The trinity
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muarader64
Member
No man has seen God at ANY time: God is not a man, nor a man God. Neither is the Son of God, God himself, neither are angels God himself. God is the creator of all things. The Almighty God is unbegotten; his Word, even The Word of God: Jesus Christ, is begotten, being God's only begotten son.
Christ Jesus said in a time far past, as it is found written in The Gospel according to John Chap. 4 : 24:
God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
Consider What Christ Jesus said in a time far past(after he had risen from the dead, and appeared in Jerusalem unto the Eleven remaining disciples and others), as it is written in The Gospel according to Luke Chap. 24 : 39:
Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
(Speaking of Jesus Christ)The Epistle of Paul to the Colossians Chap. 1 : 15-18 states:
Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
Through his son Jesus Christ did God create all things that were created. Jesus Christ is the IMAGE of the INVISIBLE God: God made man in his image, and Jesus Christ was made man when he was sent from heaven by God in a time far past to die for our sins and rise again the third day. Being the Son of God, he was also the "Son of Man" having been conceived in the Virgin Mary of the Holy Ghost, and born into the world: flesh, and bone.
The Epistle of Paul to the Hebrews Chap. 1 : 1-4 states:
God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:
4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
At the porch that is called Solomon's, in a time far past, Peter said unto some men of Israel, as it is written in Acts Chap. 3 : 13-15:
The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied him in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let him go.
14 But ye denied the Holy One and the Just, and desired a murderer to be granted unto you;
15 And killed the Prince of life, whom God hath raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses.
muarader64
Member
The Book of Numbers Chap. 23 : 19 states:
God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: has he said, and shall he not do it? or has he spoken, and shall he not make it good?
God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: has he said, and shall he not do it? or has he spoken, and shall he not make it good?
Jesus Lives!
Member
1Jn 3:2 Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be. But we know that when He shall be revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.
1Jn 3:3 And everyone who has this hope on him purifies himself, even as that One is pure.
1Jn 3:4 Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness, for sin is lawlessness.
1Jn 3:5 And you know that He was revealed that He might take away our sins, and in Him is no sin.
1Jn 3:6 Everyone who abides in Him does not sin. Everyone who sins has not seen Him nor known Him.
1Jn 3:7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who does righteousness is righteous, even as that One is righteous.
1Jn 3:8 He who practices sin is of the Devil, for the Devil sins from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was revealed, that He might undo the works of the Devil.
1Jn 3:9 Everyone who has been born of God does not commit sin, because His seed remains in him, and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.
1Jn 3:3 And everyone who has this hope on him purifies himself, even as that One is pure.
1Jn 3:4 Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness, for sin is lawlessness.
1Jn 3:5 And you know that He was revealed that He might take away our sins, and in Him is no sin.
1Jn 3:6 Everyone who abides in Him does not sin. Everyone who sins has not seen Him nor known Him.
1Jn 3:7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who does righteousness is righteous, even as that One is righteous.
1Jn 3:8 He who practices sin is of the Devil, for the Devil sins from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was revealed, that He might undo the works of the Devil.
1Jn 3:9 Everyone who has been born of God does not commit sin, because His seed remains in him, and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.
Trinity
First of all the word Trinity while it does not apear in the Bible, It is clearly just a word to explaine a concept that is clearly in the Bible.
And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
notice the words used here : us,our.
thus clearly indecation more than one being yet God said it clearly indicating that GOd is mor e than one
hmm so what of Bible verse that say GOd is one?
the word one used in relation to God is the same s the one used to express that man and woman become one
Gen 2:24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.
and the same as when Gods people become one in Jesus as Jesus is one in the Father etc.
this one does not denote singulare as the word one does in our time and culture in fact in the Hebrew culture one can be expressed as multiple objects or persons all of like manner etc.
remember that the Hebrew culture of the old Testament was a vocal culture unlike our written culture and in a vocal cultre oposits can mean the same thing.
