Thoughts on Job

[Bendito]

That's fine. But, don't deceive yourself that I am Biblically illiterate. In fact, if I was illiterate in these matters you would not refuse to discuss them. Because I do have a certain understanding of the Bible, is why you accuse me.

My guess is, if I was so ignorant, and you had a plethora of information on the subject, you would be willing to give it.

The bottom line is this, as I said, it doesn't matter who all God killed in the flood. He killed them all. Correct?

Quantrill

Sir. if you understood the bible you would not spout such foolishness as you do. You would actually know things, but all you know is what is taught in church. And that amounts to mostly myths and fairy tales. I'll give you this though...You're really very good at slinging insults to fill in the lack of fact.

 

[Quantrill]

Sir. if you understood the bible you would not spout such foolishness as you do. You would actually know things, but all you know is what is taught in church. And that amounts to mostly myths and fairy tales. I'll give you this though...You're really very good at slinging insults to fill in the lack of fact.

I didn't sling any insults. I made an observation of the accusation you made against me.

Be that as it may, don't you agree that whoever was killed in the flood, God killed them all?

You seem to throw this 'churchiantiy' or what is 'taught in church' accusation against those who disagree with you. Why is that? Do you not like the Church? Do you feel yourself above the teaching of the Church? What makes your understanding so superior?

Quantrill

 

[Bendito]

I didn't sling any insults. I made an observation of the accusation you made against me.

Be that as it may, don't you agree that whoever was killed in the flood, God killed them all?

You seem to throw this 'churchiantiy' or what is 'taught in church' accusation against those who disagree with you. Why is that? Do you not like the Church? Do you feel yourself above the teaching of the Church? What makes your understanding so superior?

Quantrill

You're saying that you accuse me of smoking something is not an insult...You've accused me of that three times so far in this thread....Ok. Not an insult.
I have no problem with the church....I do hate the spiritual junk food they, and you, share though. If the church taught WORD I could be totally content with it. So......Above the teaching? Above the myths and fairy tales, yes. Above the truth? No. Not ever. What makes my understanding superior is simply that I want the truth, even if it hurts. I'm not interested in feel good junk food. ¿entiende? Probablemente no.

 

[Quantrill]

You're saying that you accuse me of smoking something is not an insult...You've accused me of that three times so far in this thread....Ok. Not an insult.
I have no problem with the church....I do hate the spiritual junk food they, and you, share though. If the church taught WORD I could be totally content with it. So......Above the teaching? Above the myths and fairy tales, yes. Above the truth? No. Not ever. What makes my understanding superior is simply that I want the truth, even if it hurts. I'm not interested in feel good junk food. ¿entiende? Probablemente no.

Well, it was an observation.

You place your understanding as superior which is the problem. Yet, I haven't seen it. I have asked you, concerning the flood, that since it doesn't matter who was killed in the flood, God killed them all. Correct? Yet you ignore the question. Why? Where is that superior kowledge?

Chile con carne.

Quantrill

 

[Bendito]

As for the rest of my friends on this forum...Many have disagreed with me over the years and I'm pretty sure I've left you alive....You've learned from me and you've taught me. Simply because we gather here to learn and fellowship and not to fight. I appreciate that. Thank you.

 

[Christ4Ever]

I'm locking this thread for the moment.

I want you two @Bendito and @Quantrill to consider your Brotherhood in Christ Jesus and how you comport yourselves in open forum that is accessible to the unbeliever, and what that says about us all. All, because we are Brothers & Sisters in Christ Jesus, the Body of Christ, the Church, with Jesus as the Head, and here we are diminishing each other with words that are not meant to illicit any Scriptural instruction, but to heighten the disagreement you two have concerning a our perceptions on a Story that is History past. Not showing Grace, or Love, only word usage against each other reflecting Worldly behavior and not a Godly one. Not uplifting at all by professing believers!!!! Shame.

I'm locking this thread for 24, and with the hope that you will consider whether it is possible to come to an agreement by bashing each other, or better to disagree while still showering the Love of Christ to what I can clearly see even if apparently you both seem unable to at the moment, and that is two Brothers in Christ.

I love you both dearly, but this needs to stop
I'm truly begging you here and will be praying for you both.

Your Servant in Christ Jesus.
Moderator
Nick
<><

 

[Fragrant Grace]

Thank you brother Nick @Christ4Ever for allowing the thread some breathing space. I hope you dont mind me just adding a thought on the thread before you reopen it.


