the Trinity (Latin: Trinitas, lit. 'triad', from Latin: trinus 'threefold') is the central dogma concerning the nature of God in most Christian churches, which defines one God existing in three coequal, coeternal, consubstantial divine persons: God the Father, God the Son (Jesus Christ) and God the Holy Spirit, three distinct persons sharing one homoousion (essence) "each is God, complete and whole.

Trinity - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[YourWordIsTruth]

Hi all

This thread is an offshoot of this one False teaching to discuss the trinity.

_______________________________

The Trinity does not exist - Undermines God's nature and the cross

Islam for example accepts Jesus as a prophet. They state He can't be God as He prayed to God, He was crucified, He could not do miracles in certain places. There are a few Christians that teach the trinity is not mentioned in scripture and that Jesus is a completely separate person to God. Simply a son, not a God to be worshipped.

This is heresy of the highest order 10/10. Teaching from the pits of hell. A complete mockery of core Christianity, the significance of the cross. If we believe Jesus is not God, well then we believe God got some unlucky fella to come and die for all mankind. God does not really love us, this other random creation ''called a son'' does. God is kind of sick to make someone a lamb to the slaughter for people he did not create or know.

The trinity is at the core of Christianity. It is very important for Christians to know and believe this. The bible does not need to say ''trinity'' for it to be true.

God the Son, God the Holy Spirit and God the Father.

Regarding the accusations of Jesus: God made Himself flesh John 1:14. God did not 'cheat'. He experienced the A-Z of our temptations Heb 4:15. He could have called angels to help Him, He did not Matt 26:53. He was truly abandoned by God the Father Matt 27:46. He did not heal all as He wanted them to have faith Matt 13:58. God has never been one to perform fancy tricks like a clown for our amusement Matt 16:4. He made Himself a Lamb to the slaughter as a sign of respect to mankind Isa 53:7. He wants us to know that even though He could have done ''death'' the easy way (instant death), He did not. It's crazy that God of the universe would want to 'earn' our respect. God is such a good God. Worthy of all our praise and worship.

The only matter that I feel requires some very special insight, is grasping the fact that Jesus prayed to God. This link explains it soundly I believe If Jesus was God, how could He pray to God? Was Jesus praying to Himself? | GotQuestions.org.

Some scriptures that prove the trinity:

Isaiah 9:6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
John 5:18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.
John 10:30 I and the Father are one.
John 8:58 Jesus answered, “I tell you the truth, before Abraham was even born, I Am!
John 10:38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.
John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

In both the Old and New Testaments, it is very clear, that God is not one Person, not "Unitarian", but Three distinct Persons, united in one Divine Essence or Nature. I have just posted a study on the Hebrew word for God, "Elohim", which is very clear on the nature of the God of the Holy Bible

 

[KingJ]

i like my analogy on this matter.

suppose i telepathically spoke to you, and you heard my voice, knew it was from me. and you posted here about it, confused.

would you not say "the spirit of joestue spoke to me saying.. such and such"

would you instead declare that i am two people, one being myself, the second being my spirit which must have "gasp" "astral projected" into your living space?
no of course not, you would not declare me to be two people. or a demon-human hybrid. those thoughts wouldn't even cross your mind.

That could work with the Holy Spirit. But not Jesus. Trinity gets a bit more complex as a result.

 

[Samson2020]

one God existing in three coequal, coeternal, consubstantial divine persons:

You use the word co-equal. My question then would be how is Jesus Christ Co-Equal with the Father if He Himself says
that the Father is GREATER than I. John 14:28
Also we read in Rev 3:14 that Jesus is the BEGINNING OF THE CREATION OF GOD.
And again in Heb 1:4 Being MADE so much better than the angels..............
Heb 1:9 God speaking to Jesus says. God, even thy God has anointed you with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
1 Co 15:27 For He(God) has put all things under His(Jesus') feet. But when He(God) saith all things are put under Him(Jesus) it is manifest that He(God) is excepted, which did
put all things under Him(Jesus).

