The Two Witnesses, pros and cons

[Snake Bait]

In recent chats here, there is a member who claims such a title. My thoughts are prudence, and we should take things with a grain of salt. ( as my mom used to say).

Other thoughts that come to my mind, ( after hearing of him) well why not. After all, it isn't like the "Two Witnesses will pop up" out of the ground, in Jerusalem. They will have to come from somewhere.

As the Scripture states, "I shall send" Rev 11:3.

And knowing how it was for John the Baptist, he was born and killed. And yet Jesus refered to him as Elijah.

Even greater proof is shown in Matthew, as John the Baptist was killed before the transfiguration Matthew 17:3 scripture states the apostles recognized Moses and Elijah. They knew John the Baptist, but he was not present.

What this shows us, the spirit that was in the heart of John was the same as in Elijah, but these two individuals are different people.

So the Witnesses, although having the same spirit and zeel in thier hearts, will be two other individuals as well.

On a side note, there is no evidence to conclude the Witnesses are Jewish, nor that the message is only for the Jews and Muslims. As scripture also states Rev 11:10 "and the people of the world will be glad about it and celebrate the event by giving presents to each other, because these two prophets have been a plague to the people of the world"

 

[Br. Bear]

Greetings,

Two witnesses to the LORD, who the majority of the world would be glad to see the end of, are The Church and Israel.

What are your thoughts?

Both have many members but one body, walking as one.


Bless you ....><>

 

[samahah]

I don't accept dispensationalism so my take on the end-times is different.

It's debatable whether or not Daniel's 7's 4th beast and the Revelation 13, 17 beast all represent the same entity. The prophecies concerning the anti-Christ may not be what we think. For one thing, for centuries many have believed the Anti-Christ would be an Assyrian - meaning Ancient Babylon and I believe there's truth to that since every nation mentioned in end-time prophecy is dominated by Islam today. A resurrected Saddam Hussein and bin Laden have a better chance of being the anti-Christ and false prophet than the pope or some leader in the EU.

Regardless of who the two witnesses are, I'm about convinced they testify on the Temple Mount to Muslim's and are resurrected at the same place Muhammad is said to have been resurrected. The world sending gifts to one another doesn't mean everybody worldwide does so. Chances are - it's a Muslim thing.

"And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth."

 

[Snake Bait]

Greetings,

Two witnesses to the LORD, who the majority of the world would be glad to see the end of, are The Church and Israel.

What are your thoughts?

Both have many members but one body, walking as one.


Bless you ....><>

I believe there is a lot of Truth to that. And I do know Revelations is written in a manner that there is a lot of duplicity. Meaning that there is double meaning in a lot of it.

An example that comes to my mind, is the Beast that comes from the sea.
I know the term sea change is relatively new, however understanding what it means, a sea change is an event that changes the perspective of the whole world. Like the event of covid is a sea change.

 

[B-A-C]

Two witnesses to the LORD, who the majority of the world would be glad to see the end of, are The Church and Israel.

What are your thoughts?

It is difficult to imagine either of these killing people with fire from their mouths. It is more believable that these could possibly cause plagues, turn water into blood and stop the rain from failing.
It is impossible to imagine that the church and Israel will lie dead in the streets of Jerusalem for three days. I can't imagine the church will only witness for 1260 days.

Rev 11:3; "And I will grant authority to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for twelve hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth."
Rev 11:4; These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth.
Rev 11:5; And if anyone wants to harm them, fire flows out of their mouth and devours their enemies; so if anyone wants to harm them, he must be killed in this way.
Rev 11:6; These have the power to shut up the sky, so that rain will not fall during the days of their prophesying; and they have power over the waters to turn them into blood, and to strike the earth with every plague, as often as they desire.
Rev 11:7; When they have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up out of the abyss will make war with them, and overcome them and kill them.
Rev 11:8; And their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city which mystically is called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified.
Rev 11:9; Those from the peoples and tribes and tongues and nations will look at their dead bodies for three and a half days, and will not permit their dead bodies to be laid in a tomb.
Rev 11:10; And those who dwell on the earth will rejoice over them and celebrate; and they will send gifts to one another, because these two prophets tormented those who dwell on the earth.
Rev 11:11; But after the three and a half days, the breath of life from God came into them, and they stood on their feet; and great fear fell upon those who were watching them.
Rev 11:12; And they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, "Come up here." Then they went up into heaven in the cloud, and their enemies watched them.