Jesus in revelation is refered to as the begining and the end the alpha and omega the first and the last which is a description of God.
when thomas saw Jesus after his resurrection he called Him God.
Joh 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, MyLord and my God.
this translation is correct in fact if it were translated directly from the greek it would read like this: "and Thomas answered and said you are the Lord of me and the God of me."
here when directly translated we see it is even clearer than our current translation and unmistakable that Thomas is calling Jesus God. it is important to note that Jesus reply affirms Thomas' statment and does not rebuke him.
Jesus claimed to be the I am which is Gods name given to Moses and the Jews knew it and wanted to kill Him for it.
in the old testament we are told that Isaiah saw the glory of GOd yet in the new we are told that He saw the glory of Jesus. hmmm is this a mistake or is Jesus in fact God.
we are told that God created all things and that God will judge us and that GOd will save us. yet in other places we are told that Jesus will save us that all things were created by Him and that he will judge the world. are they mistakes or the same?
Jesus recieved worship and forgave sins yet we are told that only God can recieve worship and forgive sins. are they mistakes or the same?
in John we are told that the word was with GOd and was God and we are told that Jesus is the word therfore acording to john he is God
Phi 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
Phi 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
what is being said here is that Jesus was God and did not see it robbery to be equal with GOd so let me see there are only two people in the Bible that seem to be in comparison here one Jesus who was equal with GOd therefore must be God and Satan who sougt to be God yet for him is was sin why because he was not God
Jesus said that He would die and on the third day raise Himself up yet els where we are told that GOd would raise Him up. is this a mistake or is it the same thing?
My friends I could go on and on with this subject and even bring the Holy Spirit into it and show how He is God as well yet a seperat personality. the point is there is much evidence that suggests that Jesus is God.
Yes Jesus prayed to the Father and called the Father GOd so what. is this not accurate of course it is they are both God but Jesus did not come to exult Himself but humble Himself. He came to exult the father. Jesus is GOd in human form that he may point us towards heaven and die for our sins. in Hebrews Jesus is likened to Melchisedec why Because he was both a king and a priest and without beginning of days or end of days. now obviously he did begine and did end but it was never recorded but Jesus never began and will never end
Jesus was called a son why because he came to earth through a virgin woman and was concieved by the Holy Spirit (GOd) therfore the one whom Jesus was equal with had now become His Father in the same sence that we have a dad.
Hope this helps blessings all
First of all the word Trinity while it does not apear in the Bible, It is clearly just a word to explaine a concept that is clearly in the Bible.
And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
notice the words used here : us,our.
thus clearly indecation more than one being yet God said it clearly indicating that GOd is mor e than one
hmm so what of Bible verse that say GOd is one?
the word one used in relation to God is the same s the one used to express that man and woman become one
Gen 2:24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.
and the same as when Gods people become one in Jesus as Jesus is one in the Father etc.
this one does not denote singulare as the word one does in our time and culture in fact in the Hebrew culture one can be expressed as multiple objects or persons all of like manner etc.
remember that the Hebrew culture of the old Testament was a vocal culture unlike our written culture and in a vocal cultre oposits can mean the same thing.
Jesus in revelation is refered to as the begining and the end the alpha and omega the first and the last which is a description of God.
when thomas saw Jesus after his resurrection he called Him God.
Joh 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, MyLord and my God.
this translation is correct in fact if it were translated directly from the greek it would read like this: "and Thomas answered and said you are the Lord of me and the God of me."
here when directly translated we see it is even clearer than our current translation and unmistakable that Thomas is calling Jesus God. it is important to note that Jesus reply affirms Thomas' statment and does not rebuke him.
Jesus claimed to be the I am which is Gods name given to Moses and the Jews knew it and wanted to kill Him for it.
in the old testament we are told that Isaiah saw the glory of GOd yet in the new we are told that He saw the glory of Jesus. hmmm is this a mistake or is Jesus in fact God.
we are told that God created all things and that God will judge us and that GOd will save us. yet in other places we are told that Jesus will save us that all things were created by Him and that he will judge the world. are they mistakes or the same?