I have only skimmed through but was somewhat put off reading by the nature of some of the content.

So going back to basics the thread title is Thoughts on Job.....dear learned brothers on the thread I am simply sharing thoughts....


To me the beauty of the book can be summed up in one verse

For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that He shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:
Job19:26

Through all his trials, losses , fall and restoration Job had an absolute personal assurance of his Lord, his Redeemer.

This assurance was one thing the devil could never take away.

Later when humbled and silenced by the Lord....

I know that thou canst do every thing, and that no thought can be withholden from thee.
Who is he that hideth counsel without knowledge? therefore have I uttered that I understood not; things too wonderful for me, which I knew not.
Hear, I beseech thee, and I will speak: I will demand of thee, and declare thou unto me.
I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seeth thee.
Wherefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes.
Job 42:2-6

And following submission comes rich blessing and restoration

What a wonderful Gospel message is found in Job
What a glorious reminder that through earthly trials and tribulations we know that our Redeemer liveth.

All the finer points can be debated, argued, diagreed upon over and over again.......but dont miss out on the simple lessons and beauty of the book in doing so

 

[Christ4Ever]

Thank-you Sister @Fragrant Grace for you insightful and thoughtful reply.
Refocusing us to what is really important, which is our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ whose presence can be seen throughout the OT, including the Book of Job.
I truly hope this can be the impetus towards a more positive/fruitful discussion on the Book of Job.

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC
Nick
<><

 

[Bendito]

Thank you brother Nick @Christ4Ever for allowing the thread some breathing space. I hope you dont mind me just adding a thought on the thread before you reopen it.


I have only skimmed through but was somewhat put off reading by the nature of some of the content.

So going back to basics the thread title is Thoughts on Job.....dear learned brothers on the thread I am simply sharing thoughts....


To me the beauty of the book can be summed up in one verse

For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that He shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:
Job19:26

Through all his trials, losses , fall and restoration Job had an absolute personal assurance of his Lord, his Redeemer.

This assurance was one thing the devil could never take away.

Later when humbled and silenced by the Lord....

I know that thou canst do every thing, and that no thought can be withholden from thee.
Who is he that hideth counsel without knowledge? therefore have I uttered that I understood not; things too wonderful for me, which I knew not.
Hear, I beseech thee, and I will speak: I will demand of thee, and declare thou unto me.
I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seeth thee.
Wherefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes.
Job 42:2-6

And following submission comes rich blessing and restoration

What a wonderful Gospel message is found in Job
What a glorious reminder that through earthly trials and tribulations we know that our Redeemer liveth.

All the finer points can be debated, argued, diagreed upon over and over again.......but dont miss out on the simple lessons and beauty of the book in doing so

Again, Little Sister, I'm humbled by your gentle, graceful wisdom. Thank you, and hugs on you.

 

[Bendito]

Brother Nick, I put the answer you were looking for in a post in the Chat section. I named the thread. "Giants Again." Pretty original hey? You can move it here where you asked the question if you wish. then close the thread?

 

[Dovegiven]

Again, Little Sister, I'm humbled by your gentle, graceful wisdom. Thank you, and hugs on you.

:crying::grin:, LOVE must prevail.

 

[Christ4Ever]

Brother Nick, I put the answer you were looking for in a post in the Chat section. I named the thread. "Giants Again." Pretty original hey? You can move it here where you asked the question if you wish. then close the thread?

Dear Brother @Bendito
It might be better to keep it where it is, so it doesn't dilute this thread.
Thanks for the consideration brother, and I'll look into when I get a chance.

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC
Nick
<><

 

[Quantrill]

To me the beauty of the book can be summed up in one verse

For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that He shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:
Job19:26

Through all his trials, losses , fall and restoration Job had an absolute personal assurance of his Lord, his Redeemer.

(Job 19:25-26) is a great testimony from Job. But, where did he get this knowledge? He is speaking of the Second Coming of Christ and of his own resurrection. (Zech. 14:4) And in (Job 19:26), "in my flesh shall I see God". How did he know that? We are told that Enoch, the seventh from Adam, 'prophecied' of the second coming, making him a prophet. (Jude 14) But I don't recall Job being called a prophet. Where did he get this information from?

Perhaps passed down by word of mouth from Enoch the seventh from Adam? (Jude 1:14) But Enoch didn't say anything about the resurrection of the body.

Did you also notice (Job 19:23)? Job, who God said spoke of Him rightly, blessed and honored Job in his request during these severe trials. Job requests, "Oh that my words were now written! oh that they were printed in a book!"