Also it seems the reason the people of the Earth are celebrating here, is because the two witnesses are dead. I get the impression, that most of the world will not be happy to see them.

Some people believe there will be a great revival during the tribulation. I don't doubt that some people may get saved during that time, but I would say the majority will not.

Rev 9:20; The rest of mankind, who were not killed by these plagues, did not repent of the works of their hands, so as not to worship demons, and the idols of gold and of silver and of brass and of stone and of wood, which can neither see nor hear nor walk;
Rev 9:21; and they did not repent of their murders nor of their sorceries nor of their immorality nor of their thefts.
Rev 16:9; Men were scorched with fierce heat; and they blasphemed the name of God who has the power over these plagues, and they did not repent so as to give Him glory.
Rev 16:11; and they blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores; and they did not repent of their deeds.
Rev 2:21; 'I gave her time to repent, and she does not want to repent of her immorality.

 

[Dave M]

In recent chats here, there is a member who claims such a title

The member who makes this claim is one of the most loving people I have encountered online. In confession I was jesting about this very claim to a friend of mine yesterday, but who knows, not my place to agree or disagree with such a loving person who clearly loves his neighbor and the lord with all his heart from what I have seen.

 

[Snake Bait]

The member who makes this claim is one of the most loving people I have encountered online. In confession I was jesting about this very claim to a friend of mine yesterday, but who knows, not my place to agree or disagree with such a loving person who clearly loves his neighbor and the lord with all his heart from what I have seen.

In a previous chat I said that it was important to pay attention when a person makes such a claim. Either that of a prophet or in this case The Witness. And I mean this sincerely, with anyone.

Pay attention, as you have stated, or if he posts a prophecy.

We have to remember, the prophets main objective is to cultivate the soil. To help us grow deeper in God.

 

[Snake Bait]

It is difficult to imagine either of these killing people with fire from their mouths. It is more believable that these could possibly cause plagues, turn water into blood and stop the rain from failing.
It is impossible to imagine that the church and Israel will lie dead in the streets of Jerusalem for three days. I can't imagine the church will only witness for 1260 days.

Rev 11:3; "And I will grant authority to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for twelve hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth."
Rev 11:4; These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth.
Rev 11:5; And if anyone wants to harm them, fire flows out of their mouth and devours their enemies; so if anyone wants to harm them, he must be killed in this way.
Rev 11:6; These have the power to shut up the sky, so that rain will not fall during the days of their prophesying; and they have power over the waters to turn them into blood, and to strike the earth with every plague, as often as they desire.
Rev 11:7; When they have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up out of the abyss will make war with them, and overcome them and kill them.
Rev 11:8; And their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city which mystically is called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified.
Rev 11:9; Those from the peoples and tribes and tongues and nations will look at their dead bodies for three and a half days, and will not permit their dead bodies to be laid in a tomb.
Rev 11:10; And those who dwell on the earth will rejoice over them and celebrate; and they will send gifts to one another, because these two prophets tormented those who dwell on the earth.
Rev 11:11; But after the three and a half days, the breath of life from God came into them, and they stood on their feet; and great fear fell upon those who were watching them.
Rev 11:12; And they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, "Come up here." Then they went up into heaven in the cloud, and their enemies watched them.

Also it seems the reason the people of the Earth are celebrating here, is because the two witnesses are dead. I get the impression, that most of the world will not be happy to see them.

Some people believe there will be a great revival during the tribulation. I don't doubt that some people may get saved during that time, but I would say the majority will not.

Rev 9:20; The rest of mankind, who were not killed by these plagues, did not repent of the works of their hands, so as not to worship demons, and the idols of gold and of silver and of brass and of stone and of wood, which can neither see nor hear nor walk;
Rev 9:21; and they did not repent of their murders nor of their sorceries nor of their immorality nor of their thefts.
Rev 16:9; Men were scorched with fierce heat; and they blasphemed the name of God who has the power over these plagues, and they did not repent so as to give Him glory.
Rev 16:11; and they blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores; and they did not repent of their deeds.
Rev 2:21; 'I gave her time to repent, and she does not want to repent of her immorality.

