B-A-C
Loyal
Is there any part of the Bible where there weren't Jews present? Does that mean the whole Bible is just for Jews? (Many believe it is).
Tongues,Healings,Miracles - Are They Real Today?
- Thread starter TC4JC
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Is there any part of the Bible where there weren't Jews present? Does that mean the whole Bible is just for Jews? (Many believe it is).
Thanks for your question B-A-C, when considering what people would say we must always rely on the authority of Scripture, which is protestant in it's origin (Sola Scriptura). A careful study of the bible reveals consistently the purpose for these gifts and their uses, and that these purposes have been fulfilled as stated in my previous quote. Now concerning the reality that AOG claim to exercise these gifts biblically is a exaggerated claim. When one goes to these services they do not experience a biblical representation of tongues or miracles but even unbiblical counterfeits. I encourage you to study the Bible diligently with God's Holy Spirit and perhaps a sound biblical teacher in coming to a conclusion from a biblical standpoint on these issues. I also very strongly believe God heals people today miraculously because the bible reveals that God is able to do so, however i cannot conclude that these are gifts given to individuals to heal people today, consider 2 Tim 4:20? Why did Paul leave Philetus sick if he apparently had the power to heal? also Phil 2:25-27? Also concerning prophecy, the answer is no, prophecy is completed in the finished Word of God. Prophecy was a gift by which God the Holy Spirit superintended men to write the Word of God and to speak for Him and His purpose. God used men known as prophets to reveal Himself to mankind and their purpose is finished in the completion of scripture, that is why Paul said "...are built on the foundation of the Apostles and Prophets" eph 2:20 There office is fulfilled and now teachers, who teach the Word of God (prophets writings), have replaced that office to explain the message God has revealed about Himself in the Bible. Yes Godly wisdom is also needed because the Bible is the Wisdom of God and God commands everyone everywhere to repent and believe the gospel.
No this simply means that the gift of tongues were a sign to unbelieving Jews 1 Corinth 14:21. The bible is clearly not only for Jews Eph 2:11-22 Romans 1:16
B-A-C
Loyal
Where to begin
First of all it seems Philetus was healed.
Php 2:27; For indeed he was sick to the point of death, but God had mercy on him, and not on him only but also on me, so that I would not have sorrow upon sorrow.
How do you pick and choose which of the nine following gifts are still necessary, and which ones aren't?
It seems everyone is given at least one of the gifts.
1 Cor 12:6; There are varieties of effects, but the same God who works all things in all people.
1 Cor 12:7; But to each one is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good.
1 Cor 12:8; For to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, and to another the word of knowledge according to the same Spirit;
1 Cor 12:9; to another faith by the same Spirit, and to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit,
1 Cor 12:10; and to another the effecting of miracles, and to another prophecy, and to another the distinguishing of spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, and to another the interpretation of tongues.
How do you interpret Acts 2:17-22; were those the last days? Are or the last days yet to happen? How about Mark 16:17; ?
First of all it seems Philetus was healed.
Php 2:27; For indeed he was sick to the point of death, but God had mercy on him, and not on him only but also on me, so that I would not have sorrow upon sorrow.
How do you pick and choose which of the nine following gifts are still necessary, and which ones aren't?
It seems everyone is given at least one of the gifts.
1 Cor 12:6; There are varieties of effects, but the same God who works all things in all people.
1 Cor 12:7; But to each one is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good.
1 Cor 12:8; For to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, and to another the word of knowledge according to the same Spirit;
1 Cor 12:9; to another faith by the same Spirit, and to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit,
1 Cor 12:10; and to another the effecting of miracles, and to another prophecy, and to another the distinguishing of spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, and to another the interpretation of tongues.
How do you interpret Acts 2:17-22; were those the last days? Are or the last days yet to happen? How about Mark 16:17; ?
B-A-C
Loyal
And yet the unbelieving people here, were not all Jews.
Acts 2:7; They were amazed and astonished, saying, "Why, are not all these who are speaking Galileans?
Acts 2:8; "And how is it that we each hear them in our own language to which we were born?
Acts 2:9; "Parthians and Medes and Elamites, and residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia,
Acts 2:10; Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the districts of Libya around Cyrene, and visitors from Rome, both Jews and proselytes,
Acts 2:11; Cretans and Arabs--we hear them in our own tongues speaking of the mighty deeds of God."
