Trinitarians Godheadians, Can Their Translations Defend The Trinity Doctrine Of Trinity Faith System

[lentz]

I'm sorry, I'm trying to bite my tongue, but there is nothing there to indicate a trinity in the fact that Father, son and Holy Spirit were all there when Jesus was baptized - nothing. Why wouldn't they be? And the 3 in1 scripture you lauded to, 1 John 5:7, is not in any manuscript before 1600 which makes it spurious/false.

You have got to be a liberal

 

[Butch5]

Lol. If not then what are they?

The Father and Son are named...

 

[lentz]

The Father and Son are named...

Christ was there. God spoke from heaven. The Spirit showed up and abode on him. Thats all three no matter how you want to interpret it

 

[Butch5]

Christ was there. God spoke from heaven. The Spirit showed up and abode on him. Thats all three no matter how you want to interpret it

But it doesn't say three persons. This argument is what is called, Begging the Question or Circular Reasoning. It's a logical fallacy. You see in this fallacy a person starts with a premise, there are three persons that are God and then sees the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit mentioned and assumes they are three persons. The passage doesn't state that. It's simply assumed from the premise.

 

[Curtis]

You're welcome to deny Scripture my friend.

John 16:25 (NKJV): 25 “These things I have spoken to you in figurative language; but the time is coming when I will no longer speak to you in figurative language, but I will tell you plainly about the Father.

Jesus said the Father was in Him, correct? How was the Father in Him?
Matthew 3:16–17 (KJV 1900): 16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: 17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

Joh 14:26 But the Comforter (Counselor, Helper, Intercessor, Advocate, Strengthener, Standby), the Holy Spirit, Whom the Father will send in My name [in My place, to represent Me and act on My behalf], He will teach you all things. And He will cause you to recall (will remind you of, bring to your remembrance) everything I have told you. (Amp)

The Father sends Who? Read it….. the Holy Spirit. Don’t you believe the simple words of God? How could anyone not understand this scripture?

 

[Butch5]

Joh 14:26 But the Comforter (Counselor, Helper, Intercessor, Advocate, Strengthener, Standby), the Holy Spirit, Whom the Father will send in My name [in My place, to represent Me and act on My behalf], He will teach you all things. And He will cause you to recall (will remind you of, bring to your remembrance) everything I have told you.

The Father sends Who? Read it….. the Holy Spirit. Don’t you believe the simple words of God? How could anyone not understand this scripture?

I do. How could I not understand the words of Scripture? I could ask the same thing. I've posted twice now the words of Jesus who said when He was speaking of the Comforter He was speaking figuratively of the Father. You've not addressed that

Are you familiar with presuppositions? They're beliefs we, "Bring to the text". We use these presuppositions to interpret the text. If we start with the belief that there are three persons, that belief will determine how we understand the text.

I understand the text just fine. However, I understand it differently than you do. The way I understand it fits perfectly with Jesus' statement about His use of figurative language about the Father. The three persons understanding contradicts what Jesus said about the Father. This disharmony indicates that there is an error somewhere in the equation. The way we know our understanding is correct is that everything harmonizes.

 

[Curtis]

We use these presuppositions to interpret the text. If we start with the belief that there are three persons, that belief will determine how we understand the text.

This is where you miss what the Holy Spirit is saying who is the believer's teacher. If you do not believe that the Holy Spirit teaching then everything you think is correct is wrong. I myself believe that God is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and these three are one God!
Your " presuppositions" have led you in the wrong direction.

 

[Butch5]

This is where you miss what the Holy Spirit is saying who is the believer's teacher. If you do not believe that the Holy Spirit teaching then everything you think is correct is wrong. I myself believe that God is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and these three are one God!
Your " presuppositions" have led you in the wrong direction.

Actually, it's the reverse. As I said, harmony is the evidence that one understands the Scriptures. Disharmony is an indication of error. We can see that your belief wasn't given to you by the Holy Spirit. We know because Scriputre tells us that God doesn't lie. The Scriptures flatly refute the three persons doctrine. Since God doesn't lie, the doctrine didn't come from God, thus it didn't come from the Holy Spirit. That begs the question, where did it come from? Is it from "another" Spirit? Since it didn't come from God, you must have learned it somewhere else, probably another Christian.

 

[Butch5]

Joh 14:26 But the Comforter (Counselor, Helper, Intercessor, Advocate, Strengthener, Standby), the Holy Spirit, Whom the Father will send in My name [in My place, to represent Me and act on My behalf], He will teach you all things. And He will cause you to recall (will remind you of, bring to your remembrance) everything I have told you. (Amp)

The Father sends Who? Read it….. the Holy Spirit. Don’t you believe the simple words of God? How could anyone not understand this scripture?

The Father sends the Holy Breath. Why would a person be called breath?

You see, the Greek word, pneuma, literally means wind or breath. When it is translated Spirit it is being used as a figure of speech.

 

[Curtis]

The Father sends the Holy Breath. Why would a person be called breath?

You see, the Greek word, pneuma, literally means wind or breath. When it is translated Spirit it is being used as a figure of speech.

Act 5:3 Then Peter said, “Ananias, why have you let Satan fill your heart? You lied to the Holy Spirit, and you kept some of the money for yourself.
Act 5:4 The property was yours to sell or not sell, as you wished. And after selling it, the money was also yours to give away. How could you do a thing like this? You weren’t lying to us but to God!”

Can a person lie to the holy breath? Nope, but a person can lie to the Holy Spirit who himself is called God!