It is difficult to imagine either of these killing people with fire from their mouths. It is more believable that these could possibly cause plagues, turn water into blood and stop the rain from failing.
It is impossible to imagine that the church and Israel will lie dead in the streets of Jerusalem for three days. I can't imagine the church will only witness for 1260 days.

Rev 11:3; "And I will grant authority to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for twelve hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth."
Rev 11:4; These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth.
Rev 11:5; And if anyone wants to harm them, fire flows out of their mouth and devours their enemies; so if anyone wants to harm them, he must be killed in this way.
Rev 11:6; These have the power to shut up the sky, so that rain will not fall during the days of their prophesying; and they have power over the waters to turn them into blood, and to strike the earth with every plague, as often as they desire.
Rev 11:7; When they have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up out of the abyss will make war with them, and overcome them and kill them.
Rev 11:8; And their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city which mystically is called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified.
Rev 11:9; Those from the peoples and tribes and tongues and nations will look at their dead bodies for three and a half days, and will not permit their dead bodies to be laid in a tomb.
Rev 11:10; And those who dwell on the earth will rejoice over them and celebrate; and they will send gifts to one another, because these two prophets tormented those who dwell on the earth.
Rev 11:11; But after the three and a half days, the breath of life from God came into them, and they stood on their feet; and great fear fell upon those who were watching them.
Rev 11:12; And they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, "Come up here." Then they went up into heaven in the cloud, and their enemies watched them.

Also it seems the reason the people of the Earth are celebrating here, is because the two witnesses are dead. I get the impression, that most of the world will not be happy to see them.

Some people believe there will be a great revival during the tribulation. I don't doubt that some people may get saved during that time, but I would say the majority will not.

Rev 9:20; The rest of mankind, who were not killed by these plagues, did not repent of the works of their hands, so as not to worship demons, and the idols of gold and of silver and of brass and of stone and of wood, which can neither see nor hear nor walk;
Rev 9:21; and they did not repent of their murders nor of their sorceries nor of their immorality nor of their thefts.
Rev 16:9; Men were scorched with fierce heat; and they blasphemed the name of God who has the power over these plagues, and they did not repent so as to give Him glory.
Rev 16:11; and they blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores; and they did not repent of their deeds.
Rev 2:21; 'I gave her time to repent, and she does not want to repent of her immorality.

In reguards to fire coming from the mouth, do not forget scripture.

Jer 23:29
Does not my word burn like fire
--- it is Yahweh who speaks ---
Is it not like a hammer shattering a rock?

Psalm 39:3
My heart has been smoldering inside me, but it flared up at the thought of this and the words burst out.

Psalm 104:4
You use the winds as Messengers and fiery Flames as servants.

Hebrews 12:29
For our God is a consuming fire.

 

[Snake Bait]

What i ment to add to my last comment about the fire from the mouth, with these scripture versus, the fire from the mouth would be the " Word " of God.

 

[B-A-C]

In reguards to fire coming from the mouth, do not forget scripture.

I would concede that this could be a possible metaphor. However you still have the problem of them being dead in the street for 3 1/2 days, and them only prophesying for 3 1/2 years.
Does scripture bring life or death?

I must admit I am a little biased against scripture as abstract in most cases, unless it specifically is written as abstract. Here is the problem with saying the two witnesses are an abstract of the church and Israel.
A lot of people do this with Adam as well, they say there really wasn't a man named Adam, "Adam" is just an abstract of society at that time. Well then we have a problem.

Rom 5:13; for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Rom 5:14; Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.
Rom 5:15; But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many.
Rom 5:16; The gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment arose from one transgression resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift arose from many transgressions resulting in justification.
Rom 5:17; For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.
Rom 5:18; So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.