Perhaps tongues were for people of other races as well.
The first time a group of Gentiles is mentioned receiving the Holy Spirit, he also speaks in tongues. ( Acts 10:45-47; )
In fact, every time it mentions anyone receiving the Holy Spirit after Jesus ascended, tongues are also mentioned.
Do you think the Corinthians themselves were Jews or Gentiles?
1 Cor 14:39; Therefore, my brethren, desire earnestly to prophesy, and do not forbid to speak in tongues.
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B-A-C
Loyal
Please note that when I say people have gifts of the "Holy Spirit", I in no way infer that the power comes from them. It is all God's power. Only that God
uses different people in different ways. Do you ever pray for people who are ill to get better? Why do you pray for them if it isn't necessary or doesn't
do any good anyway?
B-A-C
Loyal
Do you have any scriptures to back this claim up? Any verses that say the gifts of the Spirit have ended or stopped?
Travis
Active
I'm not a huge AOG fan. I'm not really a huge fan of any particular denomination for that matter.
That being said, I think it's really unfair to lump all AOG's together and say they all exercise the gifts of the spirit un-biblically. There are many different groups that consider themselves AOG that vary greatly in their spirituality. Just because 2 or 3 (or even 50) groups over there are way out of line, doesn't mean that the 1 over here is out of line too.
They read the same scriptures as you and me you know, and many of them take them quite seriously, specifically regarding how to operate in the gifts as an assembly.
Just saying,
Travis
B-A-C
Loyal
I don't agree with all their doctrines either, the only reason I mentioned them is because the question was asked "Where are the gifts today" and "why don't we see them anymore".
I could have included other charismatic denominations such as FourSquare or Vineyard, or Church of God, but AOG is the most prevalent.
Perhaps it's because people don't believe in them?
Matt 13:58; And He did not do many miracles there because of their unbelief.
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There seems to be a difference in types of tongues. I have come across a tongues that comes from the mind. In other words, the mind thinks "shakalashom" and the mouth speaks "shakalashom" and "gooblydegoo" and so on... and the person can not write a sentence while praying in 'tongues". Then you get the person that prays a language that is obviously supernatural and it gets intense but they can write a full letter to you while praying in tongues. Any comments?
B-A-C
Loyal
Acts 2:4; And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit was giving them utterance.
Acts 2:5; Now there were Jews living in Jerusalem, devout men from every nation under heaven.
Acts 2:6; And when this sound occurred, the crowd came together, and were bewildered because each one of them was hearing them speak in his own language.
Acts 2:7; They were amazed and astonished, saying, "Why, are not all these who are speaking Galileans?
Acts 2:8; "And how is it that we each hear them in our own language to which we were born?
Acts 2:9; "Parthians and Medes and Elamites, and residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia,
Acts 2:10; Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the districts of Libya around Cyrene, and visitors from Rome, both Jews and proselytes,
Acts 2:11; Cretans and Arabs--we hear them in our own tongues speaking of the mighty deeds of God."
1 Cor 14:14; For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful.
Dan 5:5; Suddenly the fingers of a man's hand emerged and began writing opposite the lampstand on the plaster of the wall of the king's palace, and the king saw the back of the hand that did the writing.
Dan 5:6; Then the king's face grew pale and his thoughts alarmed him, and his hip joints went slack and his knees began knocking together.
Dan 5:7; The king called aloud to bring in the conjurers, the Chaldeans and the diviners. The king spoke and said to the wise men of Babylon, "Any man who can read this inscription and explain its interpretation to me shall be clothed with purple and have a necklace of gold around his neck, and have authority as third ruler in the kingdom."
Dan 5:8; Then all the king's wise men came in, but they could not read the inscription or make known its interpretation to the king.
Dan 5:17; Then Daniel answered and said before the king, "Keep your gifts for yourself or give your rewards to someone else; however, I will read the inscription to the king and make the interpretation known to him.
Dan 5:24; "Then the hand was sent from Him and this inscription was written out.
Dan 5:25; "Now this is the inscription that was written out: 'MENE, MENE, TEKEL, UPHARSIN.'
Dan 5:26; "This is the interpretation of the message: 'MENE'--God has numbered your kingdom and put an end to it.
Dan 5:27; " 'TEKEL'--you have been weighed on the scales and found deficient.