These are but a few verses that suggest Jesus Is not co-equal with His Father entirely. Indeed He was created, made, and is in subjection to His Father . He is our BROTHER
and His God is our God and His Father is our Father. John 20:17

Now if we look carefully at the wording we notice that Jesus was the beginning of Gods creation thus Jesus has a beginning, on the other hand God who did the creating existed
before the Son. Same applies to you and your children. They may grow up to be able to do everything you can do, even procreate, but they are still not you. They are independent
beings. So is Jesus as He is the Son of God that is a God. And that should not surprise anyone in that a puppy grows up to be a dog, a baby grows up to be an adult human,
kind after kind. Jesus was the first to be born of the Spirit of God at Jordan and once His gestational period(perfecting) was complete He was declared to be what His Father is
a God. So there is no denying the Diety of Jesus it is only a matter of when did that occur. After His resurrection?

Isaiah 9:6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

The government of the Sons kingdom will indeed have no end but the Son is still in subjection to His Father.
He will be called wonderful Counselor. Heb 5:9 And having been PERFECTED He BECAME the author of salvation to all who obey Him. Counsel through our dependence upon
Him to finish our faith, for we wish to be like Him and He is the source of what we need to achieve that goal.
Mighty God- The Hebrew word used here is Gibor.
God is the Almighty God-Shaddai There is a difference in the words used to describe each.
Everlasting Father. Jesus Christ has entered eternal life thus death hath no dominion over Him. It is His overcoming Spirit combined with the Spirit of God that is put into our hearts
causing us to be born from above, and gives us the power to overcome the world. In this way He is seen as a Father to the children whom God has given Him.
Hebrews 2:13 "He also said, "I will put my trust in Him," that is, "I and the children God has given Me."
Prince of peace- Jesus has made peace with everything by His willing sacrifice of Himself. Col 1:20

John 5:18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

Misrepresented statement. It was the Jews who said that He made Himself equal with God. It wasn't Jesus making that statement. He had upheld the position that God was greater
than He, and that He was the Son of God. Not the only true God. John 10:34-36

John 10:30 I and the Father are one

Yes and so is everyone whom is joined unto the Lord. 1 Co 6:17 "But the person who is joined to the Lord is one Spirit with Him." For we are all joined via the self same Spirit
of the Father.

John 8:58 Jesus answered, “I tell you the truth, before Abraham was even born, I Am!

Yes He was as He was the beginning of the creation of God. Rev 3:14 His own words.

John 10:38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

And which of the early Apostles did not appear to do the same miracles He did? Paul is our best example, Peter as well, in that God was with them and In them performing the works.
Acts 19:11 and 3:6 Even as Jesus stated the works that were done were done by the Father not Him. John 14:10
Jesus is the example of what a born again Christian should be. A proclaimer of the kingdom of God, preaching the word of reconciliation.

That word reconciliation is a good one in that you could not be reconciled unless you previously knew the one that you were being reconciled to.
We came out from God, have our existence in God, and return to God. So if we came out from God who were we before we came out?

I believe Jesus answers that question when He states "Is it not written in your law, I said, ye are gods? And in Psalms 82:6 I have said, Ye are gods, and ALL of you are children
of the Most High.
If we are children of God then we must also grow up in all aspects into the image of the firstborn Son who Himself is proclaimed to be God, by God. The end result is to know the
love of Christ that we may be filled with ALL THE FULLNESS of God. Jesus was given the Spirit without measure and when ALL the fullness of God resides in us we would be
equal with God in the sense that there is nothing past the fullness of God, but yet we would not be our own Father, and neither was Jesus.

The idea of CO EQUAL and CO ETERNAL is not there. As Jesus remains in subjection to the Father and Jesus was/is the beginning of the creation of God.
A created being never is co equal with its creator. However, as a Son who is born of the Spirit of God He is qualified to be extremely close to equal to His Father.
This idea is the reason for what God has done over many many yrs. He is birthing sons that will possess His fullness at the second coming of Jesus Christ as this
is when they are perfected. Just as Jesus was PERFECTED then BECAME the author..... They too are perfected and possess all the attributes of their Father and brother, but
they are independent beings who are one in Spirit with each other by the bond of unfathomable LOVE.