Jesus recieved worship and forgave sins yet we are told that only God can recieve worship and forgive sins. are they mistakes or the same?
in John we are told that the word was with GOd and was God and we are told that Jesus is the word therfore acording to john he is God
Phi 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
Phi 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
what is being said here is that Jesus was God and did not see it robbery to be equal with GOd so let me see there are only two people in the Bible that seem to be in comparison here one Jesus who was equal with GOd therefore must be God and Satan who sougt to be God yet for him is was sin why because he was not God
Jesus said that He would die and on the third day raise Himself up yet els where we are told that GOd would raise Him up. is this a mistake or is it the same thing?
My friends I could go on and on with this subject and even bring the Holy Spirit into it and show how He is God as well yet a seperat personality. the point is there is much evidence that suggests that Jesus is God.
Yes Jesus prayed to the Father and called the Father GOd so what. is this not accurate of course it is they are both God but Jesus did not come to exult Himself but humble Himself. He came to exult the father. Jesus is GOd in human form that he may point us towards heaven and die for our sins. in Hebrews Jesus is likened to Melchisedec why Because he was both a king and a priest and without beginning of days or end of days. now obviously he did begine and did end but it was never recorded but Jesus never began and will never end
Jesus was called a son why because he came to earth through a virgin woman and was concieved by the Holy Spirit (GOd) therfore the one whom Jesus was equal with had now become His Father in the same sence that we have a dad.
Hope this helps blessings all
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muarader64
Member
Speaking about Jesus Christ, The Epistle of Paul to the Phillipians Chap. 2 : 6(American Standard Version Translation) states:
who, existing in the form of God, counted not the being on an equality with God a thing to be grasped
God has no Equal.
The book of Isaiah Chap. 46 : 5 states that the LORD said:
To whom will ye liken me, and make me equal, and compare me, that we may be like?
There is but ONE God, The Lord of Hosts/Jah/Jehovah/The Ancient of days is his name, and there is none like him. Jesus Christ is not God himself: Jesus Christ is the SON of God, even the Living Word of God, even God's only-begotten son.
It was said in a time far FAR past, as it is written of in The Book of Isaiah Chap. 43 : 10:
Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
I think it would be wise for one to pay attention to what Christ Jesus said of himself, rather than what other men said of him, ie: The disciples saying something like Christ Jesus knowest all things, when only God knows all things, evident from some of these verses below:
Christ Jesus said, as it is written in The Gospel according to Mark Chap. 13 : 31-32:
Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.
32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.
also:
Christ Jesus came down from a temple in Jerusalem to Nazareth with his parents in a time far past. It is written in The Gospel according to Luke Chap. 2 : 52:
And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man.
God is the possessor of all Wisdom, and gives it to those whom fear him.
Furthermore Consider:
Christ Jesus said unto his disciples in a time far past, as it is written in The Gospel according to John Chap. 14 : 28:
Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.
As hopefully one can read above, Christ Jesus made it known: "my Father is greater than I"
The Book of Psalms Chap. 89 : 6-8 states:
For who in the heaven can be compared unto the LORD? who among the sons of the mighty can be likened unto the LORD?
7 God is greatly to be feared in the assembly of the saints, and to be had in reverence of all them that are about him.
8 O LORD God of hosts, who is a strong LORD like unto thee? or to thy faithfulness round about thee?
For you to claim Jesus Christ is equal to the Father(God) is like you're asserting that there are two Omnipotent's: for God is Omnipotent. I tell you that ONLY God is Omnipotent, and he has no equal period.
Consider:
After Christ Jesus's ressurection, when the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them in a time far past, and they had seen him, it is written in The Gospel according to Matthew Chap. 28 : 18:
And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
If "letusgo27", you are saying that Jesus is equal to God whom is Omnipotent, Then what say you of verse(18) that I posted above?