Dan 5:28; " 'PERES'--your kingdom has been divided and given over to the Medes and Persians."
Dan 5:29; Then Belshazzar gave orders, and they clothed Daniel with purple and put a necklace of gold around his neck, and issued a proclamation concerning him that he now had authority as the third ruler in the kingdom.
Matt 13:13; "Therefore I speak to them in parables; because while seeing they do not see, and while hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.
Matt 13:14; "In their case the prophecy of Isaiah is being fulfilled, which says, 'YOU WILL KEEP ON HEARING, BUT WILL NOT UNDERSTAND; YOU WILL KEEP ON SEEING, BUT WILL NOT PERCEIVE;
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Thanks Travis for your response, I do agree with you that we ought not to target an entire denomination and mark them with unbiblical practices. Therefore i had no intention of doing that, instead i was simply stating the AOG's claim to exercise these particular gifts are unbiblical, which is a true statement. The reality is simply this, the gifts of miracles and tongues were "sign gifts" for that age to fulfill God's purposes at that time. Any people collectivley or individually that claim to have these gifts have never been able to represent a biblical expression of them publicly.
Thank you for your reply BAC, unfortuntely there was a misunderstanding here between parables and other languages, Christ spoke in Aramaic, which was the language of those who heard Him. Parables are a form of teaching that uses stories/experiences as a way to communicate spiritual truth often hidden from those who hear it. For example concerning Matt13:14 that you quoted, the isrealites understood the language of Christ just not the truth He was communicating.
Thank you BAC for your response, I do agree God healed Philetus, by which means i cannot assume or draw conclusions from the text, however i can conclude that Paul was sorrowful due to his dear friends condition. As I've said before we must not draw conclusions from scripture to force an interpretation. Also, i am not picking and choosing. We must remember when Paul wrote to the Corinth's he was sharing the gifts that were given by God altogether. This does not mean that these gifts are certain to persist throughout all ages which would be another assumption drawn from the text. Their absence is a clear indication from God of their limited necessity.
I have to get to work but i can quickly respond, i apologize for the limited response. However, there is a popular scripture for the ceasing of these gifts, 1 Cor 13:8. Yet more obvious is their purpose being fulfilled in scripture and having a understanding of why the gifts were given and how they were used is essential to properly understanding their significance in early church history and their aid in completing the purpose God had intended them for.
The degrees differ between Acts, Daniel and Matthew. In Acts it does have reference to 'languages'. So the first degree is "language". Daniel involves a "Spirit Word" being spoken by the Spirit of YHWH. His Language. Then Matthew speaks of 'parables' that the Christ, yet manifest Spirit of Christ, or Yeshuah Ha'Moshiah spoke.... that is the Word Himself.... parables so that the wise can be confounded and the simple can hear. This is combination between human language and spiritual language. The Word Himself used human language to convey spiritual things. NOW, if we all are 'born-again' and His Spirit quickens our spirit, does our spirit not speak a Spirit Language? Human language is human language, but spiritual language is spiritual language and the Spirit of Agape' has a voice beyond human language. So then if Agape' Himself provides the words so 'help' us in prayer, then why do we not have the faith that He will help us? I can speak in the Spirit. I speak in tongues. How do I know it is a supernatural gift? I can speak in tongues and write a letter to someone at the same time. The words do not come from my mind. They come from my spirit. So, the Word is a discerner of thoughts and a double edged sword that divides "soul" and "spirit". Why would I not trust that His Help comes to my spirit so that I can pray a perfect prayer?
RJ
Active
Every manner of spiritual gift is for the purpose of edifying the church. When you use tongues and you are not edifying the church, you are edifying yourself which is useless to the church.
B-A-C
Loyal
1 Cor 13:8; Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away.
So is love done away with? Is knowledge done away with?
1 Cor 13:10; but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away.
Has the perfect come yet? Has Christ reconciled the earth to Him yet?
RJ
Active
- I don't understand your " unless interpreted by another gift". There is only one gift that applies and that would be tongues. Tongues is of no use unless you have someone who has the gift of interpretating the tongue , in order, to edify the church.
- The mind has nothing to do with anything , unless it is demonic or you just have something wrong in your mind and you think it is truth.
- You personally have no ability to test spiritual truth, only the one who is suppossed to be in you can do that for you. You need to pray and ask him for truth, more than likely it will come to you through his written word.