 

[Beetow]

That which began as a trio became a quad when the Word's man was endowed with
the name, the rank, the power, and the recognition of God per Dan 7:13-14 and
Phil 2:9-11.

Now the thing is: the Word's man wasn't born divine, but he certainly is now and
folks who refuse to bow to him the same as they'd bow to God are failing to give
God's name the respect it deserves; which would be tantamount to the people of
Egypt refusing to honor the signet ring given by Pharaoh to Joseph.

* The concept of a quad isn't new. It was introduced in the first chapter of Ezekiel
where Jehovah is depicted as a four-fold being.
_

 

[KingJ]

Samson, you are coming across like an olympic runner who has grabbed his torch and is unfortunately running in the completely wrong direction.

There are a few 'ground' rules you need to 'firmly' establish in your mind before you run into scripture and formulate what is a terrible view.

1. There is only one God 1 Cor 8:6.

This fact really needs to sink in for a discussion to take place.

2. This one God is a jealous God and will strike us down if we have any other god before Him Exo 20:3 and all of Exo 32.

Non-trinity believers should teach us that if we were to worship Jesus in anyway, we will be struck down as it would be a pagan religion. Disobeying the second commandment. Imagine that.

3. Jesus is God made flesh Isa 9:6, John 1:14.

Whenever people make statements about limitations on Jesus when He is supposed to be ''God'', it shows that they do not grasp the fact that scripture clearly says, He was made flesh.

You use the word co-equal. My question then would be how is Jesus Christ Co-Equal with the Father if He Himself says
that the Father is GREATER than I. John 14:28

He was made flesh.

Also we read in Rev 3:14 that Jesus is the BEGINNING OF THE CREATION OF GOD.
And again in Heb 1:4 Being MADE so much better than the angels..............
Heb 1:9 God speaking to Jesus says. God, even thy God has anointed you with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

What is your point? Please state it simply.

1 Co 15:27 For He(God) has put all things under His(Jesus') feet. But when He(God) saith all things are put under Him(Jesus) it is manifest that He(God) is excepted, which did
put all things under Him(Jesus).

So you read this as God made another god and is ok with that? So you believe in two gods?

This simply speaks to the fact that God the Son is linked 100% to the creation of mankind. You need Eph 1:4 for context. Namely to grasp that God could / would not make mankind unless they had a redemption plan.

Eph 1:4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight.

These are but a few verses that suggest Jesus Is not co-equal with His Father entirely. Indeed He was created, made, and is in subjection to His Father . He is our BROTHER
and His God is our God and His Father is our Father. John 20:17

Jesus is God the flesh. God chose to put limitations on Him. Really not that hard to understand. It shows mankind that God takes His dealings with us very seriously. He is very respectful. He did not need to be a Lamb to the slaughter, but He chose to be. This tells us a lot about our God.

Jesus was in subjection to the Father as He was in the flesh 100%. It was God's plan to experience all temptations as humans do Heb 4:15.

The 'brother' scriptures have been discussed many times. You are cherry picking a word in a scripture and not grasping full context. This link explains it Is Jesus our brother? | GotQuestions.org.

Now if we look carefully at the wording we notice that Jesus was the beginning of Gods creation thus Jesus has a beginning,

Please point this out. I don't see it. Only that we were planned with Jesus in this creation of mankind. It does not say that that was the beginning of Jesus. You are adding to scripture what is not there.

Same applies to you and your children. They may grow up to be able to do everything you can do, even procreate, but they are still not you. They are independent
beings. So is Jesus as He is the Son of God that is a God. And that should not surprise anyone in that a puppy grows up to be a dog, a baby grows up to be an adult human,
kind after kind. Jesus was the first to be born of the Spirit of God at Jordan and once His gestational period(perfecting) was complete He was declared to be what His Father is
a God. So there is no denying the Diety of Jesus it is only a matter of when did that occur. After His resurrection?

Conjecture.

The government of the Sons kingdom will indeed have no end but the Son is still in subjection to His Father.