How can all power be GIVEN to one whom is supposedly equal to an Omnipotent? Shouldn't one whom is equal to an Omnipotent have all their own power, being Omnipotent themselves?
Christ Jesus said unto some Jews that wanted to kill him in a time far past in The Gospel according to John Chap. 5 : 30-31:
I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.
31 If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.
He remarked "I can of mine own self do nothing". How can Jesus Christ be equal with God, if he can do nothing OF HIMSELF?
Jesus Christ is the Son OF God; God is head over Christ, and Jesus the Christ is in subjection to the Father and does the Father's will, all power and authority given unto him by God the Father.
The First Epistle of Paul to the Corinthians Chap. 11 : 3 states:
But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
carlos marquez
Member
This is one of the essentials contend for it vigorously,do not give in .
when it comes down to the essentials of our Christian faith,on this plane we have to fight to the death.
I repeat this is an essential,so keep your armour on and continue to contend for the Christian faith that was once for all delivered to the saints.
(JUDE VERSE 3)
when it comes down to the essentials of our Christian faith,on this plane we have to fight to the death.
I repeat this is an essential,so keep your armour on and continue to contend for the Christian faith that was once for all delivered to the saints.
(JUDE VERSE 3)
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The choice
I wanted to write a rather long synopsis of a dissertation I'd written earlier about the nature of the Trinity.
But in the end, you have a simple choice:
The Law cannot save you.
You cannot save yourself.
You can accept Christ and be saved or deny Him and be damned.
----
If Christ is man, he is too dirty to stand in our stead. Having his own sins to atone for (for *all* men have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God), he'd hardly be qualified to take up mine, or yours. Even some of the angels fell into Sin. So Christ has to *be* God to be *without* Sin.
If Christ is a god, but not God - then the entire Bible can be scrapped from the OT forward as the ramblings of a rather schizophrenic pantheon. And again, why would the murder of some quasi-divine being do anything to balance the scales for the rest of us? He has to be man to die for mankind.
If and only if Christ is both fully man (to represent us) and fully God (to qualify to redeem us), does the Salvation of Christ make any sense.
I'm really sorry that I cannot more suscintly explain the nature of Christ to you. But I cannot fall into broken physical explanations such as pantheism or polytheism or modalism or any of a dozen other misguided isms that plague the world.
Ask Him to impart to you that understanding.
----
"In the Beginning God" -- are the first four words of the bible. We are given descriptions of every moment of creation...yet nowhere in there do we get a view of the *creation* of Christ or the Holy Spirit. There is apparently never a time when they were neither present nor distinct from the Father.
Gregory Thaumaturgus writes:
There is therefore nothing created, nothing subject to another in the Trinity: nor is there anything that has been added as though it once had not existed, but had entered afterwards: therefore the Father has never been without the Son, nor the Son without the Spirit: and this same Trinity is immutable and unalterable forever (P.G., X, 986).
----
If you have read most of the Bible but you are still "stuck" on the concept of understanding Christ and His relationship to God the Father, then I suggest reading the book of Hebrews. It stands as a far better work than any I could write.
If I could give any warning, it would be that you not stumble about in the (mis)interpreted translations of Hebrew and Greek that others put forth to support their doctrine or agendas. Languages die and evolve.
But God and His Word are eternal.
Read the Bible.
Read it in whatever language and version is most comfortable to you and trust God to make His truth known to you. Don't depend on the exegesis of others.
I wanted to write a rather long synopsis of a dissertation I'd written earlier about the nature of the Trinity.
But in the end, you have a simple choice:
The Law cannot save you.
You cannot save yourself.
You can accept Christ and be saved or deny Him and be damned.
----
If Christ is man, he is too dirty to stand in our stead. Having his own sins to atone for (for *all* men have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God), he'd hardly be qualified to take up mine, or yours. Even some of the angels fell into Sin. So Christ has to *be* God to be *without* Sin.
If Christ is a god, but not God - then the entire Bible can be scrapped from the OT forward as the ramblings of a rather schizophrenic pantheon. And again, why would the murder of some quasi-divine being do anything to balance the scales for the rest of us? He has to be man to die for mankind.
If and only if Christ is both fully man (to represent us) and fully God (to qualify to redeem us), does the Salvation of Christ make any sense.
I'm really sorry that I cannot more suscintly explain the nature of Christ to you. But I cannot fall into broken physical explanations such as pantheism or polytheism or modalism or any of a dozen other misguided isms that plague the world.
Ask Him to impart to you that understanding.
----
"In the Beginning God" -- are the first four words of the bible. We are given descriptions of every moment of creation...yet nowhere in there do we get a view of the *creation* of Christ or the Holy Spirit. There is apparently never a time when they were neither present nor distinct from the Father.
Gregory Thaumaturgus writes:
There is therefore nothing created, nothing subject to another in the Trinity: nor is there anything that has been added as though it once had not existed, but had entered afterwards: therefore the Father has never been without the Son, nor the Son without the Spirit: and this same Trinity is immutable and unalterable forever (P.G., X, 986).
----
If you have read most of the Bible but you are still "stuck" on the concept of understanding Christ and His relationship to God the Father, then I suggest reading the book of Hebrews. It stands as a far better work than any I could write.
If I could give any warning, it would be that you not stumble about in the (mis)interpreted translations of Hebrew and Greek that others put forth to support their doctrine or agendas. Languages die and evolve.
But God and His Word are eternal.
Read the Bible.
Read it in whatever language and version is most comfortable to you and trust God to make His truth known to you. Don't depend on the exegesis of others.
you mentioned it yourself Phili 2 Jesus stepped down to become man and die for our sins. this explaines everything you just stated.
Jesus became a human man and lived as we do but without sin so that He might show us the way to heaven and then die for our sins. in doing this He humbled himself to the point of becoming like us. thus the reason He had to learn and did not know everything because He had to live like us to prove that it is possible to follow God as a human being.
Jesus was and is GOd who humbled Himself to the point of stepping down to our level with no benifits that we ourselves do not have thus explaining everything you have just thrown at me. and leaving you with thus far nothing to refute what I have said.
blessings
Gracealone
Member
You put it very well, and I agree with your words.
He is our redemption, and our Coming King.
He is everything to me.
Jesus, the fullness of the Godhead in bodily form.
The Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost
No beginning, and without end. The three in one.
He is our redemption, and our Coming King.
He is everything to me.
Jesus, the fullness of the Godhead in bodily form.
The Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost
No beginning, and without end. The three in one.
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muarader64
Member
"Phili 2 :6"?
Speaking about Jesus Christ, The Epistle of Paul to the Phillipians Chap. 2 : 6(American Standard Version Translation) states:
who, existing in the form of God, counted not the being on an equality with God a thing to be grasped
My interpretation: God made man in his Image, and in his likeness: Jesus Christ was born to the Virgin Mary and made man in a time far past: flesh and bone. God is not a man: God is a spirit, whom no man has seen at any time. Nor does God have an Equal.
Christ Jesus said in a time far past, as it is found written in The Gospel according to John Chap. 4 : 24:
God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
Consider What Christ Jesus said in a time far past(after he had risen from the dead, and appeared in Jerusalem unto the Eleven remaining disciples and others), as it is written in The Gospel according to Luke Chap. 24 : 39:
Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
The First Epistle of John Chap. 4 : 9-14 states:
In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.
10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.
11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another.
12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.
13 Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.
14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.
Also Consider:
The First Epistle of John Chap. 1 : 1-3 states:
That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;
2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us
3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.
The Apostles were with Jesus Christ during his ministry HERE on EARTH.
Consider:
The Gospel according to John Chap. 1 : 18 states:
No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
Are you saying you disagree with verse 18 above from scripture "letusgo27"?