And you and I are reading words as a result of this mans request. Because God honored him.

Quantrill

 

[Dovegiven]

(Job 19:25-26) is a great testimony from Job. But, where did he get this knowledge? He is speaking of the Second Coming of Christ and of his own resurrection. (Zech. 14:4) And in (Job 19:26), "in my flesh shall I see God". How did he know that? We are told that Enoch, the seventh from Adam, 'prophecied' of the second coming, making him a prophet. (Jude 14) But I don't recall Job being called a prophet. Where did he get this information from?

Perhaps passed down by word of mouth from Enoch the seventh from Adam? (Jude 1:14) But Enoch didn't say anything about the resurrection of the body.

Did you also notice (Job 19:23)? Job, who God said spoke of Him rightly, blessed and honored Job in his request during these severe trials. Job requests, "Oh that my words were now written! oh that they were printed in a book!"

And you and I are reading words as a result of this mans request. Because God honored him.

Quantrill

The testimony of Job ought to be sufficient for us to trust that God is well able and ready to bring us through the valley of the shadow of death, restoring us as much as we are willing to take care of. He got twice as many of everything, so had to have trusted shepherds, his army of servants fully restored.

We don't know how many people lived in Job's day who knew Adam and Eve and probably their children. It was likely everyone knew someone of close relative position, kind of like living in a small town in the USA, where "everyone knows everyone". They had knowledge of good and evil from the start, the extent of which perhaps we today have lost sight of some, replacing some good with the abundance of evil, taking on attitudes like the three friends of Job, even sounding "good and true". Our hope is grace makes up the different to spare in eternal value. I believe sin has so diluted the knowledge of God that we naturally find the revelations of Job are mysterious as to origin, some only verified by science recently, some partially explained by the apostles and whatever the Holy Spirit has revealed since their days.

How he got what he had isn't so much a deal as who he had as his only friend....God. Even his wife gave up, but not God. I have one true friend left besides my wife, a man I know and understand well, a person I will and have done whatever was needed. I am outliving my friends among men, but Jesus is always my friend and my savior, knows me, and did the ultimate of anything friend to friend, and to the whole world of those who should believe on Him.

When I study Job I am reminded of Jesus' earnest and mind-boggling, troublesome prayers in
Matthew 26:38-44 (KJV)
38 Then saith he unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death: tarry ye here, and watch with me.
39 And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.

Notice His first words, "O my Father". That's my model, my first recourse to dealing with my troubled soul.

40 And he cometh unto the disciples, and findeth them asleep, and saith unto Peter, What, could ye not watch with me one hour?
41 Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.
42 He went away again the second time, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if this cup may not pass away from me, except I drink it, thy will be done.
43 And he came and found them asleep again: for their eyes were heavy.
44 And he left them, and went away again, and prayed the third time, saying the same words.

He owed Job no less.

 

[Quantrill]

The testimony of Job ought to be sufficient for us to trust that God is well able and ready to bring us through the valley of the shadow of death, restoring us as much as we are willing to take care of. He got twice as many of everything, so had to have trusted shepherds, his army of servants fully restored.

We don't know how many people lived in Job's day who knew Adam and Eve and probably their children. It was likely everyone knew someone of close relative position, kind of like living in a small town in the USA, where "everyone knows everyone". They had knowledge of good and evil from the start, the extent of which perhaps we today have lost sight of some, replacing some good with the abundance of evil, taking on attitudes like the three friends of Job, even sounding "good and true". Our hope is grace makes up the different to spare in eternal value. I believe sin has so diluted the knowledge of God that we naturally find the revelations of Job are mysterious as to origin, some only verified by science recently, some partially explained by the apostles and whatever the Holy Spirit has revealed since their days.

How he got what he had isn't so much a deal as who he had as his only friend....God. Even his wife gave up, but not God. I have one true friend left besides my wife, a man I know and understand well, a person I will and have done whatever was needed. I am outliving my friends among men, but Jesus is always my friend and my savior, knows me, and did the ultimate of anything friend to friend, and to the whole world of those who should believe on Him.

When I study Job I am reminded of Jesus' earnest and mind-boggling, troublesome prayers in
Matthew 26:38-44 (KJV)
38 Then saith he unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death: tarry ye here, and watch with me.
39 And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.

Notice His first words, "O my Father". That's my model, my first recourse to dealing with my troubled soul.