Conjecture.

He will be called wonderful Counselor. Heb 5:9 And having been PERFECTED He BECAME the author of salvation to all who obey Him. Counsel through our dependence upon
Him to finish our faith, for we wish to be like Him and He is the source of what we need to achieve that goal.

He became God, because He was initially made God the flesh. Not hard to understand.

Mighty God- The Hebrew word used here is Gibor.
God is the Almighty God-Shaddai There is a difference in the words used to describe each.

Jesus revealed Himself to Moses as El Shaddai Jesus Christ is El Shaddai and Jehovah - BibleTruths.

Everlasting Father. Jesus Christ has entered eternal life thus death hath no dominion over Him.

Are you implying that there was a possibility Jesus would not have eternal life?

Matt 26:53 is clear that Jesus could escape but He chose not to.

It is His overcoming Spirit combined with the Spirit of God that is put into our hearts

What? We have two beings in us? Scripture?

That's enough for today, I will respond to the rest later.

 

[rstrats]

Not that it proves anything of course, but with regard to the Trinity I think it's interesting to note that Paul never once includes the Holy Spirit in any of his letter's salutations.
Also, can the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit converse back and forth among themselves? And can God join in when He wishes?

 

[KingJ]

Not that it proves anything of course, but with regard to the Trinity I think it's interesting to note that Paul never once includes the Holy Spirit in any of his letter's salutations.
Also, can the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit converse back and forth among themselves? And can God join in when He wishes?

Understanding the workings of God within the trinity is hard. That is why many don't believe it. But, this view is on par with saying God does not exist as we cannot understand how He came to exist.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

You use the word co-equal. My question then would be how is Jesus Christ Co-Equal with the Father if He Himself says

How? In three PRESENCEs. God is present in heaven, Holy Spirit is on earth in every believer, Christ is the WAY in between - the one and only way. Trinity is not just a theology, a belief, a doctrine or a myth, it's the only mechanism that works. What I mean by that is, only can God be known through Christ, and the Holy Spirit directs you to Christ. Without Christ, all you've got is man-made idols, you'd never know the Creator of the Universe.

 

[Samson2020]

How? In three PRESENCEs. God is present in heaven, Holy Spirit is on earth in every believer, Christ is the WAY in between - the one and only way. Trinity is not just a theology, a belief, a doctrine or a myth, it's the only mechanism that works. What I mean by that is, only can God be known through Christ, and the Holy Spirit directs you to Christ. Without Christ, all you've got is man-made idols, you'd never know the Creator of the Universe.

Thats a nice way of explaining the way the three work together, but it does not answer the question asked.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

Thats a nice way of explaining the way the three work together, but it does not answer the question asked.

This may put a target on my back, but to be honest, since Yeshua the son is at the right hand of the father, he may NOT be coequal with the father. The son always honors the father, fully obeys the father, and never challenges the father, That doesn’t mean he’s inferior or created, don’t get me wrong, it’s still a trinity and works in unison, otherwise Satan wouldn’t counterfeit it.

 

[Samson2020]

This may put a target on my back, but to be honest, since Yeshua the son is at the right hand of the father, he may NOT be coequal with the father. The son always honors the father, fully obeys the father, and never challenges the father, That doesn’t mean he’s inferior or created, don’t get me wrong, it’s still a trinity and works in unison, otherwise Satan wouldn’t counterfeit it.

You are correct it will put a target on your back. But not by me.
Jesus emptied Himself and became a servant, and Jesus also said that the servant is not GREATER than his master, Nor the servant above his Lord. It is enough
for the disciple that he be as his master and the servant AS HIS LORD.
This should give a new understanding to "God, even THY GOD, hath anointed thee..., and unto the Son He(God) saith thy throne O God is forever and ever
because thou hast loved righteousness and hated iniquity.............
Would it be possible to hate iniquity until the creation was plunged into iniquity by the design of God?
Did iniquity exist before the creation? My answer would be no in that satan was cast TO EARTH, part of the creation.
Thus the Son would not have had the opportunity to hate iniquity until His sojourn upon the earth, and then would His kingdom become His kingdom.
He had to be perfected by His Father just like you and I in order to rule the creation, and we are in need of the same perfecting to be rulers with Him.
Heb 5:9

The highlighted portion of your post, could you explain that? Satan counterfeit trinity??

 

[KingJ]

You are correct it will put a target on your back. But not by me.
Jesus emptied Himself and became a servant, and Jesus also said that the servant is not GREATER than his master, Nor the servant above his Lord. It is enough
for the disciple that he be as his master and the servant AS HIS LORD.
This should give a new understanding to "God, even THY GOD, hath anointed thee..., and unto the Son He(God) saith thy throne O God is forever and ever
because thou hast loved righteousness and hated iniquity.............
Would it be possible to hate iniquity until the creation was plunged into iniquity by the design of God?
Did iniquity exist before the creation? My answer would be no in that satan was cast TO EARTH, part of the creation.
Thus the Son would not have had the opportunity to hate iniquity until His sojourn upon the earth, and then would His kingdom become His kingdom.
He had to be perfected by His Father just like you and I in order to rule the creation, and we are in need of the same perfecting to be rulers with Him.
Heb 5:9

The highlighted portion of your post, could you explain that? Satan counterfeit trinity??

You just repeatedly show that you do not understand God in the 'flesh'.

Do you worship Jesus? Do you know that God is a jealous God and wants us to worship only Him?

 

[Samson2020]

You just repeatedly show that you do not understand God in the 'flesh'.

Do you worship Jesus? Do you know that God is a jealous God and wants us to worship only Him?

I'm pretty sure my response was not to you.
But to answer your question I quote Paul:
1 Ti 1:2 "......Grace, mercy, and peace from God our Father, AND Jesus Christ our Lord."

If the two were one and the same as you suggest, why does Paul open nearly every letter he writes giving thanks to two individual entities? Always calling
one God or Father, and the other Lord, and never combining the two or calling Jesus our Father or God?

And "When He(God) bringeth in the first BEGOTTEN into the world, He(God) saith, let all the angels OF GOD worship Him(the first begotten)"

I'm not really sure where we ever got the idea that God would, in scripture, give lineages using the word "begotten" of, meaning the Father of, in the flesh,
and that NOT apply to His own Son. Somehow the first begotten of God was God so that God really never had a son in your scenario.
Jesus was a man period, just as we all are, this was the only way He could be tempted like as we are in all respects. As God cannot be tempted with evil.

Indeed, rightly dividing the word is most difficult for some.

 

[KingJ]

I'm pretty sure my response was not to you.
But to answer your question I quote Paul:
1 Ti 1:2 "......Grace, mercy, and peace from God our Father, AND Jesus Christ our Lord."

If the two were one and the same as you suggest, why does Paul open nearly every letter he writes giving thanks to two individual entities? Always calling
one God or Father, and the other Lord, and never combining the two or calling Jesus our Father or God?

And "When He(God) bringeth in the first BEGOTTEN into the world, He(God) saith, let all the angels OF GOD worship Him(the first begotten)"

I'm not really sure where we ever got the idea that God would, in scripture, give lineages using the word "begotten" of, meaning the Father of, in the flesh,
and that NOT apply to His own Son. Somehow the first begotten of God was God so that God really never had a son in your scenario.
Jesus was a man period, just as we all are, this was the only way He could be tempted like as we are in all respects. As God cannot be tempted with evil.

Indeed, rightly dividing the word is most difficult for some.

Yet again, you are not grasping.

1. There is only one God 1 Cor 8:6.

2. This one God is a jealous God and will strike us down if we have any other god before Him Exo 20:3 and all of Exo 32.

3. Jesus is God made flesh Isa 9:6, John 1:14.

 

[KingJ]

1 Ti 1:2 "......Grace, mercy, and peace from God our Father, AND Jesus Christ our Lord."

Lord = God

Exo 8:10 There is no one like the Lord our God.

The verse you gave is simply making the point that we know God as Jesus. You need to grasp the basics s explained in the post above and not get so lost in reading verses like this.