The Trinity does not exist - Undermines God's nature and the cross

[Victor VanHeerden]

However, 2 Co 11:3 "But I fear, lest somehow, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, so your minds may be CORRUPTED FROM THE SIMPLICITY
THAT IS IN CHRIST."

Yep.

However its just as easy to suffer from over simplified logic when considering the Trinity. Like the first Church heresy.

Sabellianism/Modalism

Modalism suggests that the Trinity has three aspects or manifestations of one person. Thus the Father could present himself as the Son, and in turn the Son could be manifested as the Spirit.

This is simply logical thinking at play. But is wrong.

Theologians have to resort to calling it a mystery.

Why?

Because it is logically incoherent.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

You have added information where none was provided.

Jesus said some sin could not be forgive. He didn't say he will not forgive intentional sin . (Which applies to a whole lot more)

“You’ll see me NO MORE until you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!’ “ If you think that’s limited to the Pharisees and scribes to whom He just delivered seven woes, think again. Yes, intentional sin can be forgiven, but it won’t be until the sinner has suffered all consequences of it and then truly repents.

 

[joestue]

“You’ll see me NO MORE until you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!’ “ If you think that’s limited to the Pharisees and scribes to whom He just delivered seven woes, think again. Yes, intentional sin can be forgiven, but it won’t be until the sinner has suffered all consequences of it and then truly repents.

So is blasphemy against yhwh or the holy Spirit forgivable if it wasn't intentional.

 

[KingJ]

Oh I see it now.

Dogs AND cats are really just DOGS by your interpretation of the English Language.

You have the line wrong. I start my sentence to you with ''there is one animal'. You interpret it as though there is a dog and a cat.

I guess I still have a problem with "My Father is GREATER than I" And "I ascend unto My God and your God, and to My Father and your Father."

That is Jesus speaking whilst He was still on earth in the flesh. As I said in my first post to you, you need to grasp that God the Son placed limitations on Himself.

If Jesus calls His Father His God, do you not make Him a liar by saying He is actually God. And if "My Father is greater than I", does not that verse out of His mouth identify 2 different entities?

You need to really try understand God the Son. Paul sheds some light here. Please try grasp the underlined.

Phil 2:6-8 Christ Jesus, who, though He was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. And being found in human form, He humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross”

According to you the ONLY TRUE GOD sent Himself. Bible refutes that in that GOD SENT HIS only BEGOTTEN SON.
BEGOTTEN means to be born of, generate OFFSPRING(children)

Wow!!

God became flesh. The path to doing this was to create Jesus.

__________________________

You need to grasp that the Holy Spirit gives us a revelation of Jesus being Lord, without it, nobody can truly call Jesus Lord 1 Cor 12:3.

This is why many battle with the trinity I believe. Most do not see Jesus as deity to be worshiped.

________________________

Please share your exact belief in simple terms. I am not sure of what you actually believe.

1. Do you believe there is one God?
2. Do you believe God is a jealous God that does not like us worshiping other gods?
3. Do you believe Jesus can and should be worshiped?
4. Do you see a difference between the word Lord and God? IE Do you think calling someone Lord would cause conflict with a jealous God?
5. Do you believe the Holy Spirit is a deity?

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

So is blasphemy against yhwh or the holy Spirit forgivable if it wasn't intentional.

If it’s blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, then it must be intentional. That’s what the Pharisees did, denying his power which they saw with their own eyes and attributing that to the devil. In stark contrast, when the centurion who just crucified Yeshua saw the darkened sky and felt the shaky ground, he immediately repented, “truly this is the Son of God!” That’s why he deserved forgiveness and the Pharisees didn’t.

 

[joestue]

If it’s blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, then it must be intentional. That’s what the Pharisees did, denying his power which they saw with their own eyes and attributing that to the devil.

Once again. Adding stuff to scripture.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

Once again. Adding stuff to scripture.

Man, isn’t that the context of “unforgivable sin” which you have acknowledged?

 

[joestue]

Man, isn’t that the context of “unforgivable sin” which you have acknowledged?

No, the point is blasphemy against Jesus is forgivable because Jesus has the power to forgive sins.

But not sin against YHWh or the Holy Spirit (my opinion they are the same person) because it never was forgivable. This was originally explained in the Torah in at least one place, and Jesus reiterates it to show that the Holy Spirit is also God.

Basically authority flows from the top down.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

No, the point is blasphemy against Jesus is forgivable because Jesus has the power to forgive sins.

But not sin against YHWh or the Holy Spirit (my opinion they are the same person) because it never was forgivable. This was originally explained in the Torah in at least one place, and Jesus reiterates it to show that the Holy Spirit is also God.

Basically authority flows from the top down.

I don't think so, parable of the prodigal son states otherwise. Please note that although the prodigal son was forgiven, he was not spared from punishment. When the father promised the older son, "all I have is yours", that implies the older son has the right to receive all that's left, there's nothing more for the younger son, he has already received his share of inheritance, and all of that was squandered off on prostitutes.

 

[KingJ]

So is blasphemy against yhwh or the holy Spirit forgivable if it wasn't intentional.

Correct. Intention is everything. 1 Sam 16:7 But the LORD said to Samuel, “Don't judge by his appearance or height, for I have rejected him. The LORD doesn't see things the way you see them. People judge by outward appearance, but the LORD looks at the heart.

 

[KingJ]

If it’s blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, then it must be intentional. That’s what the Pharisees did, denying his power which they saw with their own eyes and attributing that to the devil. In stark contrast, when the centurion who just crucified Yeshua saw the darkened sky and felt the shaky ground, he immediately repented, “truly this is the Son of God!” That’s why he deserved forgiveness and the Pharisees didn’t.