40 And he cometh unto the disciples, and findeth them asleep, and saith unto Peter, What, could ye not watch with me one hour?
41 Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.
42 He went away again the second time, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if this cup may not pass away from me, except I drink it, thy will be done.
43 And he came and found them asleep again: for their eyes were heavy.
44 And he left them, and went away again, and prayed the third time, saying the same words.

He owed Job no less.

Indeed, there comes a time when it is too late to die an early death. And too late to make old friends.

Quantrill

 

[Quantrill]

It has already been stated that in the time of Job, there was no written revelation. There was no Israel, or the temple, or the tabernacle. But Job had a certain understanding of God that had no doubt been passed down from Adam and Enoch and so on. That understanding was very basic, yet sufficient for the time. But the understanding of the time did not provide an answer for the trials and sufferings Job was going through. Which is why God brought this upon Job.

There are interesting verses in (Job 38:31-32) where God is questioning Job concerning Job's questioning God. "Canst thou bind the sweet influences of Pleiades, or loose the bands of Orion? Canst thou bring forth Mazzaroth in his season? or canst thou guide Arcturus with his sons?

The Mazzaroth is the 12 signs of what we call the Zodiac. Orion and Pleiades and Arcturus are constellations and star groups that figure into the Zodiac. Remember, this is God speaking. He is saying that He will bring forth Mazzaroth in his season. In other words He will accomplish the Zodiac in the right time and he reminds Job that he has no ability to accomplish, change or alter this.

But God asks Job as though Job is aware of it. Else why would He ask him such. So, is it not possible that what we know as the Zodiac was an ancient revelation from God prior to the written revelation we have in the Bible? Joseph Seiss has a very good book concerning this called "The Gospel In The Stars".

Quantrill

 

[KingJ]

KingJ, the folks drowned in the flood were not "God's children". Not one. They were Satan's "children", via following him, rejecting Noah's God. Not every human is a child of God, but those adopted into the household of God through Jesus Christ are. God's family was aboard the Ark with doors closed to anyone suddenly wanting to be part of that family.

There were many children that drowned. They were not 'God's children', but they are still blameless children that were victims of their parents wickedness.

Where does scripture say animals go to Heaven? Did the children in Ai go to Heaven? I don't see that connection. Children follow their parents, the reason parents ought to sanctify them to the purposes of God. But when they sanctify them to evil, what..........

You need to re-read all scripture that says God is good and that God is not a fool. God loves His creation. All of it. He wills that none perish. Those that go to hell and do perish, do so by their own choice. They exercise their free will. Among His creation, only humans and angels have the knowledge of what is right and wrong Gen 3:22 and can choose to love what is wicked. That is the verdict John 3:19. Only they can perish. Unless you believe God is wicked. God is not wicked Psalm 136:1.

Where is it taught that God tests His children and makes them and their animals victims of His testing?

Please see post # 42 for scripture on testing.

Like examining a biopsied sample on a slide? The NT teaches me He knows His own already. There is no scripture to my knowledge saying God tested Job. He doesn't have to test anything like a laboratory researcher must investigate to know what is. God KNOWS. People have to examine the fruit to know the tree with certainty.

He knows His own ''already''. John 3:16 that ''whomsoever'' will. Rev 3:20 ''whoever'' opens the door. Note it does not say ''when Jack and Jill open the door''.

A discussion on true free will, will derail this thread. Please start a new one if you want to discuss further. Just know that God is truly impartial Acts 10:34. It is something we need to grasp. For Him to be impartial, true free will has to exist.

 

[Dovegiven]

There were many children that drowned. They were not 'God's children', but they are still blameless children that were victims of their parents wickedness.

You need to re-read all scripture that says God is good and that God is not a fool. God loves His creation. All of it. He wills that none perish. Those that go to hell and do perish, do so by their own choice. They exercise their free will. Among His creation, only humans and angels have the knowledge of what is right and wrong Gen 3:22 and can choose to love what is wicked. That is the verdict John 3:19. Only they can perish. Unless you believe God is wicked. God is not wicked Psalm 136:1.

Please see post # 42 for scripture on testing.


He knows His own ''already''. John 3:16 that ''whomsoever'' will. Rev 3:20 ''whoever'' opens the door. Note it does not say ''when Jack and Jill open the door''.

A discussion on true free will, will derail this thread. Please start a new one if you want to discuss further. Just know that God is truly impartial Acts 10:34. It is something we need to grasp. For Him to be impartial, true free will has to exist.