 

[Butch5]

Act 5:3 Then Peter said, “Ananias, why have you let Satan fill your heart? You lied to the Holy Spirit, and you kept some of the money for yourself.
Act 5:4 The property was yours to sell or not sell, as you wished. And after selling it, the money was also yours to give away. How could you do a thing like this? You weren’t lying to us but to God!”

Can a person lie to the holy breath? Nope, but a person can lie to the Holy Spirit who himself is called God!

A person can lie to Father.

You're not addressing any of the problems presented by your understanding. You're jumping from one passage to the next trying to reason away the problems. That's not how we come to the truth. That's simply ignoring Scripture.

 

[Curtis]

A person can lie to Father.

You're not addressing any of the problems presented by your understanding. You're jumping from one passage to the next trying to reason away the problems. That's not how we come to the truth. That's simply ignoring Scripture.

Sorry, I can not help you. Hopefully, someday you might discover the error of your belief system.

 

[Butch5]

Sorry, I can not help you. Hopefully, someday you might discover the error of your belief system.

If I'm in error please show how. I've already shown that Jesus said He was speaking figuratively of the Father. The Scriotures flatly refute your position. It's your argument that runs afoul of both Jesus' words and thr Scriptures. How is it that I'm the one that's wrong.

Here's something else to think about. The Jews knew all about God's Breath or Spirit. How come they didn't believe they were two persons? Moses spoke with God and had God's Breath or Spirit on him. Why didn't He believe they were two persons?

Numbers 11:17–22 (KJV 1900): 17 And I will come down and talk with thee there: and I will take of the spirit which is upon thee, and will put it upon them; and they shall bear the burden of the people with thee, that thou bear it not thyself alone. 18 And say thou unto the people, Sanctify yourselves against to morrow, and ye shall eat flesh: for ye have wept in the ears of the Lord, saying, Who shall give us flesh to eat? for it was well with us in Egypt: therefore the Lord will give you flesh, and ye shall eat. 19 Ye shall not eat one day, nor two days, nor five days, neither ten days, nor twenty days; 20 But even a whole month, until it come out at your nostrils, and it be loathsome unto you: because that ye have despised the Lord which is among you, and have wept before him, saying, Why came we forth out of Egypt? 21 And Moses said, The people, among whom I am, are six hundred thousand footmen; and thou hast said, I will give them flesh, that they may eat a whole month. Numbers. 22 Shall the flocks and the herds be slain for them, to suffice them? or shall all the fish of the sea be gathered together for them, to suffice them? 23 And the Lord said unto Moses, Is the Lord’s hand waxed short? thou shalt see now whether my word shall come to pass unto thee or not. 24 And Moses went out, and told the people the words of the Lord, and gathered the seventy men of the elders of the people, and set them round about the tabernacle. 25 And the Lord came down in a cloud, and spake unto him, and took of the spirit that was upon him, and gave it unto the seventy elders: and it came to pass, that, when the spirit rested upon them, they prophesied, and did not cease.

God took some of the breath that was on Moses and divided it up among the 70 elders. Would you suggest that God took the third person and cut him up into 71 parts and put one on each of the elders? How does that work?

 

[Butch5]

.

 

[Searchingtoo]

You have got to be a liberal

I'm as conservative as you can possibly get!

 

[Searchingtoo]

Christ was there. God spoke from heaven. The Spirit showed up and abode on him. Thats all three no matter how you want to interpret it

Just because the three were there means nothing and has nothing to do with them all being God as you suggest.

 

[lentz]

Just because the three were there means nothing and has nothing to do with them all being God as you suggest.

I think John 1 disagrees with you.
Seperate but same.

 

[B-A-C]

Gen 1:1; In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

John 1:3; All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.

Everything was created by God, everything was created by Jesus... therefore Jesus must be...

Col 1:16; For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him.
Col 1:17; He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.

Heb 1:8; But of the Son He says, "YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER, AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM.
Heb 1:9; "YOU HAVE LOVED RIGHTEOUSNESS AND HATED LAWLESSNESS; THEREFORE GOD, YOUR GOD, HAS ANOINTED YOU WITH THE OIL OF GLADNESS ABOVE YOUR COMPANIONS."

Col 2:9; For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form,

Php 2:6; who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be held onto tightly,
Php 2:7; but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.

Gen 1:26; Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth."

There are more, but here is a start.

 

[Searchingtoo]

Gen 1:1; In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

John 1:3; All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.

Everything was created by God, everything was created by Jesus... therefore Jesus must be...

Col 1:16; For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him.
Col 1:17; He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.

Heb 1:8; But of the Son He says, "YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER, AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM.
Heb 1:9; "YOU HAVE LOVED RIGHTEOUSNESS AND HATED LAWLESSNESS; THEREFORE GOD, YOUR GOD, HAS ANOINTED YOU WITH THE OIL OF GLADNESS ABOVE YOUR COMPANIONS."

Col 2:9; For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form,

Php 2:6; who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be held onto tightly,
Php 2:7; but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.

Gen 1:26; Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth."

There are more, but here is a start.

I've refuted most of these at least 3 times on this board and I'm not going to do it again. If you really want the truth look them up yourself. Already got booted off here once for doing just that. Seems you are not allowed to post scriptures that disprove the trinity. If you care to email me privately I'll gladly have this conversation with you. Looking forward to it. (pemckeejr@aol.com)

 

[Searchingtoo]

I think John 1 disagrees with you.
Seperate but same.

John 1:1 and the Coptic Versions