So then if "Adam" is just an abstract of society, and it was the "one sin" of society at that time, are we then saved by "Jesus", not really a man, but an abstract of God, Israel, and possibly the church?
I tend to take the Bible literally unless, the literal interpretation makes no sense. I believe Adam was a real man. I believe Jesus was a real man ( God also ). I believe the two witnesses will be two actual men.
The believe the beast will be an actual man, not some abstract of government/technology. Again, if the two witnesses are simply an abstract of the church, the church will only prophesy for 3 1/2 years. And then the
church and Israel will be dead in the streets of Jerusalem for 3 1/2 days, and then come back to life? That doesn't make sense, so to me, it must be two men.

 

[Snake Bait]

I would concede that this could be a possible metaphor. However you still have the problem of them being dead in the street for 3 1/2 days, and them only prophesying for 3 1/2 years.
Does scripture bring life or death?

I must admit I am a little biased against scripture as abstract in most cases, unless it specifically is written as abstract. Here is the problem with saying the two witnesses are an abstract of the church and Israel.
A lot of people do this with Adam as well, they say there really wasn't a man named Adam, "Adam" is just an abstract of society at that time. Well then we have a problem.

Rom 5:13; for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Rom 5:14; Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.
Rom 5:15; But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many.
Rom 5:16; The gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment arose from one transgression resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift arose from many transgressions resulting in justification.
Rom 5:17; For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.
Rom 5:18; So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.

So then if "Adam" is just an abstract of society, and it was the "one sin" of society at that time, are we then saved by "Jesus", not really a man, but an abstract of God, Israel, and possibly the church?
I tend to take the Bible literally unless, the literal interpretation makes no sense. I believe Adam was a real man. I believe Jesus was a real man ( God also ). I believe the two witnesses will be two actual men.
The believe the beast will be an actual man, not some abstract of government/technology. Again, if the two witnesses are simply an abstract of the church, the church will only prophesy for 3 1/2 years. And then the
church and Israel will be dead in the streets of Jerusalem for 3 1/2 days, and then come back to life? That doesn't make sense, so to me, it must be two men.

I personally do believe they are two people. And i agree with you on a lot of what you have been saying.

I was giving some understanding to what the fire could be. What it will be, we will have to wait and see.

Scripture speaks very clearly about the "fire of God" burning within us. A referance was used by the Apostles on the road to Emmaus.

The Gospel of Luke 24 verse 32
Then they said to each other, "Did not our hearts burn within us as he talked to us on the road and explain the scripture to us?"

As for Adam, the scripture would not make any sense especially when it talks about the lineage going all the way back to Adam. If the concept of Adam was abstract.

 

[NoHype]

God said in Malachi 4 that He would send Elijah the prophet before the coming of the "day of the Lord". Because He said that in conjunction with the end linked to that "day of the Lord" phrase, that suggests to me His sending Elijah will be closer to the end near Jesus' future return, and not back at the time of Lord Jesus' first coming.

There's no reason to think the two witnesses mentioned in Rev.11 that are to prophesy against the beast for 1260 days is only a symbol or metaphor. Their being killed with their dead bodies left laying unburied in the street of Jerusalem, and all nations seeing it, is a direct type of statement, not a symbolic statement.

The two witnesses of Rev.11 are linked to the two anointed ones that stand by The LORD of the whole earth, per the last verse of Zechariah 4. That idea is linked specifically to the Rev.11:4 verse. That idea of 'standing' means making a 'stand', prepared to give a Testimony for Christ at the end of this world.

Could the 'two witnesses' maybe be the prophet Elijah and Enoch, both which did not die because The LORD took them? Possibly. But we don't really yet know.

The following is for those with 'eyes to see, and ears to hear':
Rev.11:4 also mentions "two candlesticks" along with the idea of the "two witnesses". Per Rev.1, John saw 7 candlesticks in Heaven. The last verse Rev.1, Jesus said the 7 candlesticks are the 7 Churches. It means those 'candlesticks' represent a Heavenly pattern for Christ's Church. Directly related to those candlesticks are Christ's 7 Messages He gave to the 7 Churches in Revelation 2 & 3. There were only TWO Churches that Jesus had NO rebuke for, the Church of Smyrna and the Church of Philadelphia. The other 5 Churches had problems in them, and He warned one of them that He would remove their 'candlestick' if they didn't repent. All 7 of those Messages apply to all Christian Churches today, and is how one learns what kind of Church they are in. The two Churches Jesus had no rebuke for represent His faithful elect, and they represent the "two candlesticks" that will also make a 'stand' for Christ at the end, and that will be in ALL nations, not just in Jerusalem.