You self declare the status of the children in the Flood with no basis without contradicting the very definition of God saying "Good" over anything. I declare all of humanity left after Methuselah and others honoring God had their DNA corrupted by fallen angels, and the people of Ai were not really humans, the reason all inhabitants there had to be destroyed like a den of vipers. Only Noah and his immediate family entered the Ark, even if some of the corrupted helped in some way build the Ark, All others deserved immediate destruction. No scripture can defy that, so if you persist I will have to assume you are very deceived. All nature exhibits God's protection of His creation. Mutated species that prohibit reproduction of "kinds" are systematically eradicated by design. It takes an external force, such as by human intervention, to preserve condemned beings, animal, herb, or fungal, to survive. God intervened for the sake of His creation, choosing the good. He kept the pure humanity from interbreeding with the false until the Law forbad that, intercepting the disqualification of Jesus to save mankind.

 

[KingJ]

You self declare the status of the children in the Flood with no basis without contradicting the very definition of God saying "Good" over anything. I declare all of humanity left after Methuselah and others honoring God had their DNA corrupted by fallen angels, and the people of Ai were not really humans, the reason all inhabitants there had to be destroyed like a den of vipers. Only Noah and his immediate family entered the Ark, even if some of the corrupted helped in some way build the Ark, All others deserved immediate destruction. No scripture can defy that, so if you persist I will have to assume you are very deceived. All nature exhibits God's protection of His creation. Mutated species that prohibit reproduction of "kinds" are systematically eradicated by design. It takes an external force, such as by human intervention, to preserve condemned beings, animal, herb, or fungal, to survive. God intervened for the sake of His creation, choosing the good. He kept the pure humanity from interbreeding with the false until the Law forbad that, intercepting the disqualification of Jesus to save mankind.

I self declare? I feel you are just not grasping God, scripture and reality all around us.

God created earth for humans. Not fallen angels. God had a plan for humans. Not fallen angels. Not aliens. Not another breed of intelligent life.

Mankind is accountable for sin because mankind has high intelligence. We are able to grasp the difference between good and evil. So if giants / mutated species also had high intelligence, a good God would have to give them true free will.

You and Bendito do not realize that you both espouse a foolish and wicked God.

Think about what you are saying. A child from a human with angel dna. He / She has feelings emotions. A life they want to live. The ability to do good or bad. Yet, because they had angel dna, they are condemned. It is simply an epic fail at grasping a good God.

 

[Dovegiven]

I self declare? I feel you are just not grasping God, scripture and reality all around us.

God created earth for humans. Not fallen angels. God had a plan for humans. Not fallen angels. Not aliens. Not another breed of intelligent life.

Mankind is accountable for sin because mankind has high intelligence. We are able to grasp the difference between good and evil. So if giants / mutated species also had high intelligence, a good God would have to give them true free will.

You and Bendito do not realize that you both espouse a foolish and wicked God.

Think about what you are saying. A child from a human with angel dna. He / She has feelings emotions. A life they want to live. The ability to do good or bad. Yet, because they had angel dna, they are condemned. It is simply an epic fail at grasping a good God.

The Bible doesn't extend salvation in Christ to animals. He made creation to reproduce same kinds. If an evolutionist, then escape the false premise men and monkeys might mate. But we k[learn from the Bible demon spirits can inhabit a man or woman, doing terrible things, always making the affected human behave very unnaturally for the obvious reason. They don't need free will since demons prevent use of free will, but they need deliverance or leave them to perish. David defied the giant Goliath, gave him no choice as guided by God, told him he was going to kill him because he defied God, cut off his head, then kill all the men behind them. He did exactly that, with the first stone slung, and with the giant's sword, with a cowardly army behind him exercising "free will" to let a young boy save them. So much for free will for a creature doubtless oblivious to the things of God who probably would have preferred to live a long life. I wouldn't give "free will" so much wiggle room. That goes two ways, can bless or curse depending on which way it turns, if a human still has it in them. Can you see it is possible for a human, and certainly an angel, to lose the privilege of free will because of evil choices?

I wish every male had to have some military experience. Warriors have to learn to make hard choices for the enemy, lest the enemy take over your home and family. God gave that principle. The warrior prays for the enemy, then shoots or takes them captive them if they don't surrender. He takes their free will away for the purposes of God.

A fact is the Bible says the angels left their former estate, settled on earth. I agree that earth was not made for them, but they took it anyway. They had relations with the daughters of mankind. Maybe those women exercised their free will to allow those angels to do that, maybe for the power of having giants for sons. Nobody will know until we all get briefed by the Lord.