Consider these words supposedly said in a time far past, in part of an exchange of dialogue between Moses and the LORD, as it is found written of in the New American Standard Translation of The Book of Exodus Chap. 33 : 18-20:
Then Moses said, "I pray You, show me Your glory!"
19 And He said, "I Myself will make all My goodness pass before you, and will proclaim the name of the LORD before you; and I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will show compassion on whom I will show compassion."
20 But He said, "You cannot see My face, for no man can see Me and live!"
Furthermore Consider:
Christ Jesus said in a time far past, as it is found written in (NASB)The Gospel according to John Chap. 6 : 44-46:
No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.
45 It is written in the prophets, 'AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.
46 Not that anyone has seen the Father, except the One who is from God; He has seen the Father.
Christ Jesus said in a time far past, as it is found written in The Gospel according to Matthew Chap. 11 : 27:
All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.
It was said in a time far FAR past, as it is written of in The Book of Isaiah Chap. 43 : 10:
Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
God is unbegotten, and Jesus Christ is the only-begotten SON of God, whom came out FROM God, so therefore, how can Jesus(whom is begotten), be God(whom is unbegotten)?
Consider:
Christ Jesus said unto his disciples in a time far past, as it is written in The Gospel according to John chap. 16 : 27-28:
For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God.
28 I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.
I wonder if people are REALLY considering what they are saying when they claim a man to be God. It is the Year 2009 indeed,..... still the last days.
I find the saying of "neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase." to be a truly wise one. One can water, but only God can enlighten, and open/give understanding.
DeeperStill
Member
So you do not believe in the deity of Jesus the promised Messiah?
hmmmmmmmmmmm
let me ask you a question. If a robber entered your home and ran off with your property, and somehow you found out where who the thief was and went to ask for your belongings, Are your belongings no longer yours?
It is the same with Jesus. The word says " He thought it not robbery to be equal with God." I ask you why not? Why isn't robbery for Jesus to claim equality with God the father? I will tell you why... Because you cannot steal what is already yours.
Jesus is equal with God the Father. In fact, God the Son, God the Father and God the Holy Spirit are co-equal and co-eternal.
Jesus did not give up his divinity when he took on the form of a man. He didn't give up one nature to become another. He added a human nature to a divine nature. Its called the Hypostatic Union. The God/Man.
Jesus is fully God, fully divine AND Fully Man, Fully Human.
In order for us to be redeemed, Jesus had to be both divine and human because a blood covenant was cut between God and Man upon the cross in Jesus Christ the Son.. Who is representative of God, and man.
This covenant was signed in blood and can never be revoked.
T
hmmmmmmmmmmm
let me ask you a question. If a robber entered your home and ran off with your property, and somehow you found out where who the thief was and went to ask for your belongings, Are your belongings no longer yours?
It is the same with Jesus. The word says " He thought it not robbery to be equal with God." I ask you why not? Why isn't robbery for Jesus to claim equality with God the father? I will tell you why... Because you cannot steal what is already yours.
Jesus is equal with God the Father. In fact, God the Son, God the Father and God the Holy Spirit are co-equal and co-eternal.
Jesus did not give up his divinity when he took on the form of a man. He didn't give up one nature to become another. He added a human nature to a divine nature. Its called the Hypostatic Union. The God/Man.
Jesus is fully God, fully divine AND Fully Man, Fully Human.
In order for us to be redeemed, Jesus had to be both divine and human because a blood covenant was cut between God and Man upon the cross in Jesus Christ the Son.. Who is representative of God, and man.
This covenant was signed in blood and can never be revoked.
T
muarader64
Member
Christ Jesus said unto his disciples in a time far past, as it is written in The Gospel according to John Chap. 14 : 28:
Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.
As hopefully one can read above, Christ Jesus made it known: "my Father is greater than I"
The Book of Psalms Chap. 89 : 6-8 states:
For who in the heaven can be compared unto the LORD? who among the sons of the mighty can be likened unto the LORD?
7 God is greatly to be feared in the assembly of the saints, and to be had in reverence of all them that are about him.
8 O LORD God of hosts, who is a strong LORD like unto thee? or to thy faithfulness round about thee?
Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.
As hopefully one can read above, Christ Jesus made it known: "my Father is greater than I"
The Book of Psalms Chap. 89 : 6-8 states:
For who in the heaven can be compared unto the LORD? who among the sons of the mighty can be likened unto the LORD?
7 God is greatly to be feared in the assembly of the saints, and to be had in reverence of all them that are about him.
8 O LORD God of hosts, who is a strong LORD like unto thee? or to thy faithfulness round about thee?
Boanerges
Member
To know God is to understand that there is no jealousy amongst the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.
All things in the tripartite God are in order even as He has given us order. That does not detract from the deity of Jesus Christ.
The Father plainly called the Son the Most High God
(Ho' Theos):
Heb 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
and it is written :
Psa 138:2 I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name.
Thou hast magnified Thy Word above all Thy Name; the Word is Christ and yet none is above the Father yet the Father exalts Him above all.
---------- Post added at 03:07 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:03 PM ----------
Though they understood Him not Jesus plainly declared :
Joh 10:30 I and my Father are one.
DeeperStill
Member
Jesus was not saying that the Father was greater in position than himself. He was saying that in the sense that God the father had not come to earth as a man and suffered all the things that Jesus suffered that the position of God being in heaven was a greater position than God being on earth in the form of a man. Jesus was telling his his disciples that if they understood the need for his going away, they would rejoice, instead of being fearful and troubled.
so in context, this is not teaching subordination-ism. Jesus is not claiming that He is not equal with the Father.
If you look at this image, you will see that there are three things which are true of the God head.
1. There is One God
2. There are three persons
3. The three are co-equal and co-eternal
If these three truths are not perfectly in balance then you will get one of the three false teachings at the points of the diagram.
To say that Jesus is not equal with the Father is teaching subordinationism. A False teaching .
to say there is more than one God is to teach polytheism, A false teaching.
to say that they are not co-eternal and co-equal is to teach modalism, another false teaching.
T
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muarader64
Member
Wow.
I disagree with you, for indeed there is but one God: but he has NO equal, period, and there is NONE like the Lord of Hosts.
The book of Isaiah Chap. 46 : 5 states that the LORD said:
"To whom will ye liken me, and make me equal, and compare me, that we may be like?"
but You are entitled to your opinion, and interpretations "Deeperstill", as I am mine,
I humbly would like to end our conversation, I wish you well comrade.
I disagree with you, for indeed there is but one God: but he has NO equal, period, and there is NONE like the Lord of Hosts.
The book of Isaiah Chap. 46 : 5 states that the LORD said:
"To whom will ye liken me, and make me equal, and compare me, that we may be like?"
but You are entitled to your opinion, and interpretations "Deeperstill", as I am mine,
I humbly would like to end our conversation, I wish you well comrade.
DeeperStill
Member
I know its not me you really disagree with. So all that's left for me to ask you is this: Do you deny that Jesus is God?
T
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muarader64
Member
Let's look at the verse that Paul is quoting in Heb 1 : 8 in it's context, as it is found in the KJV Translation of The Book of Psalms Chap. 45:
1 My heart is inditing a good matter: I speak of the things which I have made touching the king: my tongue is the pen of a ready writer.
2 Thou art fairer than the children of men: grace is poured into thy lips: therefore God hath blessed thee for ever.
3 Gird thy sword upon thy thigh, O most mighty, with thy glory and thy majesty.
4 And in thy majesty ride prosperously because of truth and meekness and righteousness; and thy right hand shall teach thee terrible things.
5 Thine arrows are sharp in the heart of the king's enemies; whereby the people fall under thee.
6 Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre.
7 Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
8 All thy garments smell of myrrh, and aloes, and cassia, out of the ivory palaces, whereby they have made thee glad.
9 Kings' daughters were among thy honourable women: upon thy right hand did stand the queen in gold of Ophir.
Where is it written in The Book of Psalms Chap. 45 that God claimed that his son is God? There is only ONE God, The Lord of Hosts is his name.
It is contained written in The Book of Isaiah Chap. 44 : 8 that the LORD said in a time far past:
"Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any."
Paul is not Jesus Christ, nor is he God. He was a fallible man, just as you or I, a sinner, capable of mistakes and mis-interpretation of scripture, just as men are today. I do not agree with your interpretation, if you feel that Paul was claiming in verse 8 of The Epistle of Paul to the Hebrews Chap. 1, that God was claiming that his son, Jesus Christ, is God. I also do not agree with Pauls interpretation if he indeed was claiming that God claimed that his son is God.
In regards to what you posted: "Though they understood Him not Jesus plainly declared :
Joh 10:30 I and my Father are one.",:
Indeed those words are written in The Gospel according to John Chap. 10 : 30, albeit it Doesn't mean Jesus Christ is God himself.
Consider:
The First Epistle of Paul to The Corinthians Chap. 10 : 16-17 states:
The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ?
17 For we being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread.
The Epistle of Paul to the Romans Chap. 12 : 4-5 states:
For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office:
5 So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.
(Speaking of Jesus Christ)It is contained written in verse 18 of The Epistle of Paul to the Colossians Chap. 1:
"And he is the head of the body, the church"
Now Consider:
The First Epistle of Paul to the Corinthians Chap. 11 : 3 states:
But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
Christ Jesus is our head, and we, being Christians(those who are), are one body in Jesus Christ. Christ Jesus is also our firm foundation: the chief cornerstone. The head of Christ is God.
Now Consider:
Christ Jesus spake unto the Father in Prayer in a time Far past: A portion of which(which shows him possibly speaking concerning his disciples, to my interpretation) can be found written in The Gospel according to John Chap. 17 : 18-23:
As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.
20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
Now let's take a look at this:
Christ Jesus said in a time far past, as it is found written in The Gospel according to John Chap. 10 : 27-38:
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
30 I and my Father are one.
31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.
38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.
Gracealone
Member
I think you side stepped the question, but then I have come in late on this one.....
Jesus willing laid down his position in Heaven, and willingly agreed to be born a man, so he could be tempted in all ways as we are, yet without sin, so he could lay his own life down in our place.
Yes, here on earth, Jesus got tired, he hungered, and thirst, and was tempted in all respects as we are, so he could be our High priest in heaven forever. He took on the form of man, and yielded his position in heaven , to take our place.
He had to become man, so he could die as a man, in order to redeem us.
He is totally God, and totally man......That was their plan, before they ever created the world.
The plan of redemption.
John 1:1 Tells us; In the beginning was the word, and the word was with God, and the word was God.
The same was in the beginning with God.....
Hebrews 1:1-14 leaves no doubt who Jesus is, and he is God.
Hope you see this as you read through these passages. :thumbs_up
There is no problem with Jesus saying this.....Before the foundation of the world God, who existed in 3 persons, knew what would become of man, and knew already what they would do.
Jesus willing laid down his position in Heaven, and willingly agreed to be born a man, so he could be tempted in all ways as we are, yet without sin, so he could lay his own life down in our place.
Yes, here on earth, Jesus got tired, he hungered, and thirst, and was tempted in all respects as we are, so he could be our High priest in heaven forever. He took on the form of man, and yielded his position in heaven , to take our place.
He had to become man, so he could die as a man, in order to redeem us.
He is totally God, and totally man......That was their plan, before they ever created the world.
The plan of redemption.
John 1:1 Tells us; In the beginning was the word, and the word was with God, and the word was God.
The same was in the beginning with God.....
Hebrews 1:1-14 leaves no doubt who Jesus is, and he is God.
Hope you see this as you read through these passages. :thumbs_up
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