 

[Bill]

God said in Malachi 4 that He would send Elijah the prophet before the coming of the "day of the Lord". Because He said that in conjunction with the end linked to that "day of the Lord" phrase, that suggests to me His sending Elijah will be closer to the end near Jesus' future return, and not back at the time of Lord Jesus' first coming.

There's no reason to think the two witnesses mentioned in Rev.11 that are to prophesy against the beast for 1260 days is only a symbol or metaphor. Their being killed with their dead bodies left laying unburied in the street of Jerusalem, and all nations seeing it, is a direct type of statement, not a symbolic statement.

The two witnesses of Rev.11 are linked to the two anointed ones that stand by The LORD of the whole earth, per the last verse of Zechariah 4. That idea is linked specifically to the Rev.11:4 verse. That idea of 'standing' means making a 'stand', prepared to give a Testimony for Christ at the end of this world.

Could the 'two witnesses' maybe be the prophet Elijah and Enoch, both which did not die because The LORD took them? Possibly. But we don't really yet know.

The following is for those with 'eyes to see, and ears to hear':
Rev.11:4 also mentions "two candlesticks" along with the idea of the "two witnesses". Per Rev.1, John saw 7 candlesticks in Heaven. The last verse Rev.1, Jesus said the 7 candlesticks are the 7 Churches. It means those 'candlesticks' represent a Heavenly pattern for Christ's Church. Directly related to those candlesticks are Christ's 7 Messages He gave to the 7 Churches in Revelation 2 & 3. There were only TWO Churches that Jesus had NO rebuke for, the Church of Smyrna and the Church of Philadelphia. The other 5 Churches had problems in them, and He warned one of them that He would remove their 'candlestick' if they didn't repent. All 7 of those Messages apply to all Christian Churches today, and is how one learns what kind of Church they are in. The two Churches Jesus had no rebuke for represent His faithful elect, and they represent the "two candlesticks" that will also make a 'stand' for Christ at the end, and that will be in ALL nations, not just in Jerusalem.

Didn't Jesus refer to John the Baptist as Elijah? And when Peter and John went with Jesus and saw Elijah and Moses they recognized Elijah and Moses, however they did not refer to Elijah as John the Baptist.

I can be certain that both Peter and John knew who John the Baptist was and what he looked like. So if they recognize Elijah as Elijah, and did not speak the name of John the Baptist it would show that Elijah and John the Baptist are two separate people.

Yet Jesus himself stated that John the Baptist Was Elijah and he also stated that Elijah would come again. So maybe Elijah is more than just a person in the same way that the golden lamp stand is more than just a lampstand

 

[NoHype]

Didn't Jesus refer to John the Baptist as Elijah? And when Peter and John went with Jesus and saw Elijah and Moses they recognized Elijah and Moses, however they did not refer to Elijah as John the Baptist.

I can be certain that both Peter and John knew who John the Baptist was and what he looked like. So if they recognize Elijah as Elijah, and did not speak the name of John the Baptist it would show that Elijah and John the Baptist are two separate people.

Yet Jesus himself stated that John the Baptist Was Elijah and he also stated that Elijah would come again. So maybe Elijah is more than just a person in the same way that the golden lamp stand is more than just a lampstand

Yes, Lord Jesus showed that John the Baptist would have represented the spirit of Elijah, IF... he and Jesus had not been rejected. Their rejection and execution moves the Malachi 4 prophecy further to the end.

Have you ever taken the time to look up that, "Prepare ye the way of the Lord" that John the Baptist quoted from Isaiah? There's certain events, major changes on earth, associated with it in Isaiah 40. That didn't happen at Jesus' 1st coming with John the Baptist... but it would have, if they had not been rejected...

Isa 40:3-11
3 The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God.