Many who intentionally blaspheme the Holy Spirit have no clue what they are doing. Their 'intention' hardly hits a depth of intent of 'hatred' for God.

There was a worldwide ' blaspheme the Holy Spirit and secure a place in hell' competition among atheists on their forums a couple years back. There is little to no intention of 'hatred' to God with this.

After a number of discussions on this site, it is crystal clear to me that blaspheming the Holy Spirit is rejecting His advances to reveal Jesus to us. IE It is a sin on par with rejecting Jesus. For someone to fully reject Jesus, requires constant grieving of the Holy Spirit. Not simply typing a sentence of cursing the Holy Spirit on the internet. In my humble opinion that is .

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

Many who intentionally blaspheme the Holy Spirit have no clue what they are doing. Their 'intention' hardly hits a depth of intent of 'hatred' for God.

There was a worldwide ' blaspheme the Holy Spirit and secure a place in hell' competition among atheists on their forums a couple years back. There is little to no intention of 'hatred' to God with this.

After a number of discussions on this site, it is crystal clear to me that blaspheming the Holy Spirit is rejecting His advances to reveal Jesus to us. IE It is a sin on par with rejecting Jesus. For someone to fully reject Jesus, requires constant grieving of the Holy Spirit. Not simply typing a sentence of cursing the Holy Spirit on the internet. In my humble opinion that is .

Any blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is intentional, it's like perjury, bearing false witness against your neighbor. When an eyewitness does that in a court of law, they know exactly what they're doing.

 

[KingJ]

Any blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is intentional, it's like perjury, bearing false witness against your neighbor. When an eyewitness does that in a court of law, they know exactly what they're doing.

How would you define blasphemy of the Holy Spirit?

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

How would you define blasphemy of the Holy Spirit?

Sinning against God with full knowdge and personal experience of God's goodness. The only question is whether they can still be forgiven if they truly repent. Judging by the Lord's letters to the five angels of the five bad churches, I think the answer is YES - for those who still have an ear to hear.

 

[Samson2020]

The verse you gave is simply making the point that we know God as Jesus.

Then lets toss in
Mark 12:36 "For David himself speaking by inspiration of the Holy Spirit, said The Lord(God), said to my Lord(Jesus), sit in the place of honor
at my right hand until I humble your enemies beneath your feet."

In the days when David said that, the name of Jesus was unknown, so David spoke of Jesus as Lord, but also shows that his Lord(Jesus) was being spoken to by
another Lord that was greater than his Lord(Jesus). Obviously a vision of future events.

Thus when Paul salutes the Churches with "Grace, and peace from God the Father, AND our Lord Jesus Christ.' He is identifying 2 different entities just as David
did. Both Paul and David Identify Jesus as their Lord as do I, after all no man can call Jesus Christ Lord with out the Holy Spirit.
We identify one Lord of us all who also has a LORD-His Father (God).
This agrees with the subjection of the Son to the Father after all things are put under the Sons feet.

2 different individuals that are extremely similar. But one is greater than the other.
And if one is greater than the other then they are not co-equal, nor are they one and the same.

 

[joestue]

Correct. Intention is everything. 1 Sam 16:7 But the LORD said to Samuel, “Don't judge by his appearance or height, for I have rejected him. The LORD doesn't see things the way you see them. People judge by outward appearance, but the LORD looks at the heart.

That verse doesn't say anything about intentions.

As for the atheists blasphemy... You have changed the definition of the word if you say they can be forgiven.

 

[KingJ]

Then lets toss in
Mark 12:36 "For David himself speaking by inspiration of the Holy Spirit, said The Lord(God), said to my Lord(Jesus), sit in the place of honor
at my right hand until I humble your enemies beneath your feet."

In the days when David said that, the name of Jesus was unknown, so David spoke of Jesus as Lord, but also shows that his Lord(Jesus) was being spoken to by
another Lord that was greater than his Lord(Jesus). Obviously a vision of future events.

Thus when Paul salutes the Churches with "Grace, and peace from God the Father, AND our Lord Jesus Christ.' He is identifying 2 different entities just as David
did. Both Paul and David Identify Jesus as their Lord as do I, after all no man can call Jesus Christ Lord with out the Holy Spirit.
We identify one Lord of us all who also has a LORD-His Father (God).
This agrees with the subjection of the Son to the Father after all things are put under the Sons feet.

2 different individuals that are extremely similar. But one is greater than the other.
And if one is greater than the other then they are not co-equal, nor are they one and the same.

Please answer the bottom part of my post 44 before we discuss this matter here.

 

[Victor VanHeerden]

Please share your exact belief in simple terms. I am not sure of what you actually believe.

1. Do you believe there is one God?
2. Do you believe God is a jealous God that does not like us worshiping other gods?
3. Do you believe Jesus can and should be worshiped?
4. Do you see a difference between the word Lord and God? IE Do you think calling someone Lord would cause conflict with a jealous God?
5. Do you believe the Holy Spirit is a deity?

It would appear ,although i could be mistaken, that his understanding is compatible with Unitarianism which of course he is entitled to and it is a nontrinitarian branch of Christian theology. It teaches that God is simply one (unity) and rejects the doctrines of the Trinity and the deity of Christ.

 

[Sue D.]

This is an interesting discussion.

 

[Christ4Ever]

Dear Posters,
Once again a thread against the Trinity. When each of you joined Talk Jesus, it was with the understanding that the Statement of Faith would be abided by.
Since it is not, my suggestion for those who do not believe in the Trinity is to keep it to themselves or seek a site that is willing to accommodate your beliefs on the subject.

If you have any issues with my actions; you are welcome to send me a Private Message and we can discuss why the closing of the thread has happened. As it is, I'll be closing this thread for any further replies.

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
Moderator
Nick
\o/
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