That "highway" is further described at the end of Isaiah 19, it will be a literal highway in God's Kingdom on earth, going from Egypt through Israel all the way up into Assyria. That didn't happen in John's time either.

4 Every valley shall be exalted, and every mountain and hill shall be made low: and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough places plain:

5 And the glory of the LORD shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.

6 The voice said, 'Cry'. And he said, 'What shall I cry?' All flesh is grass, and all the goodliness thereof is as the flower of the field:

7 The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: because the spirit of the LORD bloweth upon it: surely the people is grass.

8 The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: but the word of our God shall stand for ever.

9 O Zion, that bringest good tidings, get thee up into the high mountain; O Jerusalem, that bringest good tidings, lift up thy voice with strength; lift it up, be not afraid; say unto the cities of Judah, 'Behold your God!'

10 Behold, the Lord GOD will come with strong hand, and His arm shall rule for Him: behold, His reward is with Him, and His work before Him.

11 He shall feed His flock like a shepherd: He shall gather the lambs with His arm, and carry them in His bosom, and shall gently lead those that are with young.
KJV

Those things did not happen with the time of John the Baptist and Christ's 1st coming. Instead, Jesus' 1st coming was as meek as a lamb to be slaughtered for the remission of sins of those who believe. His future 2nd coming will be like the above Scripture, coming with a "strong hand" to subdue all His enemies and reign over all nations and people in Person.

 

[Bill]

Yes, Lord Jesus showed that John the Baptist would have represented the spirit of Elijah, IF... he and Jesus had not been rejected. Their rejection and execution moves the Malachi 4 prophecy further to the end.

Have you ever taken the time to look up that, "Prepare ye the way of the Lord" that John the Baptist quoted from Isaiah? There's certain events, major changes on earth, associated with it in Isaiah 40. That didn't happen at Jesus' 1st coming with John the Baptist... but it would have, if they had not been rejected...

Isa 40:3-11
3 The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God.

That "highway" is further described at the end of Isaiah 19, it will be a literal highway in God's Kingdom on earth, going from Egypt through Israel all the way up into Assyria. That didn't happen in John's time either.

4 Every valley shall be exalted, and every mountain and hill shall be made low: and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough places plain:

5 And the glory of the LORD shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.

6 The voice said, 'Cry'. And he said, 'What shall I cry?' All flesh is grass, and all the goodliness thereof is as the flower of the field:

7 The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: because the spirit of the LORD bloweth upon it: surely the people is grass.

8 The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: but the word of our God shall stand for ever.

9 O Zion, that bringest good tidings, get thee up into the high mountain; O Jerusalem, that bringest good tidings, lift up thy voice with strength; lift it up, be not afraid; say unto the cities of Judah, 'Behold your God!'

10 Behold, the Lord GOD will come with strong hand, and His arm shall rule for Him: behold, His reward is with Him, and His work before Him.

11 He shall feed His flock like a shepherd: He shall gather the lambs with His arm, and carry them in His bosom, and shall gently lead those that are with young.
KJV

Those things did not happen with the time of John the Baptist and Christ's 1st coming. Instead, Jesus' 1st coming was as meek as a lamb to be slaughtered for the remission of sins of those who believe. His future 2nd coming will be like the above Scripture, coming with a "strong hand" to subdue all His enemies and reign over all nations and people in Person.

Actually most of what you wrote did take place in the time of Jesus on Earth.

These passages are not talking about something of the earth they're talking of the heart and spirit. They're also talking about the glory of Jesus revealed on the cross and in the resurrection.

Making straight the path for the Lord that was John the Baptist when he was bringing everyone in line with the scripture. Many Jews follow the scripture but they don't understand things but John the Baptist brought him into line. He made them straight before the Lord.

First it was John the Baptist and then the Lord also brought down the mountains and built up the valleys and this way prepared people to receive the Holy Spirit. And then it was also Jesus going through the passion and Agony on the cross and then the resurrection it was his passion and glory and the glory of God revealed.

The strong hand of the Lord revealed is also through the Holy Spirit and receiving the baptism of the Holy Spirit along with receiving the gifts of the Holy Spirit and using those gifts. This is what that passage talked about all of these things

 

[watertolive]

Greetings in the Lord
Who maketh His angels spirits; His ministers a flaming fire: Psalms 104

The seven stars and seven candlesticks...
The seven angels and seven churches...
Just something God showed me long ago that I wanted to bounce off y'all.

The church is not the one made with hands, but the temple church living in us made without hands. Amen

John was told write to the angel of the church ...........
He isn't writing to a church made with hands.
God showed me which church I carry within me many years ago.
He set an open door before me in heaven, no man can shut that door. I have kept His word and not denied His name. I have seen the new Jerusalem. It came down out of heaven, it did not touch the earth.

In a vision; The synagogue of Satan (the worlds people) came seeking the Lord, the land burnt and desolate, no vehicles or trees to be seen, they walked in. Some major event had taken place on the earth. I stood on a church porch preaching; (3 people on each side of me on the steps, and 6 across the front on the steps) appeared to be disciples. Upon my head was a rag of 12 stars. The churches doors were open, but only shadow figures moved around inside. And a dark hooded figure makes its way through the crowd (alot of people, lost, confused, wearing rags and charred dirt upon them) , and I was shot through the heart. I fell to my death right there on that porch.
This vision is things I will see come to pass in my life time.

God told me I was (Luke 11:31), I told y'all...not to boast, nor be more then anyone, for I assure you I am not; but very humble, filled of God's love. It is my torch to carry.

Jesus said no sign shall be given this generation, but the sign of Jonah...REPENT, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

 

[NoHype]

Actually most of what you wrote did take place in the time of Jesus on Earth.

These passages are not talking about something of the earth they're talking of the heart and spirit. They're also talking about the glory of Jesus revealed on the cross and in the resurrection.

Making straight the path for the Lord that was John the Baptist when he was bringing everyone in line with the scripture. Many Jews follow the scripture but they don't understand things but John the Baptist brought him into line. He made them straight before the Lord.

First it was John the Baptist and then the Lord also brought down the mountains and built up the valleys and this way prepared people to receive the Holy Spirit. And then it was also Jesus going through the passion and Agony on the cross and then the resurrection it was his passion and glory and the glory of God revealed.

The strong hand of the Lord revealed is also through the Holy Spirit and receiving the baptism of the Holy Spirit along with receiving the gifts of the Holy Spirit and using those gifts. This is what that passage talked about all of these things

I cannot agree those Isaiah 40 events have happened already. Don't let men's traditions get in the way of the literal prophecies in God's Word.

And Isaiah 40 is... pointing to future literal events upon this earth...

Isa 19:23-25
23 In that day shall there be a highway out of Egypt to Assyria, and the Assyrian shall come into Egypt, and the Egyptian into Assyria, and the Egyptians shall serve with the Assyrians.
24 In that day shall Israel be the third with Egypt and with Assyria, even a blessing in the midst of the land:
25 Whom the LORD of hosts shall bless, saying, Blessed be Egypt my people, and Assyria the work of my hands, and Israel mine inheritance.
KJV

Christ's Kingdom today is here on earth in SPIRIT only, through His Church, and I don't mean buildings or cathedrals either. But His future Kingdom is to have a future literal, physical establishing here on earth when Jesus returns; that's when these literal events will start upon the earth. Both Revelation and Ezekiel reveal the return of God's River and the Tree of Life back to this earth, and that will be a literal event, just like it was in Genesis 2 with God's River flowing out of His Garden and feeding four other rivers upon this earth, which two of those rivers still exist on earth today.

If you don't believe the Zechariah 14:1-5 Scripture about Christ's feet touching down upon the Mount of Olives at His future coming, and that great valley formed there because of it, and those "living waters" then flowing from Jerusalem, on earth (per Ezekiel 47), then I must be in the wrong kind of Forum, because I don't have time to debate every Bible Scripture which men's traditions has turned into religious philosophy by wrongly converting literal Scripture events into allegories like corrupted ones like Origen and Clement of the school at Alexandria did, with their having been influenced by Gnosticism.

When Isaiah 40:4 says "Every valley shall be exalted, and every mountain and hill shall be made low...," that will be a literal event, linked to the day of Christ's future return. It is not simply a metaphor, which is how men's traditions treat most of Isaiah 40. They don't understand the power of God and what He is going to do with this earth in the future, just as many of them haven't understood what God did to this earth in the past, prior to this second world earth age we are in now.

 

[Bill]

I cannot agree those Isaiah 40 events have happened already. Don't let men's traditions get in the way of the literal prophecies in God's Word.

And Isaiah 40 is... pointing to future literal events upon this earth...

Isa 19:23-25
23 In that day shall there be a highway out of Egypt to Assyria, and the Assyrian shall come into Egypt, and the Egyptian into Assyria, and the Egyptians shall serve with the Assyrians.
24 In that day shall Israel be the third with Egypt and with Assyria, even a blessing in the midst of the land:
25 Whom the LORD of hosts shall bless, saying, Blessed be Egypt my people, and Assyria the work of my hands, and Israel mine inheritance.
KJV

Christ's Kingdom today is here on earth in SPIRIT only, through His Church, and I don't mean buildings or cathedrals either. But His future Kingdom is to have a future literal, physical establishing here on earth when Jesus returns; that's when these literal events will start upon the earth. Both Revelation and Ezekiel reveal the return of God's River and the Tree of Life back to this earth, and that will be a literal event, just like it was in Genesis 2 with God's River flowing out of His Garden and feeding four other rivers upon this earth, which two of those rivers still exist on earth today.

If you don't believe the Zechariah 14:1-5 Scripture about Christ's feet touching down upon the Mount of Olives at His future coming, and that great valley formed there because of it, and those "living waters" then flowing from Jerusalem, on earth (per Ezekiel 47), then I must be in the wrong kind of Forum, because I don't have time to debate every Bible Scripture which men's traditions has turned into religious philosophy by wrongly converting literal Scripture events into allegories like corrupted ones like Origen and Clement of the school at Alexandria did, with their having been influenced by Gnosticism.

When Isaiah 40:4 says "Every valley shall be exalted, and every mountain and hill shall be made low...," that will be a literal event, linked to the day of Christ's future return. It is not simply a metaphor, which is how men's traditions treat most of Isaiah 40. They don't understand the power of God and what He is going to do with this earth in the future, just as many of them haven't understood what God did to this earth in the past, prior to this second world earth age we are in now.

I don't understand why people keep saying men's traditions and talk Jesus. Because I am certain that everybody or most people here have read the scripture.

The Traditions that men follow in the churches, are Traditions that are handed down by God.

It was God that told Solomon to build a temple worthy of him. God told David Solomon everybody that built anything they had to do with God. God was the one that orchestrated how the place of worship was to be built he's the one that talked about the ark, the priests, the clothing of the priest, the way the decorations are in the place of worship and so on.

So when we talk about traditions of men, when it's talking about the things of the Lord, your argument is with God not with man.

1 Cor 11:2

Paul is talking to the Corinthians saying " you have done well in remembering me so constantly and in maintaining the traditions just as I pass them on to you.

There are a number of other passages similar to this from Paul's writing talking about the traditions that have been handed down from God.

 

[Dave M]

The Traditions that men follow in the churches, are Traditions that are handed down by God.

Lots of mans traditions go against Gods word, such as calling a priest father, and the bible warns us of this, that;s why we have the word of God to rely on, not . For evil always can and does disguise itself in the form of goodness and a angel of light.

I see a lot of people thinking they know best and do not rely on scripture for spiritual matters but rely on feelings and experiences and traditions of men,

Mark 7:8-9​

You leave the commandment of God and hold to the tradition of men.” And he said to them, “You have a fine way of rejecting the commandment of God in order to establish your tradition!

Colossians 2:8​

See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the world, and not according to Christ.

Matthew 15:3​

He answered them, “And why do you break the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition?

 

[Brad Huber]

For those of you who find offense at priests being called a father, due to scripture, you had best think about the way it was meant. Its just a title of someone that is supposed to care about you both physically and spiritually. Protestants have titles galore as well. And if you should call no man father because scripture says so, that would mean that if any of you ever referred to your biological father as "father" then you break your own belief in scripture as you apply